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Subaru Legacy/Outback 2005+

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Comments

  • c_hunterc_hunter Member Posts: 4,487
    I believe the 5MT is about 1 second quicker to 60mph, but can't remember where I saw the numbers.

    For best performance, put the 5EAT in sport mode (slide the lever left into the +/- gate but do not shift manually). It will shift a heck of a lot better. After driving both 5MT and 5EAT, I felt the 5MT was average but the 5EAT was the most impressive auto trans I have driven. The way it snaps off shifts under hard acceleration is pretty amazing.

    In general, any car I have driven feels faster with manual transmission, so I'm not surprised to hear what you felt -- it makes sense to me. Of course, the 5EAT will snap off shifts faster and better than most drivers can do with the 5MT, so that will offset some of the difference. generaly though, turbo lag is worse in autos.

    Not sure why the auto is rated for lower mpg, other than the fact that there are more internal losses with an auto trans. Still, the overall gearing in 5th is a lot lower on the auto trans, so I would expect the lower RPM to translate into less fuel consumption. Curious...

    Craig
  • samiam_68samiam_68 Member Posts: 775
    The auto OBXT is rated at 7.1 sec 0-60 by Car and Driver.
    Lower RPM at highway speeds does not improve gas mileage. The torque and power bands of the engine determine the MPG. The 2.5 turbo is more efficient at 3000 RPM than at 2600 RPM, hence it uses less fuel to propel the car at 60 MPH with the MT than with the AT.
  • k2rmk2rm Member Posts: 205
    The 5EAT is a pretty cool transmission. I did try putting it the sport mode but it didn't feel like it shifted very quickly. I even tried manually shifting the car with the autostick and I was surprised how long it took to shift from first to second. The automatic only had 13 miles on it so maybe it still needs to break in. The manual had about 200 miles.

    Does the 5EAT have a lockup torque converter?

    I am seriously considering one of these but I am going back and forth between the MT and auto. Right now I am leaning toward the manual for the better performance and whopping additional 1mpg. But, it would sure be nice to have the automatic when commuting in traffic. Decisions, decisions ...
  • dsattlerdsattler Member Posts: 135
    I installed mine in five minutes. Ignore the instructions that twell you to remove the rear ashtray if you don't have one. Just pop off the panel where the ashtray would be if you had one. The screws you need to remove are very obvious. Seriously, five minutes, impossible to mess up.
  • c_hunterc_hunter Member Posts: 4,487
    Yes the 5EAT has a lockup torque converter.

    If it weren't for traffic, I would have chosen a 5MT myself -- I have always preferred MT. However, this was a case where the AT alternative was pretty decent and I had been getting tired of sitting in stop and go traffic with the MT in my WRX. So all of a sudden it was an easier decision to go auto for once in my life.

    BTW, the 5EAT adapts to your driving style, so a car with only 13 miles on it would be very untrained. It would get better after a week or so of your own particular habits.

    The manual shifting is not very quick most of the time, but other times it surprises me. So it must depend on exactly what type of shift you are trying. Personally, I leave it in sport mode most of the time and let it shift by itself, only using the steering wheel buttons if I want an instant downshift for passing, etc...

    Craig

    edit: one more tidbit -- auto trans is better for offroad driving
  • jchujchu Member Posts: 18
    Yes, I tried it agian, like you said, not more than 5 min. and it's done. Thanks for the tip. The armrest just OK, not that long than I expected.
  • kenskens Member Posts: 5,869
    I went through the exact same decision process of MT and AT and went with 5EAT for my Legacy GT wagon.

    Like Craig writes, there's no substitute for a manual transmission if performance is your main goal. You'll always be able to shift exactly at the moment you wish and the engine will respond better. That's a given, and if you go to enthusiast sites, it'll seem like everyone's going to champion a manual tranny.

    But then there's everyday life: traffic, spouses that don't drive stick, feeling lazy, parallel parking on double-diamond steep slopes of San Francisco, etc. For many people, it doesn't make sense to have to row your own gears all the time.

    In my case the factors that led me to chose 5EAT were, in order:
    - Wife friendly
    - Still faster than most manual tranny vehicles in it's class
    - Well above average compared to auto trannies in and even above it's price range (5-cogs, full manual mode, Sport mode, steering wheel buttons)
    - Smooth and responsive
    - Better AWD system than in the 5MT model
    - The manual tranny on Subarus are average at best compared to those in it's price range

    The 5EAT with less than 1000 miles is going to be fairly relaxed in it's responses and unfortunately, that's exactly what one gets to test drive at dealers. I noticed a significant change in how my 5EAT responds over the break-in period. In normal auto mode, the shifts hold rpms longer and it downshifts more aggressively than it did when new.

    I've been quite happy with my gas mileage. For my daily commute, I get about 23mpg where my previous 5MT Forester got about 24mpg. On a recent road trip of long-distance highway driving, I was averaging 26mpg. Not bad for a slushbox wagon with 250HP.

    Ultimately, what sold me was a test drive back-to-back on a 5MT and 5EAT GT through some twisty backroards. Shifting back and forth between 3rd and 4th, the two were equally responsive and power was always right there. That's what was more important to me than accelerating in a straight line. In fact, it was nicer with the 5EAT since I could shift off the steering wheel and the shifts came so smoothly. And when I had to head back to the dealership through stop-and-go traffic, I just clicked the lever back to full auto and crawled along. Perfect.

    So, if you're willing to give up some performance for a whole lot more flexibility, the 5EAT is a good choice.

    Oh, and the TC locks up in 3rd through 5th gears.

    Ken
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    13miles is a bit early. It takes a while to breakin/learn give it 1000 miles before it's learned your driving style. I believe it locks up in 3rd 4th and 5th, but not positive.

    -mike
  • snowbirdsnowbird Member Posts: 120
    Craig

    This may sound like a silly question, but since the 5EAT is supposed to adapt to the driver's style of driving, how would it respond if there are two constant different drivers, e.g. husband and wife. In my case, my wife is the more aggressive driver! Snowbird
  • kenskens Member Posts: 5,869
    Snowbird,

    I'd guess that 5EAT will take the weighted average of your driving styles!

    Nothing wrong with having it learn an aggresive style. It makes it all that more fun!

    Ken
  • kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 235,188
    Exactly how adaptive is it? Does it have a long memory, or is it just reacting to the way you've been driving it since you last started it? I'm interested to know.. does anyone know for sure? juice?

    regards,
    kyfdx

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  • rob_mrob_m Member Posts: 820
    I believe that once it is set, it stays. The only way to reset is to disconnect the battery.
  • kenskens Member Posts: 5,869
    My understanding is that the TCU, much like the ECU, is constantly learning by averaging in recent conditions to some given history. If you drive it one way long enough, that's what it'll expect.

    Disconnecting the battery causes the TCU/ECU to forget it's history allowing it to adapt against a pre-set map.

    Ken
  • kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 235,188
    I like this answer... I'd like to think.. that after your wife has puttered around all afternoon, that you can jump in the car and start bombing around, and within 3-4 miles, the car will recognize what is going on..

    I just have doubts about any long term memory..

    regards,
    kyfdx

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  • luck11luck11 Member Posts: 425
    One less on that fence now! Just negotiated a price over the phone for 05 OBXT, MT, Garnet Red. Only Red XT avail in eastern Canada if you can believe it!

    Now, I know some of you are going to think I'm nuts for buying a XT with 150 miles on it, but, like I said, Red was it for my wife (and for me as far as monotones go), and no other local dealer could come close to the bottom line price (including my trade in). The deal is conditional until I have a chance to inspect the car to ensure no scratches, dings etc. Figure I'll have the car in a few days.

    BTW, this is the 2nd time I have negotiated price for a new vehicle over the phone (never would of thought of it if it wasn't for reading a post in Edmunds!). Works like a charm and avoids having to sit through the "negotiating process" at a dealership. The sales document is also being faxed to me for signature. The other advantage is that this method lets you bounce numbers back and forth between dealerships.

    BTW #2....the 16" winter wheels and tires from my 2000 OB will fit on the 05s. Confirmed with dealer. 225/60/16 is equivalent to the 225/55?/17 on current OBs. This helped make the decision of OB over GT....16" will not fit on GT because of larger rotor/caliper and no 17" steel wheels (OEM or aftermarket) available for winter...would have to spend a ton to get a 2nd set of alloy.(not in my budget).

    OK, I'm just a little excited. Got to go. Have to call the tint shop to schedule an appt for tint!

    Cheers!
    Jay.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    It's getting lonely here on The Fence.

    Congats Jay.

    OB or Forester?

    I have a conclusive way to decide which one you should get.

    Look at your current vehicle. What condition is it in? Be brutally honest.

    If you beat it up, abuse it, get it dirty and leave it that way, might as well get a Forester. They take the abuse and cost less to begin with.

    If you keep it so clean you could eat off the valve covers, go ahead and pay a little more for the premium interior. You will truly appreciate it.

    End of story. :o)

    -juice
  • lumbarlumbar Member Posts: 421
    Just came back from a trip to the local dealer. After walking around looking at the inventory (handkerchief in hand to prevent drooling) and talking to the staff, it appears that there are -plenty- of Bean editions to be had and not a great variety of XTs, particularly with 5EAT. A look at the fitzmall inventory seems to confirm this as well. I guess a reasonable question is whether Bean sales are down, and to what extent the volume of sales for the XT is drawn from at least some people who would have bought Beans.

    I'm sure there's no clear answer to this and that the turbo has brought in new Subaru buyers who otherwise would've gone elsewhere, but I did get the impression from talking to the salesperson that they are also thinking that some portion of XT buyers would've been Bean buyers had there been no XT.

    It will be interesting to see over time if this is reflected in price (someone posted that this seems to be the case already to an extent), and whether even more significant discounts crop up over time for the Bean.
  • kenskens Member Posts: 5,869
    I'm not suprised the XT is eating into Bean sales. With the previous model, OB buyers that wanted more power, but didn't want the top VDC model opted for the Bean. Now with the XT delivering more useable power than the H6 and offering a much improved interior, the Bean really caters more towards those who want a tad more luxry and have to have a 6.

    Ken
  • newsubielegacynewsubielegacy Member Posts: 4
    It works for me. Try changing the speed that you do the buckle/unbuckle.

    Anyone know how to reverse the procedure and add the chime back?
  • kenskens Member Posts: 5,869
    I first did it very fast after having read somewhere that it needed to be done within 30 seconds. Then I tried it slowly, giving it about 1-2 seconds between each cycle so that the seatbelt icon would light up again.

    I've made absolutely sure I did it 20x too.

    Hasn't worked for me.

    I'll trade you my chime for your lack thereof!

    Ken
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    I believe the learning process constantly updates and averages in your current driving. Disconnecting the battery will allow you to re-set the learning process.

    -mike
  • tsytsy Member Posts: 1,551
    I have notice my computer mileage and actual mileage have been off by 1mpg. Is it because my fuel injectors are delivering more than they're supposed to? Do people with the engine hesitation have the same problem with the mileage computer, or are yours pretty accurate? Maybe my engine is running richer than it's supposed to.

    Just curious. I'm pretty happy with the mileage I'm getting especially considering all the hills and traffic I drive in.

    I haven't tried the seatbelt chime thing. Maybe I'll try this weekend.

    tom
  • luck11luck11 Member Posts: 425
    Juice, thanks. Its the OB XT LTD. Going to inspect it at lunch today to ensure there is no damage/wear.

    XTs vs Bean: I would say the opposite up here. Less Beans (called 3.0 VDC up here) than XTs, but not sure if that is because fewer were delivered, or more Beans are selling.

    Cheers.
    Jay.
  • luck11luck11 Member Posts: 425
    Has anyone determined whether its possible to hook up an IPOD or MP3 player directly to the stock deck on the 05s, not using an FM modulator? If so, any step by step out yet?

    I would venture, but would probably destroy many parts in the process.

    Cheers,
    Jay
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Performance sells more than luxury.

    It's a message Subaru needs to hear loud and clear.

    Read in another thread that Jay bought the XT, congrats buddy!

    -juice
  • sdufordsduford Member Posts: 577
    Just to add my two cents to the discussion regarding transmission choices. Today I test drove the following cars back-to-back:

    Outback XT 5MT
    Outback XT 5EAT
    Outback H6 5EAT

    In my opinion if you are going with the Turbo, you MUST take the 5MT. If you're going for the turbo you are obviously looking for sport and top performance, which the 5MT will provide in spades. With the 5MT you can "manage" the turbo lag and keep the engine in or out of the boost as you want. Especially coming off the line, where you can rev it up into the boost range before letting go of the clutch.

    I found the turbo with the 5EAT to be somewhat of a Jekkyl & Hyde car and that would annoy me in the long run. Especially from a standing start, where you floor it and you get the response of an anemic 4 cylinder, then when it hits 3500RPM it's hold on to your hat supercharged-V6-like acceleration. I find that annoying if not dangerous when merging into traffic. The only thing that makes it bearable is the ability to down shift from the steering wheel.

    Then I tried the Outback H6 VDC and I found the combination of the H6 and 5EAT very very nice. The broad torque band of the H6 means it reacts well at pretty much any RPM. It provides a much smoother experience, especually in traffic. It is also quite a bit smoother and quieter on the highway and I suspect it would also do much better off-road.

    Since I am not looking for a sports car but for a high performance highway cruiser that can competently handle the rough and snowy 5Km dirt road that leads to my house, I think the H6 is much more appropriate for me. It is a tad more fuel efficient too!

    I have to admit the XT 5MT was fun though, but it would just get me in trouble :)

    Now I have to decide if the etra $6K Cdn of the VDC over the 3.0R is worth it. That buys you leather, sunroof, upgraded stereo with sub, Momo steering wheel with wood trim, and of course, the VDC!
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Keep in mind the 5EAT improves once it learns your driving style. The ones we drove at the Vegas Motor Speedway had been driven aggressively and really did a great job holding a gear and shifting quickly on the track.

    Also, did you try the Sport mode?

    -juice
  • zman3zman3 Member Posts: 857
    Sorry for being so late to the game but I just realized that the test drive packet I received from Subaru quite a while ago has one of the 3/36 maintenance coupons in it. It is only good until September 30th so if you haven't yet taken delivery of your vehicle and you want the certificate speak up. First one to speak up gets it. We may have to arrange to FedEx it or something like that however. I'm in Minneapolis if it matters.

    Karl
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    For those with new Legacy GTs and Outbacks (Ken, Craig, etc.), got a request/question for you all:

    If you feel up to the task, some day check to see if one of your full-size tire will fit into the spare tire well of your new '05 models.

    I'm pretty sure the Legacy's 215/45x17 will fit, as the Aussie models I believe have full-size spares. It's the Outback models, with their larger 225 (16" & 17") tires that I'm curious about. As you recall, the last generation US-spec Outback, with its larger 225 tire (other markets use a 215 tire, and that size will fit the spare tire well) would not fit in the spare tire well. I'm wondering that's been corrected for the new '05 models.

    Bob
  • sdufordsduford Member Posts: 577
    Hi Juice, yes I actually had it in sport mode for most of the drive. I'm sure it works fine on a track or going down a twisty mountain road. It is fine and works quite well in that type of situation, but then again, the 5MT would be more fun anyway.

    My problems with it were more related to normal daily driving in city traffic where you will encounter stop-and-go situations or trying to squeeze into a hole from a very slow speed. I think the abrupt on/off nature of the turbo/5EAT and the lack of power at very low RPM would get very annoying.

    If yuu want the ultimate in sport, performance and fun, go XT/5MT. If you want drivability, performance and comfort, go H6/5EAT. I find the H6 3.0/5EAT to be a much better combination than the XT/5EAT, but that is my personal taste, YMMV.
  • geneshkgeneshk Member Posts: 2
    May I take the offer?
    Thanks!
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I don't think the manual was any more fun. Perhaps having the automatic allowed me to concentrate more on the track itself, and steering instead of shifting.

    The auto didn't give up anything to the manual in that situation, just MHO.

    I generally prefer manuals (all 3 of our cars are MT) but the well-broken in auto was just as fun at the Vegas Speedway.

    Bob: just for reference, a 205/60R15 tire does fit in the spare tire well of our 2002 Legacy. The new tires are bigger so let's see if those would fit. I bet they will for the 2.5i Legacy, likely not on any of the Outbacks, though.

    -juice
  • kenskens Member Posts: 5,869
    Tom,

    I think others have reported that the trip computer is "optimistic" by about 1mpg. Either it's underestimating the amount of fuel the engine uses or it's overestimating the amount of ground covered.

    I haven't checked myself yet, though.

    Ken
  • kenskens Member Posts: 5,869
    Jay,

    Craig here has connected his iPod to the head unit using a wired FM modulator. An even more braver soul over at Legacygt.com has tapped into the CD changer and hardwired his iPod (pics too).

    Since I'm not as comfortable tinkering around the audio, I'm going to wait until the process is well documented and tested. It'll be only a matter of time until there's a relatively easy solution out there.

    Ken
  • kenskens Member Posts: 5,869
    Without a doubt, the 5MT+turbo is much more responsive off the line. I test drove several and there is very little turbo lag and the responsiveness is addictive. If you want the most of the engine, the manual is for you.

    However, I'd like to shed some light on the 5EAT + turbo combination. Unfortunately, most test drives at dealers (and even on some reviews) are run on "green" vehicles with few miles. The 5EAT when not haven been driven much (<1000 miles)shifts rather conservatively at low RPMs further exacerbating turbo lag.

    Over time with a spirited driver, the 5EAT starts to delay shifts and holds RPMs higher (even in Sport mode). The Dr. Jekyl and Mr. Hyde phenomenon is significantly reduced. I'd hardly say my GT wagon feels like an anemic 4-banger at low RPMs. It's too bad people rarely get to try out a fully broken in 5EAT.

    The H6+5EAT combo is a smooth and good choice. However in my test drives, I didn't find it had as useable a torque band as the H4 turbo + 5EAT combo. I think the lack of the turbo lag gives the impression of a broader torque curve when in reality, it has a narrower one.

    Ken
  • kenskens Member Posts: 5,869
    Bob,

    I'll try it the next time I rotate my tires. Wasn't there some foam padding that needed to be removed with the previous model?

    Ken
  • fandcfandc Member Posts: 51
    I too have a 3/36 coupon that I had hoped to use myself but now won't. It's a little crumpled 'cos it's been in my backpack with all of the other 2005 literature for the GT.

    Send me your snail mail address via kc0etl at yahoo dot com.

    Rob
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Yes, Ken, I removed a foam piece, basically "filler", above the old donut spare. The full-size spare occupies the whole space so you don't need the foam. It's all covered anyway.

    There is a chance even the GT's tires will fit, overall diameter is not that big, really. The Outback's tires have a bigger diamater, which is why I do not think those will fit.

    -juice
  • luck11luck11 Member Posts: 425
    Thanks Ken. I too am hesitant about doing my own mods until the procedure has been well tested. I'll leave it to someone more mechanically inclined to test, and hopefully, they will be kind enough to share their experiences and knowledge with the rest of us.

    Thanks Juice. Just came back from inspecting and test driving my red OB XT LTD, and everything was perfect, except for a small, barely noticeable scratch on the silver ashtray cover. I am going nuts in anticipation of getting behind the wheel when it is officially my car!!

    Cheers.
    Jay.
  • sdufordsduford Member Posts: 577
    Ken, thanks for the insight, I'll have to take your word for it.

    I would really like to see some actual torque curves for both engines. I doubt very much the Turbo has a flat torque curve, I think the torque only comes in when the turbo finally spools up and then it comes on with a vengeance. While the H6 certainly has less torque and it does peek at a slightly higher RPM, I would guess, from common sense and from my test drives, that the H6 produces significantly more torque in the 1000-2000 RPM band, perhaps even a bit higher than that. Now, that is based on my driving impressions, perhaps actual torque curves will prove me wrong.

    I also recently test-drove a Volvo S40 T5, and THAT engine does have a very broad torque band, producing full torque from 1500 RPM on up, and you can certainly feel it. But that engine uses much less turbo boost than the Subaru does, and the Turbo seems to spool up at a lower RPM.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    In tests the Legacy has been quicker. Oddly enough it's at very high speeds where the Volvo begins to catch up. Keep in mind it's only FWD, too.

    The turbo needs a load to spool up. At whatever rpm, you hit the throttle and the "lag" they refer to is that split second that it takes for it to spool up.

    The H6 will have more immediate throttle response, because it doesn't have to spool up. I has more displacement and a higher compression ratio than the turbo does off boost.

    So there are trade-offs, but it is interesting that there seems to be a preference for turbos.

    -juice
  • c_hunterc_hunter Member Posts: 4,487
    To me, the most impressive feature of the 5EAT with the turbo is the way it upshifts under full throttle. It's pretty cool, I have never experienced anything like it (manual or auto).

    Craig
  • c_hunterc_hunter Member Posts: 4,487
    Yeah, check the other LegacyGT forum where we have worked out a few good solutions. I'm at the point where I am almost ready to have some interface boards fabbed, which would allow us to insert RCA input jacks inline with the CD-changer connection. Play a blank CD and you can pipe anything you want into the radio -- iPod, DVD, etc...

    Right now, I am using an FM modulator with very good results. I also posted details on that.

    Craig
  • kenskens Member Posts: 5,869
    Unfortuantely, there are no torque/HP graphs available for the USDM engines but below are the graphs for the JDM versions just to get an idea of how the two might differ:

    H6
    http://www.subaru.co.jp/legacy/touringwagon/mechanism/06/index.ht- ml

    Twin-scroll H4 turbo
    http://www.subaru.co.jp/legacy/touringwagon/mechanism/07/index.ht- ml

    In both graphs, the blue line is the torque curve. The H6 torque grows gradually to it's peak at 4000RPM and then tapers down from that point.

    The H4 turbo at 1600 RPM is at about the same level as the H6, but by 2500 RPM, it's already making well past the H6 at it's peak.

    The larger displacement of the USDM H4 turbo (2.5L vs. 2.0) probably helps with low end grunt, but the peak torque may come later due to the fact that we get one big turbo vs. a dual-stage version. The USDM H6 is probably fairly close to the JDM version.

    Ken
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    Ken

    Also check, assuming the full-size spare fits, if you can still store the cargo blind under the floor. You can't do that with the Forester, as the width of the full-size tire, when laid flat, is too tall. It begins to occupy some of that vertical space needed to store the cargo blind.

    Bob
  • k2rmk2rm Member Posts: 205
    Kens,
    Why do you say that the VTD is better than the continuous in the MT? I thought both systems will transfer power to the tires with the most traction if slippage occurs? This issue could make it easier to be swayed to the 5EAT as I still am going back and forth between it and the MT.
    Thanks
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    VTD can shift power more quickly than the viscous coupling in the manual tranny. It's also potentially proactive, while the VC is reactive.

    Both send power to each axle by default, so in that way they are both proactive.

    -juice
  • buddhabmanbuddhabman Member Posts: 252
  • sdufordsduford Member Posts: 577
    I didn't mean to compare the relative speeds of the Volvo vs the Subaru, I was just comparing the broadness of the torque curves. The on/off nature of the Subaru engine is much more pronounced than it is on the Volvo.

    Yes I think people prefer the Turbos for the sheer thrill of that rush of power that almost pulls your arms off the steering wheel! It is certainly a lot of fun. But since I am primarily concerned with having a practical and comfortable cruising machine, I think that on/off nature would actually get old in everyday driving, especially in city traffic.

    But I am not disputing the merits of the Turbo, I am just saying that the 5MT is a much better match for that engine, and if performance is what you are really after, then the 5MT makes more sense to me. But if you like automatics, by all means...
  • sdufordsduford Member Posts: 577
    Thanks for the graphs Ken, very informative.

    But how do they compare to our versions?

    I notice that the turbo's torque curve peaks at about 2400 RPM, whereas our is adervtised as peeking at 3600 RPM.
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