Subaru Outback: Catastrophic Engine Failure at 70K Miles---Need Advice!

Mr_Shiftright · August 2003

I'm still rather perplexed why anyone would think a company actually owes you anything when you are out of warranty on time AND on miles. This is the contract between consumer and manufacturer, and while maybe not 100% ironclad in every conceivable case, if you think it's easy to bust a written warranty---well, I would respectfully disagree.

Sure, if a dealer wants to "give" you something, great (and sometimes GOOD BUSINESS!). But legally, you have a very tough nut to crack here.

It's a cruel world, and few are crueler than the automobile business.

AS to the case at hand, sounds like you busted the timing belt, doesn't it?

Not exactly GREAT news, but better news than before.

lreinstein · August 2003

yes a 4 cylinder.

zues: were you joking about the photos? i do not think i will be back to the dealer---ever. what do you think they might have done wrong? really, i dont know this stuff very well.

finally, as to why someone might cover you beyond a warranty: let us say that you had a house built, and there of course is NO warranty. let us say that after 3 years you find that the contracter built the foundation with concrete that was flawed, or the wrong density, or contained large pockets of air, and that the house was at risk. Now, there is NO warranty, but wouldnt you feel you could go after the contractor or the sub because there is an "implied warranty" or assurance that good materials were used?

subaru_team · August 2003

Sorry folks - but from my perspective - we want to try to help when we can. However, we are not obligated according to the terms of the warranty. Mr. Shiftright is correct. The warranty is not implied - it's specific. The terms are clear. When we get involved, we need to find reasons to try to help when someone has not opted to purchase and extended service agreement. Is it fair to the folks that did purchase one for us to give the same benefit of coverage?

When there is a failure - if a dealer is not involved, there's not a lot we can do. Once a dealer is involved, we'll try to find the reason for the failure and see if there is something we can do to help. It may not be 100% (back to the extended service agreement issue), but we will try to do something - unless it is WAY out of warranty and the failure is something that could have been prevented by proper maintenance.

I will say that it is less compelling to do something when someone is nasty or approaches the subject as an entitlement. We're trying. Work with us please?

Patti

rsholland · August 2003

but let's for the sake of argument, you're right...

Again, if it's out of warranty, or there was never any warranty, you're out of luck. Is it fair? Not if you're the one who is stuck with the bill, but what are your choices? The best you can hope for is that you have a sympathetic contractor.

Bob

lreinstein · August 2003

Have you actually read through my initial posts? I have been as nice and as cooperative as possible. True, i did not continue to use the dealer service at 30K because they were not helpful. They changed the "short block" due to my complaints of piston noise---and the noise remained. I suppose at that time (since the engine was still under warranty) I should have demanded a total enginereplacement with a new 5 year warranty.

Please let us not play "blame the victim". I went to a highly reputable mechanic and documented the service record. I followed all SUBARU recommendations. Now, it seems that the Dealer here in Port Jefferson did not install the short block properly. What would lead to these bent valves, and the use of sealant rather than gaskets on the installation? I believe that they did not want to take my engine apart because they were worried tha what they would find would implicate them! Clearly my original engine was a "lemon" and the Dealer did not address it in an honest and straight forward manner.

And this was not "WAY out of warranty". 70k miles and 5 years is pretty marginal. Especially since a good chunk of the engine had only 40K!.

And is SUBARU "working with" me? I called the SUBARU3 number and got a case number assigned. "Sephy" was supposed to call me back but she never did. I was told by the service manager at the Dealer that he "spoke to SUBARU" and that they refused assistance. But did he really? I asked Sephy to check but once again, no return phone call.

sgrd0q · August 2003

The product's merchantability or its fitness for a particular purpose is ALWAYS implied. Even if there is a clause in the contract that specifically excludes this, the clause is not enforceable in most circumstances. The problem is you need to go to court and may very well end up spending a lot of money and time and lose at the end.

Your best bet is to find a dealer who is willing to take a look at your car and involve Subaru. Subaru may be able to help to a degree. But the way things stand right now you can't really blame Subaru - they haven't had a chance to even look at your car.

sgrd0q · August 2003

Dealer that he "spoke to SUBARU" and that they refused assistance.

But your car was not even with the dealer! Don't listen to the manager - find another dealer, if necessary, check your car in, involve the regional rep, and then see if Subaru can help.

Mr_Shiftright · August 2003

I think that it is far too facile to merely say "sue them" or "stand up for your rights!".

What rights? Sue whom? For what exactly?

The issues of "implied warranty" are complex and fraught with peril. For one thing, implied warranties are conducted under state and not Federal law (this is my understanding), so each state may have different requirements.

Secondly, the home owner analogy may not be at all suitable here as the implied warranty for homes relates to "habitability" and to "workmanlike standards" that are within the industry norm for houses.

That latter standard seems an unrealistic standard contradicted every day by engine catastrophes from all types of automakers.

Engines fall apart all the time at the 77K mark for various (and often completely unknowable) reasons. There are things like oil starvation from undetected oil leak, metal fatigue (that piston has gone up and down a lotta times in 77K miles), owner negligence, owner abuse, repair shop negligence, road hazard (sucking water from a deep puddle into the intake), undetected head gasket failure (coolant destroys the bearings).I'm sure there are ten more good reasons, too.

The reason I suggested an engine tear down is that it might reveal something that CAN be used as leverage not with Subaru but with the dealer who performed the previous warranty repairs on the engine. But even there---what repair shop could possibly warranty repairs for such a long period of time? The most I ever heard of was one year on an engine rebuild.

Anyway, good luck with this whatever you choose to do.

subaru_team · August 2003

Due to other circumstances, she will be out of the office for about a month. Your case has been assigned to another Rep. for follow-up. You should hear from him tomorrow.

That being said, if it isn't at the dealer, we cannot help. It's your choice, but you can feel confident if it does go into this dealer or any other that you choose. We will be involved to make sure it is handled appropriately. We will check to see if it is related to the previous repair or if it is something else.

Once again - it is your choice. The Rep. that contacts you will request the service history on the vehicle. That may help us help you, but it is your call.

I'm sorry for our poor response and I promise to make sure everything is reviewed as a priority at this point.

Patti

Mr_Shiftright · August 2003

Thanks Patti for the intervention. I hope the owner will keep us posted on what decisions they made and how things turn out.

ftdad1 · August 2003

saying that I am entitled to have the repairs on my car covered. I am saying that it makes good bissness sense and is in my opinion the "right" thing to do. I would not and will not sue anyone over this. The out come will only affect my faith in Subaru as a CO. that stands behind it products. I have recommended their products to many co-workers and friends that has led to at least 3 purchases that I know of. I would not be able to recommend them any longer if they choose not to help me, nor would I buy another product from them. But that admittedly doesn't mean much to a company the size of Subaru. I really expect them to chalk me up as a loss, but I am greatful that they are even looking into my case and Patti really seem to go above and beyond the call of duty.

zueslewis · August 2003

The warranty is up, implied warranty doesn't count in this case because the dealer didn't get first crack at the investigation, and there is no breach of warranty.

My earlier comments stem from the notion that a gasket was used on one side, but not on the other. If the dealer's tech did a poor job back at 30K, then that's a whole new can of worms to open up....

lreinstein · August 2003

Perhaps we ought to talk off line. If you have the case (#522499) then you will know my phone numbers to reach me.

I hope you can understand my dilemna. I went to the dealership, and after explaining the situation to the Service Manager (AND the sales manager), I was told that they did NOT want to look at the car.

It had already been towed to my mechanic, who at that time had NOT yet taken the engine out of the car. I was arranging for it to be towed to the Dealer (A1 Towing--you can check), when I got the phone call from the service manager explicitly instructing me not to tow the car. He told me that he had "spoken to SUBARU" and that they were "refusing to provide any assistance because your car is out of warranty". He did not want to listen to any arguements about how it only really had 40Kmiles since his people had replaced a huge chunk of the engine. He was very FIRM. I even asked him if I could use the car as a "trade in" for a new Model so that I could remain a happy customer and say in the Subaru "family". He said that was impossible. I appealed to SUBARU, calling the 800 number a few times, but was told only that Sephy would look into it and get back to me.

So what could I do? I need the car to get around, so I asked my mechanic to pull the engine and look at it. What would you have done at that point Patti? I think my actions have all been quite reasonable. The Dealer and Subaru have not acted in a customer-oriented manner. They give the impression that they do not care since they sell all of the cars that they make anyway.

So now, the car is at my mechanic. The bent valves, and the improperly installed seals from the 30K short block replacement are still available for anyone from Subaru to inspect or photograph. He will be ordering parts (from Subaru of course) for a "valve job" which includes new timing belt, water pump, etc.

If you really want to help then let me know what I can do at this point.

Larry

zueslewis · August 2003

the guy's using Subaru as the bad guy, and that's not the case.

lreinstein · August 2003

to fight the dealer. In my eyes I bought my car from SUBARU and not the dealer who simply supplied it. I bought into SUBARU advertising (never saw dealer ads), SUBARU claims, SUBARU specifications, and SUBARU reputation. I can not believe that SUBARU does not have the clout to chastise or reward a single dealership. It would be easy enough for them to have made a compromise, split the difference, sold me a new one and ate some of the cost on the trade in, whatever. I suggested them all

subaru_team · August 2003

and I'll see if we can find a way to help you. I do promise to try to do something. I just don't know what we can do yet. I do understand your frustration and I'll try to get to the bottom of why the dealer responded the way they did. I can see why you needed the car back and took the quickest form of action. We'll try.

Patti

ftdad1 · August 2003

at the very least give the Better Business Burrow a call and get a case going against the Dealership. It most likely will not, turn out in your favor but there are quite a few people such as myself that check the BBB before buying/shopping at a dealership.

zueslewis · August 2003

repair at 30K, which could have lead to the current problems. The dealership worked on your car, not Subaru.

lreinstein · August 2003

lreinstein · August 2003

i do appreciate the fact that at least subaru is monitoring this board and that you did respond. I will look forward to Barry's call. I hope we can solve the problem together.

Larry

Mr_Shiftright · August 2003

Keep in mind that the Better Business Bureau, while they can be helpful, is totally supported by business. It gets no public money and has no legal or prosecution powers whatsoever. So it can't have a "case" against the dealer (who is probably a dues-paying member).

It is basically a mediator hired by "good" businesses to work on problems created by "bad" businesses. It's not a consumer organization in the strictest sense but a self-policing type of business server. Nonetheless it can sometimes be a good mediator and get a settlement going.

ftdad1 · August 2003

St. Louis, MO, all you have to do is go to the BBB web site and put in the CO. phone# it will tell you the number of complaints made against them in the last 3 years...the number that were "resolved" and the number that were left "disputed". When you look at the stats of the CO. they speak for themselves.

You are given a "case #" !! We had a contractor that did not finish the work he started on our house. Even though the BBB could not get him to finish the job or refund our money it proved to be benifical when the State Attorney General sued the contractor on the behalf of all the people he ripped off. The state used the BBB to track down all the customers and we all received a settlement after they literally sued the guy out of business.

So regardless of what you think the BBB motives and loyalties lie it is well worth the phone call to; 1) help warn people who check out the CO. history, 2) a good way to document that a CO. had not fulfilled its end of good business practice. Like our situation, if enough smaller complaints come in and the State Attorney can see and document a problum, they can sue on your behalf. The amount of money in our case was not enough to make it worthwhile to go to court but put them all together and you got something.

lreinstein · August 2003

that I register a complaint at the BBB against the Local Dealer, or SUBARU itself?

lreinstein · August 2003

1. I visited my Mechanic and observed the engine in pieces. It is surprisingly clean and nice inside---I took pictures if anyone wants to see. No signs of any problems at all, EXCEPT that all 4 exhaust valves are bent so do not seal.

2. Also saw that one side had been sealed with gaskets and the other side with sealant. It raises questions about just what my local dealer did when he "replaced the short block" (did he really do this? was it performed improperly? did the service manager really contact SUBARU as he stated? Is he worried what SUBARU might find if they did inspect the work that his people did?)

3. I am encouraged to report that I did get a phone call from someone at SUBARU customer service who has asked me to send him the repair records and who will look into the matter for me.

I am hoping that this will be eventually resolved and that I will be able to post a "happy ending" on this site.

Larry

zueslewis · August 2003

Subaru hasn't done anything wrong - your beef is with the dealer.

Subaru is sticking out a hand for possible help when they have NO requirement to do so, so why on Earth would you consider filing a BBB complaint against Subaru?

I guess that's a stereotypical consumer response - I see it all the time. "I want something for free, and oh by the way, I'll sue you whether you help me or not".

Parson my candor, but in my position, I see a strong lack of honor, on the consumer's part, in many cases.

kidevo1 · August 2003

I realize this has already been mentioned...but...thats what EXTENDED Warranties are for.

You took a chance without one, knew the risks and unfortunately got put into this position.

Oh well...chalk it down as another hard lesson learned in life.

zueslewis · August 2003

If you don't believe in extended warranties or hate the F&I guy, or whatever, you have to deal with whatever that machine of yours throws at you.

lreinstein · August 2003

1. I visited my Mechanic and observed the engine in pieces. It is surprisingly clean and nice inside---I took pictures if anyone wants to see. No signs of any problems at all, EXCEPT that all 4 exhaust valves are bent so do not seal.

2. Also saw that one side had been sealed with gaskets and the other side with sealant. It raises questions about just what my local dealer did when he "replaced the short block" (did he really do this? was it performed improperly? did the service manager really contact SUBARU as he stated? Is he worried what SUBARU might find if they did inspect the work that his people did?)

3. I am encouraged to report that I did get a phone call from someone at SUBARU customer service who has asked me to send him the repair records and who will look into the matter for me.

I am hoping that this will be eventually resolved and that I will be able to post a "happy ending" on this site.

Larry

Kirstie_H · August 2003

ftdad1, I live in the same area, and I also narrowly avoided dealing with a company with numerous unresolved complaints by using the BBB website. I found out that they had some serious complaints, all unresolved, against them.

I hope that if the BBB IS used in this case, that if the resolution is satisfactory, a call will be made to report the problem as resolved.

kirstie_h
Roving Host & Future Vehicles Host

ateixeira · August 2003

I generally recommend extended warranties, in fact I think I'll start referring people that are shopping for one to this board. ;-)

I'm glad to see Subaru is trying to help, but honestly, I have a Subaru Gold warranty, and if they treated me exactly the same as they treat a customer without one, well...

...I want my money back. It's unfair to customer like me. Don't you think?

If the repairs were done improperly, that's a totally different story. In that case the dealership is liable, not Subaru.

Any consideration Subaru gives is gravy, IMO.

-juice

ftdad1 · August 2003

I am saying call the BBB on the dealer for not repairing the vehicle as stated. If they did not rebuild the short block as they told you, that is more than poor workmanship, it is out right fraud! The fact that it was a warranty repair means that they committed fraud against Subaru as well.

ftdad1 · August 2003

Yea....that BBB site is nice to have, I was checking some dealers out on it awhile back and the range was crazy. Some dealers had 2-3 complaints others had 60-70!! And before someone pipes up with "it is relative to # of cars sold" alot of the "smaller" dealers had the higher # of complaints.

zueslewis · August 2003

but "negligence" would, and you're right, the manufacturer takes responsibility, in many cases, for dealership-level blunders.

idahodoug · August 2003

ftdad,

**Please** don't take this as anything other than detached, scientific curiosity. How long ago was the last oil change or level check, and the same for the coolant? When an engine self destructs, it's nearly always due to a lack of coolant or lubrication, and when the oil pan is removed, a qualified observer can clearly see the results of either by the residue left behind.

IdahoDoug

rubicon52 · August 2003

This is not quite a simple case of engine failure at 70k miles - beyond the warranty but less than a Subaru owner expects.

This is a case of major engine would being done by the dealer at 40K and then a catastrophic engine failure 30k miles later.

Let's change the intervals a little. The customer has the short block replaced at 40K and goes to pick up the car. Twenty feet down the road from the dealership, the engine blows up. Even without evidence, most would agree that the engine failure is most likely related to the short block replacement.

Of course, an engine failure 30k later is a little different, but it sounds premature. If it were my car, I would be upset too.

ftdad1 · August 2003

The last oil change was at 76,000. It was in for service 2,500 miles before the incident. The dealership performs a 40..50 ..60? point check on all parts of the car, top off all fluids. the form (witch I forwarded to SOA) shows all points as being in "good" condition. The mechanic also drove the car to check for a wheelbering noise. If someone that works on cars day in and out did not see/hear any problems I do not think I could have ether. And lets say the car suddenly started to burn oil at the rate that would burn it all up in 2,500 miles, why no oil light or any other for that matter? Isn't that what it is here for? to warn you before you cause engine damage?

If all it took was not checking your oil and coolant or even sub-par maintenance to throw a rod then wouldn't you think it would be alot more common/recognizable?

Kirstie_H · August 2003

ftdad1, if you don't mind, without using names, have you taken your car to the dealership in West County, Mid County, or on Lindbergh? I'm curious, because I had a quite bad experience with one of the three as well, with a different vehicle.

kirstie_h
Roving Host & Future Vehicles Host

ftdad1 · August 2003

I bought the car from a dealer that used to be in north county on hwy 367, they later moved to St. Peters. After they moved I stopped going there, way to far for me to drive for service. I live in the city. The phone book I have dosn't list them as selling Subaru any more? The last service was performed at the dealer on Lindberg. Actually the last time when I ran the Subaru STL dealers on the BBB site, was to pick one for service. I think the one in west county on Manchester was the worst? Is that the one you had trouble with?

Kirstie_H · August 2003

ftdad1, bingo. I just wanted to make sure you'd heard of the widely-experienced service issues with the one in West Co. There are a lot of great independent mechanics in the city area, though, if you do decide to have repairs done at a non-Subaru shop. Hopefully, if your problem was caused by a previous service visit, the dealership will step up.

kirstie_h
Roving Host & Future Vehicles Host

Mr_Shiftright · August 2003

It seems, based on evidence posted, that it is still too premature to presume the dealer's or Subaru's fault.

For one thing---how did the valves get bent? (4 of 8 only)

I can think offhand of three possibilities:

1. Broken timing belt
2. Slipped timing belt
3. Hydro-locking cylinders

If #1, then we'd have to "unpack" the issue of the short block, as a timing belt is not part of a short block. So either the dealer used the old timing belt (which is fine if it looked serviceable, although a bit conservative in that it wouldn't cost too much to put on a new one), or he replaced it with a new one. In either case, the warranty on the belt is over---neither used nor new belt would the belt be warrantied at 70K (old belt) or 30K (new belt). So if your position was that a new timing belt cannot fail at 30K, then your beef is with the manufacturer seems to me, unless you can convince someone that the dealer must warranty everything he sells beyond the manufacturer of the product.

IF #2, that the belt slipped, screwing up the cam/crank timing, and thus bending only a few valves (one would presume all valves bent with a broken belt), then we would suspect the belt or the tensioner. It is my understanding that a new tensioner is not part of a short block, either--so the tensioner if new or used, has the same issues as a new or used timing belt. The only dealer culpability here would be in assembly, seems to me anyway.

If #3, hydro-locking, this could be a better case for you, in that it implies head gasket failure, which is certainly part of the short block operation.

As you can see, determining cause or neglect isn't going to be so easy. Did the dealer install the old tensioner incorrectly? If so, would this take 30K miles to malfunction? Was the head gasket defective, causing hydrolock in two cylinders? What is the evidence available for head gasket failure?

If the belt broke or slipped, was it a new belt or the old one? How do you find this out? If the old belt, what case do you have? If a new belt with 30K, who is responsible for its breakage?

So I feel your best course of action is to determine what caused the failure because sooner or later someone is going to ask you to show evidence of that. This is what the whole thing boils down to IMO.

Right now, it doesn't seem that this has been determined, and therefore, placing the blame seems premature at this point.

Hope this helps to clarify the issue somewhat for all sides concerned.

tboner · August 2003

Is is possible the timing belt slips on only one bank of cylinders, accounting for only 4 exhaust valves.

Consider this possiblity, the "funky" sealer used on one bank allowed oil to leak on the exhaust cam gear (I'm not that familiar with the Suby Boxer engine, so maybe there is only one cam.) Timing belt slips on greasy gear.

Now that cam is "late" and the pistons smack the exhaust valves as they don't get out of the way in time.

Just speculation, but I do have an active imagination. Of course non of this helps him solve his problem.

TB
Interested in St Louis

nygreg · August 2003

If the engine was put back together with alleged improper sealant, then the whole job loses credibility. In that case, you can almost guarantee that the "old" belt was reused and the tensioner possibly damaged when reinstalling (Tensioner needs to be compressed over a 3 minute period to avoid damaging). I agree that the complaint is with the dealer and not SOA, however, in the eyes of the average customer - the dealer is SOA as they don't know the relationship between the two.

Greg

Mr_Shiftright · August 2003

I still don't see a strong argument here I'm afraid, since "improper sealant" could hardly last 30K miles. Your best bet would be a mangled belt tensioner, -- even more swell and wonderful would be a chain tensioner with vice grip marks on it or sheered bolts holding it on.

But a broken belt only proves a broken belt, not negligence.

Now a wrong part installed, or installed backwards, that would be something convincing.

Or any failed metallurgy might be of interest.

I guess what I'm saying is that the burden of proof rests with you. Your broken engine, in total while dramatic, isn't by itself evidence of wrong doing. It's the little pieces inside that hold the answer (or not).

I agree with you here, the argument is only with the dealer, not with SOA, in my opinion.

Also, having the engine disassembled outside the dealership weakens the case considerably, as the dealer can claim damage during disassembly.

subaru_team · August 2003

as I've posted before, I cannot comment on individual cases, so, while I hate to leave you hanging, I can tell you that I am "involved" with both situations. To clarify - this is related to two different situations. One vehicle has the bent valves, the other has a hole in the block.

What I can say is this. Neither situation appears to be related to manfacturing defects or dealer negligence. I'm saying this so folks don't get into a panic about their Subaru engines.

We're working with both gentlemen involved.

Thanks!

Patti

nygreg · August 2003

here. Love my little 2.5. It seems to like the Mobil 1 too.

Greg

corancher · August 2003

My experience with stripped/broken timing belts on a highly over-square interference engine was that only the exhaust valves got bent. Maybe due to relative valve size or maybe geometry or both, but the cam wasn't turning and only the exhaust valves bent.

Happened at idle both times, once just after starting. No noise or other sign of what had happened. Engine just died.

ateixeira · August 2003

We currently have 4 Subies in our family, all EJ25 engines. That's 64 valves. ;-)

-juice

lreinstein · August 2003

to report that I have had some good converations with her and with the Subaru Team. I believe she is making a sincere effort to help. However I will report more on this later when I have more information and the resolution to the dilemna is clear.

Current status is that my local mechanic has just completed the complete valve job, and that the engine is operating fine.

It may not be possible to determine "fault" at this point. Was it an improper installation of the Short Block by the Subaru Dealership here on Long Island? I certainly have some reasons to believe this, including their rather inappropriate and unhelpful behavior towards me after they learned of my engine failure.

Or, was it my local mechanic's fault when he did the 60K service which included replacement of the timing belt. He is a high quality mechanic whose business specializes in Japanese imports, and he (of course) claims that this is impossible, and that everything was done properly, and that the belt could not have slipped since there is a hydraulic tensioner.

Who knows?

Larry

ateixeira · August 2003

Thanks for keeping us posted.

-juice

Mr_Shiftright · August 2003

I would have to say that given the evidence at hand which you present (which may be very incomplete at this point) suggests that more "fault" lies with your mechanic since he was the last one with his mitts on the timing belt. This doesn't mean he necessarily did anything "wrong" but rather that his hands were the last ones in the engine, so this rather absolves the dealer---or at least lets the dealer off the hook in my eyes, were I some kind of arbitrator having to settle the case. The dealer's "attitude" is far less incriminating than your mechanic's physical entry into the very area where the problem might have originated.

If I had more info I might think differently, but this is how it strikes me at the moment.

Rather than look for the guilty,however, I would encourage you to chalk it up to bad luck, which just happens to everyone now and then.

Subaru Outback: Catastrophic Engine Failure at 70K Miles---Need Advice!

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