Buick LaCrosse

brood1213 · April 2005

Front wheel drive with traction control does 85% what all wheel drive can do. How many AWD Camry's and Accords are sold? With GM making Stabilitrak standard in the near future there is no need for AWD. Pontiac and Buick are not in trouble. It was the press putting spin on words. The Lacrosse in March sold more than the century and regal last year in the month. If any brand is in trouble it is Saab.
The Vibe outsells the Toyota Matrix, Solstice ordering is already almost filled up, going to have 8 g6 models. Yes they had a bad month in feb when all the rumors started but March sales were up 34% over Feb.

vanman1 · April 2005

It's a waste unless you live in a rural snow belt area. I live in the Toronto area which gets plenty of snow in the winter but have never had issues with FWD cars getting stuck or sliding. If I bought an SUV, I'd also get a FWD, saves gas and money on MSRP.

verdi942 · April 2005

that LaCrosse outsold Century and Regal's numbers for March, even if March '04 was down from the year before.....

1487 · April 2005

To suggest Buick and Pontiac are in trouble because their cars don't offer AWD is ridiculous. The most successful midsize sedans do not offer AWD and it is a pointless option for most drivers. Before the 500 came out no one was saying that AWD was a must have option. It's funny how no one things the Accord, camry or Sonata need AWD but all GM sedans are expected to have it. The only automaker who has been on top of AWD in this segment is Suburu and I dont think the Legacy has ever come close to matching the sales of the Camry, Malibu, Impala or Accord. The Lacrosse is not struggling due to lack of AWD.

imidazol97 · April 2005

>With GM making Stabilitrak standard

Stabilitrak doesn't have anything to do with the rear wheels being added to give AWD. Was that what you meant or do I misunderstand.

Stabilitrak (03 LeSabre version, I caught in an article there are other versions) tries to keep the car from losing control into a skid by judiciously applying the appropriate brakes to help keep from skidding or spinning, but that has to be at lose of ability to turn as sharply as driver may be intending to avoid something... but at the least the car may be under 'control' as the accident continues

.

62vetteefp · April 2005

couple of reasons for AWD:
One is to be able to go thru deep snow using all 4 tires to push you through.

Another is if one, two or three tires are on a slippery surface (ice) the tires that still have some traction can get/keep you going.

Another is to increase handling by applying the right force at the right wheel as you do a manuever.

Stabilitrac will help in situation #1 and #2 and will do better than #3 due to use of yaw sensors, braking and computerized control of all 4 tires. AWD just is not that smart.

Stabilitrac will also greatly increase vehicle handling. Very few drivers will be able to handle a vehicle in various driving conditions as well as Stabilitrac. It is an unbelievable safety feature. It will be a much bigger jump in safety than ABS was.

dan165 · April 2005

Saw that LaCrosse numbers were up big. It's great value at the low end and with incentives and a much better car, I'm not surprised it's catching on. Some people still love to see GM fail and after 3 months of sales start calling it a flop. LaCrosse should EASILY out sell Century/Regal by year end.

venus537 · April 2005

it's not shocking to me where the lacrosse placed among these cars. but it's expected since the media is biased against older designs, has a lovefest for toyota and of course they absolutely hate GM. couldn't possibly be because the car isn't exactly a standout.

it was probably not fair to knock the car for its interior space - i've always considered the lacrosse as mid size, not full size. but no matter, there are more appealing cars available in the mid size category too.

since i don't see hordes of peoples leaving their regals and centurys for a product outside of GM, sales should be fine in the short term. but one has to wonder about the long term.

62vetteefp · April 2005

over 40% of sales are from outside Buick

gotenks243 · April 2005

"I can't see the extra cost of AWD along with the maintenance, failures, gas mileage penalty, and ? for a small benefit in traction in snow in Central Ohio. "

Maintenance? Failures? These things really aren't an issue with modern all wheel drive machines. Do you buy cars without power windows because there's an off-chance the motors could fail? At least with manual windows you always know you can crank it up or down by hand, right?

Does that notion seem a little silly to you? The failure of an all wheel drive system needn't be feared any more than that, really. And even if the Haldex awd stopped working right on a Ford Five Hundred, the system would basically default to front wheel drive and you'd still be able to drive normally. Same for a Subaru.

Before I lived in Columbus, I had an acquaintance from there, and happened to recommend a Subaru to him as he was looking for a new car. His response was "Why do I need AWD?" I simply asked him "Does it rain in Columbus?"

I've never really understood this assumption that all wheel drive is only useful in snow. It's on all year round and provides extra traction all year round, including once the snow tires come off. If you've never driven an all wheel drive car on a dirt road, in the rain, or better yet on a dirt road in the rain, you have no idea of the benefits over a two wheel drive car.

Good tires too can make a difference in the wet on any car, but make no mistake, there are people who "know" awd that will swear by it on any future car they buy. For these people, it would be nice if the Lacrosse offered this feature. It's the type of thing that will get new people to consider a Buick and could help inject life into the brand, even if the Buick drivers of 10-20 years couldn't care less.

Mike

imidazol97 · April 2005

Each to his own opinion. Thanks.

vanman1 · April 2005

I could easily see a Camry (especially a 4 cyl) owner test a base CX and realize that for about the same money (maybe less with incentives) he or she could be driving a nice 6 cyl LaCrosse. With a very nice interior and quality to match, there is little doubt the LaCrosse will win over some new to GM buyers, could never say that about the car it replaced, especially the Century.

1487 · April 2005

after six months or so I dont see how the car can be considered a poor performer. I think the biggest problem with this car has been the pricing. I dont think anyone who is objective can say this car looks worse, inside or out, than any camry or accord. I find it funny that almost every review I have seen on this car has comments about the fake looking wood when every car in this price range has faux wood. In fact, I think the Lacrosse has rather nice looking faux wood. There is an undeniable double standard when it comes to rating american cars. I will say the car can be knocked for having a 4 speed auto or being overpriced. But in terms of styling and quality it is very competitive.

imidazol97 · April 2005

>I will say the car can be knocked for having a 4 speed auto

On that point I disagree. The 4-speed auto trans in our Buicks has been perfected matched to the performance of the engine giving a very capable car. Five speeds aren't needed, especially if they mean a higher cost or higher failure rate in the transmission over 150K. I saw several Mercedes with 4-matic on their trunk lid. Must have been okay for a 320...

alpha01 · April 2005

Um... 4matic means its an AWD model. And its actually not good enough for Mercedes, as all Mercedes models use at least 5 forward speeds, with the majority that are coupled to newer engines using 7.

~alpha

mrrogers · April 2005

People bad mouth the LaCrosse by saying it does not have the features of a "real" luxury car like the Lexus ES330. The Lexus has the dual overhead cam engine and the five speed automatic. The LaCrosse CXL must make due with an overhead valve engine and a four speed automatic. Funny thing is that the ES330 mileage is 21 city/ 29 highway, and the LaCrosse CXL comes in at 20 city/29 highway. Not much difference. The Buick four speed is much smoother. The Lexus five speed loves to upshift, but hates to downshift. You can minimize the problem by driving in 4th or 3rd gear in city driving, but why should you have to?
The Lexus has a cam belt that must be changed at regular intervals. If the cambelt breaks, the valves contact the pistons. The LaCrosse CXL has a chain to drive the camshaft. I have never heard of a chain failing. The LaCrosse has a light to tell you when to change your oil. I have never heard of a 3800 GM V6 having sludge problems. The ES330 has no light to tell you when to change your oil. They have had some sludge problems. Toyota has tried to tell more owners that they need to change their oil more often per the severe maintenance intervals rather than the longer standard intervals.
Mrs. Rogers drove the ES330, LaCrosse CXL, and Lexus RX330 for 24 hour test drives, and she bought the LaCrosse. The car was deliveried in January, and she loves it. She thanks me for insisting that she drive all three cars, because now she has no doubt that she made the right choice.

alpha01 · April 2005

The 3.3L in the ES330 has not had a sludge problem, that was the 3.0L engine. The 3.3 is based on that engine, but they are fairly different. The LaCrosse CXL doesnt do much worse in EPA MPG than the ES330, but it is handicapped by 25 fewer horses, and according to Consumer Reports, needs 1.1 seconds longer to hit 60 than does the ES330. But then of course, CR must be anti-American cars, correct? (They also observed real-world fuel economy higher by 3 MPG in the ES330). The LaCrosse CXL does not offer stabilty control, and ABS isnt even standard (on a car with a base price of $26K). The LaCrosse does not offer side impact airbags that protect the thorax in ANY trim level. The LaCrosse has significantly lower resale value than the ES, a shoter warranty, and a more limited roadside assistance program. Since we're pointing out differences....

I'm certainly not saying that the ES is the car for everyone. But I am saying that simply because the LaCrosse was the car for Mrs. Rogers (must we call her this? Is she 85?) doesnt mean that its necessarily a better car than the ES. [Edmunds.com's test has shown that the LaCrosse doesnt really compete well in its own class, never mind that of the near-luxury makes]

~alpha

62vetteefp · April 2005

I have not compared the ES330 to the CXS in about a year but when I did I could not touch a ES330 for under $35000 and some were close to $40,000 ( those with the in dash map were more). I visited a number of dealers in the detroit area. I cannot see how they can be compared. I think you can get a loaded CXS for close to $30,000 with dealer dealing and incentives. That is a $5000 difference and I think the CXS had a number of features you could not get on the Lexus like back up sensors, remote start. Of course the Lexus had a nicer interior ( but not as much difference as I expected) and a 5 speed.

Am I wrong or is this a Detroit area thing? (no employee discount on either) Seems like the pricing was closer to a Camry XLE.

307web · April 2005

The ES330 may not be selling for less than invoice minus a $2000 rebate like some cars, but they are discounted enough in many areas now that you can certainly get into one for well under $35,000.
Full base MSRP is under $33,000 before options with no discount at all. After discounts, you could get some nice options and still pay little more than that and maybe less.
With it's good resale value, there are also decent leases available on the ES330.

mrrogers · April 2005

Lexus has never really said what changes they made to eliminate the sludge problem. Maybe their lawyers won't let them for fear of a costly and image damaging recall. I read that a larger hose was installed in the PVC system, but that hardly seems significant. The reason I ask is that I find it curious that the new Avalon has an engine based on the Four Runner V6, not the 3.3 engine in the ES330 and the Camry. Perhaps Lexus and Toyota will phase out the 3.3 because the oil gel problem can not be designed out? Just a thought.

imidazol97 · April 2005

>Um...

What is the "Um" at the beginning of your statement for?

As to Mercedes having 5 or 7 or 9 speeds, that's not really germane to the adequacy of the T65E four-speed. In my cars it is a perfect match for the engine's broad range of torque and shifts smoothly and doesn't fail early in life as some other company's trannies seem to do.

62vetteefp · April 2005

Did they reduce the MSRP on the ES330 from the ES300? Around here I know that with dealer "required" add ons such as chrome wheels you could not touch one for under $35000. I need to visit a Lexus dealer.

vanman1 · April 2005

I'd rather have a good 4 speed auto than a crappy 5 speed. At least I know the GM 4 speed will run well and last.

I still think this car is a great value on the low end and even at the high end is not that bad once you factor in incentives now in place. I just wish GM would MSRP cars closer to transaction prices and loose the "incentive pads".

fredvh · April 2005

You are right. At least here in the midwest you cannot find an ES330 for under 35k. They all come over 35k MSRP. Technically you could order one but it would probably take 2 months or more.

alpha01 · April 2005

There have been no reports of sludging in the 3.3L Toyota engine to date. That engine is primarily a stop-gap measure that Toyota used to power its increasingly larger offerings until the new engine family that started with the 4Runner's high torque, low-rev 4.0L V6 could be fully developed. The 4Runner's engine family, as we've seen, has already been introduced in 3.5L form in the 280 horse new Avalon, as well as 3.0L form, in the 245 horse Lexus GS300. The new Lexus IS will also feature a 2.5L variant producing about 205 horses, as well as a retuned 3.5L producing 300+. Belief is that the 3.3L will be slowly phased out, first with the next generation Lexus ES to debut in Spring 2006. Even though the architecture of the 3.3L dates back to the early 90s, it is still quite a good deal more refined (and powerful) than the normally aspirated GM 3800, which dates back to 1962, I believe?.

Really, GM's 3.6L DOHC is a spectacular engine, and I stongly feel that had GM been able to provide this motor in the LaCrosse CXL (the volume selling model), the press and consumers might be telling a different story. However, GM sealed its own fate by having the CXL range in price from 26-31K and not offering that powerplant. Similarly, the new Lucerne should have the 3.6L as its base, and not a 195hp variant of the 3800 as its standard- the rest of the car LOOKS phenomenal, it was a pleasure to view at the New York Auto Show.

To be clear, I think the LaCrosse is a good car with strong potential. However, GM betrayed the design with a poor choice of base engine (and restricting the better engine as optional only on the top model), not offering side thorax bags, choosing style over function with regards to rear seat headroom, and not offering Navagation. The biggest offense, though, is the incredibly ambitious pricing scheme that demands $26K MSRP on a volume selling model with ABS even standard. Naturally, this will result in high rebates, and poorer resale values. Similarly, the ES330 is far from perfect, and that otherwise excellent vehicle (with perhaps the best sub 40 grand interior in the industry) is let down by a dumpy transmission that doesnt think quickly enough in harder throttle applications, as well being suspended just a little too softly.

imidazol97- "Um" is a vocalized pause that simply means I was trying to think what to say. I was going to use the old "When you ASSUME, you make an..." saying, since assume is what you did regarding the Benz transmissions. However, I didnt use that saying, as I thought it might be considered rude.

~alpha

307web · April 2005

They do not sell for full MSRP anymore. You probably are not going to see an ES330 on a lot with zero options, but even if the sticker says over $35,000 with options, they are available for less.
You can can always buy from another dealer if your local dealer says they won't discount.
Check Carsdirect.com for prices in different areas and even other states if there is only one dealer in your area.

imidazol97 · April 2005

>I was going to use the old "When you ASSUME, you make an..." saying, since assume is what you did regarding the Benz transmissions. However, I didnt use that saying, as I thought it might be considered rude.

Looks to me like it served the same purpose.

62vetteefp · April 2005

"I stongly feel that had GM been able to provide this motor in the LaCrosse CXL (the volume selling model), the press and consumers might be telling a different story"

I do not understand the need for the 3.6 in the CXL.

The CXS is a CXL with the 3.6L engine. Does add needed 17" wheels/tires/susp upgrades, dual exhaust and foglamps. Oh yea includes every ones desired ABS. The CXL is higher volume because of its price point and, as can be read above, many buyers appreciaton of the 3.8L.

You will see in the future that side air bags will start being replaced by the new lower reaching curtain air bags except on the very expensive vehicles.

Navigation is still too expensive ($1500) and the market is showing it. The Camry offers it but it is running at less than 2% penetration. I am sure it is running higher on the ES330 but there goes your price over $38000. Most of the public do not feel they need it especially at the price it is being offered at. If it ever gets down to $500 then it will sell.

bigdaddycoats · April 2005

Did he really drive a LaCrosse??? Maybe GM paid him some big $$$$$$.

Just kidding. That is by far the best review I have seen for the LaCrosse. My brother has a 4 cylinder Camry and I never thought it was soo great. Very bland and boring.

vanman1 · April 2005

ABS should be standard on ALL Buicks. The Rendezvous base is also missing ABS. For near LUX, there is no excuse for that, I agree.

alpha01 · April 2005

Thats a great review of the LaCrosse CX vs Camry LE V6.Did it appear in Automobile magazine? If not, where?

Two points, re: the Camry vs. LaCrosse- 1) the Camry has 12-15 months of life left, where as the LaCrosse has what? 48-60? 2) Although the 5 speed auto and ABS were mentioned, the Camry LE V6 has several other items of significance standard that the LaCrosse doesnt. Among them: Split folding rear seat, 10 way power adjustable drivers seat, alloy wheels, steering wheel audio controls, and electroluminescent instrumentation. Buick does provide a telescopic steering wheel, however.

Also, you state: "You will see in the future that side air bags will start being replaced by the new lower reaching curtain air bags except on the very expensive vehicles." I dont think this is true, what evidence do you have to point toward this? I feel that lower-reaching curtains may materialize, but they'd have to go down to the bottom seat cushion to afford protection to the thorax/pelvis that is left completely exposed by the Buick's setup. The vehicles that score the best in the IIHS testing typically feature a seat-mounted bag as well as a head curtain.

~alpha

pat · April 2005

Due to copyright issues, we can't just copy and paste articles from other sites. I've asked the poster to post a link to it instead ...

62vetteefp · April 2005

near lux is not $23000.

About 5 years ago ABS was standard on just about every GM car including the Cavalier. Someone was hired in and said GM cars have to much content compared to the competition (was true). Huge studies were made and content was taken out. At that time the Japanese (Camry, Accord, etc.) had ABS as optional only. Also southern climates w/o snow seemed to not want to buy the ABS. ABS was then made optional.

62vetteefp · April 2005

Sorry, came in an internal memo. No link. Maybe it was made up!!! Just kidding.

pat · April 2005

Here, I think this is it: http://carreviewsonline.auto123.com/en/info/roadtest/view.spy?make=Buick&artid=32294

It's amazing what Google can do! :0)

alpha01 · April 2005

62vetteefp · April 2005

"Buick LaCrosse: Vying for Import Buyers and Measuring Up to the Task.
Automobile"

Yes, everyone is waiting for the new Camry. I will not be surprised if they put some personality into it. No doubt it will be quite the contender.

You are right with the content, but if you were to do a content to content price comparison pricing would be surprising close. Most of the items you mentioned are available on the LaCrosse, just packaged differently.

On the airbags I can only reference what internal safety experts, and this is their job, tell us. I cannot any longer check what vehicles have what type of airbags but those with both the SIAB and curtain may not have the lower coverage curtains.

vanman1 · April 2005

"Yes, everyone is waiting for the new Camry. I will not be surprised if they put some personality into it".

They said this new Camry was suppose to have personality. I've never driven a duller midsize car. Aside from extreme Toyota loyalists, I doubt anyone is "waiting" for the new Camry".

johnclineii · April 2005

vanman1 said in part:

**Aside from extreme Toyota loyalists, I doubt anyone is "waiting" for the new Camry".***

Oh, I imagine the Toyota dealers are, and with great anticipation. Would that Buick dealers were as excited about getting the Lucerne (or were about the LaCrosse).

62vetteefp · April 2005

Oh, they are excited. They were also excited for the LaCrosse. All the ones that saw it before the public loved it. Also no new cars for 5 years makes anybody excited.

The LaCrosse is a good looking car. Just is not over the top like the 300 is. The mid size market big sellers are conservative (camry, Taurus/500, accord) as are most of the buyers. It is a conservative design that will sell well. (outsold total Century and Regal retail sales from a year ago in March).

Chrysler has always had more over the top styling due to its smaller, more niche like volumes. The "semi" looking Dodge ram when it came out was one of those love it or hate it designs. Same with the PT Cruiser.

vanman1 · April 2005

Any dealer would be excited to get any new model that could boost sales. I'm talking about customers and the people I know with Camrys, Tauruses and other similar cars aren't generally car loving people. Cars are appliances to them just like the blender.

johnclineii · April 2005

this article, near the end, LaCrosses are already piling up on dealer lots.

http://www.fortwayne.com/mld/journalgazette/business/11324401.htm

Separately, GM recently increased incentives on virtually every car it sells in the USA another $1000.

brood1213 · April 2005

Actually incentives went down from last month. The LaCrosse has a total of $1500 in incentives(not including incentives that you have to qualify for such as Olds loyalty, dream on incentive etc..). They just added more money to the bonus cash then the regular rebate of $500. The Century last month could have a total of $5500(rebate,bonus cash, March Madness)This month only has a total of $3500. The Lacrosse last month had a $500 bonus cash with 1 percent financing for 60 months this month you can take $1000 bonus cash and 2.9% financing for 60 months. The regular rebate was $1000 last month with $500 bonus cash. Increased incentives? Just more like moved money around to change the programs enough so they do not sound the same. :P

verdi942 · April 2005

That article referred to a March 1 report; wasn't March itself a much better month? Anyway, much more troubling were the claims [facts?] that GM is top-heavy in management [while they moan in public about health costs], nowhere near the curve on hybrids, AWD and other popular features AND, nuttiest of all, is ready to hit the market with yet more large SUV's! All the while reallocating resources AWAY from the Zeta anti 300/500 platform! Now, I know that in the past ALL gasoline crises have gone away, drowned in oceans of cheap gas [I remember $.86 regular just five years ago!]. But it makes you wonder if these guys know what they're doing, doesn't it, when virtually every current hot product is coming from some other manufacturer?

vanman1 · April 2005

The LaCrosse sold more in March than the Century/Regal did the year before. Sales are ramping up but it did get off to a slow start as do most GM offerings.

alpha01 · April 2005

Too funny... you act as if LaCrosse owners are enthuiasts or something of significance compared to the owners of Camcords and Tauruses, who treat cars like appliances.

It seems, in general, that you have a hard time accepting that most of GMs offerings are not at the top of their classes. The LaCrosse is a good car with even better potential but GM cant realize it because of operating inefficiencies due to legacy costs, excessive brands, etc. The bottom line is that vehicles like this one dont move off of the lots without significantly more incentives than average because they simply arent great cars. They are good cars. Cars that top the segment in consumer and enthusiast appeal (think new Ody, 04 Sienna, Chrysler 300, Avalon, Mustang, Prius, TL, etc....) dont need the cash in the trunk that GM's average offerings do. GM, of course, knows this, and thats why the MSRPs on the LaCrosse are so high. (I think its funny that GM even slashed the stickers on its midsize SUVs by $1500-$2000 just to keep them in line with the competition, while still offering only slightly lower rebates).

Please don't think I'm anti-GM. Im truly impressed by Cadillac, and the newer designs are better. But there was a lot of talk about what this vehicle and the G6 would be and do for the company, and it hasnt really happened.

If GM is smart, they had better be pay attention to Hyundai, whose next Sonata will offer everything the LaCrosse CXS does.... for about $7 grand less (thats being conservative).

~alpha

62vetteefp · April 2005

Agree completely that those cars are just transportation to most folks.

62vetteefp · April 2005

Yes, Hyundai and all the other Koreans will be a problem to all current sellers of cars in the US. They are able to under price due to lower cost. Just like cotton socks and almost everything else that was made in this country we will not be able to compete and all manufacturing will go out of business.

62vetteefp · April 2005

OK, lets talk G6 since the press "say" its a failure and I have actual data.

G6 outsold the "sucessful" 500 for March.

G6 currently only has a V6 availble. Camry and Accord sell about 25% V6 and 75% 4 cylinders. The G6 is aimed directly at those same buyers. That means that the G6 "could" sell about 4 times what it is selling at when the 4 cyl. gets there. This does not count the coupe and convertible that are not out there yet either. Now you could say that they should have released the 4 first but you want to have the more profitable cars available first for those who want to have the first new car on the block. The V6 cars will be bought at a higher price point and therefore more proftitable. In fact the V6 G6 average selling price is $5000 more than the Grand Am V6 it replaced. Now that is a good story. It is also selling more than most of the other V6 mid size sedans out there.

Now why is the dealer stock so high as the press seems to think? It is not. It is within the range it is supposed to be before the huge spring selling season.

So it is actually a success story that no one wants to talk about. It is so much more exciting and therefore better to sell newspapers if you can talk about bad news. Like I said before, lets pile on GM. It is there turn.

62vetteefp · April 2005

One more item I thought of. Since they are only building the V6 right now they need to keep the plant busy till the 4 is there. Another reason for the higher supply at the delears.

Buick LaCrosse

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