Subaru Legacy/Outback 2005+

drdave25 · January 2005

Continuing saga of BFGoodrich T/A tires on 2005 Outback 2.5i...Today, we tried my 2005 2.5i with the T/As as well as with the oe Potenzas. What a difference! With the T/As, the car leaps out of bumps (if on a curve, leaps out to one side). In the slush, the T/As really have trouble staying on the pavement. Of course, in dry conditions, the T/As corner much better than the Potenzas. Maybe the Performance Tires are a bit much for the base Outback, at least for winter. One possibility would be to get dedicated winter tires, but we lease the Outbacks and $600 for the Blizzaks (or whatever) is a lot. Any other ideas?

dcm61 · January 2005

One possibility would be to get dedicated winter tires, but we lease the Outbacks and $600 for the Blizzaks (or whatever) is a lot. Any other ideas?

I would recommend that you look at Nokian WR. They are ALL-season tires with a winter snowflake rating.

http://www.etires.com/showSizes.jsp?manufacturer=nokian&categ- - ory=SNOWS&group=WR

There are a couple of dealers in Buffalo.

http://www.nokiantires.com/newsite/dealer_output.cfm?startrow=6&a- mp;a- mp;location=New%20York

DaveM

c_hunter · January 2005

But, I usually fill to brim & dealer may not have when they filled it

Make sure you don't top off the tank after the first click of the pump, otherwise all sorts of problems can result!

CRaig

dcm61 · January 2005

Make sure you don't top off the tank after the first click of the pump, otherwise all sorts of problems can result!

I've been telling my Dad that for probably 30 years and he still doesn't listen. :-( Yeah, it didn't matter back in the old days but their's too much to screw up with today's fuel systems.

DaveM

sduford · January 2005

I've been telling my Dad that for probably 30 years and he still doesn't listen. :-( Yeah, it didn't matter back in the old days but their's too much to screw up with today's fuel systems.

It didn't use to be a problem! My OBXT is my first car for which you absolutely cannot do that!

Sly

drdave25 · January 2005

DaveM-Thanks for the idea. I'm checking into it. Do you have experience with the Nokians on an Outback or other AWD car? How are they compared to oe Potenzas in warm weather? Thanks!

Dave M

63corvette · January 2005

I have posted a tire report on this (Subaru 2005) board, #5988.

dcm61 · January 2005

Do you have experience with the Nokians on an Outback or other AWD car?

I personally do not have any experience with them but I've read quite a bit of positive feedback regarding them.

DaveM

snowbelter · January 2005

I put Nokians on my 02 VDC a year ago after I gave up on the Potenzas that came on my car. Last winter was really snowy and the tires were great. They were fine over the summer. and i've put about 11k on them. I think they are still great this winter, but there's been very little snow. They aren't inexpensive and won't wear as well as some all-season tires. I'm pleased with them.

drdave25 · January 2005

Ongoing saga of the Traction T/As....Our Subaru dealer manager (terrific guy) spent a couple of hours with us yesterday comparing the Traction T/As we've got on our 2005 Outback 2.5i MT with the oe Potenzas. We're all a little perplexed...with the BFGs, the Outback generally corners better. But when we hit a bump in the road, the rear of the wagon gets quite jittery. Today, we were driving at about 50 mph, ran over a slightly depressed manhole cover and the car fishtailed so much it was hard to control it. Yesterday, over the same spot with Potenzas on the car, it stayed well under control. What could there be about the 2.5i and the BFGs that makes such a bad match???

saedave · January 2005

Are the BFGs heavier than the Potenzas? Additional tire weight requires more damping from the shocks. Another difference could be more sidewall stiffness in the BFGs which would act similarly.

c_hunter · January 2005

Interesting. What is the speed rating of the T/As ? How do the other specs compare to the RE-92.

Generally, when backing off in speed rating, you will notice squishier sidewalls, more tire flex, and possible instabilities according to a tire guy I know. In fact, he won't allow people to downgrade the speed rating more than one category because he has seen too many problems. SO I wonder if that's the case here and you found out the hard way?

Craig

chassol · January 2005

JUST got this looky looky - http://www.b9tribeca.com/sub/b9/home_flash.html.

250 HP

Curb Weight 4245 Lbs

7.6 qt oil capacity

18X8" Wheels

dcab · January 2005

I have the BFG Traction T/As on my 97 Outback. Over 30,000 miles and no problems. I put BFG Winter Slaloms on in the winter and they're great too.

Is there a difference between the 97 and 05 Outbacks that would cause the tires to perform so differently? I've got 205/70/15s on my car.

drdave25 · January 2005

Thanks for the idea. What is perplexing is that both tires are the same size, same speed rating, but the BFGs outperform the Potenza RE92 tires in every Tirerack dimension, wet, dry, you name it. That's why we ordered them! So, we did not back off the speed rating. In actual driving, what it feels like is that the BFG Traction T/As are harder, less grippy, and get more so the colder and wetter it gets. This also runs contrary to the PR on the tire, which is that its compound is traction-oriented.

The temptation is to scrap the T/As for Nokians, or maybe go for the Blizzaks for winter...either way, laying out +/-$600. Ouch!

drdave25 · January 2005

Thanks for the idea. FYI, all of the Buffalo dealers are really the same company, Broad Elm Tire!

xwesx · January 2005

Was there a customer satisfaction clause on your purchase? Perhaps you could take them back to where ever you purchased and have them replace the tires with something different?

c_hunter · January 2005

Call up the TireRack and talk to the associate who you ordered the tires from. They are usually very interested in customer satisfaction in my experience. At the very least, they need to know about the situation with these tires on this particular car, and they may have some advice. Those guys are real tire experts, so definitely tap into their knowledge.

Craig

ateixeira · January 2005

Tribeca gets MP3 and aux input. Looks like they took the feedback from the Legacy.

-juice

drdave25 · January 2005

Supposedly the rear suspension has been reworked. Also, the rear of the car is lighter, with an aluminum liftgate. I'm wondering if these are factors.

How long have you had the Traction T/As? I thought they just came out in '04?! May I assume the Traction T/As are not so hot in winter driving, hence the snow tires?

drdave25 · January 2005

Thanks for the thought. The first response was that the tire was great, but they have offered to explore the problem a little more, with an eye to the 2005 Outback.

dcab · January 2005

My mistake-my tires are Touring T/A, not Traction T/A. Sorry about that.

I got the snowtires because the rear of my car was fishtailing on turns on snow and ice and to improve stopping ability on snow and ice. The Winter Slalom's are great on the Outback. The car doesn't fishtail and the ABS rarely if ever engages when stopping. I got them after two winters with the Touring T/As, which are still fine for the rest of the year. So I can't comment specifically on Traction T/As, but I've been pleased with BFG tires generally.

cptplt · January 2005

I have NRWs on a 98 Legacy, WRs on a 00 Windstar.

They are better than the stock RE92s in the dry, maybe not quite as good in the wet. They are not as good as something like a Blizzak WS on ice but are probably as good as Blizzak LMs/Arctic Alpins etc.

The best thing about them is you can run them in the summer and not lose all your tread unlike most winter tires. They do not do well on heavy vehicles though (the Windstar has had them for over a year and 15K and half the tread is gone).I also have Nokian CSs on a small Winnebago and they lost half the tread on the drive wheels in 6K! The NRWS on the Legacy are used in winter only and on their 3rd season and still maybe a 1/3 worn only.

Overall, they are a good compromise if you want some decent winter tire traction without needing a dedicated winter tire or you want a winter tire with decent snow traction without needing excellent ice traction like a hard core Blizzak WS.

Incidentally I just got some Michelin X Ices (the replacement for the Arctic Alpin) for a Venture and they seem like they are almost as good on ice as the previous Blizzaks and hopefully will have much better treadwear.

tulane · January 2005

I posted here a few weeks ago concerning the "fluttering" noise I hear while driving my 05OB2.5i. I thought it was the engine, but it's the transmission that makes the noise. It's noticeable when I'm over 3000 RPM's. When I'm driving over 75mph there is a low rumble noise and it feels like it needs to be shifted even though I'm already in 5th gear. I thought it was just a characteristic of the car and that I would get used to it, however, after 7,500 miles it still feels odd. My 2001 Forester never sounded this way so I'm just curious if anyone else has noticed this.

crashton6 · January 2005

I think you should check the oil in there. Sounds to me like it could be low. If it is low top it off & get to the dealer asap.

Chuck

tulane · January 2005

Thanks for the reply. I,ve been tempted to bring it in, but I wanted to make sure I wasn't over reacting.

samiam_68 · January 2005

This place offers a NAV system for the 05 Legacy/Outback:

http://www.subarugtx.com

njswamplands · January 2005

drdave25 · January 2005

Thanks for the feedback. How stiff are the sidewalls? Do the Nokians corner better than the oe Potenzas? The (impossible?) goal is for tires that handle better than the Potenzas but also have better traction - tires that aren't so frisky that the car gets out of control in crosswinds, on bumps or wet pavement, like the T/As! If we're going to ditch the Traction T/As and spring for the Nokians, I don't want to suffer the same mistake!

Dave

sduford · January 2005

That almost looks like a Photoshop picture.

I've also heard some bad feedback about that dealer on another forum.

Sly

tsy · January 2005

There are definitely much better solutions than that nav. It definitely looks tacked on.

There are plenty of portable GPS navs that are quite good, and if you want something better you can buy some systems that are built in for about the same price as a stock nav unit.

Or just wait and hope for changes in '06. ;-)

tom

ateixeira · January 2005

Get a Garmin 2610, those looks pretty cool.

The one in the Tribeca was very impressive, took me all of 15 seconds to put my house on the map.

-juice

snowbelter · January 2005

Nokians seem to corner much better, wet or dry, than the Potenzas, and do fine on the NY Thruway doing 75. They do better at stopping as the ABS rarely activates.

bat1161 · January 2005

I'll vouch for the 2610. Works great, is portable so you can take it on vacation, and has maps of US & Canada. Also about $1500 less than a built in system.

Mark

tsy · January 2005

Yup, that's the one I have. Works great, good maps. Only problem is sometimes it loses the signal around a lot of high rises, but actually still does quite well.

tom

sduford · January 2005

All GPS systems have issues around high-rise buildings, they need to see the satellites.

I agree with the portable route. Much cheaper, and you can take it with you. I personally rarely need nav in my own car. When I need nav, I am usually in a rental car in a city I don't know.

Unless you're a travelling salesman or something along those lines, I personally don't see the usefulness of a built-in system.

ateixeira · January 2005

My wife sees clients, often at an unknown addy. She's the one that wants it.

I'm to cheap to even pay for a map. I still use the free ones I got when I was a AAA member!

-juice

tsy · January 2005

Actually Sly, built in systems offer dead reckoning. So when they lose the satellite, they are hooked into the cars odometer and have a compass, so can make a reasonable estimate of where you are. Hence the advantage if you drive downtown Manhatten or the like.

Garmin makes a unit, the 2650, IIRC, which is installed and has dead reckoning if you really need it.

It's a 'nice to have' feature. If anything, it allows me to give my kids an answer to "how much longer" ;-)

tom

rwoods · January 2005

I just read a Car & Driver article saying that research is showing that electronic stability control systems are the best safety advance since seatbelts even surpassing ABS. Since this technology is passive it works far better than ABS in correcting skidding as ABS users tend to misuse the system when they pump their brakes.

I'm disappointed in Subaru since ESP seems to be offered only in the top end VDC model. Here I'm assuming that VDC equates to ESP. I may be wrong. My OBXT, Limited put me back $31,000 and ESP or VDC were not available. I liked the feel of the turbo engine so I missed out. I would have opted for stability control as an option even at another $500-800 but it wasn't available.

Anyone else feel that Subaru should be putting this technology in all its vehicles at least as an option? Would that be so hard to do?

Bob

sduford · January 2005

DR only works for a minute or two with little or no turns.

Last time I was in downtown Boston with a Hertz NeverLost system, which has DR, it was showing me out in the middle of the bay!

sduford · January 2005

Yes Bob, I agree wholeheartedly. It should be an option, at least on all performance and premium models (WRX, FXT, Legacy, Outback).

robr2 · January 2005

Last time I was in downtown Boston with a Hertz NeverLost system, which has DR, it was showing me out in the middle of the bay!

Well we Bostonians are considered clever drivers!! Even if it's not paved, it's considered fair game for driving on.

BTW - it's a harbor.

locke2c · January 2005

quote:Anyone else feel that Subaru should be putting this technology in all its vehicles at least as an option? Would that be so hard to do?

VDC is extremely sophisticated and it would cost much more than $500-800 as an option. the question is, would people

A) pay whatever its cost is, say $1,500 for argument's sake

pay $500-800 for some lesser system-- which subaru currently does not offer on any model.

~Colin

occking · January 2005

Just got a Garmin 2620 in late December. $1099 was the best price I could get (Best Buy) with a $100 rebate that I should be getting soon. Have use it extensively on trips up around the Lake (Ontario) through NY State as well as on another trip this week up to New Brunswick. Works well in Canada also although at times it forces (well, not "forces" but wants you to go to your destination in ways that sometimes don't make any sense. Also at times it will show you on a different road that you are actually on (like Trans Canada 2 near Ednumston, NB) when you are on that highway yet the little arrow dingy says you are somewhere else.

I opted for that unit over the one from Magellan that sells for around the same price as there is much more flexibility on installing on dash or using temporary "bean baggy" think that works ok. Magellan you are supposed to stick to front windshield with suction cups which seems like that would be kind of a pain.

Otherwise, I think the two are probably very similar. Takes a while to get used to.

Had my OB 2.5 ltd for two weeks now. Put on this week 1100 miles in less than two days from Prov RI up to New Brunswick & return. Having a hard time getting comfortable in the front seats, although 20 hours in the car out of 42 is a lot of time to spend. So far, averaging 25 mpg on highway driving & hope that once it breaks in will get better.

tsy · January 2005

Maybe you were in the tunnel? ;-)

I don't think anything works well in Boston! But there aren't enough high buildings to lose your sat signal there (at least I didn't seem to- other than the tunnels of course) BTW, have they finished that tunnel yet?

I think the neverlost is based on the magellan gps. I've never used it. But I had no troubles through downtown LA driving an LX470 or LS430 with gps. The dead reckoning did fine. Even my Garmin GPS will actually keep track for 30sec after losing the satellite- provided you don't turn. ;-)

tom

c_hunter · January 2005

I agree, it should be in more of Subaru's models, and was pleased to see it as std equipment on all levels of the Tribeca.

Craig

cptplt · January 2005

Subaru needs to offer VDC on all AT cars and an ESC on all MTs

sduford · January 2005

Yes The NeverLost is based on a Magellan unit.

Actually I think downtown Boston is worst then downtown LA where the buildings are spaced out a lot more.

You don't need very tall buildings, as long as a majority of the sky is blocked, and depending on how many satellites are currently in view and where they are located, the GPS will easily get lost.

I was actually lost downtown Boston going around trying to find my way and the NeverLost was no use as after a while it was more lost then me. We affectionately called it AlwaysLost after that.

BTW: A harbour is just a built-up bay.

tsy · January 2005

Yeah, Boston is the second worst city i've ever driven in. Worst in this country, anyway! But actually, I had no problems with my Garmin unit there. Maybe I was just in the right places at the right times. ;-)

Sly, they call it Boston Harbor, not Boston Bay. ;-) I think that's why rob's being picky. ;-)

tom

kens · January 2005

It's been my opinion all along that Subaru should offer some lesser ESP system as an option for non VDC vehicles.

I think what would happen is no one would buy VDC if it were priced higher since the general public wouldn't really understand the benefits.

Ken

Subaru Legacy/Outback 2005+

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