Scion tC

ambull · February 2004

Many of the parts are straight from the Toyota bin. The engine is not especially high-tech and is mass-produced to the tune of well over 200,000 per year. That being said, it should perform well in a relatively lightweight car. (Does anyone know its exact weight yet?)

The pictures of the interior I've seen make it look absolutely spartan, although they say the texture is like Japanese parchment. The only thing upscale about it is the panoramic sunroof and the wheels and tires. I will say that at $17K, it seems like a fair deal; its competitors are overpriced.

gee35coupe · February 2004

the price.
The content also has to be considered.

18K is a steal for the amount of stuff included. And even though the engine is mass produced, it is still 2.4 liters. That's a large engine for the price point. Climate control, sattelite radio, 17' wheels, four wheel discs......Puleeze. If you pull back from the microscope and look at the whole car, it's a significant move by Toyota.

moparbad · February 2004

According to the press I've seen the MSRP is to start at under 17K for the TC.

muffin_man · February 2004

Climate control is a nice touch, but the truth is, the basic package is what is going to sell the car. Driving dynamics. The Solara has some nice content, doesn't mean its the sort of coupe I would want to drive.

Without reading a road test, I don't think you can judge. Is it going to be better than the RSX, Cobalt, Si or Tiburon? It's got a lot of tough competition.

Good package, maybe, but I don't see how it is any better than anything else on the market. (before testing)

pzev · February 2004

"The content also has to be considered.

18K is a steal for the amount of stuff included."

If you're open to other brands then the Hyundai Tiburon meets and beats an 18k Scion tC all day long in the price/equipment category.

MSRP: 18,199

Invoice: 16,561

Max out a Tiburon with a sunroof, 360-watt Infinity stereo, leather, and ABS which costs $2448 MSRP and $2222 invoice you now bring your total to..

MSRP: $20,647

Invoice: $18,783

Keep in mind the Hyundai has rebates, a 5/10 year warranty, leather, 6-cyl engine, 360-watt audio system, etc.

The only way a Scion tC at 18k can be a steal is if you MUST have a Toyota/Honda. Compared to some other competitors this is nothing special.

Ambull's quote pretty much sums it all up...

"The only thing upscale about it is the panoramic sunroof and the wheels and tires. I will say that at $17K, it seems like a fair deal; its competitors are overpriced."

alpha01 · February 2004

is widely unloved and sells poorly, because, despite its low price, it isnt a well executed overall package. The shifter is vague, the 2.7L revs slowly and provides poor fuel economy for the segment, resale value is horrendous, the cockpit cramped (though nicely styled and appointed), handling is ponderous compared to the segment, etc, etc, etc.

I'd bet the tC will be just as quick with its 2.4L DOHC as the Tiburon is with its 2.7L V6, will return better fuel economy, offer more room and innovative features, better resale, more distinctive styling, and a better ride/handling tradeoff. If the price of the tC, with similar equipment to the loaded "GT V6" Tib, is $20,500, I dont see how anyone would favor the Hyundai.

~alpha

gee35coupe · February 2004

to Toyota in the mind of the average consumer. Just as the ES300 is marketed as a Lexus and costs as such over the Camry. The Tc is always gonna be on a higher plane that a Hyundai. It's just that way.

Like I said, at $18,000 this Toyota product is a steal compared to the competition. The Toyota name and reputation along with the content place it in a league by itself.

Sure a test drive will seal the deal. But on paper this car looks to be a winner just as the other two Scion products have turned out to be. Again, they only plan to sell 30,000 of the things. Don't plan on discounts.

bamacar · February 2004

18,000 to me sounds to be about right nothing special. Of course there will be no discounting that is the Scion philosophy. So a 18k Scion is equal to a 19500 to 21000 dollar Toyota or Honda. Given the invoice pricing and rebates on those brands, that equals 18k. I can get an Accord LX or Camry for about 17 and add a few extras to get me to 18 (aluminum wheels and other accessories). Yes the Accord stickers for almost 20k, but sticker means nothing compared to what you actually have to pay. I still think the TC looks like an entry level Celica of old.

muffin_man · February 2004

gee35coupe - For $18000, what makes this car any better than an RSX?

alpha01 - More distinctive styling than the Tiburon? The tC is _very_ generic looking, it's nice, but distinctive it is not. The Tiburon is a much more distinctive car.

More innovative features? Such as?

(general) What platform is this car built on?

alpha01 · February 2004

Compared to the RSX, the tC looks to be a couple grand cheaper, and offer better feature content, more room, torquier engines, and a less trendy interior.

Styling is subjective, but I like the fact that the vehicle looks like a coupe but is a more versatile hatchback. The RSX is too "stubby" looking, though I will say the Tiburon is attractive.

Innovative features- the panorama sunroof, the multiadjustable reclining rear seatback, the aforementioned hatchback versatility w/ coupe styling, to name a few.

The tC is a proliferation of the critically acclaimed European Avensis chassis.

I hope this answered some of your questions.
~alpha

muffin_man · February 2004

Well, the TMV on the RSX is $18.2, and I see them from $17,000-$18,000 all the time.

I don't know if I would call any of those features innovative, but they are rare at this price range.

The tC may be a great value and a great car, I'm looking forward to a test drive.

gee35coupe · February 2004

Especially the torquier engine part.

2.4 has it all over the 2.0 in torque.

I'll bet it cruises at a much lower RPM. RSX also doesn't have balance shafts.

muffin_man · February 2004

As far as torque goes, we'll see how the tC is tuned and how much it weighs. As it is now the RSX makes 160hp/141ft-lbs vs. the Camry 157hp/162ft-lbs.

But as we know, horsepower sells cars - just to say that a little extra torque in the tC probably won't be a strong selling point. It wasn't for the 2002 Si over the 2000.

Balance shafts would be a negative in the RSX because it doesn't need them. They are used in the 2.4, because bigger 4 cylinder engines aren't particularly smooth.

gee35coupe · February 2004

The fact that it's there is the point. Just as some people don't want a sunroof or climate control, it's there and it's gonna cost. Again, they only want to sell 30,000 of them. Just like the Acura TSX, they'll do fine at that number.

alpha01 · February 2004

the most powerful iteration of Toyota's 2.4L normally aspirated engine in North America is the RAV4- with 161hp and 165 lb. ft.

Im no engineer, but I can only assume the difference is due to exhaust restrictions? All are rated as ULEV-II in terms of emissions.

Naturally, it would be nicest to see this version in the tC.

~alpha

badjura · February 2004

I can't complain about the power of my Solara with its 2.4 & 157 horses..and it weighs 3130 lbs. The tC is supposed to weigh about 2500 lbs with a stick, so it should have enough get up and go for the average driver. If you have the bucks drop in the TRD supercharger.
And really, if you like the car, who cares whether its 'geared' towards youth or grandpa? If Buick came up with a car that looked (sort of) and went (haha) like a porsche for under 20K, & turned out to be reliable (yeah, its a BIG stretch LOL), wouldn't you get it?

muffin_man · February 2004

gee35 - I don't see it as the clear cut top of the segment as you seem to. I guess that sums up my thoughts.

badjura - Buicks are actually among the most reliable cars out there. However, they definitely don't look like Porsches.

pzev · February 2004

Just go to scion.com and download the brochure and you can get a lot of info that way.

160 hp @ 6,000rpm
163 lb.-ft. @ 4,200rpm

Turning Circle- TBD (I'm interested in what this will turn out being, the Avensis's is I think 37.4 feet)

Curb Weight- 2925 lbs. (Manual)

Headroom- unknown (interested in this as well)

No mention anywhere of side air bags being available. This is kind of sad on a modern car. Come on Toyota, you can do better than that. Sure sign of cost-cutting right there.

Fuel Mileage Estimates- 22/29 (Manual)

Also another forum on the main page (won't mention forum since it's against the rules) says it will be priced around $19,000. I don't believe this will happen but this is way too high.

badjura · February 2004

muffin_man - I guess you could say Buicks are reliable, but only if you are talking domestic. Only the Regal has been average or a bit better for any length of time. But please, lets not compare Buick and Toyota when talking reliablity...

muffin_man · February 2004

badjura - depends if you believe JD Power or not, but I don't want to get into this discussion again.

More torque than the RSX, significantly worse gas mileage. Heavier.

Looks like a nice car, we'll see about class leading. I _can't_ stop writing that.

ateixeira · February 2004

RSX is a hatch, right? tC is a coupe. That alone is an advantage in the eyes of some.

-juice

alpha01 · February 2004

tC is a hatchback, that deceptively looks like a coupe.

I dont know if I trust those specs on the scion.com website. The 3200lb AWD RAV4 gets 22/27 on the EPA cycle.

Why is $19,000 too high for this vehicle? Price a RSX, Celica, Eclipse etc. lately? Across the compact segment, this is a competitive price except for the Koreans.

~alpha

pzev · February 2004

"Why is $19,000 too high for this vehicle? Price a RSX, Celica, Eclipse etc. lately? Across the compact segment, this is a competitive price except for the Koreans."

I guess everyone's definition of value is different. It's obvious you and gee35 really like this car's overall package. For someone who doesn't see it as a big deal to begin with, $19k with no way to lower the price is just too much.

IMO the RSX, Eclipse, and Celica really isn't much of a value. Not that I think they're bad cars, but to me they simply aren't worth it. So it shouldn't be any surprise that someone like me that hates sunroofs and would prefer the ride comfort and cheaper cost to have 16" alloys versus 17" would find a $19k Scion tC to be too high.

Even though it's a 4-door, the Mazda3 seems to be a better value. Once the rebates start being offered, you can easily get a 2.3 Mazda3 for less than 19k. The interior is competitive, the handling/sportiness should be on par with the tC, it can have 17" alloys, sunroof, everything the tC has, and more likely with a cheaper price tag.

Again the only thing that stands out about the tC is the standard 17" alloys and the sunroof. If you plan to put people in the back seat a lot to take advantage of the reclining back seats it's better to get a 4-door. Those seats won't do any good if you throw your back out trying to crawl in the back seat. Even if there's a lot of room back there, if you plan to put people back there rather often then a 2-door isn't a good idea IMO.

alpha01 · February 2004

I completely respect your opinion. Given that you clearly dont prefer two door coupes, I'm not sure why you've taken such an interest on this thread. Its seems as though you are willing to concede that the tC will likely be a good entry, and a better value than others in its peer group, so your reference to the Mazda 3 (while understandable), isnt really relevant, given that I dont think many people cross-shop two door entry sports coupes with compact sedans. I'm sure there are some that may, though.

A Mazda 3 4Door 5M with moonroof, CD changer, ABS, side curtains, and 17-in wheels stickers at $19,105. Since we dont know about pricing yet on the tC yet, we really cant say anything other than it will certainly be in the ballpark, and if they can offer the base tC with most of the aforementioned Mazda 3 options being standard, at $17,000, then pricing will certainly be competitive, even at "NO HAGGLE" MSRP.

~alpha

Kirstie_H · February 2004

It's nearly impossible to make a comparison between 2-door coupes to 4-door sedans, as quite often the intended target market is different. As alpha stated, it's really not likely that a person shopping for a 2-door sports coupe is going to look at a sedan and decide that the 4-door is better. IMO, they've already made the decision about which body style they prefer before they shop.

gambit293 · February 2004

I sorta disagree with you.

IMO, the SCC crowd (young, often wealthy or willing to spend, frequently has few family obligations)tends to waver freely between the number of doors. I think a lot of the SCC crowd would cross-shop between Mazda3, Tc, WRX, Eclipse, Celica, RSX, Golf even though they cross several car classes and several car levels.

Likewise, enthusiasts from the same crowd would probably cross-shop the 350z, G35c, Evo, Sti, RX-8.

There are just so many great models out there right now. Number of doors almost seems trivial, at least to me.

gee35coupe · February 2004

If you are going to throw $20,000 in mods at it.

I say he mini-Lexus look, above average content, and Toyota lineage will make this car a winner.

ateixeira · February 2004

Didn't realize that, saw it up on the turn table but not yet up close.

I think for the SCC shopper, that may be the case (any # of doors, so long as it performs).

-juice

muffin_man · February 2004

I agree, the car _is_ going to be a winner. Whether it's the best in class or not... see above, ad nauseum, etc.

pzev · February 2004

Actually I do like 2-door coupes. But I won't buy one unless the styling is really good, that's kind of the point when buying a less practical 2-door. For example I'm just as likely to buy a 2-door Civic vs. a 4-door because I like the 2-door's styling better. I wouldn't haul people in the backseat very often so I'm open to a 2-door.

Just to be straight forward about this, the whole reason I'm not liking the tC for the most part is the sunroof. Usually sunroof cars don't have enough headroom for me. I noticed Edmunds has a little page up with stats on the tC and they list headroom at 37.6 inches, which I doubt will be enough for me. Plus since it's essentially 2 holes in the roof instead of one I would suspect this adds quite a bit to the price, even though being standard helps them keep the cost of it down.

Since pricing isn't available yet I can't really say, but over 18k and to me at least it just seems too expensive. But that's because I'm not all that thrilled with the car. At the same time though I do like the car enough and find it interesting enough to keep up with info on it. Once it's released and I'm able to see it in person I may lose interest and not care anymore, but for now I do think it's a nice car that I would consider owning (if there was no sunroof) and the price was reasonable.

pzev · February 2004

By the way, the tC is in the browse by vehicles menu, and has been for awhile, but there's no topic for the tC listed under it. Can a mod move this topic so when you go to the tC category that it'll bring this topic up? Thanks!

ambull · February 2004

I think the price will be reasonable. Car & Driver says under $17K and Autombile mag says "about" or "around $17K. Automobile also said the styling is a derivative of Audi and BMW, but to me, that's a good thing.
But it's gonna have a sunroof, a dual one at that! I'd like the option of not having it too, but I don't think they'll make it that way.
It'll be an interesting car to see. I'm interested in it because of the engine and the sportier nature compared to Camry, but I may go with the Mazda 3 instead. I'm about to be an empty-nester, so I don't need 4 doors much, but insurance is probably cheaper for a 4-door.

irnmdn · February 2004

Mazda3 has a unrefined and rough engine compared to the Camry based one on tC. I prefer the versatility of a hatch over two additional rear door of a sedan. Madzda3 5-door lookes too minivanish to me (a cross between Dodge Caravan and PT Cruiser)

ateixeira · February 2004

I think the Mazda3 looks more like a small Murano.

Is that 2.3l Ford-derived?

-juice

pzev · February 2004

"Is that 2.3l Ford-derived?"

I think Ford supplied the block but the rest was Mazda design. What I do know is this is Ford's 4-cyl for the future. The Focus will be using it and dropping the old engines it was using. If there is a problem with it I think Ford would move quick to solve the problem since it'll be used in so many of their cars across the world.

ateixeira · February 2004

Is that the same PZEV engine from the current Focus? They just put that in there.

Autoweek gave the engine good reviews.

-juice

alpha01 · February 2004

Was excellent when I recently test drove a Focus ZX5. Responsive, sounded strong, not whiny, and offered decent if not Honda/Toyota-like EPA figures.

Too bad the first one I wanted to test drive wouldnt start- which certainly embarrassed the salesman!

~alpha

fdanna · February 2004

Just to chime in about 2.3 pzev in the Focus, it's impressive. I have the 2.0L Zetec and it's much rougher and less powerful. Upon taking my Focus in for the bazillionth time, the rental focus I got was a pzev. The pzev hums along like the 1.8L they use in the Corolla and is very responsive.... I couldn't believe how smooth and quiet it was.

mooker · February 2004

Hello. Im actually in the market for a new car, and saw this beauty. I personally like the minimalistic look of this car compared to any car in its range. The interior is laid out perfectly and has a nice, extremely modern look, unlike the tiburon. The tiburons interior is way dated and i dont know if i would ever consider buying an hyundai considering i havent heard many good things about them. Both of my parents own toyotas and are going great. my mom had a 1993 previa van,yes the egg shaped van, and it had 200k miles on it before they traded it for a camry. Seems like i good deal to me, but i will not buy unless it drops below 18k. The new civic looks pretty tempting also ;p.

1davao · February 2004

Some similarity to tC scion but looks like our
design is bare bones.

http://www.toyota-europe.com/showroom/avensis/gallery.html

1davao

kenshin · February 2004

Does anyone know if the interior dimension specs on Edmunds are genuine, seeing as how no other websites (including Scion) have yet to release such info?

I'm just curious about the front head room (only 37.6 in. !!!) cuz if that's true, then my 6'2 frame most likely wouldn't be able to fit comfortably inside...

jsvh · February 2004

I am 6'3 and also interested in the tC. Right now I have a '93 Camry which has front head room of 38.4 in. I have never had a problem with headroom after I got my seat adjusted correctly. I think we will have to wait to actually sit in the car before we can make a judgment.

Kirstie_H · February 2004

Don't know about the tC, but the unusual Xb has been recommended several times in our "Cars for tall drivers" discussion.

spyd · March 2004

Do you guys think it's worth waiting for the supercharger to be in stock before purchasing a tC?

muffin_man · March 2004

Only if you need to factor it into your car payments.

I actually think it is fun to drive a car for a while stock so that when you fix it up, you really appreciate the difference.

jeigh1194 · March 2004

I'm pretty stoked about this car. Before, I was pretty set on getting the 2005 Chevy Cobalt SS when it comes out.
But then I saw this Scion Tc. I love the interior too. Very clean and well flowing design. Whereas the Chevy looks like more of the same. The Cobalt's interior is nice but it just looks...blah. You know? And I have a GM Card too.
Considering the parent company is Toyota, I can't go wrong.
I wanted to get the supercharger version myself but it most likely will require Premium gas. Then the insurance to top it off. Ask yourself, will it be worth it when you're probably sitting in traffic about 60% of the time?
I'd rather save money for a nice motorcycle.

muffin_man · March 2004

I think it depends on what you want in the car. The Cobalt SS is most likely going to be much faster than the tC with the Supercharger, and will probably cost about the same.

The tC is going to be a great car, but FI or not, it's not really going to comepte with the Cobalt SS (in my mind).

mbukukanyau · March 2004

http://motortrend.com/features/news/112_news64/

Here is what Honda has in store for you...

If Lutz is to be taken seriously, they are going for the crown with Cobalt SS. Expect some serious action on this car, Eager young lads will be delighted to swing this thing...

andys120 · March 2004

It's not like GM hasn't had millions of recalls,
many for things a lot more serious than low beams going out.

gee35coupe · March 2004

Scion tC

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