Subaru Legacy/Outback 2005+

kevin111 · February 2004

Assuming the Legacy GT Limited comes under $30K (or around this), would this basically make the Saab 9-3 a non factor (barely makes a blip on the market now)?

Also, are we looking at a derivative of the next generation Saab 9-3? Considering the Saab 9-2 is basically a WRX wagon dressed up.

ateixeira · February 2004

Not really - surprise, surprise, but Saab just had a record sales year.

Since they changed from quirky hatchbacks to more mainstream sedan designs, they've done pretty well, actually.

They're still a pretty small niche player, though.

-juice

buddhabman · February 2004

Outside of the Saaburu 9-2X, I don't think there have been any other announced product colabarations between Saab and Subaru. The next gen Saab 9-3 is supposed to have 250HP and AWD, but the sytling is very different. I wonder if they will use Subarus AWD system or a Saab/GM (Saab has AWD in it's Pikes Peak race car) developed one?. I do think they use a similar source for turbos - Mitsubihi. The Legacy GT should be good competition for the 9-3, 3 Series, G35, S60, C-Class, IS300, TL, and X-Type.

Subie now needs a vehicle for the next level of premium sedans and wagons, 9-5, 5 Series, S80, E- Class, GS, Rl ?, S-Type. I wonder if the B11S concept will be the styling que for a larger model?

ateixeira · February 2004

The B11S was a wide body and we will see a large sedan flagship model based on that platform. That's 2-3 years away, is my guess.

-juice

kevin111 · February 2004

"The next gen Saab 9-3 is supposed to have 250HP and AWD, but the sytling is very different. "

- Considering that the GT is also 250HP and AWD, this makes me wonder a little more so. Thanks for the info.

jalegranti · February 2004

Does anyone know if Subaru has any plans to produce a turbocharged Outback wagon? In 4-cyl or 6-cyl? I'm looking at Outbacks and Touaregs, but unfortunately none of them seem to have a turbo option - which is a bummer if you live at 6,000 feet above sea level (and regularly drive at up to 10,500 feet) and don't want to lose a substantial percentage of your horesepower.
Any knowledge about turbo Outbacks would be much appreciated.

Thanks,

Jon

dcm61 · February 2004

The '05 Outback 2.5XT (Turbo) should be in showrooms in June.

See http://www.need-desire.com for details.

Also, see http://media.subaru.com and click on the Outback link on the left.

DaveM

rsholland · February 2004

'05 Outback XT is a turbo, with 250 hp and 250 torque. It will arrive in early June.

Bob

jalegranti · February 2004

Does anyone know if Subaru has any plans to produce a turbocharged Outback wagon? In 4-cyl or 6-cyl? I'm looking at Outbacks and Touaregs, but unfortunately none of them seem to have a turbo option - which is a bummer if you live at 6,000 feet above sea level (and regularly drive at up to 10,500 feet) and don't want to lose a substantial percentage of your horesepower.
Any knowledge about turbo Outbacks would be much appreciated.

Thanks,

Jon

goneskiian · February 2004

Jon,
Try using the "recent messages" link rather than using the refresh button in your browser to see if anyone's answered your question. That way you'll avoid the dreaded double post.

About a turbo Outback... what they said. ;-)

-Ian

rob999 · February 2004

FWIW - Just saw the new 2005 model Outbacks and Legacy's at the Chicago Auto Show and was very impressed.

Very nice interior materials and layout, plus the addition of a 6-way seat for the front passenger.

I really like the styling changes that include less cladding and a monochrome look - also liked the more traditional one-hole sunroof.

I'm looking forward to test driving one of these 250hp cars in June. I was originally planning on keeping my '01 for a while, but the 2005's have me thinking.....

ateixeira · February 2004

I know, my '98 Forester is still perfectly fine, but I'm shopping too!

-juice

pathtomax · February 2004

It is going to be hard to choose between the Outback XT Turbo or just the straight V6. I really would love to have a manual transmission again though!

ateixeira · February 2004

I guess you could consider it a 180 degree V...

-juice

njswamplands · February 2004

kenoka · February 2004

"I know, my '98 Forester is still perfectly fine, but I'm shopping too!
-juice"
My sentiments exactly (including current car).

Ken

pathtomax · February 2004

I guess that did kind of come out funny... I meant the fact that the V6 only comes in AUTOMATIC.

Of course, my Subaru is a boy ..but not straight

zman3 · February 2004

That it is a horizontally opposed 6 cylinder, or H6, not a V6 - different cylinder orientation.

ateixeira · February 2004

I know, I was just teasing.

You want the H6 3.0 Rn Spec B, that's a 6 speed MT with the H6! It even gets Navi, but no US plans as of yet...

-juice

kevin111 · February 2004

Juice, since you have a Forester, which car would you be looking to go with first? Just curious if you are now contemplating giving up the Forester format.

Seems Subaru wants to be now known as the "Performance AWD Company"!!!! Am really curious to see how the GT compares with the other cars in its class (faster than all of them) and also the Near Luxury class (faster than all of them as well!) :-)

- Sounds like they are learning with the WRX success.

ateixeira · February 2004

I am firmly on The Fence.

I like the WRX wagon and was considering it until the Forester XT arrived. I prefer the XT's flexible torque curve and the extra space, easily worth the trade-offs for what would be our family car.

Two catches - still no moonroof with the MT, and we could use something a little bigger to carry 5 passengers and a dog.

The Legacy GT is mouth-watering. For the same price, I might go with this car. A little more room and sportier feel. You trade off some clearance, a full size spare, and higher price.

But we already have a 2002 Legacy, and they overlap a lot in terms of function. That's a big strike against it. What would I take to get milk after 12" of snow? I'd miss the clearance then.

So that brings us to the Outback XT. It has almost no trade-offs. I'd get a little more space, even more clearance than I have now, and I love the way it looks and the new features. 4 level heated seats and side curtains standard? Yum. Gimme a Limited to get that sweet moonroof with a MT, yes!

But....price! What will an Outback XT Ltd cost? Maybe a lot more than a Forester XT.

Then of course I have to drive them.

Last time around, I drove a '98 Outback, but I liked the smaller, lighter, nimbler Forester more. This is purely personal taste, BTW. It'll come down to the wire and certainly require a test drive or 3 to break the tie.

I drove the Forester XT and it knocked my socks off. Don't sample the 2.5T engine unless you will be buying one, everything else seems slow now.

-juice

hondafriek · February 2004

juice you'll be shopping for 2 more years:-)

Cheers Pat.

ateixeira · February 2004

Probably, because you can add the 7 seater to that list.

I think if none of the above 3 satisfy me completely, I'll wait to drive the big crossover.

-juice

kevin111 · February 2004

If you really like the Outback XT, you might be able to get discounting and/or rebates.

Also, the difference between 160 hp 4-cyl. and a 250 hp 6-cyl. is huge. May turn the Outback into a much more fun vehicle to drive.

ateixeira · February 2004

168 now, plus at 180 lbs lighter it may be fun even with the base engine.

The turbo will be a screamer, no doubt. It's geared very short so off the line it'll be blisteringly quick.

-juice

kernick · February 2004

you: But....price! What will an Outback XT Ltd cost? Maybe a lot more than a Forester XT.

me: The Outback XT Ltd. does sound nice. I hope what keeps prices in check, is the plethora of new AWD vehicles. Such as the BMW X3 starting at $31K, the Volvo wagons, the Audis, and the Touareg.
Subaru hopefully is probably targeting some of these as the competition. However those vehicles are luxury brands. If Subaru is going to price near those vehicles, they had better offer the same warranties and complimentary maintenance as the BMW's and such.

ateixeira · February 2004

If you look today, a base Outback is only about a grand more than a base Forester, and it already includes the AWP.

So add a little for the side curtain air bags and added content, but it's possible the OB-XT will only cost about $1500 more than the F-XT.

That would be a very tough call.

-juice

johnclineii · February 2004

So where would that put pricing on the Legacy 2.5 vs. the Outback 2.5 XT?

I'm still quibbling with myself about the Legacy 2.5 GT vs. a Ford Five Hundred...I am a wee bit concerned about turbo durability and don't really want a wagon but need the cargo space. The Ford I see as severely underpowered and not nearly as reliable as the proven Subaru drivetrains.

ateixeira · February 2004

The Ford 500 will be bigger but a lot less sporting. It's replacing the Taurus, so don't expect to hit any apexes too hard.

I think the Outback will cost slightly more with the same equipment, because it has tinted windows and a few unique features I expect like a pre-wired towing harness and an accessory plug in the cargo area.

We'll see, that's just a guess.

-juice

hondafriek · February 2004

If you look at the history Subaru Turbos have been totally reliable, and as an aside, as with all things mechanical thats provided they are maintained to manufacturers specs.

Modern day turbos are also more durable than previous generations, and I would venture to say in most cases of failure it comes down to owner abuse and not defective or fragile hardware.

Cheers Pat.

ateixeira · February 2004

If you read up on them, fluid circulates to continue cooling the turbo even after the engine shuts down. It's cool stuff.

The old Legacy turbo would get about 120k miles before it needed a turbo rebuild, but they should last even longer now.

-juice

spinaker · February 2004

Firstly I'd like to say that I do like the styling of the 2005 Legacy so don't shoot me after this post. However...

The styling is more evolutionary not revolutionary. I mean is it going to turn heads in a parking lot and how memorable is it?

In fact I find the styling very similar to other Japanese cars in the market (some quite old).

The Front
=========

My cousin has a 98 Altima and if you look at the two pictures (excluding the hood scoop) there is a similarity:

http://quark.phy.bnl.gov/~yokoya/img/altima.jpg
http://www.carworld.jp/car/subaru/legacy/photo/7-2-1.jpg

Not sure if the casual car owner (not a subie fan) would tell the difference. (compare the grilles)

The Back
========

If you look at these two pics the back of the car looks like the dreaded Camry. Especially the rear light clusters.

http://a332.g.akamai.net/f/332/936/12h/www.edmunds.com//pictures/- VEHICLE/2004/Toyota/100330043/023901-E.jpg
http://carpoint.ninemsn.com.au/ImageView.asp?image=/Content/Polk/- 400/j1ylibre.jpg

Almost identical.

- spinaker

ateixeira · February 2004

It is evolutionary, but a lot of people like that. It combines a rakish roof line with some currently trendy styling cues, like the headlights with the circles in them.

It looks like an update of that Altima, you could say. The next generation had they not gone with the different design.

Dunno, I think the Camry looks pretty different. It's tall while the Legacy looks squat. Check out the dual exhaust and the lower stance.

Sure, it's Japan Inc. all the way, but that's not necessarily bad. Personally I think the front is more Acura-ish, but the profile of the sedan especially follows the BMW 3 series' lines.

I'm curious, do you like the B11S? The B9SC? That's a radical departure, I like it but it may be too bold for many tastes.

-juice

mutsuraboshi · February 2004

From where the Legacy is coming from, in terms of styling. The looks of the 05's is brilliant. Fit and finish has certainly improved. And will not be classed as 'outdated' and 'goofy' looking again. 'Main stream' will come to mind.

Plus we were promised by FHI that the Subaru line will have its own distinctive look in the coming years. When you see one you will know it's one.

Basically everyone who sees the B11S on my desktop, first asks what car is that? then proceeds to say the design is nice/cool. This comes from non-enthusiasts mostly girls.

So i say again Subaru please build the B11S.

The B9SC is a little harder to swallow but i see the direction. A few more modifications and it too will have the striking looks of the B11S.

Luch

flapper · February 2004

I'm confused by something...on the 2005 OB 3.0's, are there 3 different models? I know the the one with VDC is top of the line, but can you get a 3.0R without getting the L.L. Bean version?

buddhabman · February 2004

The Legacy has never been about dramatic style, it's more about a being reliable, functional and competent drivers car. The styling lines have been faily easy to live with. The key to making the Legacy a success in the US is the engine and the interior. It seems like Subaru has addressed these issues. People who have never driven a Subaru, but who drive this car and compare it to the Altimas, Maximas, Mazda 6's,Camrys, TSX's TL's, X-Types, Volvos, VW's, 3's, G35's will find it pleasantly surprising. If the price is right between 25-26K for base and 28-33K full boogie, fully loaded then you have an good buy. It is a little pricey for the regular 4 banger but Legacy's drive much better than the competing Hondas, Toyotas. Mazda's compete, but they are in the same boat, pretty underappreciated. It's just a matter of selling the point of upgraded materials "class & style", safety "AWD" and of course the new levels of performance.

hondafriek · February 2004

Wrong with evolutionary? Honda has done this for years with the Accord and it sure as hell has'nt done them any harm, I would rather have evolutionary than the radical styling that is coming down the pike now.

Some classic designs have been destroyed, some of the present model BMWs come to mind, the present Camry is one ugly looking car in my opinion, and the Avalon is even worse.

Cheers Pat.

ssnyder4 · February 2004

Can anybody clarify whether or not the dual sunroofs in the new Outback will both open completely? The website does mention an entire redesign of the sunroofs. The prior generation, despite the neat dual sunroof design, really agitated me after a while given that the roof over the driver only pops up -- not open, while the backseat roof actually opens entirely. Perhaps a nit-picky item, but it would really sway me one way or the other into buying a new '05 OB or not if somehow both pieces of the dual sunroof system retracted entirely.

Thanks,
Shane.

spinaker · February 2004

Ok forgive the really long post.....Like I mentioned in my original post I DO like the styling of the new Legacy. In fact here are some of the best pics I have seen:

http://babelfish.altavista.com/babelfish/urltrurl?lp=ja_en&ur- - - - l=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.carworld.jp%2Fcar%2Fsubaru%2Flegacy%2Fhtml%2Fi- - - - ndex.html
http://www.carworld.jp/car/subaru/legacy/html/index7.html

(Note most of the pics show the Spec B which is only avail in Japan shown with the beautiful bumper and 18" alloys, my Subaru all I want for christmas list is getting too long!)

I think Subaru has done the right things:

1) revamped the interior - world of difference with the previous gen
2) beefed up performance

To make the car physically outstanding and memorable Subaru has to take more chances with styling cues which also increases the risk of acceptance. I guess this is not something Subaru could afford at this point. I think we will see more radical designs later (see more below).

To me (and I am entitled to my opinion!) the car still has a very Japanese style to it. In my opinion I see some of the best styled cars coming from Europe (excluding the Bangled BMWs). One of the things that they all have are characteristics easily identifiable with the brand e.g.:

Rolls Royce - Flying lady and that huge vertical grill
BMW - Dual kidney grilles
Mercedes - Dual round/oval headlamps
Aston Martin - Classic grille
etc

Audi - is trying to create the new face:

Concept Coupe: http://www.autoshow21.com/autoshow/data/3125959audi_nuvolari01.jp- - - - - - - - - g
New A6: http://www.vwvortex.com/artman/uploads/a6_front2.jpg

Now for example I don't like the look of the new A6, probably because the style of the grille is so different and radical. Then again I didnt like the old E-Class mercedes when it first came out as it was the first to use dual oval headlamps but we are so used to seeing that now. So will the new Audi look be accepted? time will tell, this is the risk car designers take. I don't like it when they over use the look though, look at the A6 steering wheel:

http://www.vwvortex.com/artman/uploads/a6_interior.jpg

This brings me to the new Subaru face and the B11S and B9SC concept cars. Juice, Do I like them? The answer is No, BUT I do see potential. Why? What do the following cars have in common and which is the odd one out?

1) http://www.subdriven.com/artman/uploads/leg25.jpg
2) http://www.carmily.org/storage/set_img/car/alfaromeo/GiuliettaSpr- - - - - - - - - intCoupe_01_fs_la.jpg
3) http://www.subdriven.com/artman/uploads/subarub9scfront3.jpg
4) http://www.northeastasia.net/qcbl/cmsj/ppch/images/alfa_nuvola_1.- - - - - - jpg

The answer is obviously the first one is the odd one out. It was designed by Subaru's Japanese led team. The others are either Alfa Romeo's or designed by Andreas Zapatinas (newly appointed chief designer at Subaru ex-Alfa Romeo). The Legacy design was actually completed before he joined so he could not influence the design of that car.

The center grille of Alfa Romeos has always been a triangle. I think Subaru is trying to put the center grille as a rhomboid. Now if you see some of Alfa Romeo's latest designs they really good, now if Andreas can run the same magic at Subaru, the design future looks VERY promising and we will see some of that European flavor shining through. Imagine designs similar to these:

http://www.alfacentro.com/features/kamal/images/kamal1.jpg
Possibly Subarus 7 seater?: http://www.italiancar.com.au/images/Alfa_Kamal_01_lg.jpg
http://users.skynet.be/alfaromeo/pics/alfa156-2003-06-n.jpg

http://users.skynet.be/alfaromeo/pics/alfa166-2003-03.jpg

The 3 part grilles work for Alfa Romeo especially in the SUV listed above. In my opinion doesn't quite work on the B11S and B9SC yet.

- spinaker

rob999 · February 2004

The new sunroof opens up completely over the front seats and is quite a nice design. The front section is only about 6" wide and pops up to become a wind deflector, and the back section is a more traditional sunroof. The net result is that the driver gets a wide open view above. Very nice!

subearu · February 2004

From my visit to the Chicago show last week:

The full size photos can be seen here, along with a few other Subie pics: http://www.imagestation.com/album/?id=4287729491

(You need to be a member of imagestation to view the album, it's free to sign up)

-Brian

ateixeira · February 2004

That Alfa SUV would be the most stylish on the market if they produced it. I love it.

Here is another moonroof pic:

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid103/p5cefb644cffbbb1d31e- 81bcbac4e17d9/f9a00bf5.jpg

My daughter is in the back seat and pokes out through the opening easily. That's a stranger in the front seat, but you see the coverage the moonroof has.

The new Legacy has to be seen in 3D, really. Check out this pics to see what I mean:

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid98/p4a63209fad65bf705d96- 8a4994ed1df6/fa03fdef.jpg

Look at how pulled back the headlights are, the front is sort of V-shaped. You don't see that in a full frontal pic, those look 2 dimensional.

-juice

6thbeatle · February 2004

the problem with the corporate grill design of the more recent italian-designed subaru concept cars is that while the alfas traditionally use a "superman crest" type opening, the new subarus must differentiate themselves with an inverted, "pyramid" style opening. design-wise, this bottom heavy geometric shape does not convey as light and balanced an appearance as the other shape.

the easiest way to picture this difference is to imagine joe weider or charles atlas "before and after" photos. the first man is usually pear-shaped, with his weight hanging around his middle section (greater mass towards the bottom), while the second photo will invariably show a man with a strong "V" shape with broad straight shoulders tapering down to a slim waist. this design shape has universal appeal, unlike the dunce cap/pyramid/jabba the hut/hershey kiss/soft coil of something shape. you be the judge.

btw, i absolutely love the new legacy and outback styling. that light metallic blue outback looks stunning. i think mercedes is going to have a hard time justifyng the price of a C-class wagon with that piece of machinery beside it. and don't forget the awesome mackintosh stereo deck with the retro 70s tuner dials. subaru has hit a home run with these babies, that's for sure. can't wait!!!

otis123 · February 2004

Here's a good shot of the 2005 nav, radios - reg & Mac, and sunroof opened...(Japan version)

http://www.carworld.jp/car/subaru/legacy/html/index6.html

Ralph

otis123 · February 2004

SOA would be smart if they put the rear wiper on the 2005 Outback sedan like the Japanese Legacy sedan. Looks very cool and all-weather. Enhances the image...

Ralph

hondafriek · February 2004

The rear wiper on the sedan is the law in Japan, and i don't why our legislators think a wagon needs a wiper and a sedan does not, granted a wagon gets dirtier quicker, but a sedan driver needs as much rear vision as a wagon, so I would be in favour for rear wipers on sedans.

Cheers Pat.

rsholland · February 2004

I wish USDM sedans had a rear wiper. The only sedan with a rear wiper sold here is the Mitsu EVO.

Bob

glycinemax · February 2004

Neither http://www.need-desire.com/main.html nor the 3rd Gen. OB press release http://www.media.subaru.com/ mention the availability of a rear limited slip differential on the the two NA H4 OBWs. It is available on the turbo and H6 models. Is SOA dropping this feature or is this just an omission on these preliminary spec.s?

spinaker · February 2004

I'd just like to say that I am not bowled over by the styling of the B9SC or the B11S. In fact I do not like them much and really thought that the 3 piece grille looked ugly. The message I wanted to convey in my previous post was that when I saw some of the Alfa designs they made a 3 piece grill look pretty good, especially on their prototype SUV. Now having the designer from Alfa as the head designer there is the potential in that something interesting for Subaru may be on the way - radical and unique.

As for the significance of the upside down pyramid I dont know, I think they were trying to create something different. I also don't think they have decided on a shape for sure. Here are three concept Subarus the B9SC, the R2 and the R1 each has a slightly different shape for the center grille. Of the three I think that the R1 is the most promising. The center grille is flattened on the top and the bottom and the overall shape of the grille is like some wings, like the Aston Martin insignia.

B9SC: http://www.subdriven.com/artman/uploads/subarub9scfront3.jpg
R2: http://www.subaru.co.jp/r2/special/gallery_data/subarur2_e3_s.jpg
R1: http://www.autoweek.nl/images/Articles/1931/subaru-r1e-gr.jpg
Aston Insignia: http://www.formel1.ch/Automarken%20Logos/Aston%20Martin%20Logo.gi- - - - f

- spinaker

6thbeatle · February 2004

i agree with your assessment. the R1 is the most handsome and sporting of the three grill designs. the nose on the B9SC looks quite cartoonish like the protruding round black nose of some kind of cute weasel who's got a bad cold, while the R2 is better, but still has that inverted triangular shape which gives its face a flared piggy nostril look which i find rather unappealing.

the R1 does indeed have the prettier look of spread wings, which gives it a lighter more clever appearance, although i myself would reposition the badge to the front edge of the hood instead, thus cleaning up the central snout. seeing someone with a piece of something in their nose gives one a rather unhealthy feeling. better to clean up that central opening. nissan, please take note of this with your recent redesign of the proboscis on the new maxima, quest and sentra.

spinaker, do you have any pictures of that white sports coupe that came out last year with a similar face design as the aforementioned subarus? is that the B11S? i'd like to see it and compare. i was quite impressed by it at the time.

Subaru Legacy/Outback 2005+

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