Subaru Legacy/Outback 2005+

johntracker · December 2003

Goneskiian,

I drove both the OBW 3.0R and the GT Wagon and really would have bought either. The GT was faster and handled better as you would imagine(same basic vehicle with a torque advantage, lower profile tires, lower to the ground and less weight over the nose). The Outback had greater ground clearance, a better cabin ambience (IMO) and lower sticker / insurance cost.

As this is a second car for me (and supposedly the 'sensible one') the OBW won out.

...but if I could only have one vehicle it would have been the GT Wagon.

Whichever you buy I think you win.

John

rsholland · December 2003

I see you've got a tow hitch receiver on the Outback. This now appears to be a more integrated (with the bumper) unit than what was offered in the past. What size hitch does it take?

Bob

ateixeira · December 2003

Looks like a Class I, 1.25", but can you check?

-juice

otis123 · December 2003

Thanks for the pics! BTW, wondering if the new mirrors solved the wind noise problems the previous design has had?

Thanks!

Ralph

uvdavar · December 2003

Any idea when we could see the 2005 Outback for sale in the United States?

johntracker · December 2003

Hi,

The hitch I had fitted is a 50x50mm (2"x2")receiver. I believe a 40x40 is also available.

I can't pick any wind noise from the mirrors but have not really been very fast in the car during clear weather yet. - So a cautious yes is the answer at the moment.

John

subah6 · December 2003

I've been to 130kmh (80mph) and there is no mirror wind noise with the new Outback H6.

ateixeira · December 2003

Cool, 2" is at least Class II in the US.

Could be a good sign, Bob. Just don't get your hopes up too much - tow ratings are higher in other countries.

-juice

rsholland · December 2003

I've learned my lesson some time ago, about getting too much hope too soon.

Bob

otis123 · December 2003

How is noise in general - at highway speed? A lot less than current H6 or somewhat less - assuming you've driven both.

Thanks,

Ralph

subah6 · December 2003

The new H6 is whisper quiet at cruise. The only noise is a little tyre roar on coarse chip bitumen. On smooth bitumen it is very quiet and no wind noise.

goneskiian · December 2003

Urmez (uvdavar) - Nobody knows for sure. At least those who do know aren't telling (Subaru of America that is). I think a good bet would be May or June at the earliest.

-Ian

goneskiian · December 2003

John,
Thanks for your opinion. Sounds like a GT Wagon it is as all I've got in my garage are a bunch of bicycles. ;-)

I'll have to talk to the wife about adding that Porche to the garage though! LOL!

-Ian

bugpit · December 2003

I read that production would start in March, with cars available May-June.

This page has some interesting additional info (rumors) about various things, including US engine configs and pricing of the Outback:

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread/t-449244.html

--------------excerpted from article

New Legacy/OB

/:)

Kinda good news/bad news here.

New-body Legacy & OB to be made at SIA, this spring. Expect cars at dealerships by May/June.

We will be getting the 3.0 w/4EAT or 5EAT and ~250HP (no final numbers yet, still emission testing) and the *same* old 2.5L massaged to ~175HP in the base, with 4EAT or 5MT.

Prices should be 1-3% above current models.

(^that was all the good news)

Legacy Turbo--

Will not be here until CALENDAR YEAR 2005 (!!) as either a MY 2005 or possibly a 2006 if it's late enough. :mad:

We will be getting a 2.5L turbo, (which is not the 2.0L turbo in JDM B4s & specBs), and which will not be either the USDM STi 2.5L Turbo 300/300 or the F-XT/Baja 2.5L turbo.

It will be it's own configuration, designed for "smoothness" (in his words) and with 230-250HP & 5EAT...that is all they are currently testing, he said a manual would "probably" be offered, and it "might" be a 6MT, but it would *not* be the same as the STi's 6MT which is both too heavy and too expensive.

He said the delay in the Leg Turbo was twofold-- one, to push sales of the New-Body N/A 3.0 OBs and (possible) 3.0GTs; and two, to give them time to sort the emissions and find a "comfortable" HP figure for the 2.5L turbo that won't compromise STi sales, but will still be enough to attract enough buyers who want a "sporty" 2.5L Turbo Legacy.
--------------excerpted from article

njswamplands · December 2003

legacy and STi are two different types of buyers in my book.

rsholland · December 2003

STi and Legacy turbo buyers are different. STi customers want a street brawler; Legacy turbo buyers want comfort and speed. These are two distinctly different audiences.

Bob

glycinemax · December 2003

What do y'all think the chances are of the following minor things making it to the U.S. spec. Legacy and OBs?

Datadots
Immobilizer
Front door, cloth side, lower outer corner red lights
Side mirror incorporated directionals
Open wagon hatch interior drop down center red light
Full size spare
Lower body grey cladding on 2.5 OBs
Rear LED fog
Side curtains on 2.5s (or as option)
Amber rear directionals

rangner · December 2003

None of them are too costly--Why not?

Eric

ateixeira · December 2003

Are rear fogs allowed everywhere?

-juice

sube555lgt · December 2003

Bugpit, a good bit of that has been proven either partially correct or completely false by a more than one person.

subah6 · December 2003

Glycinemax,

The following are what I know are on our Oz models or available in certain spec levels:

Datadots - yes all models
Immobilizer - yes yes all models
Front door, cloth side, lower outer corner red lights - don't know what you mean?
Side mirror incorporated directionals - yes all
Open wagon hatch interior drop down center red light - don't know what you mean?
Full size spare - yes all
Lower body grey cladding on 2.5 OBs - black on the Oz spec
Rear LED fog - no
Side curtains on 2.5s (or as option) - yes on the premium pac
Amber rear directionals - yes all

glycinemax · December 2003

Subah6,
Thanks for the responses.

"Front door, cloth side, lower outer corner red lights - don't know what you mean?" Can't find pic right now. Was a Frankfurt show amateur pic taken that showed when the front doors are open there was a red light that came on to help others see that a door was open. Typically a higher end feature. Here is a link to a pic... lower right is speaker and lower left is red light I'm talking about... http://www.subaru.de/legacy-s14-15-big.jpg

"Open wagon hatch interior drop down center red light - don't know what you mean?"
Here is a link to a pic, click on "Zobacz Wiecej" in lower right corner and then the pic is the one second from last http://www.subaru.pl/subaru_outback.html

"Rear LED fog - no" Are each LED bank stuffed entirely with white LEDs, used as regular brake lamps, not even present, or? Looks like Oz spec. has filament bulbs for reverse lights.

"Side curtains on 2.5s (or as option) - yes on the premium pac" Seems some countries have 'em standard, some as an option, and some only avail. on the more costly models. With Honda making all bags standard by 2006 I hope all US spec. Legacy and OBs get them at least as a stand-alone option.

otis123 · December 2003

It would be a grave mistake for Subaru not to put curtain bags in every 2005 Legacy/Outback trim level - and socially irresponsible.

Two nights ago in my town a 16 yr. old girl, driving too fast, smashed into a large oak sideways - right into the driver's door. Wrapped the car right around the tree - penetration into the cabin looked like it was close to 2 feet in. Emergency crews were shocked she was alive. Minor injuries. 2002 Jetta with curtain and side air bags. Saved her life. For a few hundred $$$...

BTW, my 2001 LLBean has the red light on the door.

Ralph

ateixeira · December 2003

Wow, that is a very rare scenario. How did she get sideways?

That almost would argue for standard stability control, more likely to help in that type of situation.

Side AB are usually for impacts from other vehicles that run a light.

-juice

rangner · December 2003

yeah I can see side air bags standard for every model, but curtain air bags as optional or standard only on lux models.

The bottom line is whatever the safety/collision avoidance systems on vehicles, there are those who are pent on driving irresponsibly. For those folks, the best thing is to let someone else drive.

Eric

otis123 · December 2003

juice-
Light, misty rain, going around a corner too fast, just slid sideways right into the tree.

rangner-
yeah, but at 16 you don't know better, so it's good to have a system there to give you another chance...

Ralph

rangner · December 2003

the debate is hackneyed...I think everything that could be said already has been.

I personally drive a car without side air bags and I feel safe enough. And I am currently looking for a little beater miata to take to work. Those who are safety OC can go buy from a manufacturer like Volvo--40K wagon. you can always go one step further, but cars have to be economical. I don't want to pay for the worried mind of a minority.

Eric

johnclineii · December 2003

And some day you might make that statement from the cemetery. Your heirs will appreciate the $300 or so you saved...

rangner · December 2003

Hey, you can't take it with you right? ;-)

I think everyone understands that there has to be a stopping point somewhere in making every possible safety feature standard--and economical.

I never said cut out front side and curtain air bags, just leave them optional, for those of us who feel safe enough with regular front air bags.

Some people will abuse the safety features and drive even more recklessly because their rationale is: Hey I've got AWD and VDC and 3 kinds of air bags--I can drive as fast and crazy as I want and avoid injury.

Point being--My grandpa used to drive in MN with bald tires--no treads. He never got stuck in the snow and would pass those off the road going too fast with snow tires. Yes, increase the standard safety equip but don't go overboard with it. I think more change needs to happen with people's driving habits than filling the car with unlimited air bags etc etc.

For instance, does everyone want to pay extra for a Blaupunkt stereo system in a car? NO, In the same way, I shouldn't have to pay for Side air bags or curtain air bags if I don't want to, and if it isn't required by law.

Just give everyone a choice.

Eric

subah6 · December 2003

Glycinemax,

"Open wagon hatch interior drop down center red light." This is not a light but a reflector with 24 red reflective dots. The drop down part is actually a screen which mates with the cargo cover blind so that the cargo area is completely covered and the cargo blind itself has a straight edge and does not have to be curved to match with the curve of the wagon door.

"Front door, cloth side, lower outer corner red lights." Yes this light is on our doors.

johnclineii,

"And some day you might make that statement from the cemetery. Your heirs will appreciate the $300 or so you saved..."

What you say is true except that, unfortunately, to get side and curtain air bags in the premium H6 over the standard spec H6 you have to spend AU$7500 (US$5500) to get that spec level, not $300. You cannot option only the side/curtain air bags.

johnclineii · December 2003

Eeek. Shades of what Mazda NA does in the USA.

ateixeira · December 2003

Give 'em a year or two, it'll trickle down.

-juice

otis123 · December 2003

Side curtain air bags in the news again. Either Subaru is smart and leads the way or follows as a second rate manufacturer. Whether you agree or not, as boomers (the consumers with the $ to buy new cars) age, safety leads the list... And protecting ones head is at the top of the list...

NYTimes 12/8/03:

"Under the plan, automakers agreed to side-impact safety standards that would essentially require them to equip their vehicles with air bags that keep passengers' heads from slamming into doors when a car is struck on the side. About a quarter of 2004 models offer side air bags as standard equipment, but some offer protection only to the chest.

The Insurance Institute has said that such equipment could save 45 percent of the drivers who are killed when their passenger cars are hit by other vehicles on the side. Accidents in which large pickups and S.U.V.'s strike cars in the side are particularly deadly for car occupants.

Half of new vehicles will undergo the tests by 2007, or the 2008 model year, and all by 2009, or the 2010 model year.

"I wouldn't buy a vehicle without side air bags with head protection," Stephen T. Kozak, a top safety engineer at the Ford Motor Company said in an interview this week. He added that when his brother recently bought a vehicle without side air bags, he told him to "take it back right now."

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Ralph

rockncroll · December 2003

Safety, Value, Reliability. These were the main factors considered when I bought my Subaru in 95. Having AWD standard is what put it over the top. What’s gonna make me buy another Subaru? Same thing - Safety, Value, Reliability and AWD!

Safety features like side curtain airbags are critical, especially with kids; and especially when competitors are making them available now. They are there to protect you from the bad drivers out there. They are not intended to be a license to drive recklessly. Neither should they be a luxury item. Simply put, they should be standard.

Subaru used to be the only AWD wagon. Now the wagon market is exploding. Sadly, I’m letting my MBNA closeout coupon expire on New Year's Eve because it’s taken Subaru almost 10 years to actually “redesign” the Legacy - and its not even a dramatic change! IMHO, the new styling is pleasant enough, but it’s not innovative or exciting. The B4 looks like a lot of other 4dr sedans out there. I suppose the Legacy won’t see any real design innovation for at least another 5 years.

So who’s buying the 2005? While Subaru must go after the performance enthusiast market, I think the average buyer is just plain vanilla (At 65 MPH, the base engine will get there the same time the turbo does). Turbos are a good way to get attention, but they are a small niche market. Models like the Legacy SE are the value leaders for the average buyer and should be heavily promoted in 2005. Yeah, I’d spring for the an SE package w/sunroof and alloy wheels (if it’s a good deal); as long as Subaru doesn’t make me buy a larger engine, Macintosh and leather to get it. And if Subaru resists on making side curtain airbags standard, an SE model is probably the best place to put them.

Subaru would be shooting itself in the foot if doesn’t take this opportunity to put out the best car with the best features available. There's just too much product out there. I bought my wagon for safety, reliability, value and AWD. I hope to be able to say the same thing about my next one – and I hope it will be a Subaru.

mylegacy · December 2003

Have anyone of you heard or tried the "Tornado" fuel saver? It's a on TV thing that I saw the other night. save fuel n boost hp?

Anyway
Should check this link out for some 3D legacy:
http://accessory.subaru.co.jp/legacy/3d/3d.html#top

click either sedan or wagon(enter).

hondafriek · December 2003

Anybody gullible enough to believe the claims for these things, I have an interprovincial bridge that goes across the Ottawa river that I can sell cheap :-)

Cheers Pat.

rangner · December 2003

What do you mean by

"and its not even a dramatic change! IMHO, the new styling is pleasant enough, but its not innovative or exciting"?

Is your idea of innovation just styling? What about the addition of variable valve timing, an all new 5-speed auto w/ sportshift and a 4-speed auto w/ sportshift? And the turbo option? Gas mileage is also supposed to go up while hp& torque will too.

BTW have you ever driven a turbocharged car? From my understanding the new subaru turbos have greatly deduced lag and improved performance.
I'd say you'll feel a tremendous difference between the NA and turbo from 0-65mph.

Eric

rockncroll · December 2003

Yes, I did say that the “styling… is not innovative or exciting” to me. Some reviewers agree calling it “more evolutionary than revolutionary”. Laurance Yap said that "despite being all-new …the new Legacy looks an awful lot like the old one… Elegant and timeless undoubtedly, but it's also less than I might have expected given an all-new model, and Subaru's stated intention to become a design leader.”

Just like in matters of the heart, it’s usually the “package” that first catches the eye - so it helps when a “new” car looks really “new”. That’s why I won’t buy an ‘04 – it’s just too much like my ’95. Of course, looks alone don’t close a sale and Subaru has done much to improve the Legacy from the inside out. But it’s the B9 that’s dramatic, not the B4! That’s all I’m saying.

Also, I totally respect your passion and enthusiasm about performance. But for me, it would be all too easy (and tempting) to push a turbo way beyond the speed limit. The last speeding ticket I got (5 points) will be the last one I ever get - because of higher insurance costs. So just give me a solid meat and potatoes NA vehicle with the best bang for the buck. The turbo is just icing on the cake. It’s great, but I'm gonna skip dessert.

The real question is will Subaru give the consumer better value, safety, and reliability than their competitors or will the new Legacy get lost in the shuffle? I know that Subaru can deliver – we’ll just have to wait and see if their US offerings do.

ateixeira · December 2003

I think the Legacy is very handsome, kind of like the Acura TSX and Mazda6, sporty and wedge-shaped.

As for ground breaking, look how ugly Bangle has made newer Bimmers. No thanks.

Andreas Zapatinas' concepts like the B11S and B9 Scrambler point to a more stylish and controversial future, but the Legacy and Outback are Subaru's bread and butter, so don't be surprised if they convert these to the new radical look last.

-juice

redkey1 · December 2003

I do not think the current and 2005 legacy's look alike at all. Current version is somewhat boring in sedan form, while the 2005 is quite a good looking car IMO.

ateixeira · December 2003

It's a lot sharper, with a couple of nice highlights to keep things interesting.

Keep in mind I own a 2002. Side-by-side mine looks old, suddenly.

-juice

hondafriek · December 2003

The new legacy is a pretty good looking car, sure you can see traces of the current model in the styling but for me at least this is good, especially as juice says look the new bimmers butt ugly IMHO.

Honda Accord has been evolutional rather that revolutional from day one and it has not hurt them one bit, you want boring look at the new Malibu it is so much like the old one it is unbelieveable this is a new car, and as for the stupid chrome bars on the grill and trunk well we won't go there.

Cheers Pat.

ateixeira · December 2003

Silly, too, because underneath the new Malibu is a new 9-3 platform and even the engine is much improved. I hate the styling, too, though the car itself is actually pretty good.

-juice

johnclineii · December 2003

Breakthrough styling? Well, the Aztek certainly did catch eyes.

I agree with the others. This is one case where evolutionary is actually for the best.

mylegacy · December 2003

Are there really 13 speakers for the new Legacy?
that would be s sweet.

bugpit · December 2003

mylegacy - my understanding is that the outback/legacy have six speakers, even in the premium package. The 13 speaker rig is on a different model (don't remember which one at the moment).

sebberry · December 2003

The Legacy GT Premium Pack (Subaru Australia) gets the 13 speaker setup with the McIntoch system.

Enjoy

ateixeira · December 2003

I could care less about the actual number as long as it sounds good. The Mac does. :-)

-juice

otis123 · December 2003

Has anyone seen a pic of the new Outback sedan? Can't find it on any of the global sites - they only have the wagon or the Legacy sedan. Is it only sold in the US?

Also, anyone hear if Subaru is going to go to 36 months, unlimited miles warranty in the US market? 36 mo. 36,000 bites....my LLBean was up in 2 years...

Thanks,

Ralph

ateixeira · December 2003

I doubt the warranty will change, to be honest.

Patti said they actually lose money selling Gold warranties, but it helps establish loyalty. That woul push the prices up too high at a time when most are asking for more content already.

-juice

Subaru Legacy/Outback 2005+

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