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Lexus GS 300/GS 430

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Comments

  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    How much did the new A6 really add over the previous car? "But those are hardly anything new when you consider the Sienna is equipped with all those option." Im not sure what your point is there. The Land Cruiser has had AWD for a million years, so its old hat? Its an all new platform, a new V6, new interior, new body, adaptive lights, etc etc etc. Its a hell of a lot more "new" than say a Ford Freestar, or any of GM's "crossover sport vans".
  • sortersorter Member Posts: 146
    The difference between GS and the other 530 alike is the market share. While A6, B5 and ME can improve, I think GS needs bigger change. Very similar to the Full size Truck market. But I think Toyota is doing a lot more for the Tundra than for the GS.
    Take the G35 as example, Infiniti didn't improve from its I35 which was a weak seller. To a less extensive but similarly, TL transformed. That is what needs to be done for GS.
    My point is, after 7 years, GS is getting long in the tooth, but the 06 doesn't seems to change that much in the area of interior and exterior design, power train. Hopefully there will be more done to the suspension, handling etc.
    Otherwise, GS will continue be the underdog.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Ah I see what you mean. Yeah the overall "presentation" of the new GS is more evolutionary than revolutionary. I agree that if its got the same floaty, numb handling as last time, its going to fail. I dont think Lexus is going to make that mistake again though.
  • jrock65jrock65 Member Posts: 1,371
    The current GS isn't exactly a failure. For the first few years, it sold about 25,000 to 30,000 per year, a figure that I'm sure Lexus would love to repeat with the 2006 GS. Sure, in the last few years sales have been tanking but this model has had an unusually long 8 year run (1998 to 2005). Most Japanese cars have a 5 year model run.

    From the photos and specs I prefer the M, but I'm sure the 2006 GS will be quite a car as well.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Well, I mean fail as a sports sedan. 90% of GS sales were GS300. It wasnt sporty, or quick. It was never all that nice inside either. Frankly, Im surprised it sold as well as it did.
  • alpha01alpha01 Member Posts: 4,747
    I dont think the GS300 as bad as you perceived it, lexusguy. I do remember the GS300 winning a comparison test or two when it first came out, besting the also redesigned A6 of the time, for example. If I can find the issue of Car and Driver, I'll post the date so you can reference some positive material.

    The issue for the GS line is simply that too much time has passed and the cars, while still quite good in my opinion, are no longer compelling buys in the current, quickly advancing marketplace.

    ~alpha
  • mariner7mariner7 Member Posts: 509
    Current GS is a pretty good car, it just had to do without a major redo for a long time. No model can afford that now.

    I read Nissan Fuga (M35, except with a 2.5 or 3.0 engine option) is all the rage in Japan, selling much better than expected. Toyota is going to speed up the introduction of Crown Mark something or other by several months to meet Fuga head on. Is that Crown the new LS?

    Interesting M35/45 will not be Infiniti in Japan! Will GS be a Lexus there? What is the current GS called there? We know RL is a Honda Legend!
  • maxhonda99maxhonda99 Member Posts: 1,289
    I believe the first car under the Lexus namebrand in Japan will be the 2006 Lexus GS300/430.

    The current GS is called the Toyota Aristo, which comes in many more variations over there. Such as the previous GS was available with the straight 6 with twin-turbo's and AWD.

    The current GS has been around too long, correct. It sold well in it's first 2-3 years. After that, due to styling that got old, and lack of upgrades to the lineup it tanked.

    The Crown is not the next LS. THe crown is smaller than the LS430. I believe the crown shares the same platform as the Lexus GS. The Lexus LS430 has always been sold in Japan under the Toyota Celsior badge.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Its tough to compare Toyota\Lexus models here with JDM models. For every sedan that Toyota chooses to sell in the NA market, its got about 3 more back home that dont make it.
  • carlisimocarlisimo Member Posts: 1,280
    In Japan will it now be the Lexus GS, or the Lexus Aristo? I like Toyota's JDM names, it'd be a shame to see them go.
  • maxhonda99maxhonda99 Member Posts: 1,289
    It will be called the LExus GS300 or GS430.
  • cove148cove148 Member Posts: 117
    Lexusguy,

    Sure you have seen the pics and spec's on the new
    Avalon (avalon forum) Would be interested in your thoughts on it. I got to say, the interior and the 280hp engine is extremely appealing.
    Can you compare to GS300/ES330
    Thanks.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Are they the same very low res b&w shots, or something more substantial? At this point, I really dont know too much about the car. Traditionally, Avalon has always been Toyota's answer to buick, so for them to change it into say, a Maxima fighter would be quite a change of pace, but anything is possible. It will be interesting to see if torque steer is a problem. Both Nissan and Acura have run into that, but perhaps with an automatic as the only transmition, Toyota will be able to keep all those ponies under control.

    The thought process behind giving Avalon more displacement and more power than either ES330 or GS300 still eludes me. My guess is that Camry and ES will get the 3.5L motor for their '07 redesign. As for GS300, I know they dont want it to have too much power, or it would step on GS430's toes. Maybe GS will use the 3.0L motor until Lexus introduces a new V8? I dont know.

    Edit: Ok I just saw the interior shot, gotta say very impressed. Its the best Toyota interior in history.
  • mariner7mariner7 Member Posts: 509
    Toy apparently is giving Lexus different engines as well as platforms, I6 for Lexus & V6 for Toy. Nissan can't do that for two reasons. It's a much smaller company than Toy, with less resources. And Lexus's planning to sell a lot more cars than Infiniti.

    If anyone can post a pic of Crown, the Fuga fighter, we'd appreciate it. As a Nissan fan, I'm sure glad Fuga name is not exported. It sounds like some sort of sushi.

    "Toyota officials confirmed a report in the Financial Times that the company will spend around $650 million over the next three years to bolster the Lexus brand in Europe."

    An article on Lexus in Europe. Toy does have money to burn. It apparently spent the most money on the last F1 campaign, more than Ferrarri or MB.

    http://www.detnews.com/2004/insiders/0411/23/C01-13387.htm
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    "Toy apparently is giving Lexus different engines as well as platforms, I6 for Lexus & V6 for Toy."

    That is incorrect. While horsepower generally isnt the same between Toyota and Lexus models, Camry, Avalon, ES, and RX have always and all indictations seem to be that they will continue to share engines. The only Lexus cars using different V6s than any Toyota models are IS and GS, and this is only because Supra was killed in 1998. Lexus is retiring the aging Inline 6. There will not be an inline replacement. IS and GS are going to use Vs. A new 3.0L direct injection V6 goes into GS300. The last info I heard about IS is that it will use Avalon's new 3.5L V6. My guess, at least for now, about Lexus' engine plans, is that RX, ES, and Camry will most likely continue to use the "old" 3.3L engine until their redesigns. I am thinking that perhaps for the '07 model year when the new Camry and ES hit, they will get the GS300's 3.0L motor, and Lexus may introduce a bigger V8, perhaps a 4.5 or maybe a 5.0, and bump GS300 up to GS350. It is also possible that instead of increasing displacement, Lexus could add hybrid power and call it the GS500h or something like that.
  • speedluxspeedlux Member Posts: 23
    lexusguy,
     "I am thinking that perhaps for the '07 model year when the new Camry and ES hit, they will get the GS300's 3.0L motor"

       ES, and Camry won't get new engine, because it will be hybrid for 2006. That is why Toyota doesn't mind Avalon have more hp than ES, and GS. Lexus been offically announced to have hybrid for all models.
    As far as people are guessing how new GS will handling. Well, new GS is wider, lower, and longer wheel base, then it will handling better than current GS, no doubt about it.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    "ES, and Camry won't get new engine, because it will be hybrid for 2006."

    But why would Toyota keep an old engine around though, when they have just released newer, more powerful, more advanced and efficient powerplants? The 3.3L is a bored out version of the old 3.0L, thats been around since the early 90s. It makes no sense to keep it in production as a 3rd V6. Toyota isnt GM.
  • alpha01alpha01 Member Posts: 4,747
    that the next ES and Camry will get the GS's 3.0L V6. No RWD Lexus/Toyota has shared and unmodified engine/transmission with a FWD Lexus/Toyota. Ever.

    Of course, the Avalon's 3.5L is a thoroughly reengineered version of the 4Runner/Tacoma 4.0L, with a shorter stroker and lower friction, high rev design, so anything is possible.

    ~alpha
  • boomsamaboomsama Member Posts: 362
    If thats the case, how will the IS use the new 3.5L V6 from the avalon (since the avalon is FWD and IS is RWD)?
  • alpha01alpha01 Member Posts: 4,747
    never said the IS would get the Avalon's 3.5L engine, nor has that been confirmed by any Toyota source, to my knowledge.

    It could happen, no doubt, I think its most likely to happen in an AWD hybrid edition if it happens at all.

    My previous post was just to say that I dont think the Camry and ES will get the GS 3.0L V6. Thats not an engine thats scheduled to be produced in Kentucky, as far as I know...

    ~alpha
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    And yet both cars will have 3.5L V6s, yes? It would be rediculous for Toyota to make two different V6s of identical displacement and power, one for FWD, and one for RWD. I know that Toyota has always used a V for FWD and an IL for RWD in the past, but it doesnt mean its going to stay that way. The IL is going away. The 3.3L is essentially a very old engine, and Toyota has two brand new V6s. One way for Toyota to save money is to simply adapt the engine to be able to handle either a FWD or RWD application. Have ALL their 6 powered cars use the 3.0L, with the 3.5L being reserved for the top spots.
  • alpha01alpha01 Member Posts: 4,747
    Both of which cars will have a 3.5L?

    In any case, I dont think its as cut and dry as you see it. Theres a lot of production and manufacturing issues that you are overlooking, and I'm sure that Toyota has a great deal more expertise in figuring out how to engineer which vehicles at the best cost/volume/profit level. As far as I know, there are no plans for TMMK to produce the new 3.0L V6. Since most of the North American sold Camrys are sourced from TMMK, with a relatively small amount coming from Japan, it might not make economic sense to use the 3.0L in the Camry. Thats all Im saying.

    Right now everything is very speculative, but I don't see the FWD/AWD Camry and ES platform sharing a powerplant with the RWD/AWD GS platform. I don't disagree that the 3.3L will go away, but I dont think its going away soon... it powers too many vehicles.

    Question: How do we know that the next IS will have a 3.5L engine? All I've read is that there will be a hybrid power model called the IS350GT. That doesnt mean its going to be a 3.5L. The RX400h doesnt have a 4.0L engine, correct?

    ~alpha
  • carnaughtcarnaught Member Posts: 3,498
    at the auto show and although it looks better in person, I was disappointed, The car is super bulbous looking (like an upscale Maxima) and the interior in black was not up to usual Lexus standards IMHO. Contrast with the wood color and black was missing and the door panels appeared stark if not less than luxurious.

    (BTW, I'm a Lexus-phile having owned six of them.)
  • lexi4lifelexi4life Member Posts: 181
    Why wouldn't all Toyota/Lexus cars all share the 3.0 (for base models) and the 3.5 (for upscale models)? Why wouldn't they be able to do that, can you tell me? If Nissan can with its 3.5, (G35, FX35 VS Altima, Maxima, Quest, Murano)I don't see why Toyota wouldn't be able to imitate Nissan and adapt these 2 brand new V6 to both FDW and RWD cars and FWD based AWD cars (RX, Highlander, Sienna). That'd be way more logical than putting the most powerful engine (3.5) in the cheapest cars and the less powerful engine (3.0) in the most expensive cars.
  • alpha01alpha01 Member Posts: 4,747
    Toyota does not have to mimic Nissan's engine strategy to be successful. Simply because that works for Nissan, does not necessarily imply it will, or should, be done by Toyota.

    I'm not saying its not going to happen, or that it can't, Im just saying that it would be a big departure from the past for the Camry platform vehicles to share engines with upscale Lexus models.

    "That'd be way more logical than putting the most powerful engine (3.5) in the cheapest cars and the less powerful engine (3.0) in the most expensive cars."

    Its not that illogical if the 3.5L is the uplevel engine for cars like the Camry and standard on heavier FWD-biased AWD vehicles such as the RX, and the 3.0L is the lower tier engine for the GS, for example.

    ~alpha
  • jrock65jrock65 Member Posts: 1,371
    Isn't the 280hp 3.5L engine in the next Avalon the same basic engine as the 245hp 3.0L engine in the 2006 GS300, but with bore strokes adjusted so as to increase displacement?

    I do have a feeling that the 3.3L will go away after a few years.

    Nissan does use that VQ engine all over the place to cut cost.

    3.5L:
    Altima
    Maxima
    350Z
    Murano
    Quest
    G35 Sedan/Coupe
    M35
    FX35

    4.0L:
    Pathfinder
    Xterra
    Frontier

    Maybe Toyota is using the same approach with this new V6 engine. 3.5L for the large cars/SUV/trucks, and the 3.0L for the mid-size vehicles.
  • alpha01alpha01 Member Posts: 4,747
    "Isn't the 280hp 3.5L engine in the next Avalon the same basic engine as the 245hp 3.0L engine in the 2006 GS300, but with bore strokes adjusted so as to increase displacement?"

    Thats completely incorrect. The 3.5L in the Avalon is actually a thoroughly reworked, short stroke, high rev derivative of the 4.0L in the 4Runner/Tacoma/Tundra. Crazy, eh?

    ~alpha
  • cove148cove148 Member Posts: 117
    Alpha,

    It appears Toyota has turned it's marketing kind of upside down. The new Avalon coming out in Feb. looks like a real competitor to the GS300 and in many ways the better car especially with the bigger engine and great looking interior. Your thoughts?
  • alpha01alpha01 Member Posts: 4,747
    Avalon: FWD, large midsize/full size sedan, mainstream market, luxury-biased
    GS series- RWD or AWD, midsize sedan, premium label, emphasis on sport (allegedly increased with new generation, but definitely even the current generation, compared to the Avalon).

    It seems to me that overlap will be primarily in price and feature content. Isnt it great to be a consumer? So much choice!

    ~alpha
  • jrock65jrock65 Member Posts: 1,371
    Actually, I think that the Avalon and the ES330 will be cross-shopped a lot. With the death of the I35, the ES is the only import FWD lux-boat cruiser. With the Avalon moving up in price, features, and luxury, it's certainly encroaching in ES territory.

    ---

    So what other car is gonna use the 3.0L in the GS300?
  • cove148cove148 Member Posts: 117
    Check the spec's on the new avalon. Only 2/10" shorter than LS. With all the bells and whistles of the LS. Understand it will be a new platform and not share the Camry's. It looks like it will compete with the LS more than the ES. I think it will be priced higher than the ES.
    Think Toyota wants to have it's leader in the Luxury field and not depend upon Lexus to fill this market segment alone.
  • alpha01alpha01 Member Posts: 4,747
    The next generation Avalon is on the current generation Camry platform. The outgoing Avalon model is on the old (92-01) Camry platform. So its a new platform for the Avalon, but its still shared with the Camry.

    ~alpha
  • jrock65jrock65 Member Posts: 1,371
    I highly doubt it'll be cross-shopped with the LS much. The LS is $25,000 more expensive, more luxurious, V8, more features, etc. Interior room is not the sole determinant of a car's class.
  • boomsamaboomsama Member Posts: 362
    Don't forget the LS is also RWD and the Avalon is FWD.

    Apparently the GS430 will only be $2000USD more than the GS300 in australia. Would it be worth going for the GS430?
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    short answer: yes. long answer: yes.
  • bartalk2bartalk2 Member Posts: 326
    How do you know the price difference between the forthcoming GS300 and 430 will be only $2,000? On the current models it's nearly $9,000.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    boomsama is from Australia. Apparently the GS300 must cost a lot more there.
  • boomsamaboomsama Member Posts: 362
    Well this isn't a officially released price, but a estimated price by a respected Australian Motor website. The GS430 will probably be a bargain in Australia compared to the other european V8 marques.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    325 vs. 228ft.lbs of torque. You can figure that much twist will shave at least 1.5sec off the 0-60 from GS300 to GS430.
  • rwoodsrwoods Member Posts: 129
    My Lexus GS430 is not floaty or numb. It is precise, elegant, comfortable, wickedly quick and understated. And $10,000 less than comparable A6, MB or BMWs. The fact that there aren't many on the road only adds to the allure for me. (Oh and reliable)
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    I didnt mean that the GS430 is a numb, floaty car. Its no Buick Regal. But compared to say a 540iA with sport package...
  • sortersorter Member Posts: 146
    Car down 21% this month?
    Back to the GS, I think if price is to compared with BMW 530, GS300 will be much cheaper with option considered.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    I noticed that as well. Since E is down a bit as well, I think most of those sales went to A6 and RL.
  • sortersorter Member Posts: 146
    I can't find breakdown into 3, 5 and 7. Of course, a breakdown of IS and GS will be even more depressing. all the better news are in SUVs.

    European automakers posted mixed results. Solid C-Class volumes helped Mercedes join Land Rover, Volvo and Mini in beating their 2003 results, but sales slumped for the BMW brand, as well as for Audi, Porsche, Jaguar and Volkswagen. BMW car sales were down 29% and the 7-Series failed to reach even half of its November 2003 volume.

    Luxury vehicles claimed over 12% of all light vehicle sales in November, their largest share this year. Lexus now has a solid lead in the segment, followed by BMW.
  • alpha01alpha01 Member Posts: 4,747
    Actually, Lexus's flagship (LS430) is having one of its best years in recent memory. The fairly substantial though not major upgrades to the vehicle for 2004 seem to have paid off nicely for Toyota. The ES330 is also still selling strong, entering its 4th year.

    So its not all SUVs, although they indeed did well for Lexus in Nov. I'd expect to see a bit of an increase this year for the GX470, given that it now has enough power and torque to compete with the stronger entries in the class.

    ~alpha
  • steve290steve290 Member Posts: 25
    I currently drive an Acura MDX, but want to switch to a car. I thought I was going to go for an Acura RL, but was extremely disappointed in its interier room coupled with a price north of $50,000. I saw the GS430 at auto show and thought vehicle was stunning. The GS430 was on a turntable with doors closed so I couldn't sit in it. It is visually bigger than 04 model and I was told that cabin would be roomier. 04 is a little too small (3 kids). Does anyone know about interier dimensions vs. 04 model. How will it compare to Infinity new M model in size? Anything else I should look at in mid-40's range?
  • maxhonda99maxhonda99 Member Posts: 1,289
    sorter,

    Here's a link to BMW's Nov-04 Sales Numbers press release:

    http://www.prnewswire.com/cgi-bin/stories.pl?ACCT=wardsauto.story&STORY=/www/story/12-01-2004/0002557916&EDATE=WED+Dec+01+2004,+01:26+PM

    It's best to look at the NOv-04 BMW numbers with grain of salt. Why? The 3-series is due for a redesign, therefore production is probably winding down and sales are slowing because alot of people would rather wait for the new one.
    The 7-series is also due for a nip & tuck for 2005, so sales could be slow due to production change. The Z4 tanking is kinda strange though, it's only in it's second year but sales could be taking a hit because of the new SLK350, which is much improved over the old SLK.

    YTD BMW *Car* sales are only down 7%. Not too bad considering the redesigns coming.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    The new GS is definitely bigger than the old car. I forget the exact dimensions, but I know its got several inches of legroom over RL. Another car to look at would be Infiniti's new M35, which will price very similarly to GS. Those are my two top picks in this radically expanding segment.
  • gbeergbeer Member Posts: 5
    Whats' the latest update as to the availability of the '06 GS?
    My '01 GS300 lease is up in Feb and I'd like to start making plans.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    There's no exact launch date yet, but I think the current target is roughly around april or so, possibly may.
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