Subaru Legacy/Outback 2005+

occking · February 2005

Approaching 3000 miles--one month. Twice averaged (actual 25 mpg on extended trip highway miles) A few times in the low twenties. Yesterday on first leg of trip in cold weather (0 to 5 above all highway, averaged around 23. On return trip, in warmer weather trip computer said I was getting 29, so I may have been getting around 27. Haven't filled up yet & computer now down to 25 mpg because of 25 or so miles put on for short distance driving. I would hope when weather improves to average at least 26 or 27 or so straight highway & maybe more when fuel changes. Car seems to be running quieter now that it has a few miles on it. But boy, when you hit a little bump in the road the back wheels come right off the ground. I would hate to going around a corner quickly & hit a bump like that I can't imagine what would happen.

moutback · February 2005

<<And to the response about none of the cars listed be available in the mid-20's: yes they are, or will be by the end of the model year. . . . I fully expect the AWD Ford/Mercury to be on fire sale by the end of the year. The Magnum, maybe. The Mazda, probably. BTW, I had a 1988 Mazda 323GTX, and it handled the road nicely.>>

Umm, good luck trying to find a new A4 Quattro, Passat 4Motion, or V50 AWD for "mid-20s." Don't hold your breath.

And MAZDASPEED6? It won't even be for sale until next spring and the base MSRP starts at $28 without options--i.e., compares with the Legacy GT, which is subject to more discounts than the newer Mazda. I doubt Mazda will have a "fire sale" for the MAZDASPEED6.

ateixeira · February 2005

Krisshna: I thought you'd wait to see a Tribeca?

MZ6 will hit about $32k when equipped like a Legacy GT Limited.

You can get a base Leg GT sedan for under $25k nowadays.

The Mazda does have HIDs, bigger rims, and a 6 speed manual, though.

-juice

bigrobnh · February 2005

99.99% of fogging issues during the winter are due to people using the "recirculate" function on their climate control systems. Even with AC on, if you have recirculate on, you will get fogging.

The best way to drive is w/recirculate off and AC on during the winter months.

This past weekend the wife just upgraded her 2003 Legacy GT wagon to the 2005 version (limited). Switched from manual to auto trans. This car is like night and day when compared to the 2003 model. This is a very very nice vehicle.

I have to admit that I, too, think the climate control system has a mind of its own. However, it is just the temperature, the overall airflow seems fine. The 2003 was always stuffy inside and I was always having to mess with the climate controls.

Every other facet of the car is a major improvement over the 2003.

Regards,

BigRob.

occking · February 2005

Just turned 3000 miles today in 2.5 LT. I am aware that snow can clog up the wheel wells & cause a lot of vibration in the vehicle. This happened to me a few weeks ago but when the buildup melted, the problem went away. However today on a 200+ trip on dry roads with absolutely no build up on wheel wells got extreme vibration for almost entire trip, particularly noticeable at speeds from 55 to 70 (more pronounced the faster I went) The vibration was so great you could see the passenger sheet shaking & I would not have even attempted to hold a relatively full cup of coffee. I pulled over a few times & could see nothing in the wheel well or anything obvious on the tires (like a huge wad or gum, or asphalt or something like that) Then, as quickly as it started it was gone. Up to 75 with no vibration at all. I stopped by the dealer & his first reaction was snow or something in the wheel well but I told him that was not the case. He did mention that the wheels on these vehicles, or the way they are sitting on the vehicle are very subject to this kind of problem. Anyone out there had this experience.

That was not fun driving 200 miles plus today all highway & having that constant vibration.

sduford · February 2005

I agree! As much as I dislike the ACC system on my OBXT, I have NEVER had any problems with foggy windows and I live where the climate is very humid and cold through fall and winter. The windoes are always clear and the system does an amazing job of warming the cabin fast.

But if I switch to recirc, then the windows will fog up within a couple of minutes, faster if there are more people in hte car.

So I agree w. BigRob, there are no such issues with this car.

Sly

kyfdx · February 2005

Sounds more like an intermittent problem with the lock-up torque converter in the automatic transmission.... Just my WAG..

checkitout · February 2005

Tsy,

Thanks for your response. Like I stated earlier, when I retested the GT in the streets, it felt better than on the C&D course. I am also thinking of slightly modifying some of the suspension and or tires when I buy the car, but I am "mechanically disabled" and I would need to have someone do it for me. Subaru should really have a GT STI or at least a GT sport. There is so much potential for that car.

checkitout · February 2005

Kens

I agree with your post. The base GT (esp the hp) is more sport than I need for 98% of street driving, but it feels good knowing you have a little extra there if needed or if one likes legal competition.

Yeah, I like legacygt.com. There is so much to learn and because the car is still new, so much to be developed.

My current car is still running well, so I will prolly buy in the fall. I am thinking of buying the base GT because it has more headroom than the Limited. I am 6'4" and in the Limited my hair tends to rub on the ceiling. Do you know if it is possible to get a GT non-limited with leather seats?

Thanks, Nelson

dudleyr · February 2005

I don't really see a reason to ever use recirc in most of the country. Where I live we go from over 110 in the shade in the summer to 30 below zero in the winter, and only on the coldest days (highs below zero) do we need to use recirc to keep the car warm.

sduford · February 2005

Need to uses recirc to keep the car warm? I've seen -30C several times here this winter and I have never felt the need to use recirc...

Sly

samiam_68 · February 2005

Your tires could be flat-spotting. Did the car sit for a couple of days without being driven before your trip? Flat-spotting is most pronounced in cold weather and with under-inflated tires. If the tires are already inflated properly, it could be remedied by increasing tire pressure by about 3-6 PSI over the spec.

Hope this helps.

snowbird · February 2005

Jim: I have now replaced my Bridgestones with Falkens on my 05 Outback VDC. The new tires seem to have much better grip, on wet or dry roads. Noise and ride very good. Will happily provide more info if needed. Snowbird.

bigrobnh · February 2005

This recirculate thing is one of my pet peeves. You see people driving around here all the time (NH, MA) with ALL their windows fogged up and little holes rubbed clear on the windshield and side window. It is downright dangerous and, frankly, pisses me off.

Where I work I've followed 4 different people into the parking lot like this and told them as they got out of the car that recirculate is causing their problems. All 4 cases, that was the problem.

Regards,

BigRob.

c_hunter · February 2005

Agreed, it is a common mistake / problem.

Craig

occking · February 2005

I appreciate all of the responses on "foggy windows". The problem is not "recirculate" I am not using that function at all. If it is 0 out, in all other cars I have had I just need a setting of maybe 5 degrees more than the low (70 in the OB & would normally get enough heat without having the fan on at all) With this car, to get the floor area to warm up seems like you have to put the fan on at least the third setting & have the temperature setting higher. I had someone else in the car with me today & there is definitely something weird about being able to heat the floor area. At times you are comfortable than other times like there is no heat on at all.

I am also the one that posted about the extreme vibration I had today for around 200 miles. It is not "flat spotting" (I don't think--the car is used every day & would that last several hours. Wasn't that cold this morning, maybe 20 or so)

checkitout · February 2005

Juice,

Sorry, the link I posted had your name, but at the bottom it also had kens post.

Oh, one more question/concern for all of ya. Tsy mentioned that the GT is not a bimmer with regards to handling. My question, why not try? BMW has proven that well handling sedans sell. I know I am nit-picking, but the Legacy can improve its handling and steering without being bone-jarring.

Thanks.

rwoods · February 2005

I paid $1,500 below sticker for my 05 OBXT Ltd. in August, 2004 so your price sounds great to me.

ateixeira · February 2005

I'd inspect the wheel bearings.

BMWs with the Sport Package have gotten quite stiff, too stiff me thinks for most folks. I have two friends that have bent rims on theirs.

I do think there is room for an STi or at least a Sport Pack on the Legacy GT, though. I think it could get just a little more starch but remain tolerable, maybe like the non-Sport BMWs.

-juice

gearhead4 · February 2005

occking,

I think you and I are driving twins separated at birth (manufacture).

Fogging: I NEVER turn on the recirculate setting and have had my windows fog up on three occasions.

Each time, the outside temperature was around 30 F and the roads were wet with snow. The full defog setting ultimately clears the inside of the windshield, but it takes a while and the engine must be at full operating temperature. I think I discovered the problem. The air intake for the heater is under the hood where moisture gets trapped and sucked into the heater. I plan to drill holes in the plastic cowl cover forward and above the wipers. This way, cooler, drier air can enter the heater from the base of the windshield (like most vehicles). There should be cowl drains to allow any accumulated water to drain.

Vibrations: This problem is very intermittent for me. I had my Subaru dealer balance the tires. That helped some, but occasionally the vibration comes back. The vibration occurs just as often in clear weather with no snow or rain on the car or the pavement. I think it is a drive train problem rather than wheels. It's as if the U-joints or CV joints occasionally become bound at an odd angles where the driveshaft or axles become temporarily unbalanced. I have only 3000 miles on my Legacy 2.5i sedan and hope the problem clears up as the joints wear in. Next time this happens, try stopping the car, backup a bit under power, and resume forward movement. If the vibration clears than it's a drivetrain rather than a wheel issue.

Jim

xwesx · February 2005

I have to agree with dudleyr here. On very cold days (like today at -48F), non-recirc settings tend to allow the cab to reach, oh, maybe 40+F, which is great compared to the 90+ degree differential with ambient, but still is not excessively comfortable on the fingers and toes. The only way to incrase the temp in the cab is to choose recirc. However, I cannot drive with recirc because the windows almost instantly fog up once the defroster is turned off (my car cannot recirc WITH the defroster on). So, the compromise is to recirc while the car is at rest and to defog while it is in motion. Once the seats, dash, steering wheel, etc. start to warm up, the cab temp will slowly rise even without recirc. Even with running the defroster all the time, the rear windows and cargo windows are always fogged. Not too big of a deal for me because I learned to drive with a cargo van that didn't even have rear windows, but it still substantially increases the blind spots.

I do not think it is a problem with the make of the car, but more due to the extreme environment. I am just glad that we have 0 humidity this time of year because humidity and cold weather together are not fun.

Oh, and I might be dreaming because I don't use it very often, but recirc with A/C in the summer seems to allow the cab to get much colder than drawing hot outside air.

Enjoy the drive,

-Wes-

occking · February 2005

Let me know if your suggested solution for eliminating the "fogging" problem works for you. I am bringing my car into dealer tomorrow for it's first oil change & see what they want to do. Here is what may have happened... Car had been fine for a few weeks. Was "fooling around" in my front yard last night with a few feet of snow in the center of my circular driveway. When I plow through it a few times it brings the piles way down. Not hard packed snow, just heavy from pushing it off the driveway area into the center. I almost got stuck & had to rock the car back & forth three or four times before I got out. So, some "wheel spin" in both directions. Thought nothing of it until I hopped in the car this morning to take a quick trip up to Cocord, NH. and had that awful vibration all the way up and almost all the way back & it disappeared right before I got home. But, I had made several stops during the morning & used reverse several times so I don't know if that had anything to do with correcting the problem. Sure hope if is not a very common occurence. I do a lot of highway driving as you can see 3200 miles already in less than 5 weeks and another long trip this Sunday up to Quebec. Hope the dealer can help out on this tomorrow.

subearu · February 2005

If you have a moonroof, you can open that bit to help ventilate the cabin and reduce/remove the fogging. Of course, make sure your rooftop is cleared of snow! ;-)

If you don't want to open the moonroof, having a window open a small bit does help as well, I think I've read others having one window up front open, and the opposite side open in the rear.

-Brian

tsy · February 2005

Hey snowbird

Which Falkens did you get? I'm always curious about peoples impressions about tires. I keep experimenting and have heard some good things about Falkens, but they tend to be noisy (at least the high performance ones)

tom

tsy · February 2005

I'm "time disabled" so I would have someone do it for me too! ;-) But there are plenty of people that will do this stuff (and take your money!)

I think there's room for an STi version of the legacy, but I think it would be a much lower volume car than the GT. In this country, people want to be comfortable, so they settle for the softer ride. Most bimmers ride pretty well, but as Juice said, you need to get the sport suspension packages to get something better handling. Most people will actually pass on this.

Even the new Mazdaspeed 6 wil be a very limited production model. (I spoke with the dealer today) So it seems while there are some people like us who want it all, there certainly aren't a lot! ;-)

I bought this car because I always said when Subaru turbocharges the GT I'll buy one. So when they did, I literally put my money where my mouth was, and bought one of the first ones. I have never regretted it (and I go through a lot of cars!). Thought about a 5 series, but no AWD and definitely don't like the new look. Audis are nice but I need a reliable car. Volvos are nice, but their AWD system isn't what I wanted. The new Acura is nice, but kinda slow.

No, there actually isn't anything remotely in this price range that does what this car does. And with the infusion of a few $K more, there's not much that will keep up with it either!

tom

mayberryguy · February 2005

Sorry, you can't get Leather on the GT or the Outback for that matter, unless it is a LTD. There is another option if you really want Leather without the moonroof, you could buy just the standard GT with the Cloth and have your dealer order factory Leather seat covers and have them installed. This isn't exactly cheap but it is able to be done because the Leather seat covers are an exact fit with the cloth seats.

tsy · February 2005

You can have leather put on aftermarket for about $1000. The aftermarket leather is probably a little nicer too.

I actually wanted a non-Ltd GT because it's lighter (about 200lbs) than the Ltd, but they didn't have any at the time. Oh well. ;-)

tom

mesh · February 2005

Lets not forget to kick the snow off our boots before getting in the car. When I was living in Wyoming, I was always surprised to see the windows fogged up on the inside of the car whenever the sun came out and the air outside was cold. I figured out that it was all the snow that I was tracking into the car everytime I got in. If this moisture is not physically removed by shaking out the mats every now and then, then the only thing that will get rid off it will be a few warm sunny days with the vents open. Obviously, frequent, short trips will exascerbate this problem.

snowbird · February 2005

Hi, Tom:

I got Falken ZE-512 B. Size 225/55ZR-17. So far, they are much quieter than the OE tires and are almost at par with the more expensive Michelin MXV4 Plus that I have on my other car. In a way, the Falkens and the Subarus are alike. They are both very good, but underrated. Jason (aka. Snowbird)

xwesx · February 2005

Ugh. Tell me about it. I finally put rubber mats in my Subie this fall because the ice builds up so much over the course of the winter that it becomes difficult to hold a steady foot on the pedals due to the slick surface. They work okay, but are a horrible fit for the car. I certainly wasted a few dollars getting the "Subaru" mats.

Last weekend when I had the car in a friend's shop to replace the water pump and timing belt, I must have had hundreds of pounds of ice melt off the car. There was at least 30 gallons of water on the floor. I felt bad about creating the mess, but the car rides a few inches higher now and no more ice rubbing against the rear tires!

ssminton · February 2005

I have found my Outback wiper fluid reservoir to be much larger than other cars I have owned. The fluid dispersion systems also appear to disperse less fluid than others. When my system froze up hard in November, I attempted to clear the system myself once it thawed on my own so that I could add non-freezing fluid. It seemed to take a really long time so I ended up adding an additive concentrate to mix with the existing fluid. This worked great for a couple of months, and then eventually it started to freeze again. I have continued to add my own solution with -20F ratings. Although I do not get complete freeze ups. I still get occasional spot freezing when temps are near zero.

In summary... the tanks are huge and for whatever reason, it is difficult to get the original 32F factory stuff out of the system. I highly recommend getting the additive (the dealer will add it for free). Keep in mind that you may need to do this a couple of times. I live in a cold climate and have been at this since early November.

ateixeira · February 2005

Clear your roof of snow regardless. The stuff can blind cars behind you, or hit motorcyclists!

-juice

gearhead4 · February 2005

Good point... but don't kick the rocker panels too hard, the 05 Legacys have plastic rocker panels that could fracture on impact in cold weather.

I have the Subaru "all weather" mats that allow puddles to collect in the channels of the rubber. Then the water runs to the edge of the mat, or the hole for the mat retainer hook, and then soaks the carpeting under the mat, where it can't easily evaporate.

Last weekend I had dry rubber mats with soaked carpeting underneath. The "all weather" mats work better in dry weather.

-Jim

tsy · February 2005

Thanks Jason. Those Falkens are pretty well rated. I would guess they handle better than your Michelin MXV4s (comfy tires, and quiet, but not performers). You'll have to keep us updated.

Here in the NW, Subies are very well accepted. Very popular, people swear by them. But I agree with you, in the rest of the country (other than the NE) they are underrated cars.

tom

manamal · February 2005

I am debating between the Legacy GT LTD and the Outback XT LTD or LLBEAN. The only reason why I am even thinking of the OB is for dirving in snow. Anyone have any experience with the '05 GT in the snow?

kens · February 2005

The main advantage of an OB in snow will be ground clearance. The OB gets about 2-3" more clearance than the GT so in deep snow, it might make a difference if you drive through unplowed roads.

The other difference is in the tires. Although all three wear all-seasons (M+S rated), the GT gets slightly more "sporty" tires that may not work as well in snow. But at the same the the GT tires are a tad narrower (but lower profile) so that may negate any tread difference. In any case, stock tires are typically mediocre (for either the GT or OB) and a simple upgrade will improve snow performance significantly.

All three should fare quite well in snow compared to any 2WD vehicle. They all use the same AWD system (if equipped with 5EAT).

I can't post a link, but there are many owner snow driving reports available at Legacygt.com. The overwhelming response seems to be positive.

Ken

liv4today · February 2005

Hey all,

A few weeks ago my brand spanking new 05 Legacy 2.5i Ltd had the CEL come on with the cruise control light blinking. I have only had the car for 2 months. The car ran fine but the cruise control did not work. I brought it in to the dealer who connected it up to the computer to read the codes. The computer revealed that the two O2 Sensors needed to be replaced. I am assuming that the cruise control would be fixed as well. The dealer ordered the sensors of which only one showed up on Thursday of last week. He put another request in for another sensor on Friday of last week and well today is Thursday and nada! Car is still in the shop and all I get is excuses...Needless to say I am extremely frustrated and aggravated that such a new car has run into such problem so early in the game.

I contacted Subaru of America with my dilemma. They responded by saying that the part has been ordered is presently in my state. Additionally, it would be delivered by Friday at the latest.

Why does it take 3 days to move a part from the warehouse to the dealership which I may add is only 2 hours away from each other?? Since the 2.5i has the same H4 engine as the previous year why arent there plenty of sensors readily available??

To address my frustration Subaru of America has agreed to take care of my rental and would give me "good will". Has anyone encountered this so called "good will"? I would really love to know what I should be expecting from Subaru. Has anyone else had problems receiving parts while the car was in the dealership??

The rotors were warped too on a car with only 2000 miles on it??!? Subaru is definetly not impressing me. This is going to have to be some top notch"good will" by SOA.

crashton6 · February 2005

A coworker of mine has a new 3.0R Outback. Today I noticed that she has the spare tire on the rear. It appears to be the same circumference as the other tires. I was going to read her manual & figure it out, but she left work before me & I missed her. Does she need to put a fuse in like some other Subaru's do? I hate to think she's damaging her tranny.

Thanks.

Chuck

dcm61 · February 2005

There's no fuse w/ the VTD AWD.

Some people say to put the spare on the front since it's an open diff.; the rear has LSD.

DaveM

crashton6 · February 2005

Thanks for the fast response. I'm sure she'll be glad to know she didn't hurt her car.

Chuck

sduford · February 2005

Thanks to Craig's knowledgeable posts, we all know that the ACC has both a Fully Automatic mode (where HAL does as he sees fit) and a Semi-Automatic mode (where HAL still controls the temp but you control most other functions).

But did you know there is a "Full Auto w. no A/C" mode? I discovered that this week. If you start in Auto, and wait until HAL has gone through his morning routine and switches the A/C on, and then you press A/C OFF, then you are still in FULL Auto mode despite the AUTO light turning off.

This means that the next morning when you start your car, it will start with low-fan speed and upper vents until the engine starts warming up, then go to high-fan end foot vents until the car warms up (or you are well-done, whichever comes first) and then switch to both foot-vents and face-vents, but without turning on the A/C!

On the other hand, when you are in semi-auto, it would actually go to full blast as soon as you start the car, and would not change which vents are used.

BTW, through the very cold weather we've had over the last few weeks I thought HAL was working quite well. I thought maybe it was me or the system was learning how to deal with our climate. But now that temperatures are back up around the freezing mark, it has started to overshoot it's temp again and overheat the cabin. The critical range seems to be -10C to +5C or so. Outside of that range, it works much better.

Sly

ateixeira · February 2005

Profile says you're in VA, so probably not that much snow. Unless you're in a rural area, I'd go for the GT, it's cheaper and more fun.

If you see a lot of gravel/dirt roads, and clearance is important, opt for the OB.

-juice

xwesx · February 2005

The '96 OB has quite a bit less ground clearance than modern Outbacks (not sure exactly how much, probably somewhere around 6.5-7"?, so more comparable to new GT). It works well in snow (with all-seasons) up to about 12". It will propel me through sustained depths of up to, perhaps, 18", but if I stop in anything deeper than 10 or maybe 12", I'll be digging. Again, winter tires and/or tire chains will probably help with this, but in any case, FYI. Our snow is often quite dry here as well...

ateixeira · February 2005

I think the '95 had just 5.8", then '96 went to 6.8".

But nowadays they're much higher up.

-juice

dcm61 · February 2005

Outback Wagon Ground Clearance:

'96 to '04 H4 = 7.3" GC

'01 to '04 H6 = 7.9" GC

'05 2.5i / 3.0R = 8.4" GC

'05 XT = 8.7" GC

DaveM

ateixeira · February 2005

DaveM is our encyclopedia, so believe his numbers, not mine! :-)

-juice

beanboy · February 2005

Has anybody dug a little deeper now that the Legacy has been out for a while? Suspension specs seem to be the same for the GT and 2.5i models...

-B

krzyss · February 2005

of the suspension but my guess is that GT rotors, calipers and wheels are heavier than standard and I would expect suspension settings to reflect this.

Just my thoughts not knowledge.

Krzys

ateixeira · February 2005

Well, I took the wife to see the Tribeca, and she fell in love...

...with a Regal Blue Pearl Legacy GT Limited Sedan with Sportshift.

Boy, it was hilarious. I kept showing her the new Tribeca and Outbacks, she kept going back to the GT, didn't want to hear about anything else. She's even picked her color out.

Her 2002 Legacy wagon is fine, but if I can get a clean used sample or something we may trade up. You should have seen her expression when she said "this is my next car".

The damage is done, I can't change her mind now.

-juice

sduford · February 2005

Thank your lucky stars she didn't fall in love with the Pontiac G6!

Subaru Legacy/Outback 2005+

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