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Comments
Though this thread is mainly inhabited by men, we ought to try to avoid sexist remarks and stick to cars. I'm sure you agree.
hpowders: I agree that lots of reps and models at the car shows know little about the cars; but I've run into the same problem with men as with women. Last year at the L.A. auto show, e.g., at the Toyota and Lexus exhibits, nobody, men or women, seemed to know anything. Maybe that was because they send the "talent" to Detroit, where the big show was on at the same time. But it's a general problem.
Granted that car manufacturers know that for men, there's no combo like cars and women. Thus the models. On the other hand, they've got male models there, too, not that there's anything wrong with that, to coin a phrase, who know just as little as the women.
Infiniti has already figured out their mission, to 1. put the hurt on Acura, and 2. attack BMW directly in strategic places. Doing this long enough with more models in the future will eventually earn some respect for the Infiniti name, at which point they may be able to branch out into other markets (maybe try at Lexus again).
Things are more difficult for Lexus. The ES, LS, and the SUVs are established and well liked by the US automarket, and they cant abandon them, or the reasons why people buy them over their competition. The problem is, the US automarket is the ONLY market where Lexus does well. Mercedes has the most prestige car sales in Japan, and good luck finding a Lexus on the street in Europe. Toyota is making gobs of money, so they really can experiment (and fail) in the sporty small and midsize segments as many times as they want. Eventually, they should be able to get it right. The '06 GS and IS should be the start of better sport cars from Lexus, but I hardly expect them to come up with world beaters on their second try. (Ok, 3rd try for GS.)
If you can rock here, you can rock anywhere!
Lexus is only 15 years old! I think the Germans have had a good enough head start.
They set up their company to take America by storm with quality, service, and dependability. Mission accomplished! Now onto mission two.
Make the cars more exciting, more desireable, increase the upper-crust appeal of the marque, while still maintaining the core value principle.
This will take another 5 years or so to complete.
THEN they can divide up the world and conquer it. You can tell lexus is still strategizing how to play in other markets.
It would appear taking over America was easy!
If they don't build a better 325i, I can forgive them. That's not why they're here.
They're here to take care of us. To give us all we need. THEN they can work on all our wants.
DrFill
"This will take another 5 years or so to complete."
Sure it will, because Lexus will have a 5 year vacuum all to themselves where no other automaker will be allowed to innovate or release new products.
Nothing wrong with you. You make excellent points, but I gotta disagree somewhat. So here is my take:
Like DrFill reminded you, Lexus is only 15 years in the market, versus 116+ for MB and 80+ for BMW. These are years you cannot overcome in a short time. Lexus strategy is a grand plan. It includes Toyota becoming the WORLD #2 car seller by 2010 or earlier. How do you think Toyota will achieve this ?
Second, hybrid technology adapted to automobiles, a trend that may very well define the next great innovation. And leading the charge is Toyota. When (if) you can make a car with a V12-performance and a V6 fuel economy, at 500bhp output, that is something outstanding ! Toyota will only improve market share going forward.
Thirdly, Toyota has the largest stash of CASH in the auto industry. Think they wanna just sit on it ? They are a profit-making machine. Exceeded 2million cars/trucks sold in the all-important NA market FY2004. That is something !
Toyota's name is GOLD in Japan. They dominate the Asian markets already. They made a slow start in China, but will catch up pretty soon - the power of money, influence, and prestige.
Now compare and contrast the above with BMW and MB. These two marques seem to be regressing lately. The best distinguishing facet of today's MB is its beautiful exterior designs. Is that what a marque should be known for ? And BMW is already losing its legendary ride quality that many owners rave about, so I hear (haven't driven a late model Bimmer to attest to this).Need we mention the deleterious effects of the new exterior styling and i-drive ?
Despite these, MB and BMW still largely retain their prestige and brand recognition, but they are more based on history than anything they are achieving lately. The most prestigious of them all - MB - even rated close to the bottom on reliability in its home country. How sad is that ! Sales are slumping as well, with MB now #4 in the US market, behind Cadillac. BMW is doing pretty well, relatively, but look threatened by Infiniti, and probably by Lexus. And if history is anything to go by, expect BMW to face more challenges from Japan in coming years. How will they respond ? Guess we'll see. Lexus already proved they can take on the mighty MB and beat them at their game. How will they do against BMW, we'll have to wait and see.
Lexus is still growing here, mostly taking M-B customers, but Mercedes slump may change as they introduce the new M and R classes, which I think will be big hits here. I noticed they arent offering free maintanence any more though...
Basically what I was saying is its going to be a long hard road for Lexus to get the kind of WORLD, not US, prestige of a M-B or BMW. They need cars that can sell world wide, a consistent and easily recognized design language, and offer real performance to people who want that in a Lexus.
But, uh, look.
Toyota's got their thing together. Do they look/act worried? It's not their way, but when a conservative, non-boastful company like Cho's 'Yota says we'll have 15% of the world in 5 years, you can bet the farm on that!!
Who looks worried to you? To Me?
Mercedes. GM. Ford. VW.
Who/What are they worried about?
Anywho, thing are falling right into place for 'Yota.
The next Tundra will double in sales by 2008, then double again in another 5-6 years. That's over 400k. That will come mostly out of Ford. I think GM will score pretty well with their next truck in 2007, too.
Prius sales will DOUBLE THIS YEAR in the US, much less elsewhere.
With the $3 gas prices in the rest of the world (we get a volume discount), do you think 'Yota's engine efficiency will gain acceptance?
And they have the money, product, and tech to catch VW in China, and be at least in the Top 3 there 5-10 years from now.
In Europe, they'll be behind the germans for a while more, with diesel so big there Germans head start even more pronounced there, with a greater emphasise on driving dynamics.
My point is, this ship is the Queen Mary, and everyone knows it! Their just rollin' now. In 5 years, it's rock and roll!
DrFill
P
Agree totally with you. Lexus lacks the history which time can bridge. They are starting with their own design trend (LF-S, LF-X, LF-A, LF-C). Launching the brand in Japan is the FIRST real step towards a worldwide presence. The first releases in the 06 GS, 06 IS and 07 LS will come soon enough, which may then show us how much forward progress the *new* Lexus brand will make worldwide. Hopefully, they will meet and exceed the lofty expectations WE have all placed on them.
"I don't care if these Germans going to release new breathtaking design sedans, I would never buy these cars if their ergonomics and electronics continues to be poor".
To prove my point, look at how the sales for the Fuga sedan in Japan have virtually exploded after 3 months of it’s release and most of the customers have traded their BMW and Mercedes for the Fuga. Because they trust that Nissan cars are reliable cars that aren’t break down as often as the Germans, despite they fully understand they won’t have as much driving excitement as they have with the Germans. The next GS sedan too like the Fuga would going to become very popular in Japan? Why?? From my exclusive test drive offer by Mr. Sato, I can tell that despite with it’s shortcomings such as the design and it’s driving dynamics might not be as good as the Germans. But nevertheless l do very appreciate the fact the car achieve a very good balance in terms of luxury and performance with excellent ergonomics, interior atmosphere, and good performance and dynamics if you want to push this car into it’s limits. Therefore, the GS is the sedan that can meet every driver needs no matter you like to push it hard or drive it leisurely. This is the key for Lexus success and I am very confident, no matter when Toyota enter into the Chinese market, they would beat out every competition and eventually become the best motor company in the world!
Lexus’s New Vision “DNA of Lexus: A good compromise between luxury and Performance” TV advertisement in Japan
Ken
While it is a very big advantage to have so much money at their disposal, execution of the product is even more important. Car companies that feel threatened or that are in a crisis often come out swinging and usually make some major hits when forced too. Thats all Toyota is going to do to GM, Ford, VW and MB and BMW on the luxury side. The Germans will fight to the death in Europe before they let anyone take over those markets.
The companies that are truly in trouble are Jaguar, Mitsu, and Isuzu. I also predict Porsche will eventually need to partner up, they're just too small.
M
It seems that a comparable Diesel model that can last into the hundreds of thousands of miles would be a more logical choice.
From all the water cooler talk from non-car guys/gals, they already recognize that prius for example does not live up to mpg claims and I hear a lot of id just buy a "Diesel Jetta" instead.
These are not my comments or definitive opinions but just a gage of the regular buying public....
Regards,
DL
Diesel works great in Europe, but it has yet to entice the American public. The "Clean diesel" thats supposed to be available next year might help things, but its also supposed to make the price of diesel go up, and it already costs as much as premium, so again, a few VWs arent going to make much of a dent against the hybrid onslaught by Honda and Toyota coming in the next few years. VW is having enough trouble selling ANY Jettas.
The Prius' success is not just because it is a hybrid-powered car, but because it is a Toyota, with a brand recognition as well as market leadership position in hybrid technology.
If the biggest complaint anyone has about the new GS (430 in this case) is the lateral seat support then I am content.
By the way, does anybody know if you must get the ML system if you get the navigation option. I suspect the reverse is necessary but can you get navi sans ML?
I guess the point is majority of true Diesel buyers want the vehicle to put 100k-200K + miles. I would submit that again the majority of upper level lux car buyers are typically a 36 month lease.
About a year or so ago I was in a local MB dealer that had a 1998 300d , asking price ? same as new! And there were 3 offers for the vehicle while I was standing there.
Does hybrid technology need to be explored ? absolutely! in a 65k vehicle does it make sense ? I guess we will see.
Regards,
DL
Drove the 2006 M35 today, sweet.... How do you think the 2006 GS will compare?
As for the GS300, Edmunds has a "First Drive" thingy written up, but from the content it looks like they never even drove the car (yet). So not much to say about the GS.
DL
The GS300 uses Lexus' traditional VDC system so it wont have any of the advanced VDIM features (e-brakes, Lexus' version of active steering, etc.) So at least with the V6 versions, the M should definitely be the sportier of the two.
Really like the E class size. The car is a lot more attractive and classy than last year. I kind of prefer the GS front end look but that is a blonde/brunnette thing. Your right on the stiffer ride, certainly feel the road on the 18" standard wheels. Accleration was impressive, braking and handling super. The M45 would be a rocket that would put a permanent smile on your face.
Nit picking: only found two things..If your phone isn't blue tooth, then you will have wires to the cigar lighter in the ash tray. Not a 12V outlet in the console. Wish they offered 17" wheels as an option, 18" V rated tires are more performance orientated than I need.
Really? You don't say!
DrFill
What was the sticker price of the M you drove?
If you want to create a topic to discuss the merits of BMW v Infiniti v Mercedes v Lexus, go ahead on the News & Views board. We already have some luxury marque discussions on the Sedans board that would be appropriate for that conversation.
Last warning or this topic is dead.
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The dealer had a blank sticker on the window, exact pricing had not come in yet. "TBD"
After looking the brochure over it really looks more like a mid-model restyling,not so much a complete redesign. The power train being the biggest change.
Also, the Toyota dealer thats attached had a new Avalon limited in, 38k plus 2k for added dealer profit. So you can get a 05 300 for 37k, an es330 for 33k or a toyota avalon for 40k..hmm
DL
On that '05 300 ,I see the invoice is more like $35,100 and there is 1k cash to dealer now.So they werent offering me any favors.
DL
Back in Japan, Toyota is currently offering huge incentives to clear all Aristo sedan (the GS, you called them right?) to prepare for the launch of the new GS sedan and I am very surprised as to why your dealer haven’t offer any incentive for the may-be they haven’t receive orders from Japan yet. So I do suggest you should wait a couple of weeks, which hopefully by then, they receive the orders coming from Japan and start discounting them. Typically, they should offer discount from around 3.5 upwards to 5 million yen (approx 3500-5000 US dollars) for each car. Of course the amount of discount would varied from country to country, but I do suggest you to take a try and bargain at the discount range I just mentioned if you are seriously the older Aristo sedan.
However l would advice if you have the money available, you should buy the new GS (06) than the current model because if you have a chance to ride this sedan next week, you would know (from my own test drive back in Japan) there’s a good improvement in terms of it’s driving dynamics (ie handling, performance) than the older Aristro sedan, which is mainly contribute from it’s new chassis. Material quality around the car are the same as the typical luxury Toyota sedan and have a few toys (gadgets) you can play with around from time to time. Unfortunately, sometimes the seat itself does not fit you very comfortably especially if you have a very wide body size and rear visibility (like the old GS) is not as good as expected especially if you are very tall person. So exclude all these shortcomings in visibility, seat and it’s design, it’s a very good and balanced vehicle and if you demand “pure luxury” while at the same time you demand some performance characteristics in the car, then this would the car that would suit your needs.
Hope this will help with your purchase!
Ken
I apologize any misunderstandings that have occurr
Ken
The Dealer here has aprox 7 '05 300 left. The '06 demo supposed to be here in the week supposedly ,and cars on the ground "pre sold" in a few weeks.
Regards,
DL
M
Will buy from dealer with the best food.