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Comments
I guess computer programming and poping popcorn don't mix.
FYI, microwave popcorn must be attended at all times! Wooops...
04s ARE Good Deals!
05s VERY NICE!
You won't go wrong with either...
-B
Did anyone else see the review in the Boston Globe?
http://www.boston.com/cars/articles/2004/06/13/sensible_subarus_g- et_a_dose_of_daring/
If you're going on sand and you're concerned, go for the 2005.
Be prepared for some dumb looks.
-juice
I also had a fishing permit for a beach in NJ and used to drive it there regularly. I got stuck the first few times (20 psi's), but didn't have problems after airing down to about 12-13 psi's.
I just picked up an '04 fishing permit for my XT and didn't have any problems a few weekends ago. Actually, I was pretty impressed when I was in some deep sand without any tracks. I saw a Chevy ZR71 pick-up that was digging himself out. It didn't look like he aired down.
If I were in your shoes, I would go for the '05 Beaner based on the assumption that the 45/55 "default" torque split between the wheels might be better for the sand. juice and I both have manuals with a normal 50/50 split. Although, the AWD won't be in "normal" mode while you're in sand anyway. :-) The increased ground clearance and wider tires will be a plus as well.
I'll try to get some pics the next time I'm on the beach.
Oh, here are some pics of my OBS as well as a lot of other Impreza's in the Pine Barrens.
http://www.isuzu-suvs.com/events/pb02-17-02/pics/index_6.htm
Here are some pics of juice and lark6 in their Foresters:
http://www.isuzu-suvs.com/events/sia_trail/SIA_Trailride-pics-01.- - html
-Dennis
Auto Tranny - tend to agree with Juice on this one. Testdrove an auto WRX which initially seemed weak. Testdrove the same car a couple of weeks later, and was MUCH MORE livelier. Auto needs to adjust to your driving style!!!
Legacy GT vs. G35 - expect these cars to accelerate similiarly and handle similiarly with the GT being slightly faster and corner flatter. If you drove the auto, the auto might not have had time to adjust to your driving habits. Testdrive a manual, then report.
Mark
-It's probably a good thing-otherwise I might be tempted to come home with a new car instead of waiting.
The BRAT actually crossed that mud pit successfully, remember? The guy in that XT6 was nuts!
Any how, it just goes to show that for 99.9% of what you'd need, Subies are more than capable. Anything more capable will just get more stuck in more challenging situations. That Monty with the mud tires got caught on the following trip and only a tow truck could get it out.
-juice
-Dave
Perhaps as time goes on I'll be less enthusiastic, but my first impressions after about 350 miles of driving are very positive.
MPG — I tested gas mileage today by driving ‘normally’ (steady gradual acceleration, close to speed limits) along a rural highway. Speeds ranged between 45-65 with an average of a bit below 60. Over 72 miles the trip computer indicated an average MPG of 25.2. I checked the accuracy of the computer when I filled the tank for the first time and found it to be exactly on the mark. After this controlled measurement I drove another 150 miles or so on a variety of small back country roads as well as high speed limited access roads. This included a lot of stop and go driving and some moderately fast acceleration, and also use of the manual shift option. The overall MPG average for the whole trip was 23.5. Since the car now has a total of only about 350 miles on it, these MPG results seem quite respectable.
Concerning the USA Today review which said: the turbo four vibrates remarkably at idle, cackles and grumbles at low speed ... and stutters and jerks during moderate acceleration The ride is bouncy” — this does not match my experience at all. I find my XT Outback to be both smooth and quiet, almost as good as our 2002 VW Passat V6 which is quite refined. I did notice a slight stutter (but no ‘jerks’) in moderate hard acceleration up hills, but this did not seem significant to me and in part may have been caused by Pennsylvania’s infamously uneven road surfaces. Similar to the Passat, the XT is quiet at idle and smooth and quiet at highway speeds up to 80. I have no complaints here.
Since this is the break-in period I have avoided really hard acceleration and have kept the engine below 4000 rpm, but it is obvious that this car has plenty of power and it should more than satisfy all but the most aggressive drivers. There is some moderate turbo lag at low speeds but this is less pronounced than is the case with our Passat, and is not a problem for me.
Concerning the interior of the vehicle: for me the seats were comfortable over about 7 hours of driving (with some stops), though I am only 5’8” tall so this might not be the case for much taller drivers. I’m no audiophile, but the sound system seems very good, a bit better than the basic system (not Monsoon) that we have in our Passat. I like the 6-CD changer and find the buttons to be intuitive and well-placed. I have not tried the radio yet and I wish there was a satellite radio option. For that matter, I also would like an option for a GPS navigation system available this year as well.
Overall finish and details seem excellent and I have so far not discovered any defects in workmanship. I have not yet encountered the problem reported by some of rain water dropping on me off the top of the door when I exit the car. I test drove three 2005 Outbacks in a steady rain last Saturday and noticed this problem only once, although I was in and out of these cars at least ten times. The one time I was hit by water it was only a couple of drops.
I was also considering buying a Passat GLX V6 (for about the same price with heavy discounting) but decided to go with the Outback for several reasons. First, we already have a Passat so getting a second one was not very appealing. The Outback XT is not quite as refined as the Passat but is more fun to drive and,in my opinion, better looking than the Passat (which I like a lot). Finally, there are the intangibles. When I was test driving the Outback I pulled off to the side of the road to check out the audio system. As I did so, a couple of young women walked by and one of them gave an enthusiastic ‘thumbs up’ sign. I can assure you this was not directed to me, but rather was her assessment of the appeal of the Outback.
Tony T
legacy191@mn.rr.com
Tony: My email address is tutu8080@hotmail.com/ Thanks. Jason L
Quote: Still, it has been evident they could be better. Now they are. A lot. - I'd say that was positive.
End of Review: Overall: Excellent improvements to already appealing cars, but pretty pricey. - Boy, that pretty pricey quote would sure scare me off. Stop nitpicking and accept the Outback as the best value sport wagon with great reliability.
Thx! -Karen-
Mark
Can you give me your impressions on how the 05 Outback handles and feels in a moderate cross wind say about 15-25 mph? Thanks...
Also, if you test drove an 2004 Outback H6, can you compare how they stack up in the handling department. I just wanted to get your impression because the Outback XT is taller.
So many cars, so little money...
Thanks in advance.
--Sal
So, I'm going to drive them both again tomorrow and get the paperwork going when I'm done. Probably a silver VDC for a pretty impressive price (which I'll share when the deal is done.)
Thanks to everyone for their helpful resposes to my questions and the remarkable expertise, throughtfulness and sharing evident throughout this board.
Peace.
Just by number of lines you used to justify VDC, you should get VDC. Safety is on the top of your list!
--Sal
From my fairly brief test drives last Saturday, I cannot say I remember any significant difference in handling ability between the Outback XT and the LL Bean (this was the 2005 LL Bean, not the 2004), but these test drives were not on winding roads. I do remember, oddly, that the 2005 LL Bean felt and handled like a larger car than the XT. I discussed this with the salesman and we thought it might be because the large sunroof in the LL bean may alter a driver's perception of the size of the interior of the vehicle. This was probably just idiosyncratic.
More generally on handling, and something I should have mentioned in my first impressions, you do notice the high ground clearance when going around sharp curves at speed in the Outback XT. Here our Passat with its very low clearance is clearly superior. The Outback does not hug the road as well as the Passat and you have less confidence handling sharply curving roads at speed. I don't see this as a serious flaw because I am not a very aggressive driver but some drivers may be disappointed.
On the other hand, perhaps my main complaint about the Passat is that its ground clearance is TOO low for our rough rural roads -- I'm always concerned about scraping bottom and often have to proceed with caution. Our driveway drops very steeply down to our garage, and the front edge of the Passat bumper slightly scrapes bottom going in and out of the garage so we have to enter and leave very carefully. The Outback, however, handles our unusual driveway and our rough, sometimes unpaved, rural roads without difficulty.
So for me, the very high clearance of the Outback XT is a positive trade-off even though it means being a bit more careful on curves at high speed. Other drivers may not agree but a good test drive (if the vehicle is available in your area) should help you decide.
My impressions:
- The clutch is nice and smooth. Travel is a bit longish (similar to my Forester) and engagement is also very smooth.
- Shifter is nice but throws felt a little long. The sedan I drove didn't have an armrest and it almost felt like I had to angle my hand up to hold the knob.
- Shifts felt fairly positive but not like the snick-snick STi STS
- Power delivery was very linear and strong. I did notice a slight kick around 3000RPM, but the performance is closer to the Forester XT than the WRX. I had a blast merging onto the freeway.
- The taupe was okay but I didn't like the wood trim. I prefer the titanium trim of the charcoal interior.
The difference between 5EAT is pronounced when starting from a stop or accelerating coasting along at 25-30mph. With the 5MT the response is immediate with barely any noticeable turbo lag. With the 5EAT, there is a pause until the acceleration kicks in. Once the vehicles start moving, the differences seemed small.
So I'm now having some (not major) doubts about the 5EAT I have on order. I'm sill leaning towards the practicality of an auto tranny and VTD, but this last test drive gave me a taste of what I could be missing.
Thoughts? :-)
Ken
Of course I'm biased, but aside from the fact that I went with the 5MT I think you can't go wrong either way. If you spend even a little time every day in stop and go traffic go with the 5EAT. Unless of course you don't mind operating a clutch in that situation. ;-)
Also, don't forget you drove a 5EAT that wasn't yet adapted to your driving style. It should learn to kick down a little quicker, right?
Hmmm, sounds like I'm trying to convince you to get the 5EAT. LOL!
-Ian
True. All of the 5EATs I drove had less than 100 miles on them. I believe the performance will improve especially after reading Bob and juice's reviews from Vegas.
My mind is fairly made up that I want 5EAT this time. It's just the stick driver in me that's looking longingly at the 5MT.
Ken
My recommendation is to test drive both again. Do it several more times if need be. Go to different dealers if you feel awkward going back to the same dealer. I think only "as much seat time as possible" will answer your quandary.
You may even want to include the H-6 in there as another possible choice. When you're spending that kind of money, you had better be very sure that you're getting what you want.
Bob
Unfortunately (or fortunately) the one thing I am sure about is wanting a GT so no H6 in my choices.
BTW, I can see why your MT test drive quickly went off the RPM charts! It's hard to drive timidly with this vehicle.
Ken
Ken, you are entering a world of hurt!! After driving only manual transmission cars all my life and loving it, I got an auto in my 02 LL Bean. I really like it in stop and go traffic, and it's perfectly suited to the H6 engine (as it would be to the GT engine). Autos are very acceptable to me when the engine has enough power. I like the relaxed feeling you get with a smooth powertrain and auto transmission.
All that said, I rediscovered the joys of a manual transmission when I bought my WRX. To this day, I have a blast in that car and a large part of it is the shifter (STi short shifter with Kartboy bushings). Yeah, the car is powerful and fun, but I enjoy the involvement of the manual transmission best of all.
For me, it comes down to the car and the mission -- I like auto in the Bean for trips and everyday running around, and my wife only drives auto so it's more versatile. However, my short term radar is scoping out a manual transmission Outback XT as the perfect replacement for my WRX and my LL Bean. If I can install an STi short shifter and stiff bushings, I bet it would be a delight to drive.
Tell you what, why don't you list the pros and cons of auto and manual transmission for us. I'd like to interfere with your thought process as much as possible!
Craig
Thank you.
Bob <who no longer feels any guilt>
Mark
Per Craig, here are my pros and cons of each:
5MT:
+ Instant power delivery off the line
+ Lots of fun
+ Addresses this strange machismo thing with MTs
- Not 100% convinced of durability. Tranny has been strengthened but still carries lineage from 1.8 (I've had a few problems with my Forester MT)
- Uses the less sophisticated VC for AWD
- Not wife friendly at all
5EAT:
+ Wider application range: Allows for more relaxed driving for my daily commute but still delivers enough fun when needed
+ VTD
+ Wife friendly
- Vehicles I've tested seemed to have a moment of hesitation before rocketing off
Not a pro or con, but the reasons why this manual driver is considering an auto this time around are:
- 2.5T has enough power to work well with an auto
- There are 5 forward gears with Sportshift
If the GT were offered with a smaller engine or with a 4-speed auto, I probably would have gone with 5MT.
Mark: I know what you mean. Even with my Forester it becomes a chore when driving around the residential areas near my home with a stop sign every intersection. However, I do have a pretty nice commute on 280 down the Peninsula so I'm spared stop-and-go on my commutes. But then again, there's always that horrendous back up that happens the first major rain of the season.
Ken
They mentioned the hesitation of the auto.
Nice feature with the rear wiper, changing from intermittent to constant when the car is placed in reverse. Tranny changes using the steering wheel buttons even if the shifter is the 'D' position.
Turnpike
I am in the country and the base engine is not overpowered so I chose the manual. In turbo form, I think auto is a better combo.
I think that feature is only on models with automatic trannys. I know that sounds strange, but I read that somewhere.
Bob
Ken
Someone over at www.legacysti.com posted the gear ratios and rpms over a range of speeds. Unfortunately, I can't give you the direct link here but it's topic #228 (or do a search on "2.5GT turbo gear ratios").
Ken
Me, I have a manual with my WRX. If the WRX had sportshifting, I might have had second thoughts. Personally, the car seems very well paired with a manual, and driving it around is not a problem. On the occasion I drive in to work, or have a long commute through traffic, I sometimes long for an auto - Left leg gets tired and sore.
Craig
In a perfect world, I would get both as Greg suggested. The current plan I have with my wife is that we get the Leg GT wagon in 5EAT and in a couple of years when it's time to sell my wife's Jetta, she gets the Leg and I get to pick out another car of my choice.
If I went with the 5MT now, she would get the next choice.
Ken
That way "your" choice a few years down the road will be even more exciting than what's now available.
Bob
Hey, if they can ship the WRX STi over here, how about a Legacy STi?
Legacy impressions:
-- Even with 2.5i, this car is peppy. I hit the rev-limiter at first, and I think it's a combination of low-redline and how eerily QUIET this thing is - no noisy warning that it's time to shift.
-- The tranny is sweeeet - clutch is perfectly smooth even without dual-mass, shifts are pleasant. A league above my old 98 Forester, and smoother than the much improved 05 Forester. The hill-holder is bizarre and made me stall; glad the Leg doesn't have it.
-- The Legacy handling is well-behaved but muted. It felt "correct" but distant and unsatisfying for some reason. The Forester was more "sensory" and fun to toss about. I'm sure the GT would be sharper but out of my budget.
-- I'm 5'7", and I felt claustrophobic in the Legacy; the black interior played a role. Some might like the "hand-in-glove" fit, but to me the Forester was an airy relief.
Anyway, both very nice cars, in different ways. The decision will be tough (in a couple of months.)
Bart
Or, maybe even getting some field data on the durability of the strengthened 5MT...
Ken
--Sal
I sold my 98 just because of one big shortcoming: crappy clutch/tranny. The 05 remedies that well enough for me to think about getting a new one. But the Legacy is better still.