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Subaru Outback: Catastrophic Engine Failure at 70K Miles---Need Advice!
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Comments
Sure, if a dealer wants to "give" you something, great (and sometimes GOOD BUSINESS!). But legally, you have a very tough nut to crack here.
It's a cruel world, and few are crueler than the automobile business.
AS to the case at hand, sounds like you busted the timing belt, doesn't it?
Not exactly GREAT news, but better news than before.
zues: were you joking about the photos? i do not think i will be back to the dealer---ever. what do you think they might have done wrong? really, i dont know this stuff very well.
finally, as to why someone might cover you beyond a warranty: let us say that you had a house built, and there of course is NO warranty. let us say that after 3 years you find that the contracter built the foundation with concrete that was flawed, or the wrong density, or contained large pockets of air, and that the house was at risk. Now, there is NO warranty, but wouldnt you feel you could go after the contractor or the sub because there is an "implied warranty" or assurance that good materials were used?
When there is a failure - if a dealer is not involved, there's not a lot we can do. Once a dealer is involved, we'll try to find the reason for the failure and see if there is something we can do to help. It may not be 100% (back to the extended service agreement issue), but we will try to do something - unless it is WAY out of warranty and the failure is something that could have been prevented by proper maintenance.
I will say that it is less compelling to do something when someone is nasty or approaches the subject as an entitlement. We're trying. Work with us please?
Patti
Again, if it's out of warranty, or there was never any warranty, you're out of luck. Is it fair? Not if you're the one who is stuck with the bill, but what are your choices? The best you can hope for is that you have a sympathetic contractor.
Bob
Please let us not play "blame the victim". I went to a highly reputable mechanic and documented the service record. I followed all SUBARU recommendations. Now, it seems that the Dealer here in Port Jefferson did not install the short block properly. What would lead to these bent valves, and the use of sealant rather than gaskets on the installation? I believe that they did not want to take my engine apart because they were worried tha what they would find would implicate them! Clearly my original engine was a "lemon" and the Dealer did not address it in an honest and straight forward manner.
And this was not "WAY out of warranty". 70k miles and 5 years is pretty marginal. Especially since a good chunk of the engine had only 40K!.
And is SUBARU "working with" me? I called the SUBARU3 number and got a case number assigned. "Sephy" was supposed to call me back but she never did. I was told by the service manager at the Dealer that he "spoke to SUBARU" and that they refused assistance. But did he really? I asked Sephy to check but once again, no return phone call.
Your best bet is to find a dealer who is willing to take a look at your car and involve Subaru. Subaru may be able to help to a degree. But the way things stand right now you can't really blame Subaru - they haven't had a chance to even look at your car.
But your car was not even with the dealer! Don't listen to the manager - find another dealer, if necessary, check your car in, involve the regional rep, and then see if Subaru can help.
What rights? Sue whom? For what exactly?
The issues of "implied warranty" are complex and fraught with peril. For one thing, implied warranties are conducted under state and not Federal law (this is my understanding), so each state may have different requirements.
Secondly, the home owner analogy may not be at all suitable here as the implied warranty for homes relates to "habitability" and to "workmanlike standards" that are within the industry norm for houses.
That latter standard seems an unrealistic standard contradicted every day by engine catastrophes from all types of automakers.
Engines fall apart all the time at the 77K mark for various (and often completely unknowable) reasons. There are things like oil starvation from undetected oil leak, metal fatigue (that piston has gone up and down a lotta times in 77K miles), owner negligence, owner abuse, repair shop negligence, road hazard (sucking water from a deep puddle into the intake), undetected head gasket failure (coolant destroys the bearings).I'm sure there are ten more good reasons, too.
The reason I suggested an engine tear down is that it might reveal something that CAN be used as leverage not with Subaru but with the dealer who performed the previous warranty repairs on the engine. But even there---what repair shop could possibly warranty repairs for such a long period of time? The most I ever heard of was one year on an engine rebuild.
Anyway, good luck with this whatever you choose to do.
That being said, if it isn't at the dealer, we cannot help. It's your choice, but you can feel confident if it does go into this dealer or any other that you choose. We will be involved to make sure it is handled appropriately. We will check to see if it is related to the previous repair or if it is something else.
Once again - it is your choice. The Rep. that contacts you will request the service history on the vehicle. That may help us help you, but it is your call.
I'm sorry for our poor response and I promise to make sure everything is reviewed as a priority at this point.
Patti
My earlier comments stem from the notion that a gasket was used on one side, but not on the other. If the dealer's tech did a poor job back at 30K, then that's a whole new can of worms to open up....
I hope you can understand my dilemna. I went to the dealership, and after explaining the situation to the Service Manager (AND the sales manager), I was told that they did NOT want to look at the car.
It had already been towed to my mechanic, who at that time had NOT yet taken the engine out of the car. I was arranging for it to be towed to the Dealer (A1 Towing--you can check), when I got the phone call from the service manager explicitly instructing me not to tow the car. He told me that he had "spoken to SUBARU" and that they were "refusing to provide any assistance because your car is out of warranty". He did not want to listen to any arguements about how it only really had 40Kmiles since his people had replaced a huge chunk of the engine. He was very FIRM. I even asked him if I could use the car as a "trade in" for a new Model so that I could remain a happy customer and say in the Subaru "family". He said that was impossible. I appealed to SUBARU, calling the 800 number a few times, but was told only that Sephy would look into it and get back to me.
So what could I do? I need the car to get around, so I asked my mechanic to pull the engine and look at it. What would you have done at that point Patti? I think my actions have all been quite reasonable. The Dealer and Subaru have not acted in a customer-oriented manner. They give the impression that they do not care since they sell all of the cars that they make anyway.
So now, the car is at my mechanic. The bent valves, and the improperly installed seals from the 30K short block replacement are still available for anyone from Subaru to inspect or photograph. He will be ordering parts (from Subaru of course) for a "valve job" which includes new timing belt, water pump, etc.
If you really want to help then let me know what I can do at this point.
Larry
Patti
Larry
It is basically a mediator hired by "good" businesses to work on problems created by "bad" businesses. It's not a consumer organization in the strictest sense but a self-policing type of business server. Nonetheless it can sometimes be a good mediator and get a settlement going.
You are given a "case #" !! We had a contractor that did not finish the work he started on our house. Even though the BBB could not get him to finish the job or refund our money it proved to be benifical when the State Attorney General sued the contractor on the behalf of all the people he ripped off. The state used the BBB to track down all the customers and we all received a settlement after they literally sued the guy out of business.
So regardless of what you think the BBB motives and loyalties lie it is well worth the phone call to; 1) help warn people who check out the CO. history, 2) a good way to document that a CO. had not fulfilled its end of good business practice. Like our situation, if enough smaller complaints come in and the State Attorney can see and document a problum, they can sue on your behalf. The amount of money in our case was not enough to make it worthwhile to go to court but put them all together and you got something.
2. Also saw that one side had been sealed with gaskets and the other side with sealant. It raises questions about just what my local dealer did when he "replaced the short block" (did he really do this? was it performed improperly? did the service manager really contact SUBARU as he stated? Is he worried what SUBARU might find if they did inspect the work that his people did?)
3. I am encouraged to report that I did get a phone call from someone at SUBARU customer service who has asked me to send him the repair records and who will look into the matter for me.
I am hoping that this will be eventually resolved and that I will be able to post a "happy ending" on this site.
Larry
Subaru is sticking out a hand for possible help when they have NO requirement to do so, so why on Earth would you consider filing a BBB complaint against Subaru?
I guess that's a stereotypical consumer response - I see it all the time. "I want something for free, and oh by the way, I'll sue you whether you help me or not".
Parson my candor, but in my position, I see a strong lack of honor, on the consumer's part, in many cases.
You took a chance without one, knew the risks and unfortunately got put into this position.
Oh well...chalk it down as another hard lesson learned in life.
2. Also saw that one side had been sealed with gaskets and the other side with sealant. It raises questions about just what my local dealer did when he "replaced the short block" (did he really do this? was it performed improperly? did the service manager really contact SUBARU as he stated? Is he worried what SUBARU might find if they did inspect the work that his people did?)
3. I am encouraged to report that I did get a phone call from someone at SUBARU customer service who has asked me to send him the repair records and who will look into the matter for me.
I am hoping that this will be eventually resolved and that I will be able to post a "happy ending" on this site.
Larry
I hope that if the BBB IS used in this case, that if the resolution is satisfactory, a call will be made to report the problem as resolved.
kirstie_h
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I'm glad to see Subaru is trying to help, but honestly, I have a Subaru Gold warranty, and if they treated me exactly the same as they treat a customer without one, well...
...I want my money back. It's unfair to customer like me. Don't you think?
If the repairs were done improperly, that's a totally different story. In that case the dealership is liable, not Subaru.
Any consideration Subaru gives is gravy, IMO.
-juice
**Please** don't take this as anything other than detached, scientific curiosity. How long ago was the last oil change or level check, and the same for the coolant? When an engine self destructs, it's nearly always due to a lack of coolant or lubrication, and when the oil pan is removed, a qualified observer can clearly see the results of either by the residue left behind.
IdahoDoug
This is a case of major engine would being done by the dealer at 40K and then a catastrophic engine failure 30k miles later.
Let's change the intervals a little. The customer has the short block replaced at 40K and goes to pick up the car. Twenty feet down the road from the dealership, the engine blows up. Even without evidence, most would agree that the engine failure is most likely related to the short block replacement.
Of course, an engine failure 30k later is a little different, but it sounds premature. If it were my car, I would be upset too.
If all it took was not checking your oil and coolant or even sub-par maintenance to throw a rod then wouldn't you think it would be alot more common/recognizable?
kirstie_h
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kirstie_h
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For one thing---how did the valves get bent? (4 of 8 only)
I can think offhand of three possibilities:
1. Broken timing belt
2. Slipped timing belt
3. Hydro-locking cylinders
If #1, then we'd have to "unpack" the issue of the short block, as a timing belt is not part of a short block. So either the dealer used the old timing belt (which is fine if it looked serviceable, although a bit conservative in that it wouldn't cost too much to put on a new one), or he replaced it with a new one. In either case, the warranty on the belt is over---neither used nor new belt would the belt be warrantied at 70K (old belt) or 30K (new belt). So if your position was that a new timing belt cannot fail at 30K, then your beef is with the manufacturer seems to me, unless you can convince someone that the dealer must warranty everything he sells beyond the manufacturer of the product.
IF #2, that the belt slipped, screwing up the cam/crank timing, and thus bending only a few valves (one would presume all valves bent with a broken belt), then we would suspect the belt or the tensioner. It is my understanding that a new tensioner is not part of a short block, either--so the tensioner if new or used, has the same issues as a new or used timing belt. The only dealer culpability here would be in assembly, seems to me anyway.
If #3, hydro-locking, this could be a better case for you, in that it implies head gasket failure, which is certainly part of the short block operation.
As you can see, determining cause or neglect isn't going to be so easy. Did the dealer install the old tensioner incorrectly? If so, would this take 30K miles to malfunction? Was the head gasket defective, causing hydrolock in two cylinders? What is the evidence available for head gasket failure?
If the belt broke or slipped, was it a new belt or the old one? How do you find this out? If the old belt, what case do you have? If a new belt with 30K, who is responsible for its breakage?
So I feel your best course of action is to determine what caused the failure because sooner or later someone is going to ask you to show evidence of that. This is what the whole thing boils down to IMO.
Right now, it doesn't seem that this has been determined, and therefore, placing the blame seems premature at this point.
Hope this helps to clarify the issue somewhat for all sides concerned.
Consider this possiblity, the "funky" sealer used on one bank allowed oil to leak on the exhaust cam gear (I'm not that familiar with the Suby Boxer engine, so maybe there is only one cam.) Timing belt slips on greasy gear.
Now that cam is "late" and the pistons smack the exhaust valves as they don't get out of the way in time.
Just speculation, but I do have an active imagination. Of course non of this helps him solve his problem.
TB
Interested in St Louis
Greg
But a broken belt only proves a broken belt, not negligence.
Now a wrong part installed, or installed backwards, that would be something convincing.
Or any failed metallurgy might be of interest.
I guess what I'm saying is that the burden of proof rests with you. Your broken engine, in total while dramatic, isn't by itself evidence of wrong doing. It's the little pieces inside that hold the answer (or not).
I agree with you here, the argument is only with the dealer, not with SOA, in my opinion.
Also, having the engine disassembled outside the dealership weakens the case considerably, as the dealer can claim damage during disassembly.
What I can say is this. Neither situation appears to be related to manfacturing defects or dealer negligence. I'm saying this so folks don't get into a panic about their Subaru engines.
We're working with both gentlemen involved.
Thanks!
Patti
Greg
Happened at idle both times, once just after starting. No noise or other sign of what had happened. Engine just died.
-juice
Current status is that my local mechanic has just completed the complete valve job, and that the engine is operating fine.
It may not be possible to determine "fault" at this point. Was it an improper installation of the Short Block by the Subaru Dealership here on Long Island? I certainly have some reasons to believe this, including their rather inappropriate and unhelpful behavior towards me after they learned of my engine failure.
Or, was it my local mechanic's fault when he did the 60K service which included replacement of the timing belt. He is a high quality mechanic whose business specializes in Japanese imports, and he (of course) claims that this is impossible, and that everything was done properly, and that the belt could not have slipped since there is a hydraulic tensioner.
Who knows?
Larry
-juice
If I had more info I might think differently, but this is how it strikes me at the moment.
Rather than look for the guilty,however, I would encourage you to chalk it up to bad luck, which just happens to everyone now and then.