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Cabover Camper Chat
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Sorry to say Brutus but the 6.0 outpulled the Ford V10 in a Car & Driver TV test I saw recently. The extra 800 lbs on the SD really hurt it in the comparison. I suppose that weight buys something like a stronger frame etc.
If you put a 5th wheel trailer on a 3/4 tone truck with the 6.0L that is hits the maximum tow rating of the vehicle and then you strap that same size trailer on a 3/4 ton Superduty with the V-10 and then have both of them travel a few thousand miles through the Rockies, the torque advantage of the V-10 will be obvious.
The extra 800 pounds wouldn't be a factor at that point since both trucks would be carrying a heavy load. The Chevy would be at max tow limit and the Ford would still be a few thousand under since the Superduty has a higher tow rating. Of course, it's an assumption that all else is equal, such as axle ratio, cab size, 2wd vs 4wd, etc.
This isn't a knock on the 6.0L. Most people don't need more engine than that. The trailers towed in the TV test are likely closer to what most people will be towing. It just goes to show that most people don't need more engine than that. When they do, and if they are determined to buy a Chevy and stick with the gas engine, they will just move up to the 7.4L.
For me personally, with the weight of my rig, I like the torque of the V-10, especially in combo with the 4.30 axle ratio. I do a lot of traveling through mountain passes. MPG wasn't an issue for me or I probably would have considered a diesel. I know someone who has the same size camper as me and has a Superduty with the PSD. He gets about 5mpg better than me with the camper on.
Speaking of mpg, I lose about 1mpg in the winter since I tend to start the truck up about 10 minutes before I leave in the morning to de-ice and I also use 4wd more. I use the ESOF alot in the winter and have never had a problem. The shift to 4wd is pretty instantaneous. The shift back to 2wd usually takes a few more revolutions of the wheels.
I like your choice of std cab. Pewter was our first choice for color, until we saw it under street lights - it looks too brassy! We ordered Charcoal Metallic and love it! I have added the fender flares (in matte black) and they really set of the truck.
One of these days I'll get out the camera and post some pictures. Boy, I've been saying that for 6 months now.
You've probably got the camper on now and will be on the road every chance you get.
Later,
Mike
I sure trust you guys more than the dealer. I asked the dealer he said it would because a customer just hauled an 11 footer out on a new shortbed Chev. Thanks Steve
I've seen it done. You will need heavy duty air bags for the rear. Rental units in Alaska put 10.5 campers on 2500s. And tourists don't care about the truck.
Weigh the camper if you can. A 2500 is rated for a maximum payload of 3300 lbs (base). If you add AC and other equipment on the truck it comes down. A couple of passengers, clothes, food, etc can easily weigh 500lbs. My guess is your total payload will be 7-800 lbs above the weight of the camper.
My Silverado has a max payload of 2000 lbs and a 1200 lb camper put me 100lbs over max.
Let us know what you do.
Mike
I'm sure the truck will do it even though you will likely be 1000 lbs over limit. You will need to beef up the rear suspension with bags or springs for sure. The lifetime of the driveline components would be a concern if you use it this way a lot. I assume the brakes are good enough now that it would be safe. I don't know any way to verify that up front.
That kind of load should go on a 1 ton truck. The Lance dealer here told me they won't put a 11' camper on a 3/4 ton truck.
Remember, even though the extra space is nice, you have to maneuver that extra length around. If you expect to get into tight spots (off-road etc.) then I'd lean toward the shorter unit. You should look at both before deciding. One item I've found important is holding tank size. My camper is 9.5' and has small tanks compared to the biggies. My black water tank is 13 gallons which is a problem for extended use. I can get about 3-5 days with two people using it sparingly. The gray water is similar but some people have been known to dump it if really pushed (not that I would ever do such a thing!). The big units have tanks more like 20+ gallons. One other thing to check, mine has a nasty design feature; the shower drains into the black water tank. Some smaller campers do this. It is a drag because it fills up the black tank fast and if you aren't near a dump station then what do you do. I've actually built a pump system to get around this but it's a hassle.
Let us know how they look.
That 1000lbs feels mighty good as we pass the frequent broken down RV's on roads in the far north. Even with the Alaska highway pretty much paved there every gas station along the way has big signs advertising welding/shocks/springs/tires. If you get into the Northwest Territories slogging through some deep mud and heavy duty ruts you need all of that 1000lbs exta GVW. Anyone who starts 300 miles of gravel with a truck camper better have new 10 ply tires or be prepared to get help. If I were younger, I would think of opening a tire store in Inuvik.
Our rig is just strong enough to handle this type of travel and has taken us to the start of some adventurous canoe trips. We spent 5 months going to Alaska and the Yukon in '95 (28 days in our canoe on the Yukon River) and two months in the Northwest Territories in '97 (25 days on the South Nahanni River).We have also driven various Utah/Wyoming desert roads in getting to portions of the Green River we have canoed.
Along the way we spotted a wonderful restoration of an Avion slide-in camper done by a real craftsman. He had taken the original all aluminum shell and installed beautiful new woodwork, all new systems, etc. I've been looking for a basket case Avion to restore ever since without any luck. Anybody have one? Then, I would have to get a truck that would have a bit more oomph for the mountain passes - we spend a lot of time in 3rd - and we would be all set.
I'm going to install Nerf bars, & a bug shield, but not too sure on what shield to get. I,ve heard the Lund, & the Bug deflector II might be a good choice. Any thoughts? Love this truck!!!!!!!!
Gary-
Take it easy during the break-in period and be sure to complete the 500 miles before putting the camper on. As you may have read in other topics, the bug deflector may make the rubber windshield gaskets chatter. If so they just need to be glued/taped down. Let us know how it's going and what your impressions & questions are.
I didn't know they made popups that long. Does it have a full bathroom? How much does it weigh? Your truck weighs about 5000 lbs so that makes the camper about 2400 pounds? Sounds heavy for a popup.
Congratulations. I've got 21,000 on my truck and I still feel good everytime I get in it. Hope your new never wears off. It is one of the benefits of ordering the truck you really want instead of settling for what the dealer has. I agree with on break-in. Relatively slow speeds, no hard starts or stops, plenty of shifting, no hard pulling. A winding road through the hills is a good place to go.
Stabbur,
I'll definitly agree with you on tires. I think anybody who puts a camper on a truck with P-series tires is asking for trouble. There is not enough safety margin built into those tires. LT series only.
My truck is loaded to max GVWR and we had it up in the far north (as far north as you can go on a road) and through the NWT (it was dry) and at least 2000 miles of northern dirt and gravel on Load Range 'C' tires. I think that is equal to 6 ply rating. No flats, not a single tire problem. We saw a lot of tire problems, but most were P series tires and/or balding. LT tires with plenty of tread go a long ways towards preventing problems. But then, maybe we were lucky.
Vince,
I for one would like to see your explanation of installing the aux battery tray. If you don't want to post it here, you can e-mail it to me. How is your truck/camper? Got that bad boy up and running yet? Going camping for the long weekend?
Take care guys,
Mike
Since I just finished installing the aux battery box and an isolator in my Dodge, I'd be interested to see what had to be done for a Chevy. My battery box, hold-down, bolts, etc. cost $55 from my dealer. The isolator (120 Amp) was $49, and another $20 for cables and a circuit breaker. The only major change I made was to feed my 7-way trailer hitch positive connection from the aux battery, rather than the truck battery, since my camper plugs into the truck's receiver connection.
I did not want a hole in the bed for the camper connection, so I extended the electrical wires back to the receiver, and connected a 7-way adapter to fit. I also added a 4-way flat connector, so I can still tow the boat with the camper installed.
www.alaskancamper.com
www.alcancamper.com
This slide in has no provision for an auxiliary battery and the Ford 250 with the 251 has no room under the hood for an extra battery. I mounted our deep cycle auxiliary in a carrier along side the left frame member just in front of the left rear spring shackle.(Where the infamous Chevvy gas tanks were located!) It tucked up well in that location and has been undisturbed for 4.5 years now. I put a piece of plastic against the frame since I worried about acid splash, but with the no maintenance batteries I don't think I should have bothered. When wired into the Ford trailer package no isolator is needed since this circuit is isolated when the ignition is off. It was originally installed without a fusible link and this was added after I realized what might happen if we had a short. It was possible to route the cable to the camper up through the narrow space between the fender and box-side, into the post socket and then out into the top of the box through the porthole in the post socket. I slipped some wire loom over the cable to protect it over this route and it put the plug right in the front left corner of the box where the connection on the slide in is located.
Electric has been just fine. I added a low wattage inverter which is handy. I replaced the 30 amp vinyl covered cable supplied with the camper because it was too unruly on cold mornings. The new cable is better, but still is a pain when it is really cold. I may switch to a heavy duty rubber covered cable.
Plumbing is another story. Leaks in the blackwater system. Each repair worked its way down the piping to where I think it may now be fixed. I suspect the problem is large diameter PVC to ABS fittings in too short a distance to accommodate torsion/flex etc. I have now put in a neoprene coupler and if it stays where it belongs and gives a bit when required, our problem may be cured.
Nice to hear about the new trucks. It is a great day when you finally take the wheel. Who has the Northern Lite. Do you like it?
I have (soon to be had) a '89 F-250 with the 5.0L and I managed to squeeze a second battery in the engine compartment. It's located against the firewall on the driver's side, between the brake booster and the fender. It was a tight fit. The worst part was the crappy tray and hold downs I bought at the auto store. They are made overseas and didn't hold up well. My camper has a battery too but I wanted two in parallel for longer stays without driving.
I've never had any plumbing problem with my Lance but it doesn't go off road much. That banging around must take its toll on the plumbing and more. What do you use the inverter for? I bought one but have yet to use it.
I agree that the Alcan looks nice. The first camper I ever looked at was an Alaskan that unfortunately had sat too long in a puddle of water in the pickup body. It was well cared for otherwise but the bottom was going to drop out of it when it was moved. As I remember they wanted $300 for it. I like that utility body that the Alcan is sitting on. That would make our gear much more accessible than it is when stuffed down in the truck bed.
Vince, I also would like more info. on the aux. batt..
Mike, I hope the newness last a long time.. I think it will, since I won't be driving it to work very often. I'll give it hell on the week ends though. When you say shifting, are you talking about using 2& 3, as well as drive?
To all the group- have a GREAT Thanksgiving! Love that truck!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Gary-
For the first oil change, I'll do mine around 1500 miles. If there is ever a time to change the oil early, it's the first time. For the differential, I don't agree with the salesman. The manual actually doesn't specify an oil change at any time. He was probably thinking about a limited slip differential, in which case the fluid is very important. The rear diff has synthetic oil in it which holds up for a long time.
For brand of oil, I use Castrol but suspect I'm a sucker for advertising. I believe the frequency of changing is more important than brand as long as you stick with a good oil. I'm going to switch to synthetic at about 10,000 miles.
I suppose if I go out & spin my wheels & there's two black streaks, not one, then I have the right locker?
Gary-
I just went and looked at mine, there is a check plug and a drain plug. So much for his expert knowledge. Mine also has a streak of wet coming from the driveshaft seal. That doesn't seem right for 1300 miles. I'll add it to my dealer to-do list.
At a labor rate of $70/hr and say $120 of parts (brackets,electrical) that works out to four hours labor. That seems a bit on the high side. My dealer quoted one hour to put the brackets on. Gary, what did the Lance place quote you?
So why is your Silverodo going to take so long? Did you order 4 doors?
If the trucks needed no break-in, then GM would say so. It would be a sales feature. They suggest a break-in method that reduces warranty. Your mechanic might suggest a break-in that increases his repair income. GM has nothing to gain and everything to loose if you don't break it in properly. Follow the factory method. I changed my oil the first time at 500 miles. Went to synthetic at 3000 miles. Now I follow the oil minder light on the dash and change when it tells me too. With conventional oil I change every 2500 miles because it is easier to remember than 3000 miles. I know I have to change at 52,500, but with 3000 mile changes is it 52,000 or 53,000?
Gary, by shifting, I meant all gears, but I have a manual transmission. But it is good to go slow and use some of the other gears. Use everything, first to make sure it works, second to allow the parts to mate under less load.
Went down into the Los Padres Natl Forest this weekend. Some bad roads in there. 5-10mph in 4wd low range for miles. Some very impressive views in there also. My wife picked Limekiln State Park to spend the night. On Hwy 1 with both beach and redwood camping. We were way back in the woods. Hiked back to the lime kilns, and way back to the waterfalls. That's a very nice place. My wife picked up a tick however. And by the time we noticed it, it's head was way deep. Kaiser took it out, cause I couldn't get it out, and didn't want to leave the head inside.
I sure do like that low range in the transfer case. I found the fuse for 4wd in the left side of the dash. Open the door and pull the end panel off the dash. Locate the fuse. Pull the fuse and you can have 2wd low range. Perfect for loading and unloading the camper, pulling on pavement. I think I will put a switch in that line, so I don't have to pull the fuse to get 2wd Low.
Back to work,
Mike
1. $375 installed ( Air bags)Two
lines
2.$85 for tie downs, including a
1" piece of square tubing
to reinforce the two front
brackets from torqueing the
metal.
3. Around $50 for all the elec-
trical
These Air lift bags are made for Lance only, which have an inner bag so you can deflate them entirely & ride on your normal suspension. The inner bag protects the outer bag. Anyway, I'm going up there Monday. Get it done & over with.
I've determined I have the G80 lock, & as far as the oil & rear end, I'm going 1500mi on the oil, & the rear end I was told it doesn't need to be changed at 3k.
Mike- Those ticks can be real nasty. I've pulled many a tick out of animals, but never a human. I went out today, & found a place to go through all my gears, 4Hi, Lo etc.. Works great. Never been to Los Padres.. Sounds real nice, except for the ticks.
Gary-
How do you find those rugged roads you describe? Is it okay to just drive on any dirt road you see? What about fire roads? I haven't done that type of driving yet but would like to explore a little. Did you have the camper on?
Your 2wd low trick is clever but I don't see the point. I think I've got plenty of low end torque to do anything normal and would just jump into 4wd if I really needed low range. I guess turning a lot on pavement could be an issue but how often do you need to do both?
Let me know about the road, I'm interested in what would force you into 4wd low.
Vince
I didn't know about the special air bag design. Air Lift is very adamant in there literature that the #1 cause of failure is under-inflation. The rubber gets pinched if you bottom out with no air pressure. In fact I get double warranty because I installed their compressor kit which has pressure switches to automatically keep at least 5psi in the bags. I guess the inner bag in yours offers the same protection.
The roads we went on were all on our maps, so we think they are fair game. Actually, anything that is not marked 'No Trespassing' or so, is fair game. Yes we had the camper on, so we had a fair amount of weight and needed low range to pull up some of the hills. And to creep along at very low speeds on the rough stuff. My wife did not like hills that steep. Going up one canyon, we saw a car and a truck 1/2 down the opposite side. Kinds of makes you respect the road a little more. Found some really nice places to camp back in there, and we will return.
I've tried 4wd on dry pavement and it binds up and stops the truck when you try to turn sharply. Because the driveshafts both turn at the same speed, something has to give. Either a part breaks or tire slips on the pavement. It puts a lot of stress on the drivetrain and I worry about breaking something. I've got enough power to pull in 2wd high, but want to go slower. In low range the speed is 1/2 what it is in high range. So I can idle back under the camper at 1-2 mph w/no throttle. Usually in high range I have to give it some throttle and slip the clutch. I guess this is one case where an automatic has some advantage. Now where is that stump that needs pulling?
Mike
I've got shift-on-the-fly in my truck. I use it quite a bit. If the roads are dry and not iced, I'll keep in 2wd, especially on the hwy. If I need 4wd, I'll shift out of it right before I enter a parking lot to avoid the "wobble turn". Even if it doesn't hurt the truck, I've got to believe that it does put some excess wear on it. I'll shift back into 4wd right before I exit the parking lot, so I can easily get out into traffic. I tend to use the 4wd to get out of parking lots into fast traffic even I end up turning it off right away once I get on the road I am entering. There is nothing fun about needing to get out into traffic quick only to be halfway out in the road with your rear tires still in the parking lot spinning.
A good rule of thumb that I like to follow with hills is to use the same gear to go down the hill as you used to get up it. Generally, you're climbing through a pass over over a hitll where you climb one side and descend the other side. The temptation is to go faster on the descent, but with a camper, you could get up too much speed and have to use excess braking or hard downshifting. If you climbed the hill in 2nd or 3rd, you should probably descend in that same gear. That's produced the best results for me most of the time.
If it didn't take so long to drive to Alaska from here I'd go for sure. The combined trip is so long I'd have to take an extended vacation or leave of absence from work. Some companies around here give you a 4-5 week sabbatical after 5 yrs employment, I was really hoping to get one of those jobs for just such a reason. But alas, I decided I wanted to work for HP and they don't offer such a thing. So here I sit reading about Alaska.
This is my first 4wd truck and I'd like to take an off-road driving class. Does anyone know of any or have any experience with such a thing? Since it doesn't snow here I don't get much practice in that environment either. That must be a strange concept for you Brutus since you deal with it every day. I'm not out to tame the Rubicon trail. I just don't want to be one of those unlucky fools in the ditch you talk about, or one of those cars 1/2 way down the canyon Mike mentioned. I know of one school that used to be taught by the daughter of the guy (Mark Smith) who founded the Jeepers Jamboree Rubicon thing. I don't know if they still have that school but I guess I will check. It's way up in Gary's neck of the woods so kind of a long drive.
I find that there are two important ingredients to snow driving: Momentum, and friction. The two should be quite independent of each other but become related fast with sudden moves. Don't make sudden moves. To cope with lots of snow you need momentum, but don't forget that when you need it, friction may not be there. I wouldn't practice with a camper on the truck, but the few times we have run into snow with the camper that lake practice experience has come in handy. We live on a dirt road in New England and we have lots of snow. Up to now we have been 2 wheel drive. Because our roads have been empty I could keep momentum as my trump card. Now more people are moving to the area, the roads are more crowded, especially with people who creep along in their SUV's. Maybe we'll have to go to 4wd next.
I agree that you need plenty of time to take an Alaska trip. I decided to go when a fellow showed us a movie of rafting the Yukon River when I was in Boy Scouts back in 1944. I had to wait until 1995 when I retired to make the trip. It was great and we will go again.
You're right on with the advice for snow driving. I usually tell people to take the vehicles to a large empty parking lot at night, like a Walmart, after it's closed and practice slamming on the brakes and making fast turns. I really like driving in the winter, although I wouldn't like it as much without the 4wd. With my duallys, it's night and day in 4wd vs 2wd. I've sat at a light in an icy intersection before and practically been stuck in 2wd. When I shift to 4wd, I can pull away from the light with a heavy throttle and no loss of control since all four tires are rotating.
Of course, breaking traction at hwy speeds is a major no-no, regardless of whether you have 4wd or not. Most people that I see that get in trouble o the hwy are either breaking traction, following too close, or changing lanes too quickly. I'm a fairly agressive driver, but those are things that you can't do in winter conditions, regardless of whether you do them in the summer or not.
I've been up and down the Alaska Hwy several times. The last time was returning to Anchorage in January. I had my camper on at the time. I had just picked up from a dealer in BC. It was my first truck camper, so I was just getting use to driving with it on at the time. I kept the truck in 4wd most of the time since there was plenty of ice and snow on the road. I'm sure the extra weight of the camper helped rearend traction, but that is not as vital of an issue if you are in 4wd. With the front of a pickup pulling in 4wd, the rearend will pretty much follow it anywhere. It's when the rearend is trying to push the front end without any aid from the front axle that causes you to get squirelly (yeah, I made that word up).
Just mounted the Titan hitch on my 2500 LS 4X4 ext cab SB. Installation was smooth. What a hitch! Also mounted the Torklift frame tie downs,
fronts mount smooth, rears mount with three 1/2" bolts to the titan hitch (drilling required). You may want to look at their Web site www.torklift.com where they show some damage to trucks from the box mounted tiedowns.
Look at your truck, my truckbox appears to be mounted directly to the frame ( without any rubber mounts ) which is why I went with the frame mount.
My camper spec (glove box) is 2215 lbs with A=65" and B=0". My Payload (from 2000 brochure) is 3115 lbs, which is a difference of 900 lbs.
Compare to your 2500 LS 4X4 reg cab LB: camper spec is 2800 lbs with A=81" and B=14". Payload (from 2000 brochure) is 3334 lbs, which is a difference of 534 lbs.
The A and B specs may be due to SB vs LB camper layouts? The the differences in B dimensions (min camper CG) between our trucks may be why they have more "padding" on the SB. Hope I'll be OK with about 2800 lbs with CG about 20". Once I get it hooked up I'll measure the GAWR and if I'm OK front and rear, I'll be happy.
You will be over the recommended max with the new camper but with the air bags etc. it should be fine. The motor and trans are easily up to the job.
I'll write a note on my Air Lift Super Duty bag installation. There are things to know that I learned the hard way. I'll e-mail it when ready.
I noticed your camper has plumbing (drains) running under the back of the camper. Will this plumbing block access to the spare tire winch? If it does, you should think of a way around the problem before you have a flat and cannot get the spare out.
Other than that, the winch works well.
No big problems installing the bar? I think it would have gone easier if I had seen a successful installation before I started.
We're looking forward to seeing your trip reports on this newsgrooup. You don't have to go directly to Alaska. Make that trip out to the Dakotas and Montana. If you want to know some places to visit, ask and you will get some. But, we want to read that trip report when you get back.
Mike
I had a thought and called Hellwig. Sure enough, Robert thought they used a 1/2 ton to redesign the mounts (and I'll bet to design the bar). So I'm going to whine about the mounts and the bar itself. It is just too short. I suspect the truck they used had a smaller rear differential. Does anyone know if a 1/2 ton diff. is smaller? Maybe without locker? Robert was very nice and said they would fix it. I guess I get to do the job over again, at least twice if I get new parts. It's amazing how a vehicle that's been out well over a year is still such a mystery to parts suppliers.
I changed my oil tonight for the first time. The magnet did have some metal goo on it (1550 miles). Kind of wish I'd changed it earlier but I had a long trip over Thanksgiving and that bumped up the mileage. Then I spent 2 days looking for a dumb oil filter. Wal-mart & K-mart only carry the PF58 and I needed a PF59. Finally found them at Pep Boys. They had the Ultra Gold AC Delco filters but again only up to PF58 so I bought a regular one. The PF59 cost $5.99 whereas the PF58 was only $3.29 ($2.89 at the 'marts) and they look the same.
I just changed my oil last night too. Not much on the magnet after 750 miles ( right behind you Vince ). Didn't find any PF59s at Wal and K-mart here also. Auto-Zone had AC Delcos PF59s for 2.99 though.
Too bad on the sway bar troubles. Talked to Hotchkis and they are going to have a 3/4 ton 4X4 model available in about 2-3 months (model 2232 or 2232R for rear only). I can't wait that long, I was hoping your Hellwig would work out. Going to try IPD today and see if they make something.
My lance 820 should be on its way from the factory this week. Need to finish all my "mods" soon for some Christmas camping in south Florida.
Mike2