Sulfur Smell from Toyota 4Runner

sacstate1 · December 2003

http://www.hypertuned.com/product_info.php?products_id=921

$739

Goto yotatech.com and type in Borla exhaust under 'search', there are many members who have the set-up and again, the price I have seen posted ranged from $609 to $809.

tacoviva · December 2003

When it's all said and done, it'll be closer to 1k than 600.

I got 26k cash for mine and I didn't trade it. I paid 29k for it. I owned it for 1 year and I didn't have to pay for a new exhaust.

Look, it's a great vehicle but it does have a smelly problem that nobody, not even Toyota, can fix.

And that's the bottom line.

jjenkens · December 2003

Which dealership have you been dealing with in the DFW area? I live in Dallas and am about to buy a 2K4 V-8 4Runner Ltd. I've been reading posts on this board and others for about 9 months and am pretty confident with my decision to proceed. But extra info can always help. Thanks

toyboxx · December 2003

You lost all the tax money also, no? and then you paid taxes again on whatever you bought. Sounds like a lot of money to me.

tacoviva · December 2003

I would've paid that much tax money to fix the problem. Besides, I was fed up with Toyota and their CS.

tacoviva · December 2003

I bought mine at Toyota of Fort Worth. They have a great sales staff and good pricing, but aterrible Service department.

corancher · December 2003

tacoviva, I think this Borla "$1000 fix" you keep repeating (and then comparing to your purchase/selling price of your 4Runner) is a distortion of the situation, and a distraction. Anyone who took the time to read all the posts in this thread would see a number of important things about what's going on:

1. The Borla exhaust "fixes" the problem because it dumps the exhaust to the side of the vehicle (both sides, actually) and gets it away from the cabin exhaust vents that are close by, and are probably sucking in some exhaust smell when on recirculate. In terms of smell production, the Borla doesn't do anything to reduce it because it's bolted on *after* the catalytic converters which are producing it.

2. A cheap (less than $100 at a muffler shop) diversion of the existing exhaust tip to the side would have the same effect and should do as much as the Borla in terms of reducing smell inside the vehicle.

3. From reports here, only a small minority of 4Runners produce the smell frequently, and they're not the only vehicles that do so. For the 4Runners, it's mostly V8s that have the problem.

4. You said you'd try the cheap exhaust diversion, but instead decided that this problem was entirely Toyota's, and you would take no steps to experiment with a fix on your own. You tried to get Toyota to do something about it, but were unsuccessful and sold the vehicle. You did what you did as a matter of principle (as you saw it) and not because it was the easiest or cheapest fix.

I'm not saying you weren't treated badly by Toyota (and that they shouldn't be fixing this themselves), but don't think you've been fair in how you've represented this situation in recent posts.

By the way, the conditions here this morning were just right for showing a lot of visible steam from the exhausts of cold vehicles, and it demonstrated to me how much one's own exhaust "follows" vehicles around. It was certainly true of my 4Runner, but it was surprisingly similar with sedans I saw, too. Putting engine exhaust and cabin exhaust vents close together at the back of any vehicle seems like a bad idea, and I suspect you and I agree entirely here. I'm just trying to emphasize that an adequate fix for some 4Runners need not be a $1k expense.

Also by the way, taking only a $3k hit for 1 year of wear & tear & depreciation speaks really highly of the resale value of this vehicle.

sacstate1 · December 2003

$3,000 lost depreciation 4Runner
$1,300 TTL 4Runner
$1,300 new TTL Honda?
$3,000, or more, lost new vehicle depreciation Honda?

Taco, looks like you lost $8,600 by your frustration. Wish I had money to burn. What's a new exhaust in the scheme of things. Just visited my dealer this AM and noticed two new Runners and a Sequoia with the dual Borla.

Taco wrote, "I would've paid that much tax money to fix the problem."
Why didn't you? The Borla is, according to you $1,000, according to real world pricing it is $800. You lost that much on one trade/sell.

You confuse me, you say you would have fixed the problem, and when offered a solution, you refuse and continue to harp about Toyota. What makes you happy?

Mr_Shiftright · December 2003

Well let's not hound him. What's done is done and there's no going back.

tacoviva · December 2003

I'm happy with my Tacoma. I'm happy with my wife's Honda. I wasn't happy with the 4Runner.

You only lose when you sell; I haven't sold the Honda so it shouldn't be in the equation. If you invest you know this.

Besides, it's my wife's work vehicle so it doesn't matter.

Toyota should fix the problem, not me.

user777 · December 2003

FWIW: yesterday i noted a 4runner in the parking lot at work which had a side exhaust (the pipe leaving the muffler pointed to the side of the vehicle - not to the back and downward).

that side exit was further extended via a tailpipe extension [like the kind those pregnant roller-skate drivers (heh heh) use to make noise] which further sent the exhaust to the side...the ultimate exit appeared to me (looking from behind) a few inches beyond the farthest extent of the rear wheel and mud guard.

then this morning, while driving i saw a different 4runner with an extension (this wasn't like the previous type - it was almost the same OD as the tailpipe) but again to the side, but not to the same extent...it did not exit beyond the extent of the wheel and guard.

finally, when at work, i looked at another 4runner which had a side exhaust, which was pretty corroded by rust and ended like half-way across the rear wheel looking from behind.

these vehicles didn't look like new vehicles... all three of them appeared to be at least a year or more old, perhaps 3 years...

so i wonder did toyota change how the exhaust exited the muffler at the back of the car, or were these mods applied by their owners?

see i could be wrong about this, but i think i've recently seen a new 4runner (with temp tag) where the exit was down and not to the side.

if true, extension would not be a pretty proposition. wouldn't it be better (if you wanted to do it right) to have a muffler shop manufacture a muffler with an exit tube that goes off to the side of the car?

corancher · December 2003

user777, thanks for the observations and specifics. You spurred me to compare my vehicle and a recent one from the previous generation.

The previous generation 4Runner I checked had the outlet exiting the vehicle perhaps 12-18 inches ahead of the bumper and extending several inches outboard of the lower bodywork. The tip ended about 4 inches inboard of the wheel/mudguard/fender flare. That's about the same as the unmodified vehicle you saw and it matches what I've seen in the past, so that was probably standard.

The tip on the new 4Runner extends to within about an inch of the length of the bumper. It is well inboard of the lower part of the bodywork, but that bodywork tapers inward as it goes backward and downward, so there isn't a specific number to quote.

It is possible to estimate what you would do if you wanted to modify the current generation to match the last one, though. If you started turning the pipe just after it left that last bulge (silencer? extra muffler?) and turned it 45 degrees or more, you could exit approximately where the previous generation did. If you wanted to stay inboard of the bodywork (to prevent scrapes/burns and funny looks) you could extend the pipe 10 inches more to the side (from its current location) and it would stick out about like the previous generation (held back from the tire/mudguard/fender flare 4 inches). That would do the trick, and it wouldn't look any more funny than the previous generation did. There would be no need to modify anything but the short straight pipe that is the very end of the exhaust system.

Of course, you could always attach some huge-diamater chrome attention-getter if you felt the need!

swschrad · December 2003

you could also probably fit the previous years pipes and muffler to the 2003 and be done with it, yah?

derrickjones · December 2003

I appreciate the comments about attempting to have another muffler shop fix my 4runner, but there are issues in trying to do so. You can not simply put an elbow on it and divert it like the Borla does. The problem is the exhaust pipe is short after leaving the muffler, and suppossedly there is not enough room to "bend" it without it looking funny (all this according to Midas). I have been gone for a few days and just got a chance to catch up, I am totally confused why other people are annoyed at Taco's decision to sell. FACT: The truck has a problem. FACT: He gave Toyota more than a fair opportunity to fix it. FACT: They refused. Could he have come with some kind of fix on his own? Perhaps (I am trying to, but have not yet). At some point, your time becomes more valuable, so trying to assess his losses based purely on a financial model is inherently incorrect. The entire time (and even now) he owned it the only thing he has tried to do is educate other owners and potential owners.

I am open to new suggestions, has anyone who has the problem actually solved it, including the Borla solution?

corancher · December 2003

Had more of a chance to compare the side exit of the previous generation with the current ones today. If you put a 90 deg elbow just after the last "muffler" and carried the exhaust about 8 inches farther to the right side of the vehicle, you'd be a pretty close match to the previous generation (and probably to the Borla, from the pictures I've seen). This would be no more unsightly than the previous generation, and nobody has complained about the looks of those.

Looking at that older vehicle, it seemed that they were taking some pains to get the exhaust out into the flowing air at the side of the vehicle. Not sure why they changed their approach, as the new version is only slightly more unobtrusive.

derrickjones, I have no problem with tacoviva's decision to sell, or the principled stand he took. You've probably read my respectful comments on that stand in this thread, though it was not one I would have taken. My only annoyance was with his (and others') statements that they would take action on the advice they asked for here, and not following through. In your posts you've made some comments that hint that you're a lawyer or have ready (inexpensive?) access to one, so perhaps the lawsuit approach would be cost effective for you. For the rest of us, it just seems simpler and less expensive to try (even temporarily) diverting the exhaust outlet. Heck, even the Borla system installed would be less than the hit on an early trade, or the simplest lawsuit.

swschrad, I wish you could use exhaust parts from the previous generation, but I think they're just too different. You'd probably have to start with cutting that last little muffler off entirely.

highlander7 · December 2003

Replying to post #551 by mylasttoyota Dec 01, 2003 (10:20 am)

mylasttoyota, You responded to me on post #551 with these comments: >>>>>>'Your "informal" survey was extremely useful. Thanks for the help, pal. I now realize that everyone, except for people you talk to, is making up a fictitious problem. Toyota even issued a TSB for the made-up problem. Aren't you waiting for your new highlander to arrive? I have tried low sulfur, re formulated gas, every brand, every grade and they all stink.'<<<<<

..................................................

You are very welcome! I am very pleased that my "informal" survey was extremely useful to you and others. Now that I have taken delivery on my 04 Limited, I will continue this survey adding my trucks results to my data. Since Wednesday I have driven 200 miles and no smell yet. Maybe my first tankful had low sulfur grade gas, or perhaps mine that was made 10/03 does not have the problem.

When does the odor begin? Will I be o.k. for a few thousand miles then have the problem? What do I look for? Probably over 99% of the new 4Runner's owners never experienced this sulfur odor. If they had and complained to Toyota, it would have been fixed. Toyota fixes their problems, they are not like Ford. My experience with Ford is that they could care less about their customers!!!

Looks like a very small percentage of 4Runners is have this problem and you unfortunatly had one.

I should change my user name to (NeverBuyAFordAgain) Ford, GM and Chrysler does not have a product anywhere close to the quality and reliability of the 4Runner and doubt they ever will. You should have considered installing the Borla. The money you would have saved in agrravation, trade value lost and legal fees for starters. Wish you well with your new purchase.

You did bring up an interesting point, the possibility that some folks may be making up a fictitious problem. This is a possibility, particularly with people that dislike Toyota's. I don't believe you have a problem with Toyota products, just had a bad experience with a 4Runner. Others on this forum have had no problems at all with the 4th generation Runner. And I am yet to find a person that has this sulfur odor concern.

Imagine if you had bought a 2004 Ford Exploder and for a reason like the transmission kept breaking every 7000 miles or you were receiving weekly recall notices so you decided to unload it. Then on your trade you were offered 50% of what you paid. This is for a three month old truck, imagine if it was a year old. (That is not made up, Ford's depreciate more in a week than a Toyota does in a year.) So be thankful you had bought a 4Runner.

I'm sure that there are loyal Toyota owners that dislike Ford, GM and DaimlerChrysler products for reasons like engine's blowing up after 3000 miles and early transmission failures and poor dealer service. Of course, some people find this acceptable.

Check back from time to time, maybe the data from my ongoing survey will convince you to purchase a 4Runner in the near future. That is if you want a real truck!

I took delivery on my Limited V8 AWD Wednesday afternoon. Amazing SUV, I will recommend it to anyone.

Good luck with your new purchase and look forward to your reply.

Highlander7

aka NeverBuyAFordAgain

alfster1 · December 2003

"I should change my user name to (NeverBuyAFordAgain) Ford, GM and Chrysler does not have a product anywhere close to the quality and reliability of the 4Runner and doubt they ever will. "

Congrats on the 04 4Runner purchase. I have a V8 Limited (03) myself and no sulfur problem here. Maybe you should change your name to 4Runner7?

highlander7 · December 2003

alfster1,

Thank you.

When I decided to trade my former car in on a Highlander late summer, early fall in 2001, I began looking at 4Runners. At that time I had chosen the user name Highlander7 expecting to be spending some time on Highlander forums. Then in November of 2001 I found a 02 4Runner 4x4 Sport Edition in Thunder Cloud Metallic. What a truck, it has been the best vehicle I had ever owned. After driving my new 04 Limited in 4" of snow and ice this morning, all I can say is WOW, this AWD is excellent. The GPS, suspension, the very logical controls, the power of this V8 and much more. My wife really likes the back-up camera. This hand down from Lexus will eventually be a safety item on many cars. I know my new Runner will exceed my expectations just like my 02 did.

Yes I should change to 4Runner7, then I will not get comments like..>When you going to buy your Highlander?<

Its unfortunate that a very few folks did not try a fix. If this (odor)is the only problem and the solution would be the Borla, modified side exhaust or change to a low sulfur burning fuel then I do not understand why they would let such an excellent vehicle go. I test drove and compared much of the competition and other then the MDX which is not as rugged as the Runner, nothing else came close. Just cannot please everyone.

Again appreciate you congrats. I look forward to many years of satisfied ownership.

....Bob

alfster1 · December 2003

"Yes I should change to 4Runner7, then I will not get comments like..>When you going to buy your Highlander?<"

Unless you are THE Highlander....There can only be ONE.

I am waiting for the snow myself to fall later today so I can do a little driving in it. Bonsai!

rogers12 · December 2003

"Its unfortunate that a very few folks did not try a fix. If this (odor)is the only problem and the solution would be the Borla, modified side exhaust or change to a low sulfur burning fuel then I do not understand why they would let such an excellent vehicle go."

Why not try and fix the problem...? I suspect that many people do not modify their vehicles under any circumstances. The Borla exhaust is not a sure thing and is thus too expensive to try on a whim. Also, that and the side-routed exhaust really do not fix the problem, only cures one of the symptoms, that is smell in the cabin (maybe).

Also, none of these fixes are a sure cure for this problem. Low-sulfur fuel is not available everywhere and it doesn't seem to always fix the problem. Maybe you need to burn off the sulfur in the CC and then no more will accumulate. I don't know, and I doubt anyone does.

I don't have a 4th gen. 4Runner, but if I had this problem, I am not sure what route I would take. I have low-sulfur fuel available so I would try that for a month or two and hope that solves the problem. I doubt I would go to an aftermarket exhaust system until the one that came with the vehicle rusted out and needed to be replaced. It is difficult to justify replacing a perfectly good part with another that may or may not have a benefit. The side routed exhaust may be impractical or cause some problem no one has forseen.

JMHO

highlander7 · December 2003

I had to put my HVAC system on recirculate while following a Dorango (sp.?) this afternoon. It was the sulfur smell and it was not coming from my new 4Runner. I pulled over and checked, mine does not have this problem. I'm sure Toyota is not alone with this issue.

I do agree with you that it is difficult and not totally reasonable to justify replacing a perfectly good part with another that may or may not have a benefit. I will install the Borla for the performance. I may even purchase the TRD supercharger next year. Both these options are not for everyone, neither will void any Toyota warranties. Many dealers and some Toyota ports are installing the same Borla system as part of the MSRP so I am satisfied this will not cause additional problems.

I really believe that very few people have this odor problem with the 4Runner and other Toyota vehicles. It is no doubt a problem that may be caused by fuel or other unknown at this time.

derrickjones · December 2003

I surveyed a bunch of people today, none of them have seen Mars. Must not exist.

Corancher, you have remained consisent on your advice and your recommendations, and I sincerly appreciate them. For me, and everyone's situation is different, the lawsuit approach is definitly easiest (also a higher percentage win than trying to get them to buyback in a Lemon Law process). What I am trying to do however, is find a solution that works. That helps identify one component of actual damage.

alcan · December 2003

I don't usually post in discussion forums, but after reading posts from those who are determined to drive with the rear window open, I thought I'd post this from a newer GM owner's manual:

Document ID# 889749
2003 Chevrolet Blazer - 2WD

Rear Window

Caution
It can be dangerous to drive with the rear window or endgate open because carbon monoxide (CO) gas can come into your vehicle. You can not see or smell CO. It can cause unconsciousness and even death. If you must drive with the trunk lid open or if electrical wiring or other cable connections must pass through the seal between the body and the rear window or endgate:

Make sure all other windows are shut.
Turn the fan on your heating or cooling system to its highest speed and select the control setting that will force outside air into your vehicle. See Climate Control System .
If you have air outlets on or under the instrument panel, open them all the way.
See Engine Exhaust .

driftracer · December 2003

I don't know where anyone could EVER assume it's safe to drive with your rear window or hatch open. That cool roll-down window is there for loading stuff in the back - period.

xjeepster · December 2003

I did not notice any sulfur odors when I drove an '04 Limited V8. However, While I wait to find out if my soon-to-arrive '04 Limited V6 has the sulfur problem, I thought I'd share some unscientific polling results from owners of '03 4Runners in Northern Virginia:

1) 0 of 1 '03 V-6 any model owners report the problem at 3000 miles
2) 2 of 5 '03 V-8 Limited owners notice the sulfur odor when rapidly accelerating with moonroof open.

These are pre-June V-8 owners who previously drove "sporty" Toyota ULEV and other non-ULEV cars, admit having lead feet on the accelerator pedal, and love the feel of their neck snapping back when they pull away from the rest of traffic. They also exclusively use 87 octane fuels, do not allow their engines to "warm up" before heading into traffic, tend to drive highway commutes, and have no idea what an exhaust modification would do for their problem. One of 2 is a former '90s 4Runner owner and did not note this odor or the apparent differences in exhaust profile.

Based on the experiences of others on here, the sulfur issue does not appear to be region specific. The common factors from my polling appear to be the V-8 using 87 octane gas (since Day 1) operated by drivers who are heavy on the gas pedal and immediately leave the driveway to merge into rush hour traffic. Also appears to be some variable distance/time elapse before they initially noticed. And no, these are not "picky" or "sensitive" or highly suggestive people, one of them being a motorcycle junkie.

One of the more technical ideas I noted on here is that the removal of other pollutants by the ULEV design itself, soon to be very common to many manufacturers per EPA guidelines/federal law, may make the sulfur odor more pronounced due to the unavailability of heavy molecules for bonding. I suppose this is good for the ozone layer but may not be ideal for human sense of smell, particularly if the oil companies are not adjusting accordingly. Also, the presence of the sulfur odor may not necessarily mean the "more dangerous" or toxic chemicals are entering the vehicle, per the hypothetical pollution removal process noted earlier.

The government engineer in me plans to initially operate my soon-to-arrive '04 Limited V6 per Toyota guidelines:
- Use Premium fuels
- Avoid hard acceleration
- Wait for engine to warm up
- Open moonroof and rear windows only in park
Of course, my usual GenX driving habits will eventually return, but I will report what fuels/oils, brands, conditions, window/moonroof settings, etc. appeared to be involved if the problem develops. And then there's the Virginia emissions test I will scrutinize in 1 year.

The hardest problems to diagnose are the "difficult to replicate" gremlins. But as a current and former driver/owner of LEV and ULEV designs, the "we have no idea" corporate answer is unacceptable. And based on my limited analysis of publicly available owners' experiences, this issue warrants at least a non-form letter, personal response from the manufacturer to address an apparent quality control and potential ULEV engine/cat converter/exhaust design problem primarily affecting the V-8, which is used in other Toyota product lines. Although most of us would seek alternative, relatively more efficient solutions than the legal process, I don't think it's unreasonable that a buyer deserves to be informed before making a $40k purchase.

ddw5 · December 2003

I have been reading this post for months. Let me first say I have an 03 V-6 and have experienced the sulfer issue a few time, always with the window open (I know, I shouldn't drive with it open). That said, I have my own 2 cents on a few things:

1) A post a while back linked to an article detailing why some new cars have this problem. I am paraphrasing here, but it stated how newer catalysts do not use or have a lower use of nickel in them that directly leads to the sulfer emissions detailed on this board. The point is it is not exclusive to the 4runner.

2) It seems clear the emissions can enter through the open tailgate window. Even a casual knowledge of aerodynamics should let one understand how this happens.

3) In the 4 runners with closed tailgate windows it seems it enters through the cabin vents inside the rear wheel wells.

4) As not all 4 runners experience this, it suggests to me that on some 4 runners these vents are faulty and work both ways. Specifically, they vent air out of the cabin to equalize pressure and allow outside air to travel into the cabin. Sometimes this air is contaminated with exhaust.

That said, it seems to me those 4runners ought to have the cabin vents replaced. This board has been very useful in diagnosing the various symptoms and probable causes but has yet to lead someone to a cure. As stated earlier, I don't have the problem with the tailgate window closed so I am not a candidate for any solution. However after months of reading this board it seems the problem has been diagnosed and sourced (despite the best efforts of some dealers), and to me the solution is replacing the vents inside the rear wheel wells. Granted I am assuming this is possible and relatively easy. Any thoughts.?

lpm141 · December 2003

I though I would update my current sulfur experience with my 03 v8 4runner. The vehicle has about 7500 miles on it currently and at this point it has been at least 1500 miles or more with sulfur free driving. I have no idea and I can not add any input with gas or any current driving changes. I will of course keep my nose on alert but so far so good. I have never driven that many miles and not had multiple experiences of some sulfur smell. So I feel it is defientily different at this point. It might be less occurrences or problem has been corrected. I will keep everyone posted either way it goes.

sacstate1 · December 2003

Volvo...hmmmm

Exhaust smell by ling4u Dec 07, 2003 (12:58 pm)
My XC90 has an intemittent exhaust smell in the interior when @ a stop sigh. No other cars around. If I place AC on recirculate, no smell. Dealer can't find the problem. Any thoughts?

driftracer · December 2003

capable of producing this sulphur-like smell. I don't know how many times I can say this...

highlander7 · December 2003

Pick up my Borla Split Side (dual)Cat Back exhaust system, part# 140036 tomorrow afternoon.
Plan on installing Friday morning. Paid $760.00 at a local performance shop.

Finally found a person with a new 4Runner that gets a slight sulpur odor after accelerating hard then coming to a stop. Only happens with windows open, said she never noticed this with windows up. She traded her 01 Pathfinder because she wanted another Toyota. Prior to the Nissan she had a Land Cruiser. Mentioned that the Pathfinder was much worse on exhaust odor than her 03 V8 Sport Runner, but still was disappointed her new truck had this occasional problem. Her overall 4Runner driving experience was so satisfactory that this one problem does not concern her. After all, another make was worse so she unfortunately accepts this as normal.

Just guessing that many people possibly never lower their windows and if the rear vents are working properly, they may never have an odor issue.
(See post #156 by corancher. Very informative, believe he found the problem.)
The folks that are getting this sulpur odor into their cabin have a problem that Toyota needs to correct.

Mine is probably too new (6 days old) to create this odor and after I install the Borla may never get a chance to experience it. At this time I will use a low sulfur grade fuel rather than take a chance.

This is an amazing truck. The navigation system is awesome, very easy to use. And the features in this Limited really impress my wife, she does not miss my 02 Runner.

driftracer · December 2003

why is it that a $600-1000 Borla system is the only choice? ANY muffler shop can install a performance moffler and custom bend pipe - doing the whole job for $100-125.

If you guys are stuck on Borla because you want a stainless system on a vehicle you're only keeping for 3-5 years, or you like the status-symbol effect of having a $1000 exhaust system, I feel sorry for you.

Do your homework, be smart consumers, and save that money for something useful.

toyboxx · December 2003

Your Toyota comes stock with a stainless exhaust system. If I was going to "upgrade" my exhaust I wouldn't put something of lesser quality/durability on to replace it.

People mod their vehicles for alot of reasons with their own disposable income. Besides the borla does add some horsepower and has a nice sound to it.

BTW is everything you spend your money on useful?

driftracer · December 2003

I spend money on is useful, with a few toys added for good measure.

A good performance muffler like Flowmaster, Dynomax or others, with a well-bent and installed pipe (yes, muffler shops work in stainless, too), would produce the same or better power as a Borla system for $500-800 less.

toyboxx · December 2003

we all have our toys.

While there may be a price difference yours is exaggerated.

For the most part....you get what you pay for.

driftracer · December 2003

I race autocross. I like car modifications that produce power. I know three very good local muffler shops that use stainless consistently. One specifically has done my three cars and many more owned by others in my club.

Their work is perfect. My car was done (cat back) for $180. My son's (shorter exhaust system, it's an MR2) was done for $120.

I've compared bolt-on systems like Borla, Flowmaster, etc, and have found that a good private shop does as good or better (workmanship) and can do whatever you want, as long as it's legal.

The price differential is very real - spend your money however you like. It's yours to spend and we live in America. I was trying to help based on my experience. I'm sorry you can't see that.

toyboxx · December 2003

I CAN see you were trying to help and your suggestions are valid alternatives.

Not everyone knows a good shop and it takes time and experimentation to find a good one. And if after experimentation and or luck you find a good shop their prices may be higher than what you are paying.

I just don't think it is a 'cut and dry' waste of money as I think you have portrayed it

And my priorities are probably different so I spend my money differently.

Just another piece to the picture, not an attack.

driftracer · December 2003

but it's easy to contact your local SCCA chapter and get referrals for automotive shops - easy as it gets.

There's no secrets - the guys with SCCA, like me, work on their cars a lot, and use a good shop for something that's over our head or we don't have the equipment/lift to do the job.

toyboxx · December 2003

That is a great suggestion to get referals. I'm not in the SCCA ...yet so I didn't think of it.

I do most of the work on my cars but do occasionally need some help so that will be a good resource.

driftracer · December 2003

of those "community service" kind of guys - lots of charity work and public events.

You can look up websites by just using "SCCA" and your local city...let me know if you need some help and I can look in my directory (for a chapter in your area).

toyboxx · December 2003

Thanks. I am going to do a search but I'm getting into rally racing and I'm in the Philadelphia area.

driftracer · December 2003

it's the Philly region SCCA site - I'm in that area, too.

highlander7 · December 2003

driftracer,

Why some of us spend $600-1000 is because of recommendations on this forum and other research. I asked my brother-in-law why he had Borla installed on his Viper, he said because it was the best available exhaust system and would give him a little more HP. (and money for him was no object!!) I know there are other systems available, was not aware that independent shops could do the same service for $500-$800. less, that is substantial savings. If they can do a complete cat back dual system for $180, than they could probably put on a pipe from the existing muffler and give you a nice stainless side port exhaust tip for about $45.00. This may be the answer many folks are looking for, going to their local muffler or performance shop and having this service may help to eliminate the sulpur odor problem.

I am not buying Borla for status. I checked with two Toyota service departments about warranty concerns for installing this aftermarket system on my new Runner. One service advisor actually preferred the Borla over TRD, both said the Borla was what Toyota would recommend until TRD was available. Southeast Toyota region sells Borla and list on MSRP on some new vehicles. A reason why some folks may not go to the local muffler shop is after spending between $30,000 - $43,000. on a new truck, they just do not want to take a chance of voiding any warranties. Borla is a system they know will work well and they feel satisfied they are getting value, I know I am.

Its a trust thing, Borla has a reputation and I agree, you pay for it. This is marketing, you pay for all that advertising. In the end you get what you pay for.

Very good post driftracer, if I had the experience with the shops that you have, maybe would have done the same thing. Your advise may save some folks alot of money. thanks..

Other news.....
TRD this week sent a memo to their Toyota service departments advising that a cat back dual system is now available for the 4Runner, list $899.00

driftracer · December 2003

That's good. Many folks don't want to deal with muffler shops because of the scams that places like Midas and Meineke have been know to pull.

I deal with independents only - just my personal choice.

I'm looking forward to hearing a V8 4Runner with dual Flowmasters - that'll be a cool sound.

sacstate1 · December 2003

The TRD system is made by...drum roll....Borla!

You can order the Borla from SE Toyota as option # DE10.

sunking9 · December 2003

Unfortunately, I too have a 4Runner with exhaust fumes in the cabin. I have read all 600 posts on the subject on this bulletin board. I wish I had read them prior to paying the $36K entrance fee to "Gas Your Family, Presented by TOYOTA USA".

I see some of you have experimented with taping the rear vents shut with successful results.

I am looking at the back of my runner but don't see the vent exits. Can someone help me locate them?

corancher · December 2003

sunking9, the vents are buried in the rear corner bodywork. Apparently you can't see them without taking off some pieces. This was described a month or two ago in this thread, though I don't rember the specific post # or date.

Taping the vents shut is a possibility, but seems sub-optimal to me. Have you considered exhaust diversion or using the fresh air setting?

highlander7 · December 2003

........go back to post #156 by corancher. It is a start, there may be other posts.

sunking9 · December 2003

Thanks... The location is described by flrunner in post #462. I checked the runner and I think the post is fairly accurate.

The problem is that I'm kinda scared of removing parts that I'm not sure will be easily replaceable. Screws are easy to remove/replace, but the Tabs that hold the plastic pieces together are little more difficult.

Anyway, I'm going to take it to the dealer and let them look at the vents. Also, I'm going to talk to someone at the dealer about cutting me a break on the cost of the Borla cat-backs.

I'll let you know how it goes.

sunking9 · December 2003

Also, corancher in post #156 is helpful.

Both are correct about the difference between fresh and recirc modes.

While I was looking for the rear exit vents, I had the runner idling in the driveway for about 30 minutes. I had inadvertently left the mode on recirc.

I was having a problem finding the flow of cold air at the rear of the truck as described. I went back inside to look at the ac settings and just about choked on the fumes in the cabin.

I reset the mode to fresh air and went back to hunting. Unfortunately, this is the one week in Florida where the outside air temp is about equal to the ac temp, but I did feel air currents coming from the rear wheel area as described.

I played around trying to determine if I could remove pieces of the bumper by myself and kept the truck running. I decided not to play with the body panels and went to turn the truck off. THE INTERIOR WAS NOTICEABLY LESS FUME RIDDEN.

I am encouraged by the progress that the end-users have described in remedying this problem on this forum. Too bad Toyota can't work the problem a little more efficiently.

sunking9 · December 2003

I was at the dealership all day today...

Talked to the lead mechanic, he said Toyota knows about the exhaust in the cabin problem, but doesn't have a solution yet. He still wrote "Cannot Duplicate" on the paperwork.

I paid $850 for the Borla exhaust. It sounds goofy on the my V6, doesn't appear to increase performance and, worse of all, does not get rid of the exhaust inside.

Anyone want some slightly used Borlas cheap?

Sulfur Smell from Toyota 4Runner

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