2005 Passat

otis123 · September 2003

Why does everyone always think a model will go upscale and cost more w/ a re-design? The Passat is for a particular market. If it moves up it loses that market, plain and simple.

The Passat is VW's bread & butter. It the masses can't afford it, VWs plans are screwed and they're back to the mid-90s....

markcincinnati · September 2003

Q: Where do you see Volkswagen going in the future in America?

A: "We want to move Volkswagen more towards a premium market than the mass market. The Touareg already on the market and the Phaeton to be launched at the end of the year are already symbols of that. . . . All of this is to add more emotion and enhance the Volkswagen brand and stabilize the brand and its position in North America. We know the premium segment is different than the mass-market and we need to make certain that Volkswagen lives up to its new image and our slogan of Drivers Wanted. I also want to see more exciting products in North America for North America."

From: An Interview with Dr. Pischetsrieder 19 September 2003.

Now some attempt at clarification is made within the interview to indicate that simply increasing the price is not going to move the brand up to premium.

Detailed sometimes tedious and sometimes fascinating interviews have been published several times in CAR, Auto Bild, Audi Driver and several other global magazines. The net of the articles and interviews is to fundamentally describe the VW roadmap. First without mention of price the intent is to transform the image from whatever it is today, which might be called "pre-premium" to premium. I don't know if that is like near luxury to luxury or what.

The remarks almost always focus at the 10,000 ft level on Audi is going after BMW and VW is going after Mercedes. I can't find the quote but the spirit of the VW marching song from this point forward is something like 90 - 95% of the Mercedes Premium content at 80 - 85% of the price.

Then they throw in some truly funky and sporty vehicles from the Microbus to the sport trucks to some kind of Boxter wannabes (a born again Corrado or Scricco, perhaps?)

A new in-between the Passat and Phaeton car is coming, so say these articles.

Now go down this path if the Mercedes du jour is around $50K (E class) there should be a $40 - 45K VW. If the C class goes to $40K, the Passat should be (drum roll) $32 to 35K -- not THAT far from where is is today. Perhaps the way to look at it is that a current top o the line Passat (non W8) may soon be the base Passat -- if price is your only measure. But, like its Merecedes rival it will be fully equipped (90 - 95% of a Merc) at 80 -85% of the price.

The good Dr. spins it to lessen the impact of the apparent march up the price point, by identifying that the cars will now be premium (only) which is just about where the cars are today when they are fully decked out in GLX or GL whatever, content, trim, engines, transmissions, etc.

I am willing to bet that VW's prices will rise from at least this one perspective: the bottom of the line will no longer be brought to North America. And, if you look at Audi this is true -- there are no A4 "strippies" on this side of the Atlantic. Conversely, there are Merecedes in Europe that are the German equivalent of a Chevy Biscayne (for those of you old enough to remember.)

Bring on the Uber VW's in class (premium) and price (upscale) and give us the features, content, and ownership experience that German Car companies have become (with the exception of VW) noted for.

I think the low end Golf's, Passat's and Jetta's days are numbered we will be seeing (soon) only the premium versions of these cars here -- or if none exist, well -- sorry.

Those who want lower priced VW's and below Premium Class VW's will soon be pointed to the used car lot or, frankly, elsewhere.

The motive is profit with more than a pinch of German and German-American (VWoA) pride. It is hard to make profit with the low end cars and as many on these boards have noted they have done little to make VW corporate "proud."

Achtung!

avenger1 · September 2003

I for one would love a new VW, but will not be able to afford it. Shame on VW!

With most low end car makers moving upscale, and high end makers (mercedes/BMW) moving down to broaden market share, the net result is the elimination of the affordable car.

Even Scion, which is aimed at the young market, is not affordable, compared to the "old days".

I may be looking through rose colored glasses, but when I was young I was able to drop cash on a used mustang for my first car. Others did the same with used bugs. This is what gave VW the notion of being the Peoples car, as anyone could afford a VW, from used to new. Now all the used (new) bugs are too expensive for most. Just think, in 5 years people will be looking at pre-owned (redesigned) passats on the lots listed at $25K.

I won't be one of them.

markcincinnati · September 2003

Now, hold on there babba-looey. . . . There will be plenty of "affordable" cars, but they won't be in the premium class or if they are they will be very small cars -- and without a compelling gasoline crisis, well that ain't going to happen here (in the US).

VW's are German, a country with a very high standard of living -- and, uh, well, they're considered by Germans to be German Cars (duh). The company has made a decision to go down the Premium Path. Time will tell, but I am certain that management and the Board believes this path will generate Profit. It is not personal to you Greg or anyone else.

And besides what makes you think that you can't ever "afford" one of these premium cars? That seems rather pessimistic. Unless you are retired and do not plan or want to get back into the wage earning force, well, WE ALL can move our lot in life up (financially and in other ways). Now, we may choose not to buy a Phaeton or up price Passat or whatever, but that is not the same as claiming we'll not be able [ever] to do so.

The economy is made up of "confidence" and a little aptitude. I for one think it is my choice not to buy an $84,000 Audi RS 6, not its affordability. The sacrifices I would have to make to buy one are, at age 52, not ones I care to make. My $50,000 car will do just fine, thank you.

Cheer up -- the future WILL be better than the present.

avenger1 · September 2003

What's the weather like on bizzaro world? Here in America, if you haven't heard, we're having a major recession. People are getting laid on by the thousands each month (58,000 in my state last month). Myself being one of them. Imagine having a major degree, plus 10 years in your business profession, to having resort to working a government job to feed your family.

So, in our world, most people are moving DOWN in life. Maybe the top 10% are doing well (and "settling" for 50K cars instead of 90K), but the only time they complain is when the lowly valet makes eye contact. The Horror!

Will things get better? I hope so. Maybe then, after two years away from my profession, I can start all over again. Whoopie!

This piece of reality brought to you by the working class. The ones who WON'T be able to afford the 40K used VW passat of the future.

Kirstie_H · September 2003

by definition, we aren't in a recession at all. One has to be careful not to look at one's own experience and proclaim it to be reality for most. I'm sorry you're out of work in your profession, but you don't know what's around the corner!

I can't even see the top 10% from here, but looking up and dreaming is better than looking down and dreading.

This piece of *my* reality brought to you by your discussion host.

markcincinnati · September 2003

If misery loves company, let me tell you that I am in IT -- we would love to have had a recession; it would have been a whole lot better than the depression we had instead.

My company (and I own it) was at 60 people in April of 2001. We are now at 18. Yet, as one of my people said, "we had ten extraordinary years -- a couple of bad ones may be the price we pay." I agree with our host -- I think of the future in the following terms:

1. It is ahead
2. The particulars are unknown about it
3. Overall it will be better than the past or the present (key word: Overall)

You, specifically may or may not be able to make a decision to buy a new or used VW for $40,000 or $90,000 -- I have no clue about you personally, obviously. I feel your pain -- and for all you know, I may be in MORE pain than you (or less).

None of this detracts me from my attempts to move forward, believing -- at age 52 -- that the best is yet to come and that I will have a huge influence on how things turn out for me.

Also none of this has anything to do with my belief in VW's corporate product strategy -- in other words, I do believe what I have written in these posts about the VW brand (and others, too -- at least at the time I wrote it) -- in sum: it is movin' on up market (and ultimately up price). I may or may not think that it is a smart thing for VW to do -- many who post here obviously do not think so. Often it has been proven that there is "more room at the top" to succeed. The competition may be more fierce, but it is usually less plentiful.

Everything is a trade off -- VW must want to be seen more qualitatively than quantitatively. Ironic isn't it - VW "the people's car" originally will now become the people's car for those people who want premium cars.

I have every reason to believe I will be one of its target customers, and I have confidence that it is possible that the same goes for you.

We are where we are -- and it is a self-inflicted wound (the economic condition, i.e., that you discussed). The cure -- at the theoretical level -- is easily described and difficult to "make" manifest. The only cure I can see is that we need to do a heck of a lot better job in educating ourselves and in moving to real time, all the time, economic, financial (monetary) and market information -- on a global level. Then we can be responsive rather than reactive -- heck we might even be able to be proactive.

Imagine if the many influences upon the economy could be reported and adjusted in real time -- imagine the entire economy able to rapidly make a move, say at a speed like the gasoline stations change prices -- which around here is sometimes twice per day. No longer would we have Fed meetings that deal with incomplete or stale data, no longer would we wait for inventory numbers to be produced and then 30 days later restated, and so on.

To repeat, we are, economically where we are because "we programmed it to happen." The economy did what we programmed it to do, not what we wanted it to do.

VW is acting in its own selfish and presumably "best" interests. If you remain a target customer or not is up to you.

Kirstie_H · September 2003

It will be interesting to see whether it's a successful ploy for VW to move upmarket, or whether there's not a current gap in the market that needs filling. For instance, Chrysler's big attempt at the same (Pacifica) has thus far been a resounding failure -- shoppers weren't ready to pay $38K for what's turned out to be a bog-standard Chrysler.

I think VW is going to have to show the added value before people will believe it's worthwhile.

avenger1 · September 2003

Ones personal experience is not a reflection on the world as a whole, true. For my profession, Marketing, is directly tied to the economy. As the economy shrinks, companies cut back. When they lay off personnel, we get laid off as well as marketing budgets get the chop. IT people have been fairly successfull isolating themselves from the downturn by rebranding themselves from one crisis to another (Y2K, Viruses, hackers, etc). This comes from working on HP and Handspring as clients.

Getting back to the topic at hand, VW making a move up is not really motivated by higher ideals of quality or branding, but most likely out of profit. Higher end vehicles cost more to buy, but not to build. Beefeater did the same move with their gin. How do you revitalize lagging sales? They boosted the price of the products, simple as that. Americans equate price with quality (usually).

Subaru is making the same market gestures as VW with their new Legacy (coming soon). Imagine a $40K Subaru! It will happen next year.

I think Sube and VW need to take a lesson from Mazda's book regarding the 626/929 replacement Mazda6. They took an outdated set of vehicles and replaced them with one that is leaps above the previous generation in regards to build quality, luxury, performance, etc.

They then priced it reasonably, so nearly anyone can own it (in one form or another).

The new legacy will be as nice as the 6 (it looks like Sube's lead designer was sitting in a 6 when designing the new legacy interior). Sube and VW should just go with the standard 1% jump in price, and "wow" the press/public with the new vehicles, in terms of performance and quality improvements. Maybe that would help push them upward in marketshare. And then, maybe after a couple years of not being able to keep up with demand because everyone wants a sube or VW(wouldn't THAT be weird), they can elevate themselves to luxury.

And if VW wants to become a luxury player, they are going to have to keep SOME lower price vehicles for several years to come, as it will be a tough job selling VW as a luxury brand next to BMW and MB until enough time passes that people can begin to accept their new role in the market. Besides, young buyers need to graduate to a higher level car within the same brand. If they alienate their low end customers in search of a quick buck, they will shoot themselves in the foot.

Once again, they can't simply price themselves as luxury, and think it gives them the keys to the executive bathroom. Respect is earned, not demanded.

GregC

Kirstie_H · September 2003

Great points, Greg! Many people do view VW now as a car that most people can own, even if slightly used. I think it will be difficult for them to "up" that perception quickly, without letting their low-end customers grow with them.

I remember the old Beetles and Vanagons, and seeing youth driving them, and nearly shrieked when I saw the pricing on the new versions.

markcincinnati · September 2003

Appears to be somewhat gradual as you suggested, with the Phaeton being the first step -- look for 2005 to be the beginning of the beginning of the more widespread march upstream.

In some respects this march upstream may be equated with the unintended acceleration problems Audi had in, 1985? -- it was a decade before people stopped talking about the 60 minutes story.

If VW starts their upmarket march in earnest in 2005, it would not be beyond the pale for this evolution to take several years.

However, POP onto the market from "nowhere" Acura, Lexus, Infinity -- and there were customers waiting.

Perhaps the Touareg followed by the Phaeton followed by the redesign and re introduction of the Passat and the Passat+size over the next 24 months will accelerate the process.

And, those of us in IT have been and still are "devastated" by the post Y2K downturn, dot.com implosion and widespread consolidation, outsourcing to India and the perfect storm of events that led to a major pull-back in IT spending starting in late 2000 and only just now starting to regain traction. Double whammy here in Ohio the third largest manufacturing state -- manufacturing was hammered and manufacturing was a huge consumer of IT services, products and infrastructure. Marketing certainly was hit by the recession and the overall economic conditions over the past 30 months, I grant -- but IT has found itself almost mortally wounded. Only now are we seeing the light at the end of the tunnel and only now are we starting to believe it is NOT another oncoming train.

avenger1 · October 2003

In my town, the advertising field lost so many people, that the SF Ad Club, after 99 years of existence, went under due to not having enough employed members to sustain. This is like the UAW going under because no one made cars in the US any more.

My fear is that VW and Subaru will simply go the "raise the price" route to luxury. Subaru will ride on the tails of the STi models as a justification to jack up prices. VW will look at the success of the Toureag as an excuse to continue with the price increases. Unfortunately for VW, they don't realize that the success of the toureag has less to do with the fact that it is a VW, and more to the fact that it's a TRUCK. Trucks/SUV's are in style now. Caddy has a truck and SUV, and even Saab will come out with a SUV (based on a rebadged GM).

Imagine what would have happened if the gas crunch hit a little sooner, and trucks never became the rage they are now...people would be riding around in Mini's and hatchbacks with 20 inch rims with loads of bling-bling. And the folks at VW would be scratching their heads thinking "how do we fool everyone into paying $40K for a Lupo?"

Lastly, as I mentioned earlier, just raising prices substantially won't automatically give them the prestige they desire. The examples are Lexus and Infiniti...they jumped on the scene, with no prior history, and made luxury cars at near-luxury prices. Has it gotten them anywhere? Infiniti hasn't really made an impact with rebadged Nissan's, until the G35 was created. And Lexus...didn't their VP say recently "emulate BMW?" Even they themselves admit that by simply making expensive cars, doesn't give them the prestige that come with building exciting, sporty cars with HERITAGE.

Greg

PS...the latest VW news is that the Microbus slated for redesign has been pushed back because they can't find a way to bring it out at the price that the public wants. Myself and others filled out a survey online regarding their concept vehicles, and most people wanted a price like most minivans (this was before the big upscale push). They won't make that mistake again...notice they skipped asking the public what price the Toureag should have been.

markcincinnati · October 2003

All these discussion pertaining to VW's move to the premium class, that is. . . .

I re-read some of the intereviews and articles about VW's MASTER PLAN to move to the "premium" class. While one can certainly infer and actually see the intent to have more expensive automobiles, I have not actually read that the plan simply calls for prices to be raised without some concomitant raise in "content."

I agree -- simply raising the price won't fool anyone. The emperor has no clothes comes to mind. Yet the Phaeton appears to justify its price and the Passat+ does too. Other potential NEW model cars that are in the pipeline at least go part way toward justifying higher prices.

I hope that VW doesn't simply crank the price up on a Jetta without some substantive content changes.

If this is what happens, well, it deserves to fail.

I basically have bought into the notion that VW will move both the car and the price upmarket. Indeed, I think there is some evidence to suggest that they might move the car upmarket a little bit faster than they move the price upmarket.

From what I can tell, the Phaeton is the fraternal twin of the Audi A8 -- but it appears that it will be priced lower (and I would argue that since perception is reality, that they almost have to do this -- or end up discounting the car so heavily that it becomes a joke).

VW will have to prove itself worthy of the Premium Class to which it strives -- if I have led anyone to believe that I think otherwise, I hopefully have corrected the message.

Premium class and almost premium price will happen, but I doubt that it will come simply by jacking up the MSRP 10 - 30% without major substantive content changes.

avenger1 · October 2003

most likely more so than sube will in their move upscale.

I don't mean they will simply raise the price. As they release the new golf/jetta/passat, they will then increase the price. The Passat will have a 2.0T w/200hp (which is still below accord/altima), while the v6 gets up to Accord levels. But in the long run, it's still a Passat, just newer and slightly larger. Yes I know it will be better than the old but will the price be justified? One look at the interior of the soon-to-be released golf, leaves much to be desired (looks like they took a cue from Infiniti G35 - skimp in interior quality to save money).

My question is, will the increase in features correspond with the increase in features. Keep in mind the cost of taking an existing 1.8T up to 200hp via chipping, and perhaps a body kit. Worth a 10K increase? 1.8T start at 23K (leather/AT)...soon to be 32K (my guess).

All I have to say is, as soon as the coil packs fail on the $33K passat, people will be screaming bloody murder. Second, will VW finally step in and remove the "bad" dealerships? And if they do, will there be any left? And how will they (dealerships)treat the person bringing in their $23K 2004 passat in for service, now that they are a "luxury" brand? It's bad enough people have to bring their 40K toureags into a dealership that doesn't even know how much oil goes into the 1.8T engine (call 3 different dealerships, get 3 different answers).

Greg

markcincinnati · October 2003

The stuff I read in no way equates to a new body a 2.0T, a bump to 200 HP and $10,000 more.

Now, however, I did read about more expensive Passats (again at the 80-85% level of a so-called comparable Mercedes). If the comparable Mercedes can be had for $40K+, then a $32K+ Passat is, apparently, the target price. How much MSRP is today's Passat V6 4Motion? Last time I looked it was in the ballpark. Only the W8 sport with every option (and there aren't many) can crest $40K, currently. The rumor mill says the W8 will not be carried over, instead there will be a 3.2L V6 twin turbo (think Audi A6 2.7T -- in terms of the stair steps up the price ladder, in that a 3.0 A6 is follwed, currently up the price scale by a 2.7T A6 quattro which is close enough for Jazz to $50K fully equipped).

I think a new Passat 2.0T may be more than a 1.8T Passat, but I think, too: the power is higher, there will be more standard features than the current base line 1.8T.

The movement will be, more or less, appropriate.

Max out, today, a 2004 Passat (in all three flavors -- or all four depending on how you look at them) -- the next generation may be more than the current. But it is my understanding that the difference will be due more to maxing out the models than a capricious price increase justified thinly by "just" a new body style.

merc1 · October 2003

I guess I'm not grasping the exact intentions of VW's upmarket push. I thought they wanted a car in each segment of the market, not to push their main bread and butter cars (Passat and Jetta) upmarket too. If they intend to make the Jetta a 30K car and the Passat a 40K car with no lesser priced versions VW is just going to fail in the U.S. market.

In theory I can see the appeal with having everything from a 18K Golf to a 90K Phaeton W12, but they have to keep their main cars (Jetta, Golf, Passat) affordable. Now they can do a premium version of each, if they just want a slow-selling halo car like the Passat W8, but to base the next Passat at 30K is ridiculous.

M

markcincinnati · October 2003

Merc1, I think your understanding is correct.

I must be misstating what I have read.

As I noted above, assuming there is a 2.0T Passat, it should come to market at about the same price point (content weighted) as is a current 1.8T Passat.

I don't know if I have seen anything that suggests that Jettas will cost $30K -- PERHAPS there will be a way with engine and content to raise the price to $30K but I don't think the initial models will overnight go from $X to $X+$10,000.

My point is to say that there will be content-creep and an associated price creep.

Today there is an (unsuccessful) $40,000 Passat.

We may argue that the content does not justify the price and/or that VW's total lack of Marketing, promotion, etc., of this model is at fault.

There are also Passats that cost five figures LESS. The future models will move upscale is the spirit of what I have read.

Moving to the Premium Market is what I have read. Nothing states that the price will just automagically go up by $10K in pursuit of this.

The cars will by design, engineering, content and fit and finsh head north, however. This, then, will ultimately raise the price.

I would not look for next year's base Passat to be $40K, in other words.

avenger1 · October 2003

Chill with the babba-looey comments. I may be a Howard Stern fan, but you don't know me well enough to resort to name calling. Cool?

Second, it's been well stated on most VW boards (I'm sure you've been there, since this IS a VW discussion) that the Passat will likely move from the 1.8 to 2.0 on the base models and the 6 will grow in size and power as well. This will be in addition to the new body style (based on the golf/jetta platform - VW is ditching the platform sharing with Audi).

Also, the Jetta will move up in size somewhat to compensate for the size increase in Passat. There will also be a car positioned between the Pheaton and the Passat, and concept sketches have already surfaced on one popular "spy shot" site.

One question...how can you say "The stuff I read in no way equates to a new body a 2.0T..." if the whole purpose of this discussion is regarding the REDESIGN of the passat...you know...new body, engine, etc. Are the sources you are reading saying that the NEW Passat will have the SAME body, engine, etc?

Comments, anyone?

Greg

makakio · October 2003

All good points and all very entertaining. I had a look at the 2005 renderings at the link from post #1 and the new Passat looks incredible. Nice enough to get me to consider continuing to drive my perfect (but boring after all these years) 93 Benz 190.

I've always been a fan of the passat (parrticularly the wagon) and I would expect the '05 to see an increase in price but like many here I'm not certain VW's gameplan is valid for the US market.

Moving upscale to higher-margin product only works (IMO) if they can:
1) successfully reposition VW's brand image,
2) fix the reliability issues that are already less common to luxury german (BMW, MBZ) - not to mention upscale Japanese brands (and there are plenty of competitors from $38k all the way up through $65k) and
3) offer some aspect that differntiates the brand.

I'm not confident that a VW anything is going to outcorner or outsport a Bimmer, or that a VW is going to offer more prestige and solidity than a Benz, or be more insular, comfy or reliable than an Infinit or Acura or Lexus - at $40k, $50k or $60k.

And seeing asa how those brands have been perfeting their craft for decades while VW has been perfecting the art of building massive amounts of (relatively) chreap cars, I certainly don't have much confidence that they can sweep all of those catergories.

It would be a real shame to see a decently-appointed 2.0T Passat 'GLS' climb into $30k. I'd buy the Audi. Who wouldn't?!

Please someone tell me why they would rather spend $35k or more for a VW when you can buy a BMW or Audi - or even a Benz - for that kind of money when the brand has had reliability issues, has never been a top-performer and while it has offered "great for the price-point" interiors certainly has not (again, IMO) turned out a design that beats a premium german brand. I. Don't. Get. It.

I think VW had the right recipe with the first and second-generation Passats: offer FAR more attractive design and content at a *slightly* higher price than your competition. Sure, they have to make a gazillion units to make the same profits from slimmer margins, but they're moving into a market that I would think is much more volatile than they're giving credit.

And yeah, I draw that opinion from my own experience as a consumer in the Silicon Valley, where things are certainly NOT as bad as the press would indicate, but where friends who were considering no less than a $35-$45k auto purchase (or lease) are now considering $28-35k because HEY - we've all been given a dose of reality and sensibility over the past 2.5 years, even if we have our upwardly-mobile, well-paying jobs and are optimistic about the future.

I have to think that VW is messing with a really good philosophy here and the risk in moving up is pretty darn substantial as compared to heading down the path of perfecting the current model.

My two cents.

markcincinnati · October 2003

My statement: "The stuff I read in no way equates to a new body a 2.0T, a bump to 200 HP and $10,000 more," stands.

#1 a new body which is coming, plus a 2.0T engine, and a rise to 200HP coming too, will NOT be the reason and will not cause the price to jump $10,000.

#2 I never said there was no new body, no new engine and I also never said that there wouldn't eventually be cars that will have a rise in price.

My point was that simply changing the body and adding an up-rated engine in and of itself would not be used as justification for an automatic $10,000 list price increase.

Perhaps I wrote without clarity, and for that I apologize, I meant it to be interpreted as an algorithm

New Body + New Engine/HP is NOT EQUAL to a $10,000 price increase.

I suspect you read it as either:

New Body + New Engine/HP = $10,000 price increase

or that I was suggesting that there would be no new body(yet a substantial price increase), although that would certainly cause the board and the dealers to react negatively and quickly.

===

Are we saying that the Phaeton will have no takers?

Are we saying that IF VW creates cars with higher MB like content and charges 80-85% of the MB MSRP that people will not consider the VW at all because the price will have risen?

Are we saying that no matter how much "content" VW adds that they will have no takers (in the US) or so few takers that it is impossible to fathom.

Isn't VW's approach sort of the Honda Acura approach? Theoretically Acuras (and it is not limited to this brand, I just chose it for the example) have "higher content" than their fraternal twin Honda models and they charge more for them.

A Lexus ES 300 and a Camry appear to be cut from the same cloth, but the Lexus has higher content.

OK the VW way is to apparently keep the name VW and add more content to some cars, introduce some new cars and work over a period of years to raise the perception that their cars are "Classic Luxury" cars that can in feature, function and content compete at the 90% to 90%+ level with similar MB's but charge 80 - 85% of MB's asking price.

You can already see SOME of this happening now.

The ad campaigns, dealers and VWUS have to all get into alignment with this move to Premium class -- it is no secret to those of us who participate here -- it has not yet happened. The Phaeton, coming very soon, will be the first true test of this attempt. The W8 for reasons I do not understand was a half-hearted attempt and the Touareg has apparently made a successful launch and is well regarded by folks such as Car and Driver.

If Honda did it with Acura and Toyota with Lexus it is therefore NOT impossible that VW can do the same thing with the VW twist.

I am rooting for them.

And, contrary to what seems to be the theory I do not see the end of the "value" models overnight.

And, I do not mean any of my remarks to be offensive to anyone -- on the contrary when I say "hold on Lucy you got some 'splainin' to do" or "hold on there Babba Louie. . ." I am referencing phrases from TV shows and cartoons that have come over time to have a widespread meaning . . . generally of humorous origin and meant to evoke at least a chuckle. We don't need no stinkin' name callin' on this forum. And, there's no crying in baseball.

a_l_hubcaps · October 2003

markcincinnati-

Toyota :: Lexus
Honda :: Acura
VW :: ????

Yes, the answer is AUDI. That's the problem here. Why is VW trying to become a luxury brand when THEY ALREADY HAVE ONE?

-Andrew L

avenger1 · October 2003

But Baba looey sounded a lot like baba booey (of Howard Stern fame), if you know what I mean...

I must have misready your post about your sources, and I agree with your many posts. You have a better finger on the pulse of VW than most around here, that is for sure!

What I meant to say is that there will be a hefty price increase with the introduction of the new models, but was concerned that the jump will be view as justified to the amount of the improvement over the previous model. Will people accept a 30hp increase in power for say $5000 increase in overall cost of the car, if the previous model could go from 170 to 200 with a $500 chip? Current VW shoppers are already questioning the price difference between the 4 and 6 in terms of power/cost ratio. There are endless discussions regarding the value of the 6 compared to the turbo 4 on vwvortex.

I believe their best strategy is to strive to build 90% Mercedes quality, but at the current price structure (plus 3%). This would allow them to overcome the current perception of bad quality (backed up by the JD Powers long term study). Similar to how Audi had to rebuild their reputation after the car lurching scandal of the 80's...Audi didn't just get back their luxury status overnight. Same with Caddy trying to revitalize themselves. They need to build up demand before raising prices. If there is enough demand for the new cars, then raise the price, ala the Miata.

Greg

PS...I remember being at the auto show the year the Miata was announced. It was supposed to be their low cost entry. Turns out that demand was so high, they artifically raised the price and never looked back.

markcincinnati · October 2003

Andrew I completely understand and frankly I agree with the relationship you suggested Toyota/Lexus, etc., VW/Audi.

From a certain point of view, perhaps somewhat lost on some of us in the US, Mercedes = Classic Luxury, BMW = Dynamic Sportiness. VW on the other hand has often been viewed (and I cannot dispute some of the conclusions) as a cheap German car ("the people's car" a car (wagen) for folks (volks) taking some liberties).

I do not work in the automotive industry but I read darn near everything I can find about cars and driving (other than NASCAR "stuff", that is).

Over the course of reading, I have found that premium cars have higher profit margins as do trucks and SUV's. Attempting to make very high value cars is apparently difficult to do well and profitably in America and Europe (thinking of the European brands that have targeted such high value cars to the US market).

America quantitatively is, relatively speaking, a low volume market for many European (and here more specifically German) automakers. Yet, as Frank Sinatra says "if you can make it here, you can make it anywhere. . ." so the European makers strive to succeed in the US in part because of what it symbolizes and of course for what it [US sales] brings to the bottom line.

Since BMW and Mercedes are the VW group's rivals and since these two brands apparently appeal to different customers, VW has chosen a divide and conquer strategy. Audi will (over the next X years) differentiate itself from VW more and more and target BMW; VW will share less and less with Audi and will target Mercedes.

Audi will be morphed from "fancy" VW to a genuine rival to BMW. VW will move to the Premium Class (which as I understand it denotes, to a certain extent price) and within the Premium Class will morph from high value to Classic Luxury, the perch that Mercedes sits atop.

Now, please note that the morphing will be much more tightly focused in the US than elsewhere. And this tracks well with Audi, BMW and Mercedes. In Germany there are "stripped down" Audis, BMW's and Mercedes. Our entry level A4 is way up the pecking order of A4's. I rented an A4 in Munich, its interior was naked, the windows were crank, there was no sunroof -- it did have A/C and a radio and it had a 1.6L non-turbo engine and 15" skinny tires -- it reminded me of a bare bones Jetta GL. This is not to say it lacked Audiness in terms of driving -- it was tight and was quite willing to sustain 160kph on the autobahn if you gave it plenty of room and time to get to that speed -- it was a dog dog dog; no such Neon-like Audi would ever be successful in the US.

The other German car makers offer really low end cars in the European market, too.

Funny, there are higher end VW's in Germany than are brought here. I saw some very high zoot Passats in Munich that we do not get here; in fact it was almost as if, in Germany, VW and Audi's models were reversed -- some VW's had higher content than some Audis; a phenomenon that would never happen here.

So the good Dr. P says "we will move to the Premium Class with VW and with Audi to the much more Sporting Class" (which he seems hell bent to call "dynamic").

This will happen over time but the beginning of the beginning of this move is happening in calendar 2003 and will begin to be more noticable with the MY 2005 VW's. The cry of "this will never fly" amuses me somewhat because I suspect people think VW will alienate its current customers and its current prospects and that therefore this strategy is destined to fail.

Perhaps, but I doubt it. Here's why:

Assume the 2005 Passat with its new body, higher hp 2.0T engine and some additional content is brought out with a $5,000 increase in price over a "comparable" 2004 model -- well, I hope we all agree that this would be about as successful even with a good marketing campaign as the Passat W8. I suspect VW knows this too. Now assume that the 2005 Passat comes out as noted above and is, for example 5% higher in price than a 2004 "comparable model" -- even if the 2004 1.8T was $30,000 -- which it isn't -- this would only amount to an MSRP increase of $1,500. Presumably the additional content and increase in performance afforded by the new engine would more or less "justify" this increase. Even 6% or 7% is not too big a jump in absolute dollars IF the content (which is a combination of "things" -- which is quantifiable -- and "quality" -- which is not quantifiable intially but is perceived as the fit and finish, the warranty, and the inclusion of "something" that is typically reserved only for classic luxury vehicles.) "Wow, I got this high zoot car for only a few bucks more per month than last year's economy version. . ." is not impossible to imagine an American customer remarking. And, as noted, if the warranty becomes Mercedes (or Audi) - like, and all maintenance costs are covered for X thousands of miles, well some of the quality and reliability concerns will be mitigated.

Move on up the line, as Mercedes does in their C or E class and the price between the lowest level Passat and the highest level Passat could (and probably will) more than double. Sound familiar?

A US spec entry level A4 is $25K+ and a top of the line A4 (which is called an S4) can exceed $54K.

It is my contention that VW will move to the Premium class not so much by over raising the price (along with the other attributes mentioned) of the low end, but rather by raising the high end. Think A6 3.0 "bare bones" through A6 4.2 "maxed out."

Then year after year at the speed of evolution, not revolution keep pushing the models up by the generous addition of content (power everything standard to start with, more airbags, ESP+brake assist, infotainment systems, ON*Star, Parktronic, Cruisetronic, and other electronic gizmos that add either luxury, safety or performance attributes to the "image" of the vehicle.) Simultaneously bring to market new, completely new models -- such as the Phaeton -- which can truly be compared with the Mercedes S class cars (but think 90% of the content at roughly 80% of the price). Hence a $64,000 VW could be compared to an $80,000 Mercedes and get away with it -- IF (big IF) the perceived value, quality and reliability accompany it.

This is the job, for the immediate future, of the Phaeton, the new Passat and the Passat Plus. Over the next 2 model years, I predict the evolution will be very gradual when thinking of the traditional VW line (Jetta, Golf, Passat, New Beetle) -- the Phaeton and Touareg are already in the pipeline and their success over the long term is as yet unknown and unknowable.

The dealer body, of course, will have to undergo an almost complete re-grooving and this, in my opinion, is an even bigger challenge than the product itself.

Gosh this is exciting, I can't wait to see how it all plays out.

markcincinnati · October 2003

And, last but not least to those concerned that VW may alienate its current customers -- to a certain extent the current customers are NOT the desired future customers. But, more to the point the current customers will move up (in this economy, I know that is hard to imagine now) and VW wants to make certain that they can stay within the fold. And Audi is VW's rival when it comes to this, so suggesting that it's all in the family causes VW managment to bristle.

merc1 · October 2003

"Gosh this is exciting, I can't wait to see how it all plays out."

My thoughts exactly. I just want to sit in the first Phaeton to arrive. I hope VW doesn't go belly up trying to do all of this. Better still I hope they can recover if it all fails.

M

a_l_hubcaps · October 2003

mark-

I agree that VW might be able to pull this off. I just think it's stupid for them to take the huge appeal they have with young buyers (the very group that other successful companies are trying to attract) and throw it all away. As a college student, I know from interacting with other people my age that VW is on the top of the cool-car list among people in the 17-22 age bracket. That will not continue if you can't get a VW for under $25,000. So maybe VW can make it in a different segment -- my point is, when you already have one segment playing right into your hands, why mess with success?

-Andrew L

markcincinnati · October 2003

I think there will be sub $25,000 VW's for several more years -- even today, however, when you go to a large metropolitan dealership here in small city Cincinnati, the number of VW's on the lot over $20,000 is growing.

I maintain, VW management is/are not stupid.

scottva22 · October 2003

I have never owned a VW, although my wife had a bad experience with a '96 Cabrio. I just test drove a '04 Passat GLX Wagon w/4 motion and loved it. It seems to have a lot of options for the money. I started doing research and came across this site about the 2005 coming out. My dilema now is that I don't want to buy the last model year before a major redesign. Any opinions would be helpful.

Thanks, Scott

markcincinnati · October 2003

Last year of design = best year, fewest number of issues, problems, bugs -- lots of dealership experience with respect to maintenance and repair(implied is that the first year may have many bugs that will be worked out as the model matures).

Or.

First year of design = best year. Latest and greatest technology; had the opportunitiy to "fix" previous generation's design "flaws," etc. Newer = better, i.e.

I've done both and I can see both sides.

I doubt that you will be unhappy with an 04, however. But if 6 - 10 months from now the 05 comes out and you are smitten, well, you'd be too far upside down to get out of the lease.

Look at the "assumed" style, features, functions, engine transmission combinations, etc. This research can be done on the Internet and will have some degree of reliability. The final degree of reliability, however, will not come until first quarter (or possibly second) of calendar 2004 when the dealers begin to get their VWoA information.

You pays your money and you takes your chances.

scottva22 · October 2003

Thanks for the thoughts, Mark. The car will actually be my wife's daily driver, so I'm sure she would be happy with it even after the 2005 comes out, plus we need the car now.

Any sites you know of that have more indepth info on what's coming in the 2005? Or is it mostly a guess at this point?

kinct · October 2003

VW = Volkswagen = "People's Car" (meaning a car for the masses)

maybe a new name??

RVW = Reichvolkswagen = "Rich People's Car"

Frankly, if VW goes up into the 30's, they've lost me. I've driven a lot of VWs:

73 Super Beetle (Dad bought it for me as a fixer-upper first car)
72 Super Beetle (borrow from Dad)
87 GTI (213k miles)
86 Golf (took over from the wife when she got a Volvo wagon)
99 Passat (current car @117k miles).

I love the cars, but they can't price'em into the stratosphere.

scottva22 · October 2003

Goes into the $30k's? The '04 GLX 4 motion I just test drove has an MSRP of $34,180. But I see it as a discount to an A4. Granted I'm not as well versed on VWs but those are the two cars I'm comparing (Passat v. A4).

markcincinnati · October 2003

No one has ever suggested that VW will "overnight" go upscale, although I believe they will begin in earnest this year -- but I maintain it will be volcanic -- the first explosion was small the W8 Passat, next the Touareg, followed by the Phaeton then some injections here and there across the entire line. The lava is starting to flow, that is.

The cars as they move (or perhaps march or "slog") upstream, upmarket, upprice -- will add both content and "quality" (or else) as they increase their average MSRP.

If you don't want a $30K car that is fine -- but to automatically exclaim that you will not ever buy another VW as they move up the price ladder is somewhat confusing. Is it just because the cars, in your experience "ain't worth it?" Or, is it that you do not believe that ANY car -- for you -- is worth $30K?

If you do not want a 30K car that is OK-fine with the world as far as I know -- none of us, yet, know if VW can pull this (move) off.

I say again: I'm rooting for them -- they aren't stoopid!

kinct · November 2003

Sorry, didn't mean to suggest I wouldn't buy ANY VW if they start selling some vehicles over 30k. They've actually been doing that for a while now.

If the VW I _need_ (read Passat, as I have 5 people to haul about) is over 30k, they've lost me as a customer. Unless of course I become suddenly very wealthy.

The "core" of VW cars must remain affordable. That's the whole point of the name "Volkswagen". They still do have reasonably affordable cars at the lower end of the scale.

markcincinnati · November 2003

Well, the Chairman has been oot and aboot giving speaches and more speaches and even more speaches each one intending to add clarity to VW's intention to move upscale.

It seems that it is likely that the Passat and certainly the Passat plus will move above $30K -- BUT, 100% Audi-like warranty and maintenance and service will be included (which some feel is worth between $1500 and $2400 over a three year period and more for 4 years. Moreover, the base model will be upcontented -- more like the current top o the line versions and the W8.

I dare say that VW will, if this is true, still be a value leader. Your willinginess to pay $30K or more for a car aside, it appears that these are "good things" for the intended future customer-market.

Perhaps a one-year old $36,000 "new" Passat will be below $30K and will still pique your interest.

Time will tell.

I bought my first high buck car (a 1987 Audi 5000CS turbo quattro, with every option and in Pearl White) in late 1988. I got it with new tires on it for $25K -- kept it about 30 months, and it more or less hooked me totally on the brand.

You may find yourself in the same situation.

kagan1 · November 2003

There may be something we are all forgetting...

We assume VW wants to be the highest volume dealer in class in the US. They have not attempted this yet, I doubt they would start now. From an analytical viewpoint there is no reason VW should sell as many current Passats as they do, given the excellent offerings from Toyota and Honda. Yet they do! People pay more for a less reliable car in the Passat than they do for other imports. Why?

Because VW appeals to different senses and sensibilities. It's partly their very successful marketing plan. They ARE different, or at least perceived as different in the US. They appeal to people who refuse to be sheep. People who don't want the Toyota or Honda, because their parents and every other Joe Schmoe has one.

I suspect there are many people who fall in this category that associate Mercedes with stodgy old conservative lumps. I for one, am a type of personality that enjoys flipping off the establishment. This is what VW sells! There are many people out there that want luxury without the image that many luxury brands like Merc, Lexus sells.

I believe this is where VW is headed. They are not really trying anything new. They are taking a tried and true marketing strategy and aiming it at other targets. Namely Mercedes and Lexus. For all you BMW buyers out there. Relax, you're not the target. This is what AUDI is for.

I'm not saying they will be successful by every measure. But, look at it this way. If they sell slightly more than half the volume at slightly more than double the margin, they have gained substantially. Now throw in the other part of this equation....

If VW can establish itself as a player in the luxury segment to any amount of success, even minimally, it makes their (relative)economy offerings that much more appealing.

So, to sum up...

If VW sells even a few high end models, enough to break even or slightly better, and this relates to an increase in sales for the Jetta, Golf, etc., VW wins big.

We assume that winning involves being #1, or top 3 in volume. VW has never aimed for this, they won't start now. It is a well-thought out strategy in my opinion, to take a successful recent past and translate it into greater profitability. That's the bottom line here.

jasonvsu · December 2003

The VW's have the best styling right now and that alone allows them to charge more than the Accord and the Camry, but people are not going to forget that the Passat was sompared to the Accord and Camry.
In order to add to the price each Passat would need to be priced based on what it would cost to add ammenities into the base price that are in luxury cars like power seats, leather, and wood trim. The Benz C230 starts at $26K so the Passat isn't that far off in the current model starting at 22k.
VW shouldn't charges more than 30k to get a 240 hp V6 when Honda, Nissan, and Toyota offer 240,240, and 220 hp engines. People are going to remember the "nicer than a Toyota but not a luxury car" image without some serious bells and whistles.
The current Passat is a nice car, but its a little overpriced. I like it the way it is now except for the way it performs in comparison to other midsize sedans with V6's. If VW wants to make a couple grand at my expense I don't blame them, but in the process I should be faster than anything cheaper and comparable.
The only people who would want to buy a $40000 VW are doing it to get an everyday undercover sportscar that doesn't cost like a BMW.
Nifty little features like keyless go and navigation systems should be available for that kind of money too.

jtrujillo86 · January 2004

I agree with the notion that if VW takes too many of it's models into $30K range, they will lose a lot of people. I do believe, however, they will keep dropping the prices on some models. Take the Jetta for example: A base GL is about, what? Invoice at $15.8 and MSRP at $16.5. And the high-end GLX tops out at about $26K. That's a wide range and gives many people a ton of choices in one model. I remember when the new model Jettas came out in mid-1999, they MSRP-ed at about 18K. Same with the Golf. When I was looking for a Jetta, I saw an 03 Golf (brand new) GL two door stick for $14,100. Compared to other VW's that's a steal and is much better quality than any Kia, and better looking than any Saturn at that price point.

Jeremy

larsca · January 2004

The dollar is falling and it most likely will keep falling for the first part of '04. That means US export is booming, but anything imported will see slight price increases.

wmarto · January 2004

The Jetta, Golf and Beetle all start well under $20K, but the reason you don't see manufacturer's competing for those dollars is that they are dollars too hard earned.

These manufacturer's cannot compete with the Korean brands that are filling that price point. People buying a 4-door midsize sedan for under $20k are willing (or forced) to do with less.

barker5 · January 2004

Is there any recent information on the scheduled release of the redesigned 05 Passat?

merc1 · January 2004

I'm starting to think this whole forum has gotten ahead of itself. I seriously doubt where will be a totally new Passat in 9-10 months. Unless it debuts at the Geneva (March), Chicago (Feb), or New York (April) autoshows it isn't going to happen for 2005 at least not for the U.S. market. They just added a another engine option (diesel) for the current car. I think spring of 2005 at the earliest is more relistic, that model of course would likely be a 2006. How knows they may just ship the car this fall without an autoshow debut, but it's highly unlikely.

M

robr2 · January 2004

When I spoke to VW representatives at the Boston auto show this past November, I was told that North America will not see the new Passat until the 06 model year. Something like sedan early summer 05 and wagon late fall 05.

tim_hooligan · January 2004

I'm a bit confused here. If VW and Audi are "related" by blood, why does VW insist on going "upscale" and stepping on Audi's toes? A $30,000+ Passat has a name...it's called A4. To make the Passat "upscale" and give it Audi-like warranty and features just makes it another A4. Let's be honest, too...most people would rather have the Audi badge on their car than VW.

It just seems like duplicity to have VW offer equivocal models in both the VW and Audi names. So why would VW offer a $36k Passat when you could buy a 3.0Q A4 for the same price??? Heck, for $9k more, get the S4!!!

markcincinnati · January 2004

The models in the future will not be "as equivalent" as they may appear to be today.

The strategy is Audi guns for BMW and VW guns for Mercedes.

VW will -- according to VW management -- offer 90 - 95% of Mercedes classic luxury at 80 - 85% of the price (plus be all wheel drive, which adds big bucks to the Mercs).

This may or may not prove anything or sway your opinion -- it is more or less a statement of market positioning plans that will, apparently, become more visible with the 2005's. By the 2007's the differentiation should be considerably stronger. As many have noted, the success remains to be seen.

I am delighted at the prospect of more upscale VW's -- and also delighted at the prospect of more dynamic Audis.

I suspect there will still be less than $20K VW's -- heck even Audi is bringing the A3 to market in the US.

jasonvsu · January 2004

You suggest that VW wants to become more upscale, but what was great about VW was that it was affordable, not cheap but affordable. I like it most because it doesn't make me feel pretentious. If VW wants to be comapred to Mercedes Benz, they have to make the new VWs at least impressive in order to raise prices. The Phaeton and the Touareg are impressive.
Right now they are just nice cars, more often compared to Toyota and Honda. They have to make luxurious features available. The only popular features that are not available today are a navigation system and keyless ignition. I just think being able to start your car without sticking the key in the ignition is impressive and being impressive is what luxury is all about.

snjay · January 2004

Nissan - Infiniti
Toyota - Lexus

I wonder why VW didn't follow and launch a new brand for upmarket cars. I'm not a marketing genius but it seems to me that it would be easier to repackage an upscale jetta/passat/toureg/phaeton with a new brand name rather than try and convince the richest 3% that VW is a player in the big leagues... Toyota prettied up a camry as an es300 and sold tons of them. I know Audi is the upmarket of VW, but it seems that Audi is geared more toward sporty cars...If VW is going after Mercedes with their new VW's, why couldn't they call them something else and leave the current VW's to the remaining 97% that can afford the current lineup.

markcincinnati · January 2004

I wonder this myself. Perhaps Phaeton will be the new "implied" name.

But, look at it this way, Aurora didn't save Oldsmobile and didn't make people, who bought their Aurora's at Olds dealerships forget that they were buying a car from the Oldsmobile dealer.

You have a very interesting point -- VWGUILD, care to opine?

wstevec · January 2004

Has anyone found any updated pictures of the 2005 Passat? Thanks.

blue909 · January 2004

Just wanted to add a few comments to this interesting discussion...

VW offering new upmarket models (Phaeton) and higher content/cost versions of current models (Passat W8) does NOT automatically mean that it will soon be impossible to purchase a VW for less than US$20K... from reading a few of the prior posts, some folks actually BELIEVE that this IS/will soon be the case. As all-too-few voices of reason pointed out, GL versions (which include power windows and other amenities) of the Golf and New Beetle CAN be had for for WELL under $20K, and given that such vehicles share lots of content from their more costly VW and Audi brethren, these 'low-end' VWs represent excellent value IMHO. True, they're not quite as inexpensive as 'comparable' Japanese and American offerings, but they have their own appealing qualities that differentiate them from the pack and justify their added cost to many buyers, myself included. Whenever I'm driving around in my satin silver 2000 Golf GLS TDI fully optioned automatic (which is more of a $21K+ car pricewise, though I bought it one year old for $16K) I'm DELIGHTED with the quality of the car in almost every respect... both in the things very visible to the eye (instruments, dash materials, switchgear) and in the things that are less apparent (panel fit and finish, weight and closure of door/hood/hatch, overall solidity, etc...). Is it perfect? No of course not, but I feel that it's a very good value all things considered. And even at today's prices, a manual gas Golf GL with all of that tactile goodness will come in for a fair bit less than $20K with change to spare.

Just because VW already offers $80K+ Phaetons (W12) and will likely offer $40K versions of the B6 Passat (even if the W8 doesn't make it into the new model lineup) there's no reason to assume that new, decent near-future (A5) versions of the Golf, New Beetle and even Jetta won't continue to be available for $17-$24K (excepting specialty models like the R32, etc...). Profit margins for vehicles at that part of the market might not be as juicy for VW as $40K Passats and $50K Touregs, but there's still money to be made there, and even more importantly, it's vital for a manufacturer with such a wide range of price points as VW has to provide attractive 'entry-level' offerings for younger customers. To think VW would simply START it's model lineup with $30K Passats (let alone Jettas) in the future is just unrealistic IMHO. Of course, prices and content creep up over time, but manufacturers usually slot a new entry-level offering in at the bottom of the lineup eventually (as with Toyota's Echo and Scion brand) or offer passable 'base' models despite very thin profit margins (Nissan's Sentra and base Honda Civics). I personally wouldn't be surprised to someday see VW bring a sub-Golf car to the US market if it made economic sense to do so (a revised Lupo or Polo-class car, or maybe something from Seat or Skoda).

A few more thoughts:

Folks lamenting/cursing VW for not offering cars at the same relative price points as the original Beetle and bus: that was decades ago... the world, car markets, and buyer expectations have changed vastly since then. If you feel that VW is being too greedy charging $16-17K for a Golf or New Beetle, you're free to vote with you dollars and buy something else. Korean manufacturers now provide a number of choices in the $9-13K price range, and the quality of their products has been improving steadily.

Of course I agree that many VW dealers leave much to be desired in terms of service, and that if VW wants to cater to an increasing number of more affluent customers, they're going to have to improve customer service by several notches. Let me add that I've received crappy service from Mercedes dealers too, and the most disappointing, problem-prone (and expensive) new car I ever owned was a $50K Mercedes CLK. And of course, the nonchalant customer service of Toyota dealers is legendary, despite their reliable products. San Juan Capistrano VW has pretty good service btw, in case any of you live in SoCal. They're especially adept with TDIs, which many other VW dealers know little about.

Yes, a VW isn't as trouble-free as a Camry or Accord, I know. But bear in mind that this fact in and of itself shouldn't stand in the way of VW getting into the thick of it with Mercedes... according to CR surveys and my own experiences, MBs, Audis and BMWs are no more reliable in general than VWs are right now, yet folks still line up to shell out $30-80K to buy them.

BTW, I'm always amused when folks talk about Jettas as if they were something inherently different (better) than Golfs. Doesn't everyone savvy enough to read forums like this already KNOW that the Jetta and Golf are just about identical in every respect? The Jetta IS a Golf, except for the fact that it has a trunk instead of hatch, has differently shaped headlights, provides less rear-seat headroom, costs more, and can be had with some snazzier options/packages courtesy of VW's decision to market their small sedan as 'uplevel' from the more 'utilitarian' hatchback Golf to Americans. And this business of folks talking about the '04 Jetta like it's a new model is just as silly... just because VW ads tout it as 'new' doesn't actually mean that it's substantially different than the 2000-2003 Jetta. The NEW (A5) Jetta comes out NEXT year (as an '05 model, possibly buyable in late '04). Mechanically, the New Beetle too is very similar to the Golf and Jetta too btw, albeit with a different body/interior and a firmer base suspension.

Other interesting new/ish cars in/near the Golf/Jetta/Passat class that I saw at the recent LA autoshow: Mazda's 3 (especially the 5 door) and 6 wagon: very nice interiors and attractive price-points; Toyota's new Prius (drives amazingly well, though of course you pay a premium for the costly options packages) and Solara (sort of ugly, but even more of a poor-man's Lexus coupe at only $21-25K than the first gen Solara); Acura's new TL (I also like the smaller TSX which is based on the European Accord platform), Honda's V6 Accord coupe with 6 speed and their Element (I'm hoping for a hybrid version); Saab's 9-2 (a Subaru Impreza WRX in Saab clothing). And Scion's new tC coupe also looked very interesting too (it has the Camry's larger 4 cylinder engine, not the smaller Echo engine used in the Scion xA and xB).

Finally, I for one am very much looking forward to the new (B6) Passat. I liked the original slimmer, smoother B5 better than the current face-lifted B5.5 which is a bit too heavy on the chrome for my tastes, but it's a good car. A B6 Passat Wagon with a torquey TDI engine could very well be in my future when I'm ready for a change from the Golf and my other car (a '00 Miata with the factory sport suspension package). Of course by that time, a nice used Phaeton 8 might not cost much more than a new high-zoot Passat, so you never know! ;-)

2005 Passat

Comments

Helpful Tools

Most popular vehicles