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Comments
Half right, half wrong. The second row does slide on the current generation Pilot, but not on the new generation MDX.
I'm hoping to take a look at the 08 Highlander today for comparison--not in the market but eventually will want a vehicle like this for the family...
You're right. Toyota has finally found the formula to sell to the lowest common denominator.
Mackabee
This attempt at faux wood is better than previous models. At least it looks like wood in a satin finish. The cheap door panels actually started with the 05 Avalon and is just showing up in everything Toyota since.
Mackabee
DrFill
If you are going to drive it like a car, the HL serves tyour needs better, and will cost significantly less to run, like an Acadia vs a Tahoe.
If you don't tow, that nullifies the 4Runner. If you don't pay for gas, that nullifies the HL.
They both will ride well, but differently. It should probably come down to things like seat comfort/height, ergonomics, acceleration, and other intangibles. You won't lose, but these vehicles have very different missions in life by design.
In my neck of the woods, 4Runners aren't big sellers, and you can strike a great deal pretty easily, with $1500 or rate.
The Sprt has the X-REAS shock system for maximum stability and traction off-road, but I wouldn't call any 4rUnner a soft-rider, regardless of trim. Considering it's ride height and weight, you don't want too much body roll if you are Toyota.
I learned to drive, many years ago, on a 1990 4Runner, so it has a place in my heart.
DrFill
Doc, doc, where do you come up with this stuff? :sick:
The X-REAS Sport Enhancement Suspension was designed to help improve vehicle on-road handling performance. If you want to know how it works I'll be happy to explain it to you.
Mackabee
DrFill
Mackabee
The demo Limited 4x2 I test drove in Honolulu had the auto rear air option.
In fact, I think all of the Limiteds are going to have that option in Hawaii (the aforementioned "mandatory" option groups). It's just as well; in this climate, the more air-conditioning you can get, the better.
Here's my two cents...
Back in 2001, I almost bought a 4Runner, but bought a Highlander instead. Although I liked the looks of the 4Runner better, the Highlander handled better, rode better, was quieter inside, felt more "modern," got better gas mileage, and was even slightly cheaper.
Off-roading and towing are not important for me, as I do neither. Everything in my head told me that the Highlander was the better vehicle for my needs, so that's what I bought.
Several years later, I sold the Highlander and bought a 4Runner. The 4Runner's redesign in 2003 made a huge difference in the way it drove, handled, rode, etc. It felt way more substantial than the Highlander (as it should have, given that it was wider, longer, taller, and heavier). I also loved the exterior (more so after they ditched the grey cladding).
Fast forward to today. I'm pretty sure my next vehicle will be an '08 Highlander Limited. I was initially disappointed with the new exterior from the photos, but after seeing it in person, I think it looks great (especially in Magnetic Grey).
There are new features that I'm looking forward to having: the power rear door, smart-key, Bluetooth, and rear-view camera. The latter two are available on the 4Runner with navigation only (not available in Hawaii). If any of these features are important to you, then the Highlander is the easy choice. If towing or going off road are important, then the choice is also very easy.
I wouldn't be surprised if I jump back to the 4Runner when the 5th generation is introduced in a few years. I guess that's one of the great things about having two mid-size SUVs with product cycles set several years apart.
- throttle was responsive, we both thought acceleration was brisk, although engine noise was just a bit louder than I expected upon medium/heavy acceleration
- very good road manners: not bouncy/harsh like SUVs, not too much lean in corners
- my wife liked the visibility (she's 5'3")
- front seats were comfortable. My arm fit on the center armrest, although an armrest built into the seat would probably be a little more comfortable.
- bluetooth is nice!
- cargo space behind the 3rd row is about 14 inches at the floor, and probably less than 6 inches at the top near the window. Enough room for a reasonable amount of groceries, or a folded-up stroller, or a few pieces of luggage (i.e. picking someone up from the airport). Not enough room for a beach vacation, that's for sure. Unless you fold down the 3rd row, and then you're set!
- fake wood is what it is: fake looking
- access to third row is non-existent: no way grandparents can contort their way behind that 2nd row. A better option will be to make them seat in the 2nd row, slide toward the middle and simply walk down to the third row via the space between the captains chairs.
-3rd row seats are not split fold-down (the entire seat folds down)
The only comparison we have so far is the Acadia, which was also nice but bigger: extremely easy to access third row, much more room behind 3rd row, less engine noise than the HL, but acceleration is very laggy, no bluetooth, less visibility than the HL
So in our opinion, for a family of 4 the Highlander is better suited to our needs. We don't need all the room of the Acadia, but the Acadia is very competent and if I had 3 kids I wouldn't hesitate to get the Acadia. But man, they have to fix that sluggish acceleration, the Highlander wins hands down in that department.
In this way a region isn't forced to take 2WD vehicles when 90% of demand is for 4WD. OTOH in other districts like SE VA it's the reverse. 60-80% 2WD is what the buyers want.
And it's not that big a country. If one region doesn't meet your requirements then there's always other options. It seems to be working well in addressing the majority of buyers.
You are entitled to your opinion of course.
First off, the black cloth interior comes across as a lot cheaper than the grey leather interior. Even the door panels in black somehow seem cheaper.
As far as ride, it was definitely firmer than the Ltd but by no means harsh. I preferred it as the handling was more confident also. Anyone who calls either car harsh must be used to old Cadillacs.
The dealer is currently looking into whether he can get me a Sport with leather, NAV and a few other minor options. I also got him to agree to 3% over true cost (figuring in 2% of MSRP hold back). Wish me luck.
DrFill
Full-size SUVs need V8s. Real world economy will probably be lower in the full-size GMs, as merging and maintaining speed will be priorities.
DrFill
We might end up going for a Ltd if my wife decides she wants the 3rd row. Currently we're looking at deleting it. However, a Sport with leather, 3rd row, NAV, tow and some other minor options is only about $500 less than a Ltd.
Anyone have experience with Family Toyota on the purchase and/or service side?
When I was buying my 2003 Highlander, the dealer told me that they had discontinued Bluestone. I checked with another dealer and they showed me the shipment logs which showed a ton of bluestones being delivered. Corporate offices also confirmed Bluestone was NOT being phased out. I went back to the original dealer to let him hang himself (again). I asked, "are you sure about Bluestone color being dropped" and he said yes. What a liar.
I drove back there about a month later to show him my Bluestone Highlander, buy he was gone (probably fired).
Somehow, I doubt that the region's choices are "arbitrary." After all, it's in their best interest to pick combinations that people want.
I'll bet the dealer that stated that no Limiteds were coming in that region with the 3rd row air was desperately trying to sell whatever was on the lot. Why give a customer a reason to delay their purchase? :confuse:
This is troublesome to me why did Toyota take the rode feel away. I am looking to replace my 04 and will be test driving a limited later. But it sounds like I will be waiting for the Pilot redesign or moving up to a MDX. And I don't want to spend the extra money in operating the MDX.
Anyone know when the Pilot Desiel is coming?
Fitzmall is advertising $1000 over invoice with TTL for comparison. That's got to be an $8000 spread.
Anyways, HL is off my list without going to look at it. I would have bought an AWD limited with option C, but at over $40K with no memory seats and mirrors, forget it. At that price I have the Acura MDX, Volvo XC90 and Buick Enclave as viable options. Heck even the Hyundai Veracruz has memory seats for less money. Not to mention, I personally think the HL styling is boring, middle of the road and non offensive. Typical Toyota.
When the initial launch is made usually there are 1 or 2 or 3 vehicles rather than the 40 or 60 that should be in stock. If the 3 are sold then nothing is available to show to the rest of the public.
However if a buyer absolutely has to have the very first one...and is willing to pay for the privilege... then why not? It a free country, nobody was holding a gun to the buyer's head. He could have waited 60 days or so. As long as it's fairly applied and clear in advance it's just the market at work.
When the FJ's came out our Service Manager had to have one of the first ones. Normally we can buy at $450 over invoice ( we can get an FJ now at that price ) but he had to have one of the first ones...so he paid $1000 over MSRP.
I don't want to pay for options I don't want, a sunroof forinstance. I also see little logic in how the option packages are assembled (in other words, why those combinations for package a, etc.).
Obviously that can't be done for a high-volume automobile. They have to build them based on what each region thinks will satisfy the most buyers. It's the 80/20 rule. Not everyone is going to be happy, but hopefully you'll be able to satisfy a majority of your buyers (otherwise you will be left with a lot of unsold inventory).
Frankly, I'm not sure if there is a better, feasible alternative. Honda seems to release various model grades with no options. In the past, it was relatively simple -- DX, LX, EX. Now, when you look at their lineups, you have an EX with leather, EX with navigation, etc. That seems more confusing and even less flexible to me, IMHO.
Nissan uses option packages that are factory-mandated, as opposed to being ordered as a package by a region. This means that if a factory package includes seat heaters, for example, I'm going to get those heaters even if they are of no use to me in my region where the temperature never goes below 70 degrees. That seems very inflexible to me as well.
The first 60 days have limited supply, so buyers who can't wait until a full compliment of vehicles is received tend to fall into those categories rather easily, or they can wait until more vehicles arrive.
The "I want NAV, but no moonroof" buyers can wait.
Since discounts are hard to come by, buyers who want the latest, but at a low price, can get a lightly equipped model. Those that can't buy a car without NAV and other doodads will usually go for the gusto models. Or at least test drive them, and get sold on the hair and make-up.
The model you really want is probably 60 days away. Dealers know you are weak. They're knida like women, although they aren't universally hated, but that's a story for another forum....
DrFill
The big problem I have with the vehicle is the seating configuration. You are very limited with the number of passengers and cargo you can comfortably carry. I can't believe they didn't offer a 2nd row 60/40 split bench and a 50/50 split 3rd bench. The second row middle seat is a joke. I don't think I would ever use it because it is so uncomfortable.
On a positive note, the front seats and 2nd row captains seats are very comfortable.
IMO the seating configuration is going to limit sales somewhat. The dealership I was at had at least eight on the lot. My salesman said that they weren't dealing yet, but he didn't think it would be long before they would have to start.
My gut feeling is that Toyota missed the mark with the new Highlander because of the seating configuration. Don't get me wrong, the Highlander will sell just fine because of Toyota's reputation for quality. But I don't think the overall design is good enough to command a premium price for very long, given the competition.
With Honda you have NO OPTIONS.
With toyota you have combined packages.
Limiting the variations increases productivity during manufacturing, this increase the length of the runs which decreases downtime and potential processing errors...and increases profits.
Every time Honda and Toyota come out with a new model it's the same discussion over and over and over. Then in 3 months there are all the variations you might want.. Life goes on
Also, sure, Honda/Acura has option packages. No problem. The difference is those packages are nationwide and set by Honda, not some regional distributor.
It doesn't matter really. I have zero sympathy for Toyota in this case. I know what they can do as far as manufacturing and I know what kind of people tend to work at dealers and at the regional level.
It's pure stupidity that gets perpetuated because nobody thinks to try and do it better. The problems they've had with the Tundra launch bear out what I'm saying.
I disagree with you on this spidey. :shades: The reason some dealers do this is they hope to "snag" an ignorant, uninformed buyer.
"1000.00 over MSRP"
Heck, you have to change stores, I buy all my new cars at invoice or below. I can't believe you guys actually sold your service manager at $1000.00 over MSRP! :mad:
Mackabee
Obviously not with Toyota's processes. Toyota builds cars very differently than any other manufacturer of cars or widgets, or what have you. It's called the Toyota Production System, or TPS for short. Part of that system is the Just in Time system which consists of having only the parts that are needed for the vehicle being built two hours before they are needed.
"The parts are in the factory."
There are no spare parts laying around in the factory. I guess you forgot to read the fine print at the corporate website and on the brochures that states: "Not all options available in all regions. See your local dealer for availability"? or words to that effect.
"I know what kind of people tend to work at dealers and at the regional level."
And what kind of people would those be Sir?
"The problems they've had with the Tundra launch bear out what I'm saying."
And what problems would those be?
Mackabee
The cars for all regions are coming from the same factory so, there's no manufacturing reason the options shouldn't be available everywhere in the US. The "region" thing is stupid. If any other manufacturer does this, I haven't run across it. Does Nissan? Does Honda? I don't think so. Subaru doesn't. The Americans don't and the Europeans certainly don't.
What kind of people work at dealers/regional distributors? The kind that totally misread the truck market and decided to order way too many base V6 Tundras and not nearly enough V8 4x4's with the extended cab. Read previous posts in this forum.
If you're saying that people working in car dealers are highly educated geniuses, I'd love for you to direct me to one in my area.