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Nissan Frontier Crew Cab VS Ford Explorer Sport Trac
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Comments
Your assessment of American quality is as "blind" as those of ll7's on imports. That is, you both base your conclusions on the particular vehicle you drive/have. Now is that wrong? No, not necessarily. But seriously, how many other Caravans can you honestly say, have as many miles as you have? When was the last time you've bought an "American vehicle"? Just for comparisons sake, my neighbor drives a 99 Grand Caravan, she already has problems with her transmission (i.e. rough shifts between 1st and 2nd). Does that sound like the Caravan you have? Certainly not. If you don't believe me then just stroll over to the Caravan posting board or go over to a local mechanic. Now, granted that every automaker has their share of lemons (e.g. Honda Odyssey with grade logic problems on transmissions), my understanding is that Chrysler knew about the faulty auto trans on their vans, for a long period of time.
As for the comment made by ll7 on "Hondas, Toyotas, and Nissans way ahead of the Americans" I have to agree with it 50%. There was a time when Imports were much better than domestics, just ask those who've owned imports (1980's). Ask Vince8 on this board, he thinks so too. If that wasn't the case, then why would they buy it? What possible reason could they have in supporting another country? On the other hand with American cars, you have to consider patriotic reasons/obligations on SOME purchases.
As for the 1990's (92 and up), I can't say (through experience) that imports are better than domestics because the last car our family purchased was a '91 Pathfinder (106K HARD driven miles and still going strong). Nonetheless I hope that American cars now, are equal or better than imports, for America's sake!
Also, the Japanese really don't have much choice in whether or not to make quality products considering they're a small island with very few resources. Am I saying that all Japanese products are better, no! But the incentives are certainly there to do so. Ex: What kind of TV, VCR do you have, I'm willing to wager, Japanese brands.... Just my $0.02.
I read it all over, the blind notion of if it says Toyota/Honda its just better, no questions asked.
Also, you obviously don't realize why all electronics had shifted to Asia in the 60's and 70's. Cheap labor! Cheaper prices for the goods. This is what drives jobs out of the U.S.
The blind faith that anything made by Honda/Toyota/Nissan is just going to be better is a stigma from the 70's and 80's. I would even say I would not have bought a chevy in those years either. In 1990 I crossed over to the darkside of GM/Ford/Dodge products. After owning several, some used some new. None gave me any reason to pay the extra cash for a perceived quality/reliabiliy advantage. Currently own 2 Fords that have been fantastic. I can rattle off numerous other family members who own Ford/Dodge/GM products who are statified also!
Of course you can't condemn an entire make of vehicles because of one person's bad experience with one particular vehicle. The converse is also true. That was exactly the point of my post that has seemed to create such an uproar. As I said, you have to look at the experience of the vehicle and make in its entirety.
I absolutely stand by my statement that as a whole, Japaneese vehicles (especially Toyotas, Nissans and Hondas) are way ahead of the Americans. Also, keep in mind that we are talking about reliability.
DTKWOK,
My statement is not based on any "blind" belief of Japaneese superiority. It is based on many years of research and my own and shared experiences with both import and domestic vehicle owners.
2drive,
You asked for my facts. Let me quote from Consumer Reports Buying Guide 2000, pg 279, Auto Reliability. "On average, cars with a Japaneese nameplate are more reliable than European makes which are more reliable than American makes. These differences, true for many years, are now narrowing, particularly with newer models. Generally the cars most likely to be trouble-free are from the major Japaneese manufacturers - Honda/Acura, Toyota/Lexus, Nissan/Infiniti, and Subaru." These are not my words, they are quoted directly from Consumer Reports. I guarantee you that they have the facts (over 40 years of rating vehicles) to back their statements.
Also, have you ever seen a J.D. Powers survey on quality. The last time that I saw one, I believe the majority of their top 10 were Japaneese vehicles. Perhaps someone has access to their latest report and can cite the results.
Please understand that I am not trying to bash America or American products. In most cases, I believe that Americans produce superior products compared to the rest of the world. It's just that when it comes to vehicle reliability, the Japaneese have us beat.
As for the electronics industry in Asia, it still doesn't affect or hide the fact that the Japanese looked upon an industry once dominated by America and said "Hey we could you make it better." As someone previously stated, once the Japanese get a hold of new technology (i.e. ours), they have a knack for copying it and making it better.
Regarding the blind faith of imports, I can only comment that this also exists for domestics. I do not beleive that either case is acceptable. But in defense of both types of faith, its hard for a person to go to "back to the other side" once he/she has been burned by that side, either by the company, the vehicle, or both. So, you are correct in saying that it'll take about 10 years for the 70's and 80's import-advantage-quality stigma to go away (that was a mouthful ). What does everyone else think?
DTKWOK
One thing people have to factor about the Japanese people/companies is that they seem to be open to constructive criticism. They aren't hung up on "If it worked for 50 years why can't I use it now?" Vince8, you mentioned that you worked for a Japanese company as well, could you shed some light on this? On the other hand many American people/companies (notice I said MANY and not ALL or MOST) have a great sense of pride in their way of doing things, up to the point where suggested improvements are hard to implement. I use to work for an American aerospace company as an intern and believe me, they sort of look down at you if you just came in. (A simple problem was presented, I provided possible solutions, senior engineers wouldn't even entertain a look at the suggestions because I was an intern. Finally took it to dept. manager who decided to present it to the engineers, as his solutions, with my consent. Guess what? Problem solved.) Not trying to bash America; I'm proud to be an American, but does that make me perfect? No, but others definitely think they are. Just look at the arrogance of "Why do I have to learn to speak a second language? English is all I need to know."
Sorry for venturing off the topic in the last paragraph, I'll get off my soapbox...
DTKWOK
I do however wonder about this inferiority complex I see around the internet when it comes to Japanese vs American know how and engineering. I spend my time fixing and improving tools for the semi-conductor industry. If you can only see some of the tools that come in and the way they are wired and configured, it would blow your mind. My whole point is the Japanese people are just that, people. They make mistakes, have problems just like any other culture or company. I have visited Japan and their standard of living is not that great. Products are expensive, their product choices are limited also. Most folks live in apartment style housing, single familiy housing is for the rich only.
Also, when it comes to engineering, America is always the trend setter. The Japanese actually look up at America's technology! Why do you think rich Japanese businessman spend so much money buying up classic automobiles, Harley Davidsons, and cowboy stuff? Because when they were little the wonders and glamours of America were presented to them.
Okay, I'll go out on a limb here... Coming from an Asian background myself, I can honestly say that America leads in innovation while the Japanese are more tuned to the finer details of a technology (once they get the hang of it). Whatever the case, competition (e.g. learning from each other's work methodology) only help in producing better products.
Yeah, standard of living in Japan is not great compared to here. That's why many of them make a whole bunch of money, retire, and come here!
There is no such thing as a total American, Japanese, or German automaker now. It's a global economy whether you like it or not. However some people still use the company's origins as a frame of reference. What's more, there are still people out there who just won't admit that imports were better than domestics at ONE time. Yes, buy whatever suits your needs. BTW, did you know that the older Nissan Patrols were a joint venture project between Ford and Nissan? I think Ford provided the engine and Nissan took care of the rest. (My understanding is that the Quest/Villager is also a partnership project.) Just food for thought.
I have a friend who owns a Tacoma, he paid 23K+ for it also. He knew nothing about the Tacoma having the worst crash test rating, or possible headgasket problems, or an open axle, or any of the techinical aspects of the truck when comparing like models.
Nissan builds a good truck, I know several owners of Nissans. Its just that Toyota has this false reputation.
On the tests by the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (U.S. government), the Tacoma did indeed get the worst rating for side impact collisions. However, it also got the second best rating for front impact collisions.
Moreover, on the tests by the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety (a not-for-profit agency), the Tacoma was rated "Acceptable" and BETTER than the Ranger, the S-10, the Frontier and the Dakota.
For what it's worth, many people think that the offset test the Insurance Institute uses is the best indicator of real world crash performance.
Check it out for yourself:
http://www.hwysafety.org/
http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/
VEHICLE TYPE: front-engine rear or 4wd, 5-pass, 4 door pickup
BASE PRICE: rwd: $23,050, 4wd: $25,820
ENGINE:
-Type: V6, iron block, alloy heads
Bore x stroke: 3.95 x 3.32 in., 100.4 x 84.4mm
Displacement: 245 cu in, 4009cc
Compression ratio: 9.7:1
Engine Control System: Ford EDIS w. port fuel injection
Power (SAE net): 205 bhp @ 5250 rpm
Torque (SAE net): 240 lb-ft @ 3750 rpm
Redline: 6250 rpm
The Explorer Sport Trac should be safer than all of the other small pickups. It is more on the Explorer side than it is on the Ranger's side. The body is very stiff. Also, 0-60 mph requires only 8.5 seconds and fuel economy is up to 20 mpg!
The overall length is 180.4 in as compared to 193.1 for the Crew Cab. The bed is 50 in. long and 42 in. wide as compared to the Crew Cab's bed length of 54.7 in. and width of 59.8 in. Also, the Sport Trac's bed is composite plastic inside and out. What I don't understand is how it can be 13 in. shorter than the Crew Cab and have an equivalent amount of room in the cab. This article touts how roomy the Sport Trac's cabin is for 5 adults. Has anyone seen cabin statistics? If so, please post them. Also jam12 thanks for the J.D. Powers info.
DTKWOK
Nissan CC prices will fall now that the Dodge, and Ford are out with their CC models.
They had one of these Sport Tracs there and I couldn't believe the price for a basic truck. $26,300 for rubber mats and el cheapo seat covers.
I probably should tell you I have a Dakota Quad Cab. The size of the Ford was pretty good, in between the Nissan and the Ford. Rear seat, with front all the way back is quite a bit less than the Dakota, but I'll admit, it would probably be ok. The electric(?) rear window had been down in this mornings rain, so the seat was soaked, but that's life. I didn't drive it, but I've driven the SOHC and it's also pretty good. The new 4.7 in the Dakota is 235 hp and 295 torque and is a rocket ship, also 15 mpg! I did like the composite bed, tail gate is steel.
I have one of those bed extenders, haven't used it, but will on Tuesday.
I absolutely love my Dakota, concerned about the transmission problems, it's a special combo deal with the new 4.7 that started in the
Grand Cherokee couple years ago, and gets a lot of bad press.
I've always been a GMC/Chevy guy; where the hell are they in this race??
I figure this is the last new truck I'm buying, with retirement in a short few years. The Ford will sell like hotcakes, cause Ford has the ability to produce many versions of anything with many options. Good for them, bad for the other guys. I had talked with a couple Ford guys who saw the Sport Trac before I got my Dakota, they were kinda disappointed that it was not what they expected, I was too, but it sure looked good. By the way, the Nissan is a pretty good truck too.
Be careful about there.
I did see the ford at the Auto show in Toronto over the weekend, and I wasn't overly impressed for the money. They start at $35k! for a small truck; too much. I actually found the back seat to be more roomy and comfortable inb the Nissan. I think that is because the Nissan seat bottom is longer. They don't try to make it look like there is more room by shrinking the seats. My 6'4" friend was with me and really couldn't get in the back seat of the Ford, but he can fit okay in the Nissan; although you wouldn't want to go any distance.
I am not sure why there is as big a price difference in Canada as compared to the US. It might be that Nissan gives you everything in a package while the US companies tend to add everything as an option so when you get fully loaded they are way more expensive. There is literally nothing else you could put on mine besides leather seats, power rear window slider, or a bigger engine; three things I would not want!
Over all my wife is very happy with our new CC as there is enough room for both our kids in their car seats in the back and we can put our front seats all the way back and be very comfortable compared to our Honda CR-V we traded. It also rides much better!!
I don't agree with the intitial quality being better because it has a stronger engine and better interior comfort. That is design not quality. My experiences with Fords is the quality is less than Nissan. J.D. Powers also agrees with me over the long run. So does resale values. I have many friends (yes more than 3) who are wishing they didn't buy that quality vehicle; the Ford Windstar! Every one has had multiple problems including changing the tranny 2 to 3 times, electrical problems etc..
I did not find the Sport Trac (or explorer as they call it in Canada)to be any better designed in the interior than the Nissan. The other people looking at them with me at the Auto show also found this. My 6'4" friend could not get comfotable in the Sport Trac's seats; front or rear.
I don't even want to talk about the Dodge. I am from truck country (way up in the frozen North) and mention a Dakota and most people with experience with them will tell you their quality su__s! Sorry, but if you want to get the best bang for your buck and get a vehicle that will last pick the Nissan.
I am not sure whether the Sport Trac is based on the Explorer or Ranger but both platforms have problems.
to respond to #97 the Sport trac is based on the explorer platform (half explorer half truck) where did ranger come in? when did either platform have troubles? i havent heard anything about that part.
i just bought a s-t last monday and love it!! any questions, email me! )
to respond to #97 the Sport trac is based on the explorer platform (half explorer half truck) where did ranger come in? when did either platform have troubles? i havent heard anything about that part.
i just bought a s-t last monday and love it!! any questions, email me! )
This difference is based on hard cold facts of the
past quality history of these companies /vehicals.
And if you check Consumer digest, Auto.com, Popular mechanics, see how Ford does, you may be surprised. Nissan and resale don't go hand in hand either, check Kelly Blue Books and type in like modles of Fords/Nissans, Surprise!
Sport Trac is the winner here folks. Its based on the Explorer platform also. I hear rumors of a V8 too! in the next couple of years.
I think that each of these trucks have there good and bad points, but they are all woth buying. The only problem in my area is the List pirce of the Dodge fully loaded is $39,000CAN and the Ford is set to be very close to that. I paid $29,800+taxes for the fully loaded Nissan (and I just opened my Junk mail last night and found a coupon from Nissan saying I would get $500 cash if I buy a Crew Cab!! and I qualify for it!). Granted the engine is smaller, and it doesn't have leather seats, but the price difference for me is just too much. That above evrything else is what made me decide to buy the Nissan.
Just to see what would happen, he pulled my trailer, and guess what? He was able to pull it a little better but not as easily as me. He did bring the Windstar in and they said there was no problem. We figure it could be another Tranny problem (he is on his 3rd @ 55000miles). Do I think this should be the case? NO! I realize the that particular Windstar must have a problem but Ford didn't know what it was. I did sell my CR-V because I was afraid of putting too much strain on it's brakes, frame, transmission and engine; but not becuase it couldn't pull well. Maybe the Torque on the max Windstar is at a high RPM? Maybe the Windstar is much heavier and overall has too much wind resistance....I don't know the reason and I am certainly not a Car buff to know much about HP & Torque and stuff, but I can say my particular CR-V had more pulling power (for whatever reason) than my friends 1996 3.9L Windstar. He agrees too.
Here are Edmunds.com statistics on leg room:
Sport Trac:
Front Leg Room: 42.2 in.
Rear Leg Room: 37.8 in.
Dodge Q-Cab
Front Leg Room: 41.9 in.
Rear Leg Room: 36 in.
Nissan Crew Cab
Front Leg Room: 41.4 in.
Rear Leg Room: 30.7 in.
The Sport Trac clearly has more legroom than the other vehicles.