Scion tC

alpha01 · January 2004

The economy (market/portfolio wise) is in better shape than in many recent years. Compared to competing products, the tC will undercut, if priced at $18,000 with all the standard features (optional on other cars) by thousands. I'm not just talking higher echelon cars, I'm also talking cars like they Hyundai Tiburon GT V6, Nissan Sentra SE-R Spec V, etc. Even at $18,000, the tC would barely be more expensive than a Civic EX coupe.

~alpha

pzev · January 2004

I guess I'm a bit biased because the two major standard equipment included with the Scion, the panorama sunroof and 17-inch alloys, I don't care about. The only other thing this car really has is the better sound system but beyond that the standard equipment is pretty typical of other cars.

Also there's no sign of side airbags being standard, and I'm curious if it's even an option. That matters much more to me than the sunroof and I would prefer 16-inch alloys versus 17-inch. Also the car is going to be about 3,000 pounds so not sure how fast it'll be.

Add in the cost of 17-inch tires which are more expensive to replace versus 16-inch, higher insurance for coupes, and the possibility of the car being a hot item for thieves (if the sound system is any good it may prove to be a popular item for thieves) then I just can't see myself getting this car.

This is just me personally though. It just forces a lot of stuff I don't want, and doesn't have things I do want. I don't like Hondas for this reason as well, it's either take it or leave it.

gee35coupe · January 2004

It takes the difficulty out of finding the car that you want. You choose the color and drive away. With all that content, a sub $20k price, and Toyota quality, the car is a steal. Even if 18 year olds can't afford it, there are a lot of older folk looking for a car like this. For us this car is almost free.

pzev · January 2004

"With all that content, a sub $20k price, and Toyota quality, the car is a steal. Even if 18 year olds can't afford it, there are a lot of older folk looking for a car like this. For us this car is almost free."

Which begs the question, are more older people going to buy this car than the younger crowd and destroy the point of what Scion is about?

They go to the trouble of making the Scion brand to seperate itself from Toyota to be more youth-oriented, but then you see 30+ year olds driving around in the tC. This could take effect on the brand as a whole.

They should cheapen down the price and cut out some of the content so the person can spend their money elsewhere like on 18" wheels or the supercharger or whatever. The supercharger is going to be dealer-installed so they have to pay for labor costs as well and it's only going to make around 200hp. I think I heard it'll end up costing 3k-4k, but no confirmation yet.

For that price they could have made a coupe version of the MR2 with RWD. Have the coupe with at least a bit of luggage space, drop in the Celica engine and you might have a car that the youth would crave for. It'll be too expensive but not sure the tC is a car they'll be craving for.

In my opinion the tC is a conservative attempt at winning the youth crowd but at the same time guaranteeing sucess. This car is more about features and equipment for the price, and bland styling to appeal to as many people as possible, including the 30+ year olds.

This seems like a completely different story from the xB, which is cheaper and at least while the "coolness" factor is there, is getting the kids in the showroom.

The Echo and Corolla are too blobby to stir any excitement, and dropping the Celica engine in the Corolla just doesn't make much sense. They need to do like Honda and at least have a coupe version of the Corolla.

Now Wards auto is reporting after talking to a guy from Toyota USA that the Supra isn't coming to compete with the 350Z, RX-8, etc. The Celica looks as if it'll be dropped altogether, the MR2 will be dropped, so what do you have left? A souped up Corolla and the Camry Solara?

This is why Honda even has the S2000 and NSX. I'm sure these cars aren't exactly huge profit makers for them, especially in the limited numbers they're sold, but people talk about these cars, this is something the youth can crave for.

The tC may end up appealing to the older crowd looking for a good deal rather than the youth crowd that's looking for something cool and with power. Of course this is speculation at this point.

pzev · January 2004

Forgot to mention the article says they're going to make the FJ Cruiser concept, but no Supra. This is basically a small SUV on a truck platform. Just what Toyota needs, yet another SUV.

alpha01 · January 2004

My opinion is that you're pretty far off. Speaking from my personal situation, once I start working full time, I WILL be in a position to buy a $20,000 sporty-type car. I dont need rip-roaring V8 power, just enough to facilitate some smiles, and attack some back roads. I'm 22, and a Scion tC- especially a supercharged model- might be just the ticket for me-interesting shape, strong engine, available manual transmission, Toyota reputation for dependability, no-haggle/ no hassle sales experience, good price/value/features equation, room for 3 friends and luggage.....

Comparing a $20K Scion tC (supercharged) to a RSX Type S, a Celica GT-S, an Eclipse GT-S... its going to be 4 to 5 grand cheaper. Against similarly priced vehicles like the Tiburon GT V6, Corolla XRS, Sentra SE-Spec V, Civic Si... its going to have more power and torque, a more unique image, more interesting interior....

I feel this car is going to be a winner.
~alpha

andys120 · January 2004

but not a small one to compete with the Wrangler and Defender. A new FJ40 roughly the size and off-road capability of the original would be way cool and I'm not even a truck lover.

ateixeira · January 2004

I think this will appeal to first-time car buyers, sure. Scion has been successful so far, and this is its most conventional car by far.

-juice

orionzygarian · January 2004

This is an excellent car: finally, Toyota is comming out with something fast! Sorry guys, the newer Celica doesnt count, although this wont render the Celica dead: they'd had it since the beginning I believe. A TRD supercharger on the Camry engine is a great place to start for younger, first time buyers. It'll be under $20k, yes, but how much? We wont know, but it'll obviously be worth it for the quality and overall feel for these. Has anyone been inside an xA or xB? Incredibly roomy and comfortable. If I could, I'd deffinetly buy one of these.

Earlier I saw someone mention the Supra. I highly doubt there will be another one: all the ones you people claim to have seen are just artist renderings. Toyota said so themselves: "Only 2% of the people in the market are looking for a sports car." As much as I'd love it's return (I'm a Supra fanboy myself) I actually hope it doesnt. It's already perfect: anything more might accidentally ruin it, and even if it was released, it'd be an almost overpriced Lexus. What they SHOULD do is take the old body, modify it just a LITTLE bit, get a bit smaller chassis, a much weaker engine, and sell it as a Scion. The sales will skyrocket for Toyota, and I dont know if any of you have noticed, but Toyota is the 2nd largest car company: it recently beat out Ford. I believe they still make the infamous 2JZ-GTE engine (the one in the oh-so-popular Toyota Supra) so you can buy them new, although they stopped the Supra production in Japan in 2001, so who knows. The Supra's price nowadays is still a steady $20k, so Toyota definetly did something right.

gee35coupe · January 2004

Toyota is looking for younger buyers. But they also are looking for buyers with money. This car looks like a $25000 car for $19000. I think it's a steal. If they make them all loaded the 18 year olds will just have to wait for a used ones.

But then again, all these 18 year olds with GS-R Turbos and fully tricked out new Civics and other imports show that there is SOME money around the youth of America. I don't think Scion is gonna have too much problem meeting sales goals.

muffin_man · January 2004

"This car looks like a $25000 car for $19000."

That's a good one.

gee35coupe · January 2004

I don't know if that was being sarcastic. But if you'd read the Mazda6 vs. TSX room people have darn near gone crazy saying the Mazda6 is "better" than the TSX because they are cheaper.

In my opinion I think the Tc's combination of features and performance would sell quite nicely for $25,000. Maybe the savings is coming from making them all the same spec.

pzev · January 2004

I have to say though the $18k price seems a little low. I would expect more along the lines of $18.5k or a little more. A base Acura RSX has an invoice of $18,260. And unless someone can say otherwise, I would assume this car is being built in Japan or the UK where the Avensis's are built. That will add a little to the base price versus being built in NA.

Add in destination charge and you're potentially topping out over 19k. Also Toyota would be shooting themselves in the foot by offering this car right at 18k or lower. The Camry and most of their other cars will look like total rip-offs if they can offer a car with this kind of equipment at that price. The interior looks much nicer than the Celica, MR2, Camry, etc. and then they offer it at a low price with the really nice interior? Is Toyota this crazy? I don't think so.

Also if you look on a lot of boards people are saying things like if this car comes in at 16k or 17k it'll be an awesome deal, etc. Scion has already made the image of their cars being affordable, but more than likely they'll be in for a rude awakening when the actual price is revealed. Under 18k? Very unlikely.

And one of the points I'm trying to make is their target audience wants to mod their cars. Look at the xB. You'll see a lot have been modded. Stuff like that costs money. I never understood buying a cheap car then throwing a ton of money into it but the younger crowd wants to be unique and original. At 19k that more than likely leaves them with little, if any money to change the wheels, add a body kit, etc.

I think that's why the car was left so bland, it can be customized more easily. Also the stereo in the tC, even though it's above average I'm sure for this price class, these same people will want to customize that as well. Also having stock wheels is too boring, they'll want different wheels to be unique.

As I said it seems they're going after a different audience now, which makes me wonder what's the point of Scion. They should have badged it as a Toyota and be done with it. Do they want Toyota to become as boring as Buick?

gee35coupe · January 2004

Atlanta. I don't think they'll be quite out of money for modding. There are a lot of rich parents out there.

pzev · January 2004

"Speaking from my personal situation, once I start working full time, I WILL be in a position to buy a $20,000 sporty-type car."

What I'm getting at though is I thought Scion was going to be about affordable cars that also appeal to the 18-25 crowd. Toyota wants to improve their image with this age group so in the future these same people will buy more expensive Toyotas and Lexus's from them, at least I would assume.

This car however I think will be a big success with the educated people with decent jobs in the 20-35 group. son in that sense, yes they're attracting a younger customer base.

The problem is I was fooled by what Scion was suppose to be about. I thought it was about offering "hip" "cool" cars that 18 year olds would want and could possibly afford. Then Toyota can make more money on the back-end by offering lots of dealer-installed mods. Raising the price level to 19k and above seems too expensive. And with the no-haggle pricing there's no way to deal on this price.

Don't you think it seems like they're going after a different customer base with this car versus the xA and xB?

Either the car needs to be affordable (and I may be wrong on this and maybe most of these younger people can afford a 19k car) or it needs to have them drooling over it like a SRT-4 and Evo can. With 160hp and bland looks, seems like it's not enough to have them drooling over it like the other cars can.

pzev · January 2004

I was going to mention that in another post. I have yet to see a modded RSX, and I've seen a few slightly modded Celicas but nothing extreme. Seems like the Celica is old news and isn't doing too well. Also the article I mentioned before said the Matrix didn't seem to have gotten the job done by attracting the young crowd.

Toyota can't seem to get it right. But if the numbers I saw earlier about only 30,000 being made is true then there will be plenty of kids with rich parents to sell all those. The question is will the tC help Toyota's image in the long run or will it be old news in a few years.

I think the SRT-4 is helping Dodge a lot. I think the WRX and Evo is helping Subaru and Mitsubishi a lot. I think the S2000 has helped Honda a lot. Will the tC be a car everyone wants to talk about and help Toyota/Scion's image? That remains to be seen.

gee35coupe · January 2004

The RSX's are coming out with full body kits and Turbos. I saw one just Friday looked like a space-mobile. If you'd look at the larger cities where the Scion dealerships wil be located, they know the market they are shooting for.

Check out the Scion site. They are putting a lot of money in Tuner parties and Rave type parties. I used to hang out at raves, no lack of rich kids there.

You can't really market a car to 18 year olds anyway. They have NO credit. I think the most rational demographic to go for is the 20-25 YO. This car will be a dead on hit with them.

The SR-T, EVO, and to a lesser extent the WR-X are limited edition models. They are all strippo compared to the Tc. The SR-T doesn't even have power rear windows. They may be great halo cars but after you get past the drivetrains, there's really nothing else there. I know the Evo hasn't helped any other Mitsu models get off the ground.

Scion already has had great success while oly selling on the west coast. The addition of the Tc along with nationwide exposure is gonna take em to the next level.

alpha01 · January 2004

I completely agree with gee35coupe on this issue. Billy, I respect your opinions and understand your points, but I'm not sure they are very valid. Your claims would seem to indicate that you have great insight into the Gen Y demographic- but do you really? Also, how is it that you define the term "modded"? There are indeed varying degrees, and the mods you see or dont, for example, on the RSX may be visible to an observer, OR NOT- in the case they are modded mechanically and in the interior.

With respect to your assertion that Toyota "can't seem to get it right", I'll concede somewhat on that point. I think the ECHO and Matrix suck. I hate them, as a Toyo fan, wish they never came to market. However, the Celica, for its intended purpose, has served very well. This market almost always experiences a precipitous drop in vehicle sales from model year to model year of the same EXACT model after that car's first year of redesign. Check the stats- happened to the Celica, RSX, Eclipse. The Celica, IMO, is getting somewhat stale, but its in its 5th MY, so theres not much expectation otherwise. Its still a different looking, and awesome handling car.

I dont find the Scion tC to have "bland" styling, and I'm in the demographic slice Toyota is after. Your statements about price, also, are without warrant. I've seen on many websites, including Car and Driver and here on edmunds.com, that Scion is hoping to keep the base car in the $17,000 range, so I'm not really sure how you can say "Scion has already made the image of their cars being affordable, but more than likely they'll be in for a rude awakening when the actual price is revealed. Under 18k? Very unlikely."

Finally, I think the interior is STYLED far more interestingly than the Camry, but the Camry has a VERY high quality interior, and I dont think the tC will surpass it, or the Solara in terms of this. The Celica has an excellent cockpit with great instrumentation.

I think Toyota WILL get 18-25 year olds in the showroom with this vehicle. Even if they draw 35 year olds in... does it matter? the more sales the merrier, and positively impacting the bottom line is what Toyota is really after.

~alpha

gambit293 · January 2004

I agree with a lot of the stuff pzev said, though I'm still confused about what you all are arguing about. I'm starting to repeat myself, but I still think it's a huge mistake for Toyota to totally abandon any and all of its performance aspirations with the assumption that Scion can carry the load. To me, it feels like Toyota is becoming the GM of Japan. Just make boxes with wheels for the bottom line. A Toyota with no celica, MR2, supra might lead me to abandom them (toyota, scion, lexus) altogether.

And in defense of the sport compact crowd, many of them are a bit older than you might think. Plenty are in their mid to late 20s and as yuppies have enough money to support their hobby. As for the ones who DON'T have the money, it's pretty common that many of them live paycheck by paycheck, putting more into their cars than rent, food, etc. To my experience, not that many of the modded scc crowd consists of spoiled brats whose parents pay for their mods.

alpha01 · January 2004

"A Toyota with no celica, MR2, supra might lead me to abandom them (toyota, scion, lexus) altogether."

Please, somebody, show me any shred of evidence to confirm that Toyota is abandoning the sporting market altogether, or leaving the sporting charge to Scion.

Great, thanks.

~alpha

coolguyky7 · January 2004

If you don't plan on the Celica or MR2 as your next car, then what reason do you have to leave Toyota? That's not a reason to "leave" a brand. If this is Toyota's biggest issue, you might have a heart attack when you look at GM or Ford.

muffin_man · January 2004

These days, $6000 barely covers light optioning on a Camry. I don't think $6000 is visible on a car anymore. Certain cars definitely look more expensive than others, but $6000 is rarely apparent.

I don't really see why the tC is going to be such a big deal. It's basically an RSX competitor, but no segment buster.

gambit293 · January 2004

I was just basing my statement on guesses and predictions made by others. However, really we aren't that far off from no performance Toyota vehicles.

Supra: already gone. Rumors of return always seem to float about, but nothing substantial ever pops up.

Celica: There are several sources now (motortrend is one) that say the celica will cease in NA.

So that leaves us with the MR2.

revdrluv · January 2004

Well the Celica does seem to have been ingnored by Toyota for some time now. No real substantial updates to the model, no special editions or anything like that. Basically as everyone else has moved on, the Celica stays the same. The Car mags hardly ever even throw it in the comparison tests anymore. It's no surprise that a car that has been so neglected would get scrapped.

alpha01 · January 2004

"Basically as everyone else has moved on, the Celica stays the same."

The Prelude is dead, the RSX hasnt changed since intro, the Eclipse is ripe for a re-do, and the Tiburon GT V6 never sold, or performed as well in comparos, as Hyundai would have hoped. With respect to those comparos, the last one in Car and Driver, the Celica GT-S came in second to the RSX. Nothing has changed in the segment....

~alpha

ateixeira · January 2004

You're sandwiched between cars that have, though. Look at the WRX, STi, and EVO on one side, then the SVT Focus and Neon SRT-4 on the other. Toss in a little Mini Cooper S.

Even putting the hot engine in the Corolla diminishes the Celica's appeal.

-juice

alpha01 · January 2004

All the aforementioned (aside from some versions of the SVT, and the problem-ridden Mini) are 4 door vehicles though and the STi and EVO are at 30K. I'm talking about two-door sporty coupe/hatchbacks in the under $25,000 bracket. (Additionally, the Focus SVT is discontinued after the Spring production run).

In anycase, I dont think the Celica (or its alleged-though not confirmed-demise) is an argument for Toyota becoming the Japanese GM.

~alpha

muffin_man · January 2004

The MR2 is gone in the next year or two.

gee35coupe · January 2004

But it will increase Toyota strangle hold on the world market by its 30,000 unit increment. That's all they want. Scion is a one price only dealership with all the cars comin in one spec. Any "options" are added by the dealership. They aren't after this segment, they are after GM.

revdrluv · January 2004

I agree the Eclipse is ripe for a redo, but the Tiburon and RSX are still pretty new. (although the Tiburon already needs an update)

I just don't feel like the current Celica went through as much development as it should have. Toyota already had an established spot for that car in the marketplace, but they let it slide. Seems like a waste.

Although these days it seems that you have to have a semi-premium name on your sport compact or sell it for less than 20k. The Scion tC fits that bill quite nicely. I wouldn't be surprised if to see a coupe version of the next IS300 to fill the that semi-premium sporty compact spot.

ateixeira · January 2004

SVTs will still linger in dealers lots for a few months after production stops.

Mitsu just showed the Concept E, so styling will certainly be a lot sportier for the next Eclipse.

I don't think people will limit their cross-shopping to just coupes. Besides, many of the 2 doors we're discussing are hatchbacks.

-juice

pzev · January 2004

Look at it this way. Right now it looks like the Celica and MR2 are going to be dropped. Assuming this is true and the Supra never makes it, what do you have left?

You have the Corolla which is blobby and tall and has no coupe version. You have the Camry which gets bigger and more boat-like with each redesign. The Avalon? This is pretty much aimed at potential Buick buyers. Camry Solara? Well that's something, but is more aimed at older people. The Matrix? Nothing really special there, but I'm sure some would disagree.

The possible trend here is Toyota will be the mainstream brand appealing to the masses and leaving the youth-oriented sporty cars to Scion. Yes people can probably figure out Scion is Toyota, but if they keep it up when looking at a Toyota badge will remind people of bland, boring cars. If Honda was to drop the Civic coupe and S2000 they would be pretty boring as well.

You can bet when a lot of young people think of Honda that the S2000 comes to mind. It's a low volume car but in my opinion is important to the brand as a whole.

Will this hurt Toyota? Maybe in the distant future, but they'll still make big profits and have no trouble. But a Toyota badge being associated with complete blandness and being boring is NOT good.

By the way in a recent interview or press release or something with a Toyota executive during the recent autoshows (I may be wrong on this and it may have been a non-Toyota executive) they pretty much said the next IS300 will offer sedan, coupe, and convertible versions. Again by not offering a Supra they're letting Lexus handle that segment with the coupe IS300. They could easily do like Nissan and make a Supra off the IS300 platform but it seems they choose not to.

Again giving anything remotely sporty, youth-oriented, and interesting to the Scion/Lexus brands leaves Toyota with all the mainstream boring cars which will hurt the Toyota badge image. That's my opinion at least.

revdrluv · January 2004

Which is especially dumb because it is the Toyota name that is on most of the companies big racing endeavors.

gambit293 · January 2004

Let's play SAT analogies!

If
Lexus : Toyota
as
Cadillac : GM
Then

Toyota : Toyota
(????) : GM
(Chevy? Oldsmobile? Buick??)

Scion : Toyota
(Pontiac? Saturn?) : GM

Ugh, I think this is making me ill. Better stop now...

alpha01 · January 2004

"Again giving anything remotely sporty, youth-oriented, and interesting to the Scion/Lexus brands leaves Toyota with all the mainstream boring cars which will hurt the Toyota badge image. That's my opinion at least."

Toyota's badge image is NOT, nor will it ever be, one of youth appeal. Toyota is a fine purveyor of the cars that mainstream America purchases. If the sporty buyers go to Lexus and Scion, that doesnt really mean ANYTHING to Toyota's brand image. You contend that "when a lot of young people think of Honda that the S2000 comes to mind". Thats fine. So what? You think when a lot of young people think of Toyota, sportiness/freshness comes to mind? I dont think so, so I don't think theres much to lose. I don't think we are going to see some crazy, dramatic paradigm shift where the French Vanilla Toyota flavor doesnt sell. Not everyone knows a lot about the industry or the cars it produces, or even cares to. If anything, perhaps Toyota is more closely carving out its identity as French Vanilla. Why? French Vanilla sells. (For reference, I would define plain Vanilla cars like the Taurus, which is basically a good design but devoid of ANY substantial competitive advantages).

The majority of buyers of TOYOTAS are NOT young people, something, that it seems, is finally sinking in with Toyota brass. The majority of Toyota buyers think Camry or Corolla when they hear the name, and that image, while indeed marked by ubiquity and perhaps blandness, is also marked by reliability, efficiency, tranquility.

So, though your assumptions have not been confirmed, EVEN IF Toyota moves all its sporty/fresh/youth appealing cars to EITHER SCION or LEXUS, its not going to be losing much, if anything. That said, I dont see that happening, as cars like the spiced up and capable- but not jalepeño-Corolla XRS show.

~alpha

revdrluv · January 2004

Well, apparently we will see about that.

Although, if Toyota is truly not going to sell any sporty cars, then they should also change the names on the sides of their IRL, F1 and Grand Am race cars, not to mention name of the whole Toyota Atlantic Championship Series and Toyota Pro/Celebrity Race.

ateixeira · January 2004

I bet Scion demographics will be far younger than Toyota's.

-juice

pzev · January 2004

"Toyota's badge image is NOT, nor will it ever be, one of youth appeal."

That may be true, but I disagree that it could never be anything else. all they had to do is drop the Echo and replace it with the Scion xA and/or xB with a Toyota badge. Drop the Celica and replace it with the tC, name it a Celica or use a different name. Use the next-gen IS300 platform and make a Supra. Give it a bit more power than the IS300 and keep the price in check. (around $35,000)

This would go a long way to getting Toyota back on track.

"The majority of buyers of TOYOTAS are NOT young people, something, that it seems, is finally sinking in with Toyota brass."

Exactly. That's why Scion was invented, and also why I don't understand why you think my theories can't be true. It's like they've given up and are going to make Toyota the next Saturn/Buick or whatever.

You have a company as big as Toyota with lots of money to throw around and they choose to give up on making Toyota appeal to any younger customer base and instead let the Scion badge do the job. Yes they'll still get their money regardless but it's a shame a powerhouse like Toyota will now be known as boring, french vanilla cars.

A few months ago I saw two VERY attractive women (look to be early 20's) driving around in a MR2 roadster in a parking lot. Suddenly Toyota appeared youthful and "hip" and "cool", at least to me. Seeing Supras and xB's with Toyota badges driving around will make Toyota seem more youthful. Why a powerhouse like Toyota has given up and is letting the Toyota name be looked at the way it will be in the future is beyond me.

ateixeira · January 2004

I think Corolla's median age was around 36 until the latest generation came out, then it crept up to 42. That's pretty old for an entry-level car.

The Echo never sold well and also had older demographics, so basically it failed to draw young people into the brand. That's why they created Scion.

I think it's working, to some extent.

-juice

revdrluv · January 2004

Well nothing else in the Scion's price range really has as much equipment or character. I'm tempted to try an xB myself.

gambit293 · January 2004

Pzev echoes my sentiments about car brands:

The current lineup of CARS are what make the brand's image, more than any other factor. The Echo failed to attract young buyers not because Toyota is uncool, unhip, old... but rather because the ECHO itself was fairly unhip, dull, boring. IMO, it was a rather poorly designed experiment from the start.

Some brands (ie oldsmobile, buick) might have a harder time bringing about change to their image using this strategy, but Toyota is no where close to having that problem.

alpha01 · January 2004

I am just of the opinion that starting with a clean sheet, in this case, the Scion brand, it will be easier for Toyota to appeal to the youth market and acheive the results it desires, instead of introducing the tC as the next Celica, replacing the ECHO, etc. The not so youthful image of Toyotas staltwarts (Camry, Corolla, Avalon) seems to me, to inhibit injecting youth into the line. You disagree, and that is fine.

I feel its a good idea for Toyota to use Scion to springboard its sales to youthful consumers, and apparently, so does Toyota, or else it wouldnt have launched it.

Really, I cant think of another car company that offers 17 different models. Not even Chevy does (yet). Scion (and to a lesser extent, the alleged Lexus-ing of the future upscale sports models) will allow the Toyota brand to maintain its image, and even more closely define the precision with which automobiles should be designed and built. It needn't be flashy, youthful, or sporting to do this OR to achieve the continued success or long-term profitability that is so heavily sought.

~alpha

gee35coupe · January 2004

"poorly designed experiment from the start."

Maybe from the demographic point of view. But have you driven one? That's a tight little car. It has Toyota all over it in the reliability and durability area. It's really not a bad ride. I wouldn't mind a Yaris hatch that the Canadians get.

pzev · January 2004

Ok I found that article on the future plans for Lexus. Not sure if I can post it on here but I'll just highlight the main things.

Redesign of every car by 2007

All-wheel drive available across the board (to reel in customers in the snow belt)

Addition of flagship ABOVE LS430 (will most likely compete with Mercedes S600, BMW 7 series, and the like)

New factory performance division (similar to Mercedes-Benz's AMG)

IS300 to be cheapest model, will offer sedan, coupe, convertible variations, will offer a couple of engine choices, will come out after the new GS which won't be out until early 2005, so look for IS300 in fall 2005 probably

Lexus will offer more performance, bigger, better wheels, and the like

The LS430 will have a more "passionate appearance"

Scion

Don't have the article in front of me for this one but it seems to stay "youthful" they plan to swap out cars very quickly, the xB which may be hot today could be a dud and old news tomorrow

So the possibility of very short lives for their cars is there, after 4 years an entirely new car might replace the old one to stay "hip" and "cool"

Toyota

Have not seen very good articles on what their direction is, the latest one on the Supra not coming and the arrival of the FJ concept is the best indication I've seen on the direction they're taking, but until more plans are revealed it's hard to say which way they're choosing to go with Toyota

kyril · January 2004

Hi folks,

I almost gave up on finding a car in this freaking market that suits my needs, until I found the tC. I thought for a while that one can no longer by a hatch with decent features and decent motor under 20K (save your breath if you feel compelled to give suggestions - I tried them all). But here is the question: what motor does it get? I don't remember a Toy motor that's 2.4L and makes 160 HP. Any opinions?

Cheers,
K

alpha01 · January 2004

The tC's engine is almost directly lifted from the current (read: 2002+ Camry), and we first saw it here in the Highlander. It now also powers the RAV4, and in that version, produces 161hp and 165 lb. ft.

So, the 2.4L debuted with the Highlander in Spring 01 as an 02 model, I believe. It became standard in the redesigned 02 Camry in the Fall of 2001, at which time it also became the base engine in the Solara. For 2004, it was added to the RAV4 as the standard (and only) engine.

~alpha

ambull · February 2004

The latest issue of Car & Driver says the base model tC will sell for under $17,000. It makes sense to me. I don't think it's worth any more than that.

alpha01 · February 2004

" I don't think it's worth any more than that."

Based on what?

~alpha

ateixeira · February 2004

Remember Scion's pricing strategy.

It's not like they'll sell them with rebates and invoice pricing like Toyota can with the Celica. So they have to price the tC more carefully to begin with.

-juice

pzev · February 2004

I've given it some thought and think the $18k price I've been guessing may be a little too much. Keep in mind many Americans will want to opt for the optional automatic which will add $800 or so. If it starts at 18k and add in the automatic and destination charge you're now talking over 19k. I think this is too over the top in pricing for Scion.

If they get aggressive I think they'll try for a $16,500 starting price, something like that. Otherwise I think they'll price it in the $17k range. If they do price it 18k or above then it starts to lose its value in my opinion.

Of course this is all assuming that they use the Scion no haggle pricing strategy and you won't see any rebates over $500. If you can deal on it like a Toyota then 18k would work, but with no room to haggle they must price this car no more than $17.5k.

Even at 18k though it looks like a pretty good value compared to an Acura RSX. I never thought of the RSX as some great value though so that's not saying awhole lot.

Also after looking at some up close interior shots taken from autoshows the interior seems to have some bits of cheapness to it. This is certainly not on par with the Solara (as others mentioned already that it wouldn't be anyway) so to me 18k seems almost overpriced all things considered. Not a terrible price but nothing great either.

I think $16.5k-$17k is where the car needs to be and I think this is what Toyota will end up pricing it. With a manual it'll be under $17k but with an automatic it'll go over $17k. That's my guess.

Scion tC

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