Sulfur Smell from Toyota 4Runner

swschrad · November 2003

who had a grain truck parked on a hill above the interstate with a sign on it... lemon, Belchfire won't repair it, year after year.

every year and a half or so, a different model and make of truck was up there, unless it was harvest time, then just the sign was there in its latest painting.

no sign of it the past 8 or so years. I suppose he either died, ran out of money buying trucks that he couldn't stand and lost the place, or a combination of the two.

my reaction was the same as driving by the character who had insults and offbeat religious propaganda on a big sign outside his 60-acre farm on the way up to the iron range...

"refill your meds"

that's what folks think going by one of those actions. don't be like Spike.

driftracer · November 2003

with an old Chevy truck (early '80s 3/4 ton 4x4) who has huge plywall sideboards that extend upward about 12 feet. It's parked a block off the town's main intersection (legally).

With huge letters, he wrote all over the boards about how judges and the police conspire to relieve white men of their civil rights, yada, yada, yada (he's an older white guy..civil rights?).

It goes on to "dare" and attorney" with "guts" to take on his case and "show those devils calling themselves judges" what for.

I'm sure he hasn't gotten many calls from lawyers.

Just like a billboard would draw the same thought - so what is the guy's real problem? It isn't civil rights, or a problem vehicle...

orahovats · November 2003

I just noticed that if the truck is warm it does not produce the smell even with hard driving. I have a 04 4runner limited.

swschrad · November 2003

that would indicate there is an overrich condition in the safe operating engine curve in the computer to me.

how about the folks with the chronic issues, do you still have stinkers warm?

there was posting that it got worse with time, consistent with loading up the cat with fuel or byproducts, that would burn off later.

since the auto industry eventually got a waiver from the gummint to collaborate on design of the flatbed catalytic converter, and since there are still a lot of stinkers of many brands on the road (more in the last year or two than in say 2000)... I keep thinking that there's a one-size-fits-all cat out there that either doesn't really fit these cars... or that they have unusually nasty engines.

in following this thread because it has evinced some traces of diagnosis, still haven't seen anything looking like gas sampling or bench testing to see where the fault lies in the air/fuel/exhaust cycle.

that is what would be nice to see about now. nobody wants to drill any holes and put in multi-gas sensors, I guess... including the manufacturers.

lpm141 · November 2003

Boy I guess we have a bunch of advertising experts on here. The billboard would have some effect depending on where it was located. If it was by the Toyota dealership you don't think new 4runner customers would not read the billboard and investigate further before purchasing. I would imagine their sales would be effected. The bottom line is Toyota and the local dealership live off of the the bottom line and if your impeding that in anyway way they will find some solution. I am not saying it would get the problem fixed but I definitely think it would get the ball rolling. You might even get some local press. So why everyone puts down the billboard idea I feel it is an effective tools that is used world wide by all types of companies to send their message. It sure beats put your head in the sand and doing nothing.

driftracer · November 2003

it's not that it wouldn't be effective - sure it would - it would also get you sued, so you have to deal with that.

Also, you'd have to sign on with an advertising company stupid enough to take a chance against Toyota - your message would be watered-down by them, if you found an advertising company that would do this at all.

I'm not an advertising expert, but I wrote dealership advertising for 3 dealer groups - advertising companies don't take chances with getting sued by major corporations while trying to help an angry consumer handle a personal vendetta.

alan88 · November 2003

With so many people complaining here, I'm a little surprised that Edmunds' consumer rating on this vehicle is still 8.8, with no one even mentioned about this sulfur problem. asif1 even dubbed it as "Best SUV in Market". I guess he gave out his rating before the smell started. I'm thinking that if all the owners of smelly runners go to the rating section and give a rating it deserves, it will do a better job to get Toyota's attention than the billboard would. And it doesn't cost you any. It's a Toyota problem, not a dealer problem after all.

driftracer · November 2003

it's an "every vehicle in the nation" problem - please don't think for a moment, that as Toyota owners, you're the only ones out there with this problem - you're not.

alan88 · November 2003

I dont know where did you get the idea that I think Im the only one having this problem. However, please let me rephrase in response to your post: Its a Toyota problem, as well as many other carmakers problem. But since we are all Toyota owners, lets only talk about Toyota. I assume you are not suggesting people to go to Honda or Volvo for their problems on 4Runner. The fact that other carmakers have the same problem does not make Toyota innocent, do you agree?

Also could you please kindly share with us some supporting data on your claim: it's an EVERY vehicle in the nation problem. Its NOT. Its not even on every 4Runner. Why cant Toyota make a side by side comparison between a 4Runner that smells and one that doesnt. Im sure thats not difficult for Toyota to do. I think it all comes down to how much itll cost to fix all the problematic cars. That shows how much Toyota cares about its customers.

Just an FYI, I dont own a 4Runner myself so I dont have this problem. Im just trying to help here. Actually I was moments away from buying a 04 model a few weeks ago, but backed out after reading all the posts here. Toyota has lost at least one potential buyer because of this problem.

driftracer · November 2003

I don't think you're the only one - and not every single car has the issue, but every major manufacturer has the problem with a number of their vehicles.

I've experienced the same issue, dating back to 1992, with a GMC, Honda, Ford and a Chrysler.

hnavarr · November 2003

Besides the smell (which seem to be blown out of proportion) is there any real problems with the redesigned 4runner? Because I'd rather deal with a periodic smell than periodic recalls or tow trucks.
I know, I've owned domestics before.
My 04, v6, 3rd seat is awsome. It has more than enough power and its quiet. I've got 2000 miles on it and it does smell... but I love that new car smell.

user777 · November 2003

because it looked like you were thinking about potential root causes. some time way back, one question asked was, do these vehicles exhibiting the problem have a CAT or a fuel mixture issue?

noone seems to be following up on that.

someone must know if there a device that one can use on these vehicles to see if they are running too rich... someone once told me of a device called a "colortune" (or something like that - i forget) which replaced the sparkplug and visually could be used to determine if the cylinder F/A mixture was appropriate or not.

realizing that not every vehicle has easy access to the plugs, one still would believe though that there is a device or technique at the disposal of the service shop which should be able to help rule out a F/A or other emissions control issue.

CAT? F/A mixture? Stuck injectors? gap somewhere in the piping from the exhaust manifold down to the CAT (i presume the last is easy to check visually on a lift).

seemed there were two facets to the issues experienced by some of these drivers: (1) root cause, and (2) how the smell was getting into the cabin.

i'm interested, as are some others why people aren't persuing and reporting on either (1) or (2).

if i had this problem on a vehicle which i owned, i'd be trying the experiments suggested, but i'd also be asking around to see what i could learn about possible contributing factors... i'd be trying to find a sympathetic shop that would be capable of diagnosing an overly rich condition, or a CAT problem.

fl4runner · November 2003

I too have the sulphur smell inside the cabin of my 2003 4Runner. I have heard a lot of talk on this message board about it. Many people smell it outside their truck. Even though the smell is repulsive, I can deal with it as long as I don't have to smell it inside my vehicle. If we smell it inside the cabin, there is a serious problem.

It is bad enough that the new vehicles smell bad on the outside. It probably has to do with something new in how gas/air is processed in the new engines and emissions equipment. It seems to affect many makes and models of vehicles, not just Toyota. I do not wish to discuss gas formulation, it is irrelevant to this discussion.

In my case I can smell the exhaust inside my 03 4Runner. I feel this is a very dangerous situation. Not only is the Sulphur dioxide unpleasant and hazardous, so is the carbon monoxide and other gases. If you can smell exhaust inside the cabin with the windows shut, sunroof shut, and recirculate AC on, then outside air (exhaust) is leaking in causing a potentially dangerous situation. I could be driving down the interstate and pass out at the wheel. What about prolonged exposure? That can't be safe. I need to know how the exhaust is getting into the vehice. I have approached the dealer service dept with the problem. They say bring it in and they will look at it. I have gotten the run-around with them before. They have even lied to me to get out of doing work on my vehicle. I do not trust my dealership. I have found that the service department is near worthless. I feel that if I leave it in their hands, all I will get out of the experience is toyota service mechanics joyriding in my vehicle and no results. I miss my Acura service, it was impecable. The Honda service was good as well. I will probably wind up bringing it in and getting the same run-around that the rest of you have received when bringing in your 4Runners for the same problem. This is very frustrating.

fl4runner · November 2003

I notice when I accelerate hard the smell is the worst. This is most pronounced when entering a freeway. Apparently the prolonged acceleration is the worst offender at getting the stink to act up. Others have mentioned that when they "hot dog" their 4Runner they can smell it stopped at a light. People have mentioned that when you accelerate hard, more sulphur dioxide is generated in the exhaust system. This may make it more noticeable, or it may contribute to the smell by producing more pressure in the exhaust piping causing gas to leak out a crack or lose fitting? I am no mechanic, but I could see where the piping fits together to other pipes, muffler, catalytic converter, exit ports of the engine, and sensors. I guess someone could use soap and water (like those looking for a natural gas leak) to seek out the leaks. But this would require conditions of hard acceleration to cause the pressure to exceed the threshold and leak out. I am not sure revving the engine in your driveway is suitable to reproduce the appropriate conditions. Any suggestions?

The other possibility is that air (and exhaust) always leak into the cabin through the rear hatch. There is a large gasket that seals the hatch to the truck. I checked it with a slip of paper and it seems to make a good seal. However, we have a window that rolls down. I tested that as well. There is a good seal all around except I can see little gaps in the molding at the base. Also, who knows what large gaps may exist where the tail lights attach to the frame of the truck, or license plate light and other fixtures attach to the hatch door. The truck (big box) makes a vacuum as it travels causing a suction in the back which can possibly draw air into the cabin from the outside. Cars or other aerodynamic vehicles would not be affected by this phenomenon.

Has anyone taken the vehicle into the service dept.? Have anything to report? I plan on taking it in next week. I was hoping to gather facts to help the nearly useless service people. Without severe hand holding they will not fix a thing. They are not good at solving hard problems. They are only capable of fixing the obvious, repeatable ones.

sacstate1 · November 2003

My dealership experience has left me with the belief that the 'dealer' can't really fix anything. They take notes, nod their head and invariably place.... "Could Not Duplicate" on any issue I have concerning noises, thumps, rattles and exhaust noises/smells. They change the oil, rotate the tires and charge me $82.01.

Unless the part is dangling from the engine or body and the problem is blatantly obvious, these 'dealers' can't or won't fix the bigger issues. It is almost a game of conspiracy between the dealer/Toyota and its customers to keep the customers 'looking like they don't know what they are talking about' and stamp CND on any work order involving actually trouble shooting a problem.

Little wonder, if you were an owner of a Toyota dealer/service department and the majority of your shop employees are unqualified to work on these highly technical machines and the turnover rate of the employees is worse than Burger King, would you risk the liability of ripping into a factory sealed transmission, engine block and having your unqualified employee do more damage than good? As the owner of the vehicle, I certainly would not! That is why I bought Toyota, to keep these local unqualified dealer mechanics out of the major systems of the vehicle, ie. engine, transmission, etc.

From what I have read and experienced, the majority of these dealer service people cannot even balance a tire/wheel correctly, much less diagnose an offensive odor coming from somewhere on your vehicle. Might as well ask them the secret to the universe.

driftracer · November 2003

for the dealership to protect the manufacturer.

sacstate1 · November 2003

And it is self-serving for the consumer to visit the dealer who visits the manufacturer. Or, it is self-serving for the manufacturer to take care of the dealer who takes care of the consumer.

driftracer · November 2003

has nothing to do with what the consumer does - I'm talking about the dealerships protecting the manufacturer from class-action suits and major recalls by playing dumb and making consumers do all the work on a repetitive issue - like Dodge Neon headgaskets or DCC van transmissions.

Some service guys would say "wow, that's the first problem like that we've seen".

If the dealership service folks admit the level of problems with a particular vehicle, the manufacturer will be inundated with screaming consumers, and by the way, the service guy will lose his job.

martin45 · November 2003

The sulfur entering the cabin of this piece of crap is a very big problem, and it is a battle that Toyota is winning. (at this moment)

Toyota customer service is hiding behind the gasoline theory. Why shouldnt they? It absolves them of repair responsibility and saves them money. Call Toyota customer service and you will be fed BS. But dont let that stop you. Flood them with calls. Let them hear and feel your frustration.

Forget the dealer service department, they are hiding behind the service bulletin issued by Toyota stating the problem is gasoline related and therefore not warrantable. Waste of time.

There are a few of you here that understand the seriousness of the problem, while others are just very defensive.

Just get rid of the piece of trash, and do what you can to prevent others from making the same mistake.

Peace

Mr_Shiftright · November 2003

Okay, I think we need to move one with new information here. Martin, we got your message and thank you, but
Town Hall isn't set up to be the Complaint Station and unless there is something constructive for people to use here, I'd like to suggest we leave the repetitive brand-bashing behind. We know you are one unhappy owner and we got the message!

Any further "tirade" type posts will be discouraged, so everyone, please try to post useful info for us (and for Toyota if they are listening).

I must have the worst or the best luck. I snagged a 2004 4Runner (remember I drove an '03 that I rented last month) and I still don't smell anything on this new one, either.

I'm going to see if I can borrow it again and do the hard acceleration test up the hill.

corancher · November 2003

Or at least a part of it, anyway. If you've got the smell on a frequent basis and it's getting inside the cabin you might try some of the fixes mentioned previously in this thread. They're cheap and simple and easily reversible. Probably a lot better bet than hassling with your dealer, and more convenient, too! Lots of people have worked with dealers, with little or no positive effect, as far as I can tell. So far nobody has tried a simple exhaust extension/redirection. Except for the folks who've changed to Borla exhausts, of course, but that's an expensive approach. Those exhausts come out of the side of the vehicle instead of the back, and I think one poster indicated it was a fix.

Previous posts in this thread (by me, among others; you can search on my name as a starting point) describe the location of the cabin exhausts and where the smell might be getting in. See, for example, posts #142, 156, 182, 194, 275, 276, 277, 278, 310, 315.

I'll bet you can readily fix the problem of the smell (and any other exhaust gasses) getting into the cabin. Cutting down on how much smell comes out your exhaust (at the least, it shouldn't happen unless you're accelerating hard) is a thornier problem. Let's tackle the easiest & most important stuff first!

tacoviva · November 2003

I fixed mine, I sold it. after going through the whole arbitration thing with Toyota (worthless), I had no choice. Unfortunate really. It is a nice vehicle.

Yes, many new vehicles have sulfur coming out of their exhaust pipes, but the 4Runner is the only one that lets it INSIDE the cabin. That's the problem. Not the sulfur outside....that just tells you the system is working. But it should never be INSDIE. When talking to Toyota make sure that they repeat back to you that the issue is not the smell itself, but its presence in the cabin.

I really feel bad for you folks.

corancher · November 2003

First, let me get my tongue planted firmly in my cheek. Now, here goes . . .

I think I've got one big part of this problem all figured out: The sulfur compounds affect the mental processes of the vehicle owners, even at concentrations too small to be a health issue. These compounds completely disable the owners' willingness to try any fixes on their own, no matter how simple or easy, leaving the owners only able to focus on getting dealers and/or Toyota corporate to fix the problem.

This perfectly explains the willingness of some owners to make multiple trips to the dealer, try multiple brands and grades of fuel, make multiple posts here, and even lose multiple thousands of dollars trading off the vehicle in question while not being willing to attempt a cheap, self-service fix. Or maybe they've actually tried these fixes and the smell just renders them unwilling to post the results here.

tacoviva, you said in post 157 (response to my post 156) that you'd look into this. But by post 166 it's clear that the sulfur smell had seeped into your sinuses and changed your mind.

Proof of my theory? I rest my case.

And now I unplant my tongue and say tacoviva, I think your sympathy is misplaced, at least for most of us 4Runner owners. I hope you can understand why it stings a little when some of us without the problem invest time and effort to help others with a fix, only to have the recommendations ignored.

We'll make progress eventually, though. Some mutant out there must be immune to the mind-bending effects of sulfur!

swschrad · November 2003

if there's a fix, it has to be discovered and enabled/added/fixed. otherwise, there's just a fit. five letters of difference.

haven't seen a discovery reported here yet

Mr_Shiftright · November 2003

I don't think it's going to be an easy answer, because I'm under the impression that a number of circumstances have to occur simultaneously for this to happen. The right truck, the right fuel, the right driving conditions and perhaps even the right climate.

I'm sure it IS happening to those who complain, but how many and how often, who can say?

tacoviva · November 2003

If the designers of the vehicle can't figure this out, what makes you think we can?

Let's consider the fixes posted here....exhaust tip change.....different fuel....change of driving habit. They are all ineffective. I agree with shifty, this isn't a single condition causing this. As proof, Toyota doesn't even know. The people who know this vehicle more than any person in this forum, the designers, have yet to figure this one out.

As far as the concentrations not being dangerous, we can't really say they are or are not. No one has tested it so we really don't know.

Let's list what we do know.
1.) It's unpleasant to smell.
2.) It's irritating to the senses.
3.) Toyota refuses to take responsibility.
4.) Toyota has no idea of the root cause.

Unless you have the problem, I don't think you can criticize those who do for their actions.

In the end it was much easier to dump the thing and focus my energy on things that matter.

I bought the Toyota because of many reasons. One being that it's reliability and quality gives the owner more time to do things they enjoy and not have to worry about automobile related problems. That's not the case here.

When Toyota recalls this thing and replaces the exhaust (like Mazda) it will be fixed. In the mean time, I'll be spending quality time with my family, instead of hanging out in my garage trying to figure out why my car stinks. Mine is gone and I couldn't be happier.

toyboxx · November 2003

Can I ask what you bought to replace your smelly 4Runner?

sacstate1 · November 2003

Instead of spending time with your family your here continuing to discuss this moot issue.

hnavarr · November 2003

I believe "tacoviva" is actually Mr. Goodwrench.
Need to up the incentives??

There are MANY satisfied 4runner owners here in Santa Barbara. The smell is uncommon and the smell may depend on fuel, climate, driving conditions and individuals with a K9 sense of smell. (case closed)

Do you guys find that the "delux" stereo system is not bad? I think it's a great stereo!

corancher · November 2003

It may be helpful if I make my point more plainly: I have yet to hear from anybody who gets the smell in the cabin frequently and who also has tried extending the exhaust tip a few inches to the rear or to the side.

IIRC, there were reports from people who had the Borla system (which exits to the side) that it fixed the problem. That's a clue, and suggests a fix that would be cheap and easy.

Tacoviva says "Unless you have the problem, I don't think you can criticize those who do for their actions." Well of course I can, and I am specifically criticizing a lack of action. People post messages here looking for help, and when a simple, cheap, reversible solution is suggested, the suggestion is ignored. Frustrating, no?

Heck, we haven't even heard (again, from folks who repeatedly get the smell inside the cabin) from people who have tried the suggestion to keep the air system on fresh instead of recirculate, and keep the fan on. (Indeed, if we are correct in our theorizing about how the smell is getting into the cabin, the frequently-used tactic of putting the HVAC system on recirculate may actually make the problem worse.) That proposed solution is FREE, and nobody has tried it and reported back. This is the sort of thing that got me theorizing that the smell was affecting mental processes as well.

While these suggestions would do nothing to reduce production of the sulfur compounds they might make the vehicles much nicer to use. We won't know until a few people try them and report back.

toyboxx, I think tacoviva's 4Runner was replaced with a Honda Accord. For more details search this board for tacoviva postings.

tacoviva · November 2003

Well the runner was for the wife and kid. I have a 95 Taco 4x4 (it doesn't smell) with loads of miles. The thinking was...when the runner was paid for I would get it and she gets another new one. I offroad and need something when the Taco wears out.

She now drives the 04 Accord EXVL ( it does not stink either). Now the "plan" is all screwed up. I'll have to get something else when this old Taco wears out.

Listen the 4Runner is a great vehicle, but it does have a problem and it's not that easy to fix or Toyota would've done it by now.

Sacstate, The kid is sleeping and the wife is at the gym. And, yes, even surfing this forum is better than goofing around with the 4Runner in the garage.

If the smell doesn't bother you, great! If you don't smell it, even better! I smelled it, couldn't stand it and sold the thing. I made almost all of the money back. It turned out to cost me about 250 a month to own it. Not bad. I'm lucky to get out of it really. If it's worth anything, none of the Toyota dealers would even evaluate it. They told me to sell it elsewhere and come back. Right.

Just curious, do you have the problem?

rcgator · November 2003

but I've been working with Toyota to try a couple of different things before we give that a go.

South East Toyota sent some bigwig engineer down to Miami to ride my Sequoia while I drove it to see if we could reproduce the problem. Easy enough. We got on the highway, gunned it a bit, and got a nice big wiff of rotten eggs (actually, the guys said he couldn't smell it because he doesn't have a very sharp sense of smell - you'd have to have NO sense of smell not to have smelled it, BTW, but fortunately, there was another Toyota employee in the car who said he could definitely smell it).

They changed an O2 sensor that was running a little lazy, though within technically acceptable parameters, and sealed a vent in the rear passenger side.

Well, it's still smelling, though less than before. I will now try the extension, but I wanted to have some history with Toyota, and some proof that I've been working with them to try to solve this issue, should it ever come down to my having to use the Lemon Law (if the tailpipe extension doesn't work, for instance). I can see that this would be an uphill battle because they've alread made it clear that they will do all they can for me, but if they can't fix it, they can't "reinvent (my) car."

I have noticed in some posts in this thread that people insist that this is an industry-wide issue and that all cars produce this smell. I really don't care abot the smell itself, IF it's on the outside of my vehice. It's the fact that the exhaust is getting INTO my car and my kids are breathing exhaust that worries me. Also, why exactly do these service departments think that handing you that TSB on the gasoline issue is going to make you feel any better?!? Is knowing that the smell is coming from the tailpiipe, and thus, that if I am smelling it inside, the exhaust fumes are coming into my car, supposed to make me feel better?!? I don't get it.

Anyway, corancher, I will now be proceeding to trying the tailpipe extension and will let you know if it works. Oh, and I don't like leaving my AC on fresh because I can't stand the smell of other cars' exhaust coming into my car (yes, I do have a near-canine sense of smell...chalk it up to being a woman and having been pregnant four times!).

Mr_Shiftright · November 2003

When you say "inside the car", do you mean with the windows open or shut?

If it's with the windows shut, I think it's Toyota's problem. If it's with the windows open, then this is more a problem of physics and I would tend not to blame the car.

I DID smell sulphur from a car today! Turned around and it was an....an....Acura MDX. Really stunk, too...and you're right...it had just come up a steep hill and parked.

swschrad · November 2003

or something like that.

had enough to turn my nose, but not enough to turn my lunch, from a focus pulling around a truck today on the way in.

it's pervasive, and EPA needs to get on the ball. let 'em go over to the SEC and see how to really kick [non-permissible content removed].

excuse me, I'm now laughing so hard I can't continue...................

lpm141 · November 2003

Any Attorney's out there? How can we get a class action law suit started? I am also worried about my childrens long term exposure to the sulfur fumes.

rcgator · November 2003

I mean with all the windows up. I never drive with my windows down; it's too hot here.

forestergump · November 2003

I recently was shopping for a new SUV and was pretty much set on the 4Runner (we already have an '02 Camry, which we love). Until I stumbled onto this thread and started doing some research about complaints here and ones filed with the NHTSB. I ended up purchasing a new non-Toyota SUV, and part of my decision was that I didn't want to take a chance getting stuck with a stinkmobile. I'm sorry about those of you who are stuck with ones. I'll point out that I have not detected a single bit of smell from my new non-Toyota SUV. My own opinion is that if I had been stuck with a "stinker," I'd put in the Borla exhaust system. Heck, not only do you solve the smell issue, but you add some additional horsepower as well. Just my two cents, and I wish you all the best on resolving the issue.

swschrad · November 2003

and Toyota will absolutely, totally clam up. you don't even want to raise the spectre until and unless you have trunks full of hard scientific evidence from multiple experts to back it up about what, how, why, where, under what circumstances, and in what types of vehicles.

postings to date on this thread indicate you do not have it.

as zeuslewis so often says, any semblance of cooperation ends when the lawyers start sending letters.

rcgator · November 2003

that very practiced puzzled look that every Toyota mechanic or rep. gives me when they tell me "this is the FIRST time we ever hear of this happening." It was the first time they ever heard of the smell getting into the cabin, it was the first time they ever heard of it happening at highway speeds, it was the first time they ever heard of it happening with the windows up and AC on recirc. According to them, my case is totally isolated. Funny how I seem to see so many people on the 'net with the same problem, yet Toyota has NEVER heard of it!

Yeah, and the dealership service departments can NEVER duplicate anything. I told them exactly what to do to reproduce the odor, and still they told me they could not duplicate it (and accused me of having dirty diapers in my car that were causing a "particular odor"...what utter BS!). Interesting that I was able to "duplicate" the odor doing exactly what I had told them to do to get it, but they were unable to do so.

I am just really fed up with Toyota!.

swschrad · November 2003

methinks it's just brain fade. we mustn't discriminate against those who can't stay in the "now." these "techs" obviously are differently-abled....

tacoviva · November 2003

For what it's worth, the last time I had them look at mine for this the service manager said "we'll look at it, but we'll just write problem not found at this time". They're just talking heads at this point so don't waste your time. If you really want to rid yourself of this problem, do as Mr. Gump and others have suggested and put a new exhaust system on it, or do as I did and sell it. You'll only raise your blood pressure dealing with the idiots at Toyota.

vaughn4 · November 2003

Well put!! Anyone reading this board take note, buying one of these stink bombs is a $30-$40K gamble. After the constant headaches, I traded mine in - Good riddance!!!

lpm141 · November 2003

There is many posts on this thread challenging other owners to find a fix. My question is why is it my resposability to find the fix. If I buy toaster for example and it does not work to the manufactures specs I just return it. I don't take it into my garage and put my engineer hat on. In theory I understand your complaint "take some action and do something!" Well I agree but I am no way qualified and feel that I should not be spending my free time on a 36k, 4500 mile defected product. Like stated in another post we are not Toyota engineers or in anyway qualified to come up with accurate fixes. When you go out to dinner and your food is cold you ask for another plate well if it comes back cold again you then want a refund. Why would you expect anything less for a 30-40k stink mobile? Let them fix their own problems! Secondly use lemon laws and other legal tactics to get real results.

user777 · November 2003

unlike your analogy to a cold dinner, you've already entered into a legal and binding agreement to pay for your vehicle, where in the case of the dinner, you can and should leave without paying (but politely after telling them why you're not paying for the meal which you can't eat).

it's not the same is it?

i must say i too am very curious that there are people on the forum actually trying to convince the owners reporting the problem, that they don't have a problem...

that boggles my mind.

some posters are trying to encourage those with the problem to ADD something to the pool of experience / knowledge on the issue.

corancher - i though you were doing pretty well with the encouragement and advice, till i think you went slightly off-course with the "affecting mental processes" comments. i don't think that will encourage these owners to action.

lpm141 - there is something very powerful about divide and conquer approach (several owners trying stuff), and also there is something very powerful about ruling out factors on your own...

i'd think you'd want to have something definitive to put in front of Toyota reps when they claim nothing's wrong. the argument that you shouldn't have to put on your engineer's hat...while somewhat valid - is not likely to get you further towards a solution unfortunately.

there comes a point where you really need to take some ownership in problem identification and logically try to break the problem down and reduce it or constrain it. then you'd hand it off to someone who will work with you on it.

if you can walk into a dealership and tell them you've done x,y,z to isolate the problem, and your observations can be correlated to system settings (like recirc on/off, AC on/off, windows up, tailgate correctly closed and a good seal, hard acceleration or constant speed, etc, then you're given the person doing the diagnostics something more to work with, and you're more likely to get some action / assistance on their part.

rcgator - i wonder if the employee who couldn't smell it was a smoker? the other one could. it should have been "game over" at that point. i mean, it was admitted you weren't imagining the condition. they did some stuff with an O2 sensor and a rear vent and it evidently mitigated the problem somewhat. for me - that removes any doubt (if there was any) your problem is imagined or "mental".

rcgator · November 2003

because you're right, user777, now they know I'm not just making this up. If this problem cannot be fixed (even if I have to fix it with a tailpipe extension), I expect them to buy it back from me or give me a new car. The problem is, I think, that they will argue that this is not a health of safety issue, and I don't have any data to prove them wrong.

By the way, those of you that "dumped" your cars, how'd you do it? This is a lease for us, and I can't imagine how we'd unload it without loosing major amounts of money!

tacoviva · November 2003

I agree, but they (toyota) are not going to bend. I've been through this already. I know your frustration and the only remedy is to sell it. If you fight and win, great. I was offered something close to what I paid. Listen, go to carmax and see what they'll give you for it. I think you'll be surprised.

lpm, I applaud your opinion. I too share it and agree that Toyota is on the hook to provide a car worth the 30+k we paid.

corancher · November 2003

rcgator thanks, you made my day. I look forward to hearing the results of your experiments and I very much appreciate the reports of what you've found so far. It's interesting to hear about the O2 sensor and the vent. The 4Runners (V6 anyway) actually have two heated O2 sensors, and one or two separate air/fuel ratio sensors, and I suspect the Sequoias are similar. All this mixture fiddling and sensing to improve emissions and reduce fuel burn may be tied up with the smell production problems.

I envy your fine sense of smell, as mine is not especially good (more typical for guys, I guess) and I imagine it's a blessing at most times except these. But even with my poorer sense of smell I can say that when the smell is bad, it is really bad.

lpm141 and user777, I appreciate your posts and explanation of your perspective on all this. My comments about the smell affecting mental processes were born of exasperation and the hope to provoke a reaction that would help explain why nobody has yet reported on experiments on exhaust tip extension or use of the fan and the *fresh* air setting. I can understand your reluctance to work to solve something that Toyota should be solving. For myself, I'd just say "oh well" and get on with trying fixes on my own, but I don't consider your position any less valid.

I share your frustration with Toyota and their dealers. It may be very difficult to prevent vehicles from ever producing the smell, but they should be able to fix the ones that do it frequently and excessively. There are (usually laptop-based) data recorders that plug into the vehicle OBD-II port and could be used to troubleshoot the problem by monitoring bunches of engine parameters for considerable periods of time to see what's different (and when it's different) about vehicles that produce the smell a lot. This may take some work on their part, but it's not rocket science, and I have to suspect that they've already done this sort of thing on one or more units that smell really frequently.

The same goes for the problem of getting the smell in the cabin. It could be that the 4Runners don't even produce the smell with any greater frequency than average, but the designers choose a poor combination of places for the exhaust and cabin air outlets and the sunroof drains.

rcgator, your status as a vehicle lessor may restrict what you can do on your own to lessen the problem. Adding a short exhaust extension via one of the $10 aftermarket tips that attaches with a setscrew should be no problem though. You can even take a screwdriver and remove it whenever you're taking the vehicle in to the dealer for work on this problem--this is a 2 minute operation.

Good luck to all of you and please let the rest of us know what you find.

rogers12 · November 2003

I have read alot of this thread, but not all. So forgive me if the following has been mentioned or shot down for a reason I don't understand.

If I understand the legalities of this issue, what needs to be proven is: with the windows up and the ventilation on, that exhaust is getting in the truck, smell or no smell owing to a design fault.

My suggestion to you owners is go to a hardware store and buy a battery-powered CO detector and put it in the cargo bay of the truck and maybe also one in the front of the vehicle's passenger compartment. If these frequently sound an alert, then it is possible that this would be sufficient evidence to support a lawsuit against Toyota (or other vehicle manufacturer for that matter) for inadequate engineering to prevent exhaust gasses from entering the passenger compartment.

Again sorry if this is a stupid or worn-out idea.

swschrad · November 2003

maybe two CO2 detectors would be a good idea... have a furnace guy verify their calibration with his pricier tool and put that in writing... put one in a competitive car, one in the stinkbomb, and tool down the highway. have somebody riding shotgun write the readings down every few minutes, or tape 'em both with VCRs with identical clocks in the same picture. take the results to arbitration.

user777 · November 2003

ok - i think we are on the same page - i know where you're comming from. thanks.

as to your first paragraph in your latest reply...

i personally wish i knew something about these emission control systems...

in an auto, can an O2 sensor going bad be indicative of conditions were the car is typically running excessively rich?

why did toyota replace the O2 sensor in rcgator's car? why did they go for that?

there was a post in one of the jetta quality problem forums i think where someone mentions the 02 sensor going bad, excessive unburnt fuel, bad coils (didn't think about that one), and the CAT convertor getting damaged.

i can't help but think there is a possible contributing root cause in incorrect fuel delivery/combustion in some of these cars; it would seem to fit with heavy acceleration observations for some, but for others, i imagine it could be something which happens under other scenarios too.

if i were an owner with this problem - besides the tailpipe extension and vent tests, i'd be doing some more research - maybe talking to and eliciting some expertise from knowlegeable people in the areas of emission controls and combustion.

regards.

Sulfur Smell from Toyota 4Runner

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