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Comments
http://www.michelinchallengedesign.com/PDFs/Release%20Archives/HISTORY_2.pdf
All the Japanese had to do was let the Germans do the pioneering and make the mistakes, then simply emulate the technology (having the benefit of learning from the errors the Germans made). If the two countries switched positions, Germany would probably have the most reliable vehicles on the market, too.
This can be seen with computers too. IBM produced the first real "PC" -- everyone else just copied it. Even Microsoft purchased their "Internet Explorer" browser technology. (they did not invent "IE")...In fact, most of what Microsoft sells was purchased from other companies. (Spreadsheet, word-processor, disk-defragmenter...etc) Even the idea of Icons and a mouse was stolen from Apple!
Another fact you did not touch on is that Asian cars are DESIGNED to be pretty much ignored. German vehicles NEED to be treated with respect and maintained per reccomendations. In return, you get a more civilized vehicle with far better handling and creature-comforts.
I wonder how many people realize that the german company BOSCH actually INVENTED the sparkplug. To this very day, BOSCH sparkplugs are superiour to the others in many ways. From the copper core and platinum tips to the nickle finish, everyone else is just copying what BOSH has done for 30 years. BOSCH sparkplugs even use a special ceramic and has extra ribs on it to reduce hi-voltage leakage.
Innovation is great, but cars are still fundamentally transportation first. I would say leave it to luxury brands to innovate. Non-luxury brands need to focus on making reliable cars that are cheap to operate and not too expensive to buy in the first place. Once they get THAT part down pat, then they can afford to experiment a bit...
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Bob
but it just isn't true in my case. My late 80s and early 90s Hondas and Toyotas were just as reliable as they are today. And never needed replacement window switches or any other warranty work.
I am not saying all VWs suck, just that CR doesn't either. Rather it should be one of many data points you use. The VW coil pack problem was one thing, but power windows have been in cars for ages - nothing innovative there - and it was just plain old cost-cutting cheapness that gave VW problems there. If the surface is glossy (best interiors in the industry) but the substance underneath is riddled with holes, is the consumer getting the best value for their dollar?
I had a very interesting discussion with a co-worker last week, about her '99 Golf. She loves that car. She has had any many problems with it, both during warranty and at her own expense (windows, lights, wheel bearings, oil consumption, several occasions when it would not start and had to be towed, including two while it was still under warranty). Because she had a very responsive and competent dealer, the repairs have not bothered her and she is thinking of replacing it with an Audi. She has over 100K miles now. Her husband has a Toyota truck, and she chuckled and said that if he had had one tenth the problems she has had with her Golf, his truck would have been gone ages ago, because he has a lot less patience for those kinds of things than she does. Instead, his truck is pushing 200K miles with a minimum of fuss. Talk about an allegory for the market at large!
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Huh? CR reliability reports are based on reports what owners have found to be the case with their cars, be it good or bad. How is that meaningless? Sounds to me like your shooting the messenger, and ignoring the message.
Bob
Can VW USA stay the course long enough to build the "premium" small car they think we USAers might want, given that Toyota and Honda are already building them at higher quality levels and at a lower cost?
Or do they truly believe the thrill of Euro performance overweighs poor quality and frequent repairs? Two other Euro companies went bust from this approach.
I should add my first car was a VW Super beetle and still have a soft spot for the brand, if it finally decides the USA market is worth its time and delivers to it a quality car again. Hopefully VW can climb out of the hole it has dug itself into.
I see that VW has the $239/mo lease deal already (with quite a bit of money down) for the 2.5. I wonder if it is helping. Sales do not seem to have trended upwards since the 2.5 was introduced, but it has only been a couple of months I guess. I have seen two on the street now.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
A VW will, in other words, have 24 more problems per 100 cars than one considered to be "average." All this means is that someone would have to buy 4 Volkswagens to get one more problem than an "average car." So what? Unfortunately, many people regard CR as Gospel, and it has really hurt VW in the past few years.
No question their manufacturing is awesome...but invention :confuse:
- double turbo, as in one small one big in the same row working together and no it's not a twin turbo(BMW 535d)
- iDrive (like it or not a lot of them are copying it: Acura, Audi, Infinity...)
- laser guided cruise control (first seen on MB S-Class???)
- head up display (this was first on the Corvette)
- movable lights (this was Lexus...)
- well okay this doesn't apply to the US so much, but Diesel technology...only Europe
- Hybrid, I give that to Toyota...
I can really just recall these...so anyone???
"VW executives in Germany said the weak dollar meant America was not the best market for a European carmaker. VW has made a conscious decision to ship fewer cars to North America and focus on more profitable parts of the world"
This kinda sounds like bull, doesn't it? Not only do they sell the $25K Audi A3 here with way more equipment at the same price AND the turbo 2.0, and stocking manual shifts in droves by the way (dealers are complaining that VW is only sending them loaded Jetta automatics, in order to maximize profit), but BMW has barely raised the price of the new 3-series despite loading on a WHOPPING load of additional standard equipment on the new model.
And yet, every indication is that the new Passat due here in a few months is also going to climb in price by a good 20-25%.
Seems like it is just VW that can't sell cars profitably in America. Why is that? And what a change in attitiude on their part, when just a few weeks ago they were talking about how the new Jetta would be the first part of a concerted effort to turn things around and stop the bleeding for VWoA. Jetta sales must be way off what they were hoping.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Well, "fan 45-year-old." If the alarmist prophets over in the Car Lounge are correct and VW eventually pulls out of the US market, I have 3 plans: A) Attempt to import one, anyway, Start driving Audis (provided they don't go, too), or C) retire in Mexico, which would be nice since you can see the sun there more than 4 days out of a month.
(I live in Wisconsin. Florida's license plates say: THE SUNSHINE STATE. Wisconsin's should say, THE OVERCAST STATE.)
http://www.ieee-virtual-museum.org/collection/event.php?id=3456880&lid=1
The response given these circumstances has been very lukewarm at best. I sell Audis at a decent sized VW-Audi store. I've been observing new Jetta sales. Very, very slow. A few are rolling out the door, but nowhere near what was anticipated internally. The main reaction seems to be like this: the real traditional VW fans think the car has become too Japanese and the majority of them don't like the new body style and several other issues. A few conquest buyers like it and are buying it, but not many. A very few VW fans are so loyal they are buying it anyway although they aren't crazy about the looks. Also, there are other issues, for instance, when you shut the door now, you hear a "BOING", it sounds very tinny compared to the outgoing model. The sheetmetal seems thinner and more like a cheap car. Myself ( long time VW owner of about a dozen or so ) and many others at our dealership along with a significant number of clients agree very much with the Edmunds review that something has been lost in translation with this car, the "VW-ness" has been distilled out.
At least in my area, the general reaction is one of disappointment. Kind of like when you read a good book, then go to the movie and are let down. It is a great car on paper, and the interior is nice, but something is missing. The gaudy chrome front end does not help. It would look better on a larger car, perhaps, but I've seen photoshops of the car with a body-color nose and the reaction is much more positive.
If anything, the market on the old Jettas shot up when the new one came out as folks scrambled to get those while they could. This move upscale with the Jetta is very calculated by VW, and by early results ( 2 months on market almost now ) if I was VW I would be concerned. However, the new Passat, which I think will be a lot better car, is on the horizon and should help.
Commercially Honda pioneered the use of variable valve timing. But maybe it was used long before that in F1.
A lot of engine innovations originate in F1, which is dominated by Europeans, so you'd expect many of these innovations have European origin. But the Japanese are well represented in F1 by Honda and Toyota. Right now Honda reputedly makes the most powerful F1 engine, followed by Renault and Ferrari.
Great ideas, that don't work properly or reliably, are useless, and if anything are counterproductive. The Germans (and other Europeans too) have shot themselves in the foot many times over by releasing "Beta" versions of great ideas. I don't know about you, but I've been a guinea pig with Euro cars several times over before I got smart and gave up on them. My ownership experience with German and Swedish cars was pure hell. Frankly I could care less who "invented" something. I just want it to work—properly and reliably.
Bob
Anyway I saw a new Jetta in person and I think it looks much better in person. It's awesome! But yeah, the reliability thing still scares me. I know a lot of people here are saying that CR is unfair to VW, but there are just so many real-life stories that make CR's reports sound accurate. If I include people who've written about their experiences in these forums, I still have to say that more than half the VW owners I know have had problems with theirs. And it's never just one problem, but many.
Congrats on having good experiences; kill the people who've had bad ones (car "accident" due to system failure?), and I won't be able to make the same argument.
http://www.edmunds.com/future/2006/buick/lucerne/100487860/photos.html?tid=edmunds.f.revie- w.leftsidenav..2.Buick*
It's also very Japanese looking too. Hmmm... Is VW is now trying to copy the Japanese?
I'm sure it will be the best Jetta to date. Still, I'd take a several year wait-and-see before thinking about buying one.
Bob
As for Jetta V, not only does its move upmarket leave a big hole for VW fans looking in the $18-20K range, it kind of strands the Beetle as the glaringly low end VW model. But no worries - I am sure if this model even makes it to a gen II, it will increase 25% in price under the new "VW plan".
I have seen articles listing the expected price of a loaded next-gen Passat as being over $35K. To me, that says base price won't be much less than $26-27K. For a Passat?
I appreciate that VW is trying to increase profits to get VWoA out of the red, and that they are willing to sacrifice sales and become more of a niche brand if that is what it takes to accomplish that purpose, but they should remember you do have to sell SOME cars, or there will be NO profit!
bricknord: I know a couple of people who like VWs, one recently had a Golf for several years, and they both seem to agree that the new Jetta "grew up a little too much". Everyone seems to agree it looks very much like a Corolla. Although one or two folks have mentioned they like the chrome on the front - go figure! I am personally not surprised that sales have been lukewarm.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Their cars are beautiful, fun to drive, and complete turds on wheels. Everything electrical failed in my Jetta at least once.
What's funny is you may think that my experience is "anecdotal" (which it is), but how anecdotal is it, really? Do you read the Toyota forums full of people with nothing but vitriol in their hearts towards that brand of car? No? Think about it.
Bob
If VW didn't sink billions into these projects, it could compete better with the Civics and Accords of the world!
I think the German equivalent of AAA gave top reliability ratings to Japanese makes. German makes, including VW, receive middling to poor ratings. That was in Automobile issue a few months back.
I'm inclined to agree with you... :shades:
Maybe I'm just old-fashioned, but when I think VW, I expect an MSRP in the Toyota/Honda or Chevy/Ford price range, not BMW/Mercedes/Lexus territory like the Toureg, Phaeton, and the new Passat
What does VW have Audi for, if they are going to move the VWs into that price range?
The Golf V would have to be at least $2500 cheaper than a comparably equipped Jetta for me to consider it. Alas, I fear it won't be. Maybe dealers will be discounting because of enjoying hugely increased sales on the new Passat.... :-P
Dovetailing on what I wrote earlier, I do wonder what will become of the New Beetle. Gen 2? No gen 2? Just make the same car for a decade?
Maybe VW could sell some of its ridiculous exotic brands and share the proceeds with VWoA if it is so interested in "stopping the bleeding". Maybe then it could stop stiffing us on manual shift base models, and put a less expensive model or two in the North American mix.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Also, in Subaru's case, they don't already have another "upscale" brand, like VW has with Audi. Just IMO, VW should be maybe $30K, $40K max....leave anything higher than that to Audi...
In Europe, they have a 4-door GTI. We won't get that here, because it would compete directly with the A3 (being pretty much the exact same car). So I expect we will only get Golfs with the 2.5 here, when Golf V arrives.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Didn't Bosch supply the infamous coilpacks for VW/Audi?
http://cars.com/go/news/Story.jsp?section=news&story=051705storycAP&subject=recent&referer- =&aff=national
And they are also getting complaints about their hybrid Prius:
http://cars.com/go/news/Story.jsp?section=news&story=051705storyaAP&subject=recent&referer- =&aff=national
You don't see them getting killed in the media. God forbid if VW had these problems - they would be basically run out of this country on a rail... :mad:
And complaints don't necessarily mean anything in the end -- look within the VW/Audi house on the Audi 5000 "sudden acceleration" brouhaha of the late 80s as probably the most striking example.
What's ironic, and that I forgot to mention above, is that Consumer Reports will classify a VW that has had a coilpack and window regulator failure as having twice as many problems as another brand whose sole problem was a blown engine at 80K miles. I'm not knocking the Japanese; as a whole they obviously make excellent cars, but Volkswagens are perceived to be much worse than they actually are. For example, VW's are "notorious" for electrical problems, but Hondas, at least in my part of the country, have rust problems. Now when I say that, I usually get a reply that goes something like, "Maybe 20 years ago, dude, but not now." I invite anyone to come to Wisconsin. About every third Civic and Accord I see, including models as new as about 2002, has at least the beginnings of rust in the wheelwells of the rear quarter. To me, $3000 of body work negates a lack of "electrical" problems...............
The new Jetta doesn't ring my bell like the last one immediately did. But VW has sent me a $50 Home Depot card certificate for taking a test drive of any 2005.5 Jetta. I will report my observations next week.
The EXACT SAME DESIGN is still used (with better MFG practices) and they are working just fine.
I personally know six people that have VW's None of them have been problem free. The worst is a poor friend of mine whos jetta has had three... count um "3" engines under warranty. That plus all the other problems it has had make her ready to bite nails. If the CEO of VW was standing next to her I bet she would punch him dead in the face. All the good stories in the world will never take the bad taste out of her mouth. :lemon:
I'd get really upset over an engine or tranny failure, but given time, I'd forgive the car. If I had to forgive the car for minor problems every three months... well I wouldn't.
Bingo!
We were having this same discussion in the 2006 Passat thread where price is also coming up. My take is that if VW wants to go upscale then they'll have to accept lower sales volumes. That said I think VW needs to forget about going upscale. What they need to do is give their cars that classic VW formula. Better styling and a more connected driving experience than a comparably priced American or Japanese cars. This is what made the previous Jetta and especially Passat popular. If the Passat is a 35-38K car it isn't going to sell enough units to pull VWoA out of the read, imo.
Why VW made the Phaeton is beyond me, though I think the car itself is brilliant and defines what a luxury car is. They really thought nobody would cross shop it with the A8. Wrong.
M
If I were going to spend the enormous bucks on a 12-cylinder car, I am sure I would look for something that looks snappier than this (and there are a few good choices out there, aren't there?!).
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Mentioned here:
http://www.detnews.com/2005/autosinsider/0506/02/A01-201462.htm
at the very end.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
I know you are mostly referring the the prices of the optioned up versions...But we got our Jetta Value Edition with ATX and ESP for about $50 under invoice (just under $19,000). But with these poor sales, perhaps we should have waited for some better incentives to be put in place.
I wonder what will happen with Passat sales if it also rises in price by such a large amount. I certainly don't think the new Golf and GTI are going to do much for the overall sales numbers - they have been tiny contributors in the past. And then nothing will be new at VW for ANOTHER three years, unless they decide to do "New Beetle, MkII". The minivan that may or may not be coming for 2007 will probably do little for the bottom line - VW vans have never been big sellers.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)