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2013 and earlier-Subaru Forester Prices Paid and Buying Experience

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Comments

  • shears4meshears4me Member Posts: 1
    Can you tell me a little more about that " no tax in Oregon " part ?? Is there a residency requirement to purchase ?? Please, please let me know. I just stumbled upon this " Forum " while researching on Edmunds.com.
    Thank you sooo much !!
  • wantanewcarwantanewcar Member Posts: 7
    shears4me, it doesn't matter what state you buy a vehicle in; you pay the taxes from the state you live. So if you currently don't live in Oregon and don't plan on moving there, then, unfortunately, the "no tax in Oregon" isn't applicable to you. Some people are lucky with this; I'm not one of them. :(
  • p0926p0926 Member Posts: 4,423
    $23k seems a bit high (are there any options installed) but I doubt you're going to find a dealer willing to take that $20k offer. If it was me, I'd be shooting for something around $22k.

    -Frank
  • susanw2susanw2 Member Posts: 2
    FYI -questions about whether Subaru is extending the rebates - looks like a manufacturer -to-customer rebate of $1500 is in effect until June 1 for X and XS, $2000 for XT.
  • gompsgomps Member Posts: 5
    Did you mean that the $23K included the rebate? If so that sounds good, $417 over invoice right? How did it turn out?
    I am in San Diego and just starting to talk with dealers. So far I got a quote way over MSRP and someone ignoring what I asked for (a quote for the XT man. and XT automatic) and quoting me for a fully loaded XT automatic premium package.
    I'm wondering if the dealers will quote high because thay figure the buyer is in danger of losing the rebate on June 2nd?
    I'll keep you updated...
  • gompsgomps Member Posts: 5
    I am in San Diego. I am getting quotes like this;

    XT man with rear bumper cover, splash guards, cargo tray & auto dimming mirror/ compass with homelink and security system upgrade (I don't know how much these extras would add to it) for $23846 w. rebate.

    XT man no extras $23 990 w. rebate.

    XT auto PP includes cargo tray, bumper cover, splash
    guards, auto dimming mirror/compass , securtiy system upgrade for $25477 w. rebate.

    XT auto PP no extras $25490 w. rebate

    All these quotes include the rebate so they all seem a high to me.

    Also, does anyone know what a fleet discount (when dealing with the fleet manager through a credit union) would normally be? These quotes have that discount.

    I get the feeling that the rebate is meaningless here. The dealer just quotes what they want to get after the rebate.
  • suburbanite1suburbanite1 Member Posts: 3
    We are buying one tomorrow in Houston. Price agreed: 19620 + TTL.
  • bluewolfbluewolf Member Posts: 101
    When does the facelifted '06 Forester get here?

    Anybody know if rebates got better for June? I'd think with the '06's arriving they'd need to clear out the existing body style Foresters...
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Probably in about a month. I got to drive one and was impressed, NVH control is even better.

    05s are already a bargain and I'm cheap so I'd buy now. ;)

    -juice
  • fred25fred25 Member Posts: 92
    From June 1, 2005 to August 31, 2005, the New York State Sales tax rate has decreased by 1/4 %. From 8.625 to 8.375 for Autos. :)

    Check it out.

    Fred
  • njswamplandsnjswamplands Member Posts: 1,760
  • jdhuckjdhuck Member Posts: 7
    Perhaps someone has some insight in dealing with this.

    I have a 2005 Subaru Forester XT with AT. The dealer sold me the leather package for $980 dollars. I asked at time of purchase whether or not this would keep the side airbags from deploying and the answer from the dealership was "No, of course not."
    After reading the owners manual it says to never place anything over the side airbags. I looked closely at my seats and I was amazed at what I found. First of all there is no badging for the Side Airbags. Secondly the Leather Seats are ZIP ON seat covers (Is this standard practice?). There is no way for the airbag to deploy. I could remove the seat covers in about two minutes if I tried. The old cloth underneath has been removed from the seat back.
    Has anyone ever heard of this? Subaru told me that (I called the Customer Support line) if it does not have the SRS Badging, then it isn't their product and they view it as an aftermarket product and this would void my warranty if anything happened to the SRS system. Furthermore I was told that if I were in a wreck and the Side airbags did not deploy, then they could not be held responsible. I

    Thoughts, Ideas or insight?

    Much Appreciated<

    Jdhuck
  • jdhuckjdhuck Member Posts: 7
    One other thing:

    Where is the Subwoofer in the XT? I can not find it anywhere? It is not under the seats or anywhere else that I can find. I used to install stereos and speakers so I usually have a good grasp on these things.

    Thanks....

    BTW, I got my car at Royal Subaru in Deacatur, GA.
    I got a great deal at $21,000 + 980 for the leather seats.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Katskins has an SRS logo, and it's certainly not zippered on.

    I would ask the dealer that question, and if they can't answer go directly to the upholstery shop that installed it (or the dealer tech that did).

    Does sound strange to me.

    -juice
  • jdhuckjdhuck Member Posts: 7
    Finally getting in touch with someone at the upholstery shop, I learn that it is Katzkin leather. Full warranty and everything that goes along with it. I spoke to the install guy and he said that all Katzkin uses zippers and it is stitched in as well, and if you want the logo you have to pay extra for the embroidery.

    If you go to autoleathers.com and select your leather and install place it is much cheaper than the dealership. Lesson learned on my part. $280 cheaper at autoleathers.com using the same install shop.

    Jdhuck
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    At least the dealer can act as a liason if you have problems. One would hope.

    -juice
  • jdhuckjdhuck Member Posts: 7
    The dealer was not helpful, they were very defensive. They did not want to give me the name of the Installer. However, I pursuaded them. I still can't find my sub-woofer though.

    Jdhuck
  • self_mechanicself_mechanic Member Posts: 95
    Usually, the OEM subwoofer is mounted under the passenger's seat.

    https://www.1stsubaruparts.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=22_26&products_id=369&osCsid- =03394cbc7dc329dc6d3127764de03f60

    Strangely, according to SUBARU web site, XT model does not have any sound accessories. Subwoofer is offered as an accessories in X and XS model.

    http://www.subaru.com/shop/accessories.jsp?year=2005&model=FORESTER&trim=25_XT&category=SO- UND

    The dealer might be charging you a subwoofer that is not there. Only the dealer will know. I would go back to dealer and ask where they install it if the subwoofer is part of the purchase.

    Alland
  • self_mechanicself_mechanic Member Posts: 95
    Correction. I did my research poorly. Subwoofer is a standard item for XT.

    http://www.subaru.com/shop/specifications.jsp?year=2005&model=FORESTER&trim=25_XT&category- =INTERIOR%20FEATURES

    Alland
  • subearusubearu Member Posts: 3,613
    The subwoofer is located in the driver side side storage bin in the hatch area in the F-XT, at least for '04.

    -Brian
  • 204meca204meca Member Posts: 369
    After 3 weeks reading Edmunds Forester posts (and others) way too many hours, waiting for information on the 06 Forester, watching the market in a 100 mile radius (for a similarly equipped used or discounted 05 model), and some hard nosed negotiations I drove home an 03 XS this afternoon. It has 23K miles, 5 spd, premium sound system, auto-dim mirror, rear bumper cover, chrome tail pipe extension, and factory tow package. It is well detailed & looks showroom new.

    The dealer (Skagit Subaru) was asking $21,000 (way too much since a new XS with rebate in that range or less -- but new XS with 5 suds are almost non-existent in the Seattle area). They had advertised the 03 one weekend as a special @ $17,999. Several on the Forester forum thought that was a little high. However, the NADA average retail price for this model in our area was $19,350 & Edmunds TMV was $19,007. Still I thought I would try for a better deal.

    I waited until the afternoon of the last day of the month. My 1st offer was $17,000, offering cash & reminding them that the car had been on the lot 3 months. Never even got a counter offer! :(

    A week later I again offered $17K, got another "No thanks". So I upped the ante to $17,303 (all over the phone). Then I got turned over to the "sales manager". When I reminded him that it was advertised for $17,999 & I thought they could do better since it had not sold in the 3 weeks since the add, He said they could not sell it for the previously advertised price ("it was expired!") and that I could have it for $18,500. After 2 minutes of painful phone silence I caved :cry: and said "I surely am not going to pay more than the advertised price, but I will pay the previously advertised price".

    I have never encountered such inflexibility on a price before -- must have had the "NO SWEAT, THIS GUY WANTS THIS CAR" look! The negotiations were always cordial, good natured, just inflexible!

    For me the search and negotiations are always a rush. Signing on the dotted line always gives me heartburn because I wonder, should I have waited longer, looked harder, gone for the new model..? All that said, I got it for more than a thou less than the average price in our area & believe I got a good price and great car. :) Lord willing it will tow my boat fine & last many a mile.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Look at the big picture, you got the car you wanted, and at least they didn't drive the price up.

    -juice
  • jdhuckjdhuck Member Posts: 7
    Are you sure that is the subwoofer?
    Mine looks like a 6X9.

    Thanks,

    Jdhuck
  • jdhuckjdhuck Member Posts: 7
    I am glad you got a great car. I can tell you what I do when buying a car, you may be able to use it in the future, or anyone else who reads this may benefit from this.

    I do use aggressive phone negotiations initially, but nothing beats getting into the showroom.

    After I pick out the car I want, I select a different car(that I really don't want) and tell them that this is the one I am considering. While the salesperson is talking with his or her manager, I get up and take a walk around the parking lot. This gives you a bit more control and there is no running back and forth with the salesperson and manager. Make the sales person find you. Leave something in the office so they know you haven't left.
    After all this is a game. I look at the numbers decrease everything by 8-10% and send the salesperson back to the manager. I get up again, and find someone with a telephone book. I call the nearest dealership to me besides the one I am at and tell them I am getting ready to buy a car and can they beat the deal. I usually like to do this at the receptionists desk so she can hear the whole thing. Usually they will say they can beat the price. I make the salesperson come and find me and I do not go back to their office... Yet.

    I ask about the numbers and try to talk in front of other customers, this may make the salesperson a bit nervous, to say the least it takes him or her out of their element.

    After I get what I think the best deal is on this car, I tell them I need a drink and ask them for some water. While they go get the water, I go out again to the car I really want and I ask another salesperson for a test drive. I tell them, I am working with XXXXX but I just saw this car and I think it is comparable. 9 times out of 10, the first salesperson comes outside and wants to know why I am not willing to commit to the other car. All I say is that I really want to drive this one instead. The whole test drive I talk about how much I like the other car and how nice it is. When I get back I ask them to run the comparison numbers. Usually they will not compare car to car on the same sheet of paper. Really ask for this. If you can get them to do this, I consider this a victory.
    From here on out I know that I have the ability to manipulate them.

    I did this last weekend for my wife to get a new car and I got her a non-Subaru (She just doesn't understand) for the Invoice price plus rebate.

    The downside is that this can take 4-5 hours. I figured that I saved about $3000 on her car. This doesn't always work. I have been asked to leave the dealership before. I usually go to the other dealership I called from the first one and try it there.

    I call this the "wear them down, be indecisive and manipulative" technique or WDIM for short.

    I hope someone can benefit from my technique.

    Jdhuck
  • 204meca204meca Member Posts: 369
    Huck: I had a similar experience after my 3rd test drive of an Elantra GT. They told me: "We have spent hours with you, let you drive the car about 300 miles (true - it was a demo model) so now you need to either buy the car today or leave & not come back".

    Actually I could not blame them -- I proably would have said something similar if I had been in their shoes. There does come a time when bargining came become petty & abusive & it is time to buy or leave, dealers can only give so much. It is not my goal to make enemies. I bought the car! I thought it was a great car & fantastic value, but later gave it to my son for a wedding present. :D
  • subearusubearu Member Posts: 3,613
    Yes, that is the subwoofer in the rear cargo on the driver side. It's not a big 8" woofer.

    -Brian
  • bluewolfbluewolf Member Posts: 101
    I was hoping with the facelifted Forester on the way soon that they'd be blowing out existing Foresters. But they haven't gotten any cheaper than last month and are actually $250 more than April when a 2.5X had a $1750 rebate.

    So has anyone done better than invoice minus rebate?
  • 204meca204meca Member Posts: 369
    After 2 weeks of shopping I can say that at least In the Pacific NW, it is pretty much invoice + rebate.

    If you are picky about color or equipment beware that the inventory is getting getting thin. This is especially true of the better equipped ones. There are very few XS still availble within 100 miles of Seattle, a few more XTs, and a fair number of X models.
  • jdhuckjdhuck Member Posts: 7
    A little better. I was told that the XT I bought had marketing dollars associated with it. They told me it was there draw car. They posted it everywhere at a low price to get customers in the showroom. When I got there of course they wanted to charge a bit more. However it was pretty easy to make them stick to the advertised price.
    The dealership had a new 2004 that was $500 more than the 2005 I bought. I almost bought the new 2004, but buying a car that has only been sitting for 1-2 years scared me.

    XT Auto for $21,000 + tax, tag and title. Then I added leather to it. This was five weeks ago.

    Jdhuck
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I think April was such a huge month for them that supplies dwindled a bit, that's why the rebate is slightly less.

    Prices are still lower than they were in 1998, when the Forester came out!

    -juice
  • 204meca204meca Member Posts: 369
    "Prices are still lower than they were in 1998, when the Forester came out! "
    Man, I would hate to be in any business today where the prices are lower than they were 7 years ago given the rising costs of labor, insurance, materials, energy...!

    Subie must have found a way to lower costs, or were making big bucks on the early models, or are losing money on every sale (or some combination of the above). Certainly the content & quality of the product has increased.

    How can they stay in business?

    Then again, this may be true of many car companies.
  • nswartzbnswartzb Member Posts: 40
    i just got a 5spd, crystal grey, 2005 XS w/moonroof, package 1, and all-weather mats for $23464 +TTL. that price was ~$200 below invoice, plus i got the $1500 rebate.
    i'm in the SF Bay area, and bought from Ron Price Subaru.
    the dealer said he was giving it to me for $500 below invoice, but he considered the $275 advertising fee as part of the invoice price, plus, when we got to the final signing with the F&I guy, there was a never-mentioned $45 document prep fee. at that point I wasn't going to quibble about the $45.
    to get that price, i called & emailed 3-4 dealers in the area, and did final negotiations by phone.
    except for the $45 doc fee, Ron Price was straight-forward and fair.

    NOTE: i also dealt with another dealer, Stevens Creek Subaru, who ultimately was going to give me the same car for $500 below invoice. in fact, the only reason i went to Stevens Creek was because they said they would beat the Ron Price Subaru price by $300. but by the time Stevens Creek was actually agreeing to give us the price they had promised, the manager was yelling at me and my fiancee saying that we knew we weren't being fair. i told them we didn't like being yelled at, and even though they were finally agreeing to give us the car for the price they had promised, i was going to take my business elsewhere. after that the sales person proceeded to call me "a piece of [non-permissible content removed]" and a "Jew-bag," and ultimately he assaulted me. i'll give a full account on another posting, after i write the dealer and Subaru North America, but suffice it to say that around here $200-400 below invoice is probably the best fair price you can expect. oh yeah, i don't recommend going to Stevens Creek Subaru.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    Ya' know all the dealers have to say is: "I won't/can't sell you the car at that price". End of story. I don't understand the duplicity involved here. It's okay for the dealer to try and extricate as much money from you as they can, but in turn when you negotiate some of it back....you're the bad guy. :mad:
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I recall back around 1998 they said a Grand Cherokee enjoyed a profit margin of something crazy like $8000 per unit.

    Not any more, the market is way more competitive. I've seen 4WD Laredos for $23k. They were probably $26k back then. That still leaves plenty of profit margin, though, even for entry-level ones.

    -juice
  • gengagenga Member Posts: 2
    Help! did I act too fast? I am not good at negotiating. I did my research and checked other dealers but I should have read all this before I went into local dealer for second time today. I was most concerned about the safety features and a few creature comforts. I signed on line to buy 2004 Forester XS Premium with leather in silver/gray. It has 21,000 miles on it is very clean and dealer with "certify" it, ie bring it up to standard, I asked about rotars and brakes and will check those are in good shape. Asking price was $22,200. I took it for test drive loved it! This is my first Subaru. I had checked Edmunds and Blue Book which give this much higher cost, also Intellichoice says price over $23K. According to dealer this has all the features I wanted except for power seats. Dealer quoted similar 2005 as over $25K. He offered this 2004 at $20,700 and I accepted. Any opinions if I should try to get better deal and opt for 2005 at end of June maybe near same price? I think law says I have three days to change my mind. Thought I would trade this 2004 Forester in two years for a 2006, but with NY tax at over $1600 I am thinking now better to just pay for newest model and keep for five years. Appreciate any feedback. Genga
  • mike75mike75 Member Posts: 2
    Hi all,

    First time buyer and first time poster. I'm looking at buying either a 2005 or 2006 Forester. The '05 seems like a fantastic deal at Invoice - $1500 rebate. I was wondering if you guys think the '06 is worth the extra cost (no rebate)? Also, do you think we will be able to get the '06 at invoice? Is the '05 only at invoice because it's being phased out? Thanks!
  • p0926p0926 Member Posts: 4,423
    Genga- Stop second-guessing yourself! Sure, few people want to readily part with $20k and everyone wants to feel like they got the best deal possible but it sounds like you did everything right. I.e. you checked several reliable sources and then negotiated a price substantially less than the book value.

    There a two truisms of car ownership and they are a: the moment you drive almost any vehicle off the lot it depreciates substantially and b: next year's model will always be nicer and better equipped. So you can either continue to drive a heap or hitchhike while always waiting for the perfect car and deal or you can find a car that will meet your needs and ideally make you happy and be satisfied that you got it for a good price :)

    -Frank
  • p0926p0926 Member Posts: 4,423
    New model year Foresters usually start out at several hundred over invoice with the first rebates appearing about halfway into the model year. If it wasn't for the rebate, I'd say get an 06 since the few extra hundred you'd pay will be offset by the slower depreciation. IMO Subaru only made modest changes for 06 but the decision is yours on whether those changes are worth $1500.

    -Frank
  • p0926p0926 Member Posts: 4,423
    Subie must have found a way to lower costs, or were making big bucks on the early models, or are losing money on every sale (or some combination of the above). Certainly the content & quality of the product has increased.

    How can they stay in business?

    Intense competition is doubtlessly squeezing the profit margins for almost all car companies but I'll hazard a guess and say that after being in production for eight years, Subaru has no doubt developed efficiencies in the production and assembly processes. Also, don't forget, the longer a vehicle is in production, the lower the development costs.

    -Frank
  • mike75mike75 Member Posts: 2
    Thanks for the information! I really do like the revised look and increased power of the '06 Forester, but I agree that the changes are pretty modest. I'm heading to the dealership tomorrow to see if we can hash out a deal for an '05.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Subaru announced pricing and the 2006 is about $500 higher than the 2005 was initially, so add a $1500 rebate and you'll see prices at least $2000 higher at first. Bargain hunters should get a 2005 while there is some selection.

    Genga: yours is pretty loaded up, I doubt you'll see a 2006 any where close to that in price. With that mileage it's barely broken in.

    Congrats.

    -juice
  • gengagenga Member Posts: 2
    Frank and juice, thanks for the encouragement but as much as I did the research I had missed the great rebates on 2005s this month. My brother in law thought he had heard of low prices on 2005 Subarus and made calls and discovered that for $3000 more I could get a 2005 LL Bean. I called the original dealer Monday morning explained this and asked what their prices were explaining that I was considering buying a new car instead of the 2004. Manager was too busy said
    he would call me back in half hour but never did until late day and I was out. Next morning I called and learned that their own real post-rebate price on new Forester was $24300, and not the 27,000 he had originally quoted me.
    I had been getting quotes as low as $23,100 on the LLBeans
    from other areas. But this dealer already had my deposit and I decided that I would just take the one for $20,500. But with 21,000 miles and not certified
    I wanted my mechanic to look it over. Dealer went bonkers and accused me of not trusting them and then said they had "bent over backwards" (never a good thing to hear from a sales person or an attorney) told me they had just changed the oil! and put in a new oil filter!....Heaven forbid I trust my own loyal mechanic over this dealer I had known for less than an hour heh? Anyway they got very unpleasant, the owner's daughter got on phone and told me I HAD to make a decision. I told her I had I wanted the car to be looked over by my mechanic. She agreed to it. They had already said two things to me that should have been large red flags the day I left deposit: manager said "you are getting great deal on this 2004 we are only making $100 over what we paid for the car"...and "Don't tell anyone what you paid for it" I laughed at the time and asked why not? I was told that it was "such a good deal" they didn't want people coming in expecting to do as well. Counter intuitive to me, good deals bring customers so I knew it was a sales line but didn't realize that they make more on a used car and wanted to get rid of this 2004. I cancelled order and got money back.

    I know I should have realized they had the bill of sale for the Brooklyn
    Bridge in their pocket for me but I was worn out. Buying a vehicle is very stressful and tiem consuming. I will be picking up a brand new 2005 LL Bean Forester tomorrow for $23,690 from dealer in Conn. I would not buy a postage stamp from the dealer of the preowned one. So for $2190 more than the 2004 XS Premium with 21K and only 16 months left on warranty, I have brand new LLB which has more features. I didn't bargain much, probably soemone could have done a few hundred better? But I am satisfied. I will post when I have the Forester. I just have to decide, crystal grey, green or white. Thanks all, Genga
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Sounds good to me. Those are very, very well equipped, too.

    -juice
  • sonycsonyc Member Posts: 9
    Hey all,
    I didn't know about this forum until after I bought my Forester yesterday!
    In any event, I paid 18995 + fluff stuff for a 2005 X Auto with no extra options. (NJ)
    Being a first time Subaru owner, I am not sure if this is a good price - I just hope it lives up to its rave reviews.

    Regards,
    Sony.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Great price for an auto, no doubt. Enjoy it and stick around.

    What color? Options?

    -juice
  • mactelmactel Member Posts: 6
    Hello all - - I was quoted 27800 for this auto? Does this sound like a good deal? I know, I could get a n 05 at a really-really-really good price, but my wife liked the 06 styling. Out the door cost including all taxes will put this puppy near 30K. This price seems high to me for this class of auto, am I just cheap(this is your invitation to bash me)? This auto does compete with the RAV and CRV, right?

    I was leaning more toward the toyota highlander but my wife really likes the Forester. My compromise is that we get the Turbo! I test drove the X with premium package, it seemed good enough in terms of power. The salesman claimed the car would have more power after it was broken in; truth or fiction? I'm hoping that the turbo model will provide more power without it having that harsh feeling I have heard about. I'll take the Turbo out for a test drive this weekend.

    Anyone else have the new 06 XT? Thoughts...
  • p0926p0926 Member Posts: 4,423
    That sounds like a pretty good price for a brand new loaded 06. And yes it is several thousand more than a top of the line CRV or RAV4 but then you get a lot more for you money :) The X has decent power and is more of a direct competitor with them. But once you test drive the XT there's no going back and performance wise, the CRV and RAV4 aren't even in the same class :shades:

    -Frank
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    You might have the first '06 on the block, and that is the price you'll pay to have the hot new model. 230hp is a number no competitor can touch. Factor in the equipment levels and the size of the moonroof and it's in a class by itself.

    If you can wait, prices will come down, but right now I think that's par for the course.

    -juice
  • sonycsonyc Member Posts: 9
    'Juice',

    Its the base car in the grey color. They had one silver XT and a couple of red Xs. The inventory on the 2005s seem to be paltry at this time of the year.
    Being my first Subaru, my only concern is the reliability/longevity. I've always had Hondas in the past with excellent results - just routine maintenance pretty much guarantees reliability and longevity.
    thanks for your kind words.

    Regards,
    Sony.
  • duke79duke79 Member Posts: 7
    I'm getting ready to purchase a 2005 Forester XT this week. The current rebate on the 2005 XT is $1,750 (down from $2000 in May). What do you think will happen in July? Should I wait till Friday (July 1) and take a chance the rebate will be increased to try and move the XT models off the lot? Or just bite the bullet and buy the Forester with the $1,750 rebate.

    BTW: The kids just graduated from college so in April we purchased a 2005 Forester XS for my wife to drive. We are very satisfied with the XS and would probably get another except the only ones in our area have a sunroof ... and I'm tall enough that my head rubs against it! :( So the dealer has an XT without the sunroof and who can deny the joy of the extra power to a guy in mid-life crisis? ;)
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