Buick LaCrosse

chevyguy657 · February 2004

Yeah, I am touchy. I like talking to you folks, but some things have happened in the last few days 'round these parts, that I, somehow, managed to get involved in, shockingly, that have rattled my nerves.

And this board was the culprit in more ways than one.

I graciously "evicted" myself from this discussion a while back to avoid any further annoyance on any of you. And I did the right thing.

But, I'm a car guy, like most, if not all, of us, and like talking about a new GM model, whether I'm interested in it personally or not. And I don't think that's a bad thing, as long as we are civil. Some members apparently weren't, and I'm stunned with the outcome.

Comprende?

babeshah · February 2004

If this car wants to compete with upscale imports it is perfect, it has numerous features that are great. BUT this car lacks only 1 feature it has NO optional navagation system.

I think if it wants to succeed more and more people like nav. systems and want them esp. for a car in the lower 30's. IT IS A MUST, but why GM not said anything about it??

WILL THEY ADD ONE??
I sure hope

chevyguy657 · February 2004

Very interesting point. I'm, on occasion, so mad at GM, that I've threatened, in truth, which might still happen, to buy a Mazda 3 5-door. Yes, that has Nav, which I'd like, but isn't a make or break feature.

And now I've found out, VERY RECENTLY, that the '05 Malibu is being rushed into production (June, rather than August), which really fouls up my plans. Something has gone awry, and they're being very quiet about it thus far.

Well, if I leave GM, sure I'll be back later.

Why is GM not offering Nav on its mid-sizers? Probably because the price is out of sight to begin with. Don't count on it on the LC. I would have liked the option on the Malibu and G6 as well. Not gonna happen.

chavis10 · February 2004

I also wonder why GM chose not to offer a sat-nav system on the LaCrosse. Other than that, I really like it. As a young person myself, I'd glady consider the LaCrosse based on the current info.

corvette · February 2004

Supposedly the LC is quieter than any other vehicle GM has tested. This might make the engine choice less of an issue. I am probably in the minority here, but I wish these "entry-level" luxury cars would include a folding rear seat.

chevyguy657 · February 2004

No folding rear seat? Are you sure?

I know Mitsubishi "fouled up" big time by not having one in the new Galant, but I didn't think GM would make the same mistake.

rwisem · February 2004

Maybe someone else has opined this, but I didn't see it.

I think GM is slow to add NAV systems because they want to sell OnStar as an alternative. I know NAV is available on some caddy's which reflects the realization that you need them to play in that market.

Both NAV and OnStar have their strengths and weaknesses. I have never had a dashboard NAV unit, but have used a GPS and travel software on my laptop. It's cool to see where you are on the screen, but the directions have been disappointing.

I now have OnStar and the direction feature works pretty good.

alpha01 · February 2004

The Galant is most notable for its compromises, and the non folding rear seat is only one of them. I drove a new Galant, and felt it was a decent car- but its 2004 and ALL MFRS have DECENT cars. Nothing stood out. Mitsubishi missed an opportunity, and the car is not selling well.

Hopefully the LaCrosse will stand taller against its competition, folding rear seat (or lack thereof) not withstanding.

~alpha

chevyguy657 · February 2004

Well, now that we have a nice, friendly and civil discussion back in here, here's some more "stuff" to keep the conversation moving along. My comments on this are mostly positive, although I do feel that GM is dropping the ball by not giving current Century owners an option other than to leave Buick. Since, like it or not, the Century is Buick's best selling model, you have to wonder a bit. Enjoy.

http://www.autoweek.com/cat_content.mv?port_code=autoweek&cat- _code=carnews&loc_code=index&content_code=02421263

badgerfan · February 2004

GM's divisions have been walking in each others turf for so long, I think they are doing right in dumping low end Buicks. Leave the low end to Chevy, Saturn, and perhaps Pontiac.

jjpcat · February 2004

Nice post. I am confused why this $20k-30k car would use a 4-speed while the much cheaper Saturn S gets the 5-speed auto.

Where did you get the dimension info? How do you know "the length of the car seems long given the interior dimensions"?

alpha01 · February 2004

"My comments on this are mostly positive, although I do feel that GM is dropping the ball by not giving current Century owners an option other than to leave Buick."

I would imagine that GM's main objective is strenthenging the bottom line. In doing so, I'm sure it weighed the pros and cons of losing the Century base. Think about it- I'd imagine a good number of Century buyers will trade up to a LaCrosse CX, which will still offer many of the necessary convenience items this group requires. Assuming that the line on rebates is held, this number of current Century purchasees that upgrade to the LaCrosse will be providing GM with a much higher profit per vehicle. I'd guess that GM expects the differential in profit per vehicle vs. lost sales to the current Century customer base AT LEAST break-even, or they'd be offering a Buick on the Epsilon platform as the article states.

Factoring into the equation that the current Century base is in their 60s, I dont think GM is concerned about the loss of repeating sales.

In my opinion, dropping the Century completely is wise.

~alpha

babeshah · February 2004

From autoweek.com

They say Buick is getting a $3 bil. revamp by GM. Great news, the Lacrosse is the first NEW BUICK

LeSabre replacement will out for 2006, I think this will be a nice car, this is a FULL SIZE sedan, probably competes with more upscale cars

The RWD sedan will replace Park Avenue, finally PA will disappear, its an ugly car

And bigger news will come this YEAR, Buick plans to unveil a 4-door convertible concept at the NY Auto Show, don't mind my stupid statement, but I have never heard of a 4 door convertible, it will be RWD!!

What is a 4door convertible like? Does one exist yet?

bretaa · February 2004

I agree it's a good idea to drop the lower end Buicks. If Century buyers really want something else in their price range in the GM portfolio, there's more than enough there.

If I were a Buick dealer, though, I'd be biting my fingernails down to the cuticles seeing there's no LeSabre replacement until '06. I hope, for their sake, that's *early* '06 as the current one is already long in the tooth. I like the sound of their "flagship," though. Quiet, top draw interiors are a good way to go.

I've never understood the passion about 4 door convertibles. They last existed back in the 60's, correct? I don't see a huge market for this, but I could be wrong. Standard convertibles aren't exactly setting the market on fire right now...

Overall, though, with LaCrosse and this general plan, they're heading in the right direction.

- Bret

PS: A possible look at the "flagship" was at the bottom of this webpage. As you can see, some of this webpage's future car guesses have been wrong (like their 2005 Cobalt), but others have been correct. We'll see!

chevyguy657 · February 2004

is upon us. And yes, alpha, quite a good, and highly intelligent reply, as always.

I'm still feeling a bit "lost". If I (read;we) knew if for a fact that Saturn will slot into Olds' vacated spot, I'd agree with not haveing a "Malibu" clone" in the lineup. And yes, the LC CX is an option. We'll see in a few months, but I'll bet that even a reasonably equipped CX will top $25K. "They" won't go for that. So, other than SUVs (ugh, personally), just whom does Buick cater to? Enough for one post. Call it fair, but "leerily critical".

chevyguy657 · February 2004

is upon us. And yes, alpha, quite a good, and highly intelligent reply, as always.

I'm still feeling a bit "lost". If I (read;we) knew if for a fact that Saturn will slot into Olds' vacated spot, I'd agree with not haveing a "Malibu" clone" in the lineup. And yes, the LC CX is an option. We'll see in a few months, but I'll bet that even a reasonably equipped CX will top $25K. "They" won't go for that. So, other than SUVs (ugh, personally), just whom does Buick cater to? Enough for one post. Call it fair, but "leerily critical".

6thbeatle · February 2004

my sister owns a new buick lesabre limited and she loves it! it rides verry comfortably, has good power, and is so spacious inside with the leather front bench seat. it has excellent reliability and safety ratings, and is the kind of car that i myself wouldn't mind having on a long trip.

all in all, it's a really nice car, but i keep telling her that if she puts some 18" chrome wheels on it to match the front and rear chrome detailing, it'll look really REALLY nice!

i think the new lacrosse is a good start for buick, and with such a long and storied history, adding some style and zip to the product line-up should make buick a kool marque in the next few years, cuz everyone loves LUXURY, right?

b4z · February 2004

Didn't Oldsmobile get a multibilion dollar makeover too?

They can always say, "well, we threw a bunch of money at it and Buick didn't perform so we are killing it".

joey2brix · February 2004

The Alero, Intrigue, Aurora were all relatively new models and they wacked Olds anyway. I'm afraid the same will happen to Buick. These new models are taking too long. While GM fixes up each division one at a time, the others are rusting to death. They saved Caddy, but I fear that Buick will be DOA on the operating table.

1487 · February 2004

THey aren't going to kill Buick. Buick is getting a new minivan and sedan this year, plus they just introduced the rendevous Ultra with the 3.6. Add to that the Rainer and a new Lesabre next year and you've got a pretty good lineup of vehicles. GM killed Olds so they wouldnt have to kill Buick or Saturn.

chevyguy657 · February 2004

My BIG problem with Buick, is that Lutz refuses to stop spouting off about moving Buick upmarket. And, if so, it'll crash right into Caddy (which is better left alone; doing just fine, IMO). If they move Caddy further upmarket, well, now that's absurd. LEAVE CADDY ALONE.

There is a huge gap right now between Pontiac and the "newly upmarket" Buick. Duh?

Lights are on, but I figure they're sipping a bit too much Merlot. Or worse, martinis.

6thbeatle · February 2004

i don't think lutz ever said anything about moving buick upmarket. i believe he meant that buick would be improving buick's upmarket appeal by improving the level of refinement and style within their product lineup, not by repositioning them upwards.

in any case, buick and cadillac have always traditionally crossed over with certain models in their respective lineups, sharing powerplants and high-end GM technologies such as stabilitrak and so forth.

rctennis3811 · February 2004

Well, Oldsmobile had a lot of models right before they were given the green to die. LOL

If I recalle, Oldmobile had the Cutlass, LSS, Ninety-Eight (or something like that and its other variants), Alero, Intrigue, Aurora, and Bravada. Plus, they still introduced more trim levels and a new Aurora and Bravada..but still, they died. I bet that's what's going to happen to Buick too. Setting Lexus as their benchmark probably wasn't a great idea.

chavis10 · February 2004

"Huge gap" ??? Have you priced a fully loaded GP GTP or a Bonnie GXP?

I wonder where some of you conjure up some of these predictions about GM's demise. Are you reading the same articles as I am? I believe Cadillac said they too are moving upmarket with no future vehicles costing less than the current CTS. In fact, they are planning a Maybach type ultraluxury cruise ship. Once again, the double standard is in affect for GM. How is it that BMW has the nerve to sell a stripped 525i with under 190hp STARTING in the mid 40s while you can get a 330i performacne package for about the same price. Benz has the audacity to charge around $70+k for an underpowered S430 whose engine isn't even offered in the lower model E or CLK class. MT has a long term E class that cost about $68k. That babby is steppin all over the toes of the S class.
I'll tell you what's absurd. Can you say BMW 1 series, or how about Cclass SportCoupe. How is it that you can go to the same dealership and order a Designo SL600 for about $140k and also test drive a $25k C Sport Coupe with a Kompressor 4 banger??? If Cadillac is doing so fine, why have they been trailing in sales? I mean, hopefully that'll change soon.
I think Lutz is trying to position Buick as a company who makes luxurious sytlish vehicles with an emphasis on comfort as opposed to sport. Cadillac seems to be tackling the Europeans in the areas of driving dynamics and cost no object luxury.

joey2brix · February 2004

All the high end Euro makers have seen sales go up. This is Buick we're talk'n about and sales are in the toilet. Grandpa lost his retirement money on Enron and can't buy a 40K Buick. The people who got it won't be laughed at driving a Buick. No matter how good Caddy gets, there's still a group that are image only driven. Caddy does not equal E class.

6thbeatle · February 2004

you gotta have some faith, man.

it wasn't too long ago that americans were laughing at the crappy 3-wheeled BMW that post war-ravaged germany was building, and then germans and americans were scoffing at the crappy tin Civic that japan started building, then japanese, germans and americans were rolling their eyes at the crappy little Pony koreans started building...

Buick and Cadillac have a long and storied history of building beautiful powerful stylish cars. i'm sure they can someday recapture that cachet, but it'll take time. If Buick were building a sweet-looking sports sedan today with great handling and power everything, do you really think people would say "yuck, no way, it's a BUICK?" I doubt it.

It has to do with their product, which is really not bad at all, just lacking in the wow factor. it'll happen with time. And there's no way GM will axe Buick. Oldsmobile went the way of the dodo bird because the nameplate sounded too "old", that's all.

alpha01 · February 2004

Thanks for the kind words, chevyguy. I had some trouble with the threads this weekend too, hopefully I'll be off the hosts' S List if people continue to be civil around here!

Joey2brix- Actually, BMW sales FELL in January. Im wondering if it has to do with all the criticism over the redesigned 5-series, the panning of the overpriced X3, and the fear that Chris Bangle is going to slaughter the next 3 series.

~alpha

PS- The www.buick.com website has been updated, and includes a link for a contest to win a new, fully loaded 2005 LaCrosse. You can only enter once via the internet. PLEASE NOTE- if you continually trash the La Crosse, please dont enter, so the chances of those who are interested in the vehicle are better! (not serious, folks, just relax......).

vcjumper · February 2004

The Cutlass, LSS, and Ninety-Eight were gone a fair bit before olds was given its death sentence.

larryt22 · February 2004

Just got back from the Chicago Auto Show and I must admit the LaCrosse is a very attractive car from the outside. The new (revised) mini-vans look rather strange with their SUV front-ends. Just don't know if they will sell or not. Sat in the new Chevy Equinox and was it ever CHEAP. Also sat in the Malibu and Malibu Maxx and I must say I would never own one of those. Looked at the Pontiac G6 on display and it was pretty ugly looking. Lets hope the LaCrosse is a success or GM is in trouble. Lutz hasn't done very well with the revised GP and I don't think the GTO is going to do much either. My wife wants a Toyota and I can't say I blame her. This GM stuff just doesn't seem to cut it any more. Looks like my $2500 in GM Card savings is going to go to waste.

chevyguy657 · February 2004

Thanks, alpha for keeping reminding me. I'll enter. After all, I've only owned one non-GM product in my lifetime. If I win, maybe the neighbors will buy it at a "fair" price.

Well, I guess I grew up on the "other side of the tracks". Once Granddad went over the top with his salary, he finally traded in his loaded Olds 98, for a what? A Sedan deVille. Buick, oh please. Due to health reasons, Dad never made it beyond a Cutlass Supreme Brougham.

And on the other side of the family, it was (finally) trading in an ancient (one of those folks, like me, that can afford a lot more but want value) Olds Dynamic 88 for a, guess what, Sedan deVille.

chevyguy657 · February 2004

No, your GM Card Earnings aren't going to go to waste. Mine aren't either. Just buy elsewhere, keep racking up charges, and when you're ready for the next vehicle, let's hope GM has its act better together. You'll still have a ton of Earnings.

joey2brix · February 2004

for BMW. 7 series got many complaints but now I see a ton on the road. Folks with money still want to flaunt it. 5 series sales will come around also. Sorry 6th. Buick's days are numbered. GM couldn't do it with a clean sheet of paper: Saturn. Rehashed minivans and GP's with a little more leather ain't gonna cut it. The 3.6L in the Ultra RDV and LC are last ditch efforts to keep the old models alive. Seven yrs for a LeSabre replacement? Old timers could get 2 or 3 hip replacements in that time. Pull the respirator on Buick.

6thbeatle · February 2004

i disagree. i think buick will not only survive, but thrive. oldsmobile didn't have a best-selling car for years and years. but buick? they have only the best selling full size domestic sedan in the US--the le sabre, and excellent consumer ratings in terms of product quality, safety, reliability, and customer satisfaction, something which no oldsmobile product achieved.

why in the world would GM scuttle that? doesn't make sense to me. GM would be better off ditching Saturn. No legacy, no history, and that Ion steering wheel--Playland wants it back on bumper car no. 26.

theo2709 · February 2004

Buick has a bright future. LaCrosse in 05, LeSabre replacement (on same platform) for 06, Park Ave. replacement in 2007 on the new RWD Zeta platform, and Rendy replacement (on new Lambda platform) for 2008. The Riviera will probably return sometime within the decade as well, on the same new Zeta platform. And the LaCrosse will eventually be replaced with a shorter version of the same RWD platform.

joey2brix · February 2004

It's just sales took a dive in '03, nothing new in '04 so sales will get worse for regal/century if everyone knows they're dead models. Then in '05 you only get the LC to replace both cars and a rebadged minivan. All the new cars are great, but if you have to wait 4 of 5 years for all these fixes. As said before: money was pumped into Olds right before they shot it......

6thbeatle · February 2004

i wholeheartedly agree that the regal and century are just dead weight at GM, and that the LeSabre should be on a tighter renewal schedule, but i have a feeling things will get better at buick soon, now that lutz has removed the bean counters from total control and freed up the design department.

did you know that before lutz came on board, the design department at GM was a subdivision of the engineering department? that already is a statement in itself, saying that they are not equal partners in the making of a car. how humiliating for the creative people.

if you examine how an advertising agency works, for example, there is a creative dept (comes up with ideas) a media dept (buys media time and space) and an accounting dept (handles budget). each department has its own particular set of challenges, and its own special kind of expertise in problem-solving. you would never want to put one group of personnel under the umbrella of another because you would end up with a lousy product.

GM has mishandled its personnel and by extension its product for way too long. the management needed a wake-up call and some fresh blood and we're gonna start seeing the fruits of that change real soon.

dan165 · February 2004

The death of Oldsmobile came under a different management group. Buick will live, it has to and will if they pump out good product. The Allure / Lacrosse is a good start in my opinion.

babeshah · February 2004

Good news you guys I found out I misread a Buick future product list, I thought Buick was getting a 4-door convertible, which sounded weird.

INSTEAD, the convertible concept at NY Auto show will be a 4-passenger convertible, LOL

LOL FUNNY!! Never seen a 4-door convertible before

1487 · February 2004

Buick is not going to die. Olds was not flush with new products when it was killed. The aurora was relatively new and the Bravada was about to be launched when the announcement came. The Bravada wasn't a major development hassle for GM because of the Envoy/Trailblazer. The aurora was a unique product and its obvious they didnt know Olds was going to be killed when it was developed. Buick's image isnt as bad as Olds was in the mid to late 90s. All Buick needs is new product. People keep quoting sales figures, but Buick hasn't had a new car since 1999. Don't you think that has something to do with the sales issue? Buick will get a new car every year for the next three years or so and that should make a difference. I really doubt Buick's sales will decrease this year because the century will remain in production until the fall, they will have a full year of Rainier sales, a new Rendevous model, a new minivan and the Lacrosse which is guaranteed to outsell the Regal. You do the math. Buick is basically trying to become a higher volume, more reliable, American based VW. That is the best way to think about Buick. Their prices wont be cheap, but they wont be in MB or BMW territory either. The will make vehicles that offer nicer interiors and more features than comparable Chevys, Pontiacs and Toyotas. VW isnt really a luxury car maker, but their products are generally viewed as more classy than Toyotas and Hondas as well as any American make.

joeybrix:

The lesabre's six year product cycle is normal for GM and most european manufacturers. It will be replaced after 6 years which is better than VW is doing with the Passat and Jetta which have been out since '99 or '00 and wont be replaced until late 2005. The GS400 came out as a '98 model and wont be replaced until the 2006 model year.

v8lincolnguy · February 2004

Any idea what the pricing for the LaCrosse is going to run? From the pics I've seen, it's not a bad looking sedan. Best looking GM midsize interior that I've seen in a long time. The 3.6 liter DOHC engine should be quite fun as well.

As a former Oldsmobile owner, I can tell you the brand was really negelected near it's death. The mid to late 90s saw some new product(Cutlass, Silhouette, Intrigue, Alero) but then in 99, they started dropping models. Granted the Eighty-Eight didn't fit the new Ols image, but in late 98 the Eighty-Eight was dropped with no immediate replacement(the 01 V6 Aurora was over a year away from being introduced) and then the Cutlass was dropped after 99. In the 2000 MY, Oldsmobile actually only 4 vehicle lines; Intrigue, Alero, Silhouette, and Bravada.

6thbeatle · February 2004

really too bad about oldsmobile. GM could have done wonderful things with nameplates like Cutlass, 4-4-2, and Eighty-Eight. Ford also came pretty darn close to axing Mercury division, but I'm glad they kept it going. I wonder what could have happened if Bob Lutz had come on board at GM sooner--maybe we would be drooling over the 2005 Olds Rocket, or 2006 StarFire. waht a shame!

tomcat630 · February 2004

Some poster was going on and on about "nothing but warmed over platforms".

Well, what are the Cobalt, 500, g6, CTS, and 04 Malibu? Still not interested, then go get a warmed over 2004 VW Jetta (in its 6th year, and they say GM is slow). Or the Audi A8 Edsel.

Also, Accord sales are slipping, while Altima and Camry are still growing. Maybe Honda isn't going to 'take over' as predicted?

bretaa · February 2004

Regarding the LaCrosse:
I was at my Ford/Toyota dealer today getting my Contour SVT an oil change and got another look at the current Camry models... Whew, insomnia on wheels. It might have the most dull, characterless interior I've seen in a long time. I have no doubt the LaCrosse will compete very well against this car.

To tomcat630:
That "some poster" you mentioned was probably me, and I fully stand by what I said. You're right that VW and some other European makers don't have a more rapid product cycle than the US makers, but the big difference is that VW and others had *class leading* products at introduction and are still winning comparison tests now! How many GM products are winning comparison tests either in their first or 7th year? Let's take a look at all the "old" cars still winning Edmund's own Most Wanted:

- Sedan under $25,000: The "old" Passat
- Sedan under $35,000: The "old" 3-series
- Wagon under $25,000: The "old" Passat
- Coupe under $25,000: The "old" Golf
- Coupe under $35,000: The "old" 3-series
- Convertible under $25,000: The "old" Miata
- Convertible under $45,000: The "old" 3-series

Thank goodness for the Corvette, because none of GM's older or "newer" non-SUV's made the list. We'll see how the Cobalt, 500, and G6 do in comparison tests and the marketplace when introduced. The Malibu, while competent, has generally been in the mid to lower end of most comparison tests to date (how will it do in 6 years?) and the very good CTS, while a deserved commercial success, generally also falls in the mid to lower end of comparison tests.

Listen... I want the US makers to be the new "standards of the world." The reality is they are facing a competitive market and have a prestige, perception, and residual value gap with the public that they helped create (by GM's own admission in recent commercials apologizing). They're going to have to do what Toyota, Honda, etc. did long ago: not just be "good enough" and match the competition, but *beat them* and that means shorter production cycles on cars that currently aren't acknowledged as best in class...

- Bret

chevyguy657 · February 2004

This subject isn't DIRECTLY related to the LC, but it does reinforce my question that Saturn will be slotting into the soon-departed Olds' place. Which then makes my query as to Buick's position even more rightful.

http://www.autoweek.com/cat_content.mv?port_code=autoweek&cat- _code=carnews&loc_code=index&content_code=04677767

alpha01 · February 2004

Two points:

The Camry's interior may be boring, but it uses very high quality materials, is well constructed, and highly ergonomic.

As far as I am concerned, Edmunds.com is not an automotive testing authority. I put little faith in their vehicle reviews (which often seem frought with factual errors) or comparison tests. When they pick up the game and start really showing themselves along the lines of the better publications, thats when I'll take them seriously.

~alpha

bretaa · February 2004

Chevyguy: Regarding the role and place of Buick and the LaCrosse, I actually think GM has got it right here. I really do think there's a place for an American Lexus: a slightly upscale, smooth, refined, and elegant division for a slight premium price. I think a respected American equivalent to the ES330 would be fantastic (which is essentially what the LaCrosse is).

Saturn is going to fill the "import/VW intender" class which currently Chevy is too, well, basic (crude?) to compete for and Pontiac is too brashly American (not a bad thing). Buick won't fit for the above reasons. I think Saturn building *faithful* American versions of European Opels can be quite successful. I think the Vectra, Tigra, Astra, et al would be fantastic and successful fits for Saturn and competitive against VW.

Alpha01: I'm sorry you don't like Edmunds. I think they're fantastic, and frankly, it doesn't matter. Whereever you look (Car and Driver, Consumer Reports, Automobile, Motor Trend, Canadian Driver, whatever your "trusted" source), outstanding older designs like the Passat, 3-series, Miata, Jetta, Corvette, Dakota, etc. are all still praised and wind up at the top of comparison tests.

My point is really simple. Even outside of product cycles, you have to build world-beating products that everyone for the most part agrees are world beating, as you just pointed out about the Camry. If this LaCrosse and the next two are clearly top-draw products above their competitors, Buick will be able to enjoy the kind of kudos, prestige, and residual values that Toyota now basks in.

- Bret

6thbeatle · February 2004

if you have a look at some of the other forums at edmunds, ones in the vein of "worst auto manufacturer" and "owner horror stories", you'll find that many many MANY of the posters including myself are absolutely disgusted with VW because of their terrible quality control, reliability, and after-sales service.
until two years ago, VW offered a 2-year warranty on all their vehicles. wow. 2 whole years. VW must have a lot of faith in their product.

to be fair, they recently extended part of their warranty to 4 years, but car magazines and automotive sites like edmunds often receive brand new cars direct from the manufacturer, without having to deal with the life of the vehicle. in my opinion, VWs have a pretty lousy record as far as customer satisfaction goes, regardless of what the so-called "experts" say. they are attractive-looking though.

our buick le sabre, on the other hand, has been a reliable and comfortable stalwart in our family garage. it has met and exceeded our expectations, and the service staff are not at all surly or difficult. i think that bodes well for buick as an automotive brand that people can trust and enjoy. and no, i don't work for buick :P

bretaa · February 2004

6thbeatle:
I agree with almost *everything* you write, but I believe you and many others aren't getting my underlying point. I know VW's have terrible reliability and Buick is strong in this regard. That's one of the reasons I didn't buy an Audi recently. But guess what?

The public still wants, *desires* even, VW's!! Even people who know the reliability record take a chance since they aspire so much to own the car. I was talking with a co-worker of mine (an amazingly smart guy) who just bought a new Jetta TDI. I was talking about the reliability issue with him and he virtually said, "I have a hard time believing those reports when I look at the body or feel how solid and well built my car feels." I have two friends who own Jettas and have fallen head over heals for them, viewing them almost as fashion accessories despite them not being extremely reliable. One is buying a sister a New Beatle and the other is almost morally committed to getting a new Passat. As in interpersonal relationships, love can be blind, and VW is building cars people emotionally bond with and love.

Bringing this back to Buick and the LaCrosse, frankly, building cars that are "reliable and comfortable stalwarts" alone *hasn't* boded well for Buick. Their sales are down badly despite them having done this for 20 years. They need cars that people want and desire and love. The market is just too competitive now. I think the LaCrosse is a really good start, but they need to go further and do more. Lutz knows it and Buick hopefully knows it. That's why Lutz held the car back 11 months to improve it. I think it'll do well.

- Bret

PS: Before anyone mentions how the Toyota and the Camry does well by just being a reliable appliance, notice that Toyota has recognized this as a problem now and is swinging into action for the future. They want those Passat buyers too.

6thbeatle · February 2004

yes, I agree, if the vehicle cannot stir your blood, it's already lost half the battle. VWs DO have great emotional appeal compared to a buick, and I know many people who swear by them, but I wonder how much VW depends on image rather than substance for sales, in reference to the consistently excellent advertising campaigns that VW employs, promoting a hip sophisticated lifestyle, with the VW driving experience identified as a soundtrack to your life.

I see a lot of potential for buick right now, but they are definitely not considered hip or trendy right now. but things can turn around quickly when someone is determined to make changes, and I can see Buick responding a lot faster than VW in this regard. Buick has more resources at their disposal than VW, and more manpower too. I also think Buick under Bob Lutz's leadership is more determined than VW because they have more to prove.

Cadillac was in this very same position a few years back, and now are seen by young kids as being relatively cool cars, even the big seville STS has attracted teens and lowriders. Some of this again has to do with positive potrayals and product placements in the proper scenes--a cadillac CTS was used in a major chase scene in the hugely popular film "The Matrix", and guess what? It's become a sweet ride for a new contingent of car enthusiasts and buyers.

VW does not appear to be addressing their own problems because I believe they are complacent in their public brand awareness, ignoring the growing whispers about their horrendous quality control, abysmal reliability ratings, and scary customer service.

tomcat630 · February 2004

"VW and others had *class leading* products at introduction and are still winning comparison tests now!"

"Class leading" my foot, a 1999 (first year) VW Jetta did poorly in a Car & Driver comparison test and has not won any others since. Look it up.

Also, their quality is definitely "class leading" as in "leads in defects".

BTW: The new generation 2005 Golf is selling poorly in Europe, and VW is losing profits/sales here, too. Hardly "class leading".

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