Mazda RX-8 Prices Paid and Buying Experience

graphicguy · October 2003

habitat's assessment is "dead on". I would run whatever the manufacturer suggests (in this case, premium for the RX8).

While the manual says you can use regular in the 8, Mazda say for best performance and economy, premium should be used.

To save a few bucks, why not use what will give you the most performance and economy?

This has been debated in another RX8 forum. There's nothing conclusive about the long term affects of using regular, but I wouldn't want to ruin a $30K car because I "chintzed" on the fuel.

qbrozen · October 2003

I've used premium in all of my cars for the past 10 years. Even our 4-banger Forester. As stated above, for the money saved, its not even worth it to me to lose 1 hp or risk dirtier injectors. Its such a small per-tankfull difference that I don't see the point in using anything else.

By the way, 89 octane is the worst deal of them all. Think about it, 10 cents more per gallon for 2 more octane (89 vs. 87) and another 10 cents more for an additional 4 (93 octane - if you don't live in Cali, I guess).

carliker · October 2003

Though I wouldn't make a habit out of it, using 89 or 87 (plus/regular) every once in awhile is not going to harm your vehicle. Realistically, there are times that gas is sky high and the savings does make a difference. However, most people either get regular or premium gas which means the 89 Octane plus gasoline has been sitting there for awhile.

kkollwitz · October 2003

I suggest trying a half-tank of regular. My guess is you will not like the way the engine feels running on anything less than premium, and will find premium's extra cost is worth it every time you pull away from a red light.

rorr · October 2003

Unless the engine is tuned to actually gain some benefit from the higher octane fuel, you won't see any additional performance. Also, as far as I know, the typical detergents added to fuel to help clean the injectors are in ALL grades of fuel and not just the premium. You don't need to run premium just to keep the injectors clean.

However, for high performance (typically either high compression or turbo/supercharged) engines, the higher octane fuel is necessary to prevent detonation ('pinging') when the engine is under a load (hard acceleration). Many engines which 'recommend' high octane for the best performance/economy WILL run just fine on a lower octane but the engine management computers will adjust the engine timing (resulting in a loss of power AND economy) when the lower octane fuels are used.

This has been discussed many times over other threads but the jist of it is this: higher octane fuels don't have more 'bang' than lower octane. They simply withstand higher compression without preigniting than lower octane fuels thus are better suited to high compression engines. If you don't have a high compression motor, high octane fuel will do NOTHING for you.

qbrozen · October 2003

to prevent knocking when using lower-grade fuel, the engine management system retards the timing. This, by definition, means the spark will occur at a less-than-optimum time. Less-than-optimum means lower power.

Now, I always took that to also mean lower efficiency, thereby more carbon deposits left behind, which, of course, is the cause of dirtier injectors (regardless of detergents). This may be unfounded, but I think it just makes sense. I could be totally wrong, but have yet to find definitive proof either way.

Regardless of cleanliness, I would like my engine to always run at its optimum settings and not need to generate the spark at a less-appropriate time. And, actually, many modern engines have higher compression ratios than the old 8:1 that 87 octane was designed for. If you do have 8:1 or lower, than you are correct, the higher octane should do nothing for you.

rorr · October 2003

Makes perfect sense to me.

I had quite forgotten the dirtiness aspect of retarding the timing when running a lower than 'recommended' octane fuel. When I had read your earlier post regarding your desire to run a higher octane fuel in your Forester in order to not sacrifice a single HP or dirty your injectors, I had assumed you were referring to the detergents in the fuel.

I was not aware that Suburu recommends premium for the Forester.

carliker · October 2003

What are the odds that the high octane fuel is just a deal made up between the fuel and automotive companies? I'm always wondering about such things.

qbrozen · October 2003

subaru doesn't, but partly its just out of habit that i do it for my vehicles now and the other part is that, in that particular vehicle, my wife was running regular, but she started complaining of a smell. She tried premium and the smell went away. I never pursued it any further because if the wife is not complaining, I'm happy.

smason1978 · October 2003

Has anyone leased a Mazda RX8 recently.

I am about to lease one and would like to know what money rates / residuals you got. Did you go with another bank?

Thanks!

eyeswide · October 2003

As anyone who has ever read one of my postings will attest I am totally paranoid, being thus qualified I will take a stab at

"The Octane Conspiracy!"
Now as everyone knows gasoline comes from crude oil. That oil has to be refined to produce the gasoline. The highest octanes are separated and hoarded for the use of multi-national corporations, airline companies, and of course the Military Industrial Complex. The dreggs are left for guys like you and me. To keep you distracted the inner circle makes sure that there are three almost indistinguishable grades made from their slops. The common man is then kept guessing and debating what the additives and octane differences really do, while the rich manipulators laugh their way to the bank!

rorr · October 2003

I sincerely doubt that the premium in your Forester makes any more power or has any less deposits than regular does. Manufacturers are spending billions these days trying to make their engines as clean as possible. To that end, the designs are optimized for particular grades of fuel (the 'recommended' grade by the manufacturer). You stated yourself that reduced power and increased deposits would occur if the timing was retarded. But if the engine is DESIGNED to run on regular, no such adjustment to the timing would be made, therefor no loss of power or increased deposits.

All that being said, if the wife isn't complaining, I say the extra 0.10/gal is a small price to pay. If only all spousal complaints could be so easily addressed.......8^)

qbrozen · October 2003

even perceived value is better than no value.

modcon10 · October 2003

If you are searching for an RX-8 in the DC area, definitely avoid Brown's Mazda of Alexandria. Here's my sad tale:
Went in Monday night and spent nearly two hours negotiating a price for an RX-8. It was a very good price (from my perspective). The car arrived two days later, so I headed over to pick it up. After I finished my PDI, the manager came over and said that the price we had previously agreed upon was too low and that I would have to pay them $500 more to take delivery. Naturally, I told them what they could to with that -- so it looks like I'll be going with an RSX. But if you negotiate with Brown's, realize that they are totally dishonest and feel no obligation whatsoever to honor their quoted price (which I have in writing -- hello lawsuit!!). Until you actually get the keys, their offers are worthless.

kkollwitz · October 2003

Thanks for walking on the bad deal.
BTW, here in Greenville SC, the RX8s are piling up on the dealer lot like Camaros in their last year of production.....

carliker · October 2003

You either have a great experience with a Mazda dealership or a really bad one. Your story doesn't surprise me at all. I preordered mine back in March and agreed to pay a price. When I went to pick it up, they tried to stick me with a rust protection package that would cost $600.00. At first, they said I couldn't buy the car if I wasn't willing to pay for that. I said I was going to walk and they eventually did what was right. I'm glad you walked. Salespeople can go back on a quote I believe as long as it's not advertised to the public -- so I don't know about the lawsuit (unless you were just kidding). It's just not professional and bad business!

graphicguy · October 2003

Leases vary dramatically by financial institutions, credit ratings, out of pocket payments and even part of the country you live in with regards to residuals and money factors.

Although, past RX7s hold their value extremely well, I don't know that there are enough out there on the used market that anyone can make a prediction for the RX8.

rroyce, the resident guru over at the "Real World Trade-in Values" thread has said he's seen a few used ones at the used car auctions. He says they are all selling at or near MSRP.

Dealers don't keep stock very long as they are sold within 24-48 hours of them hitting their lots. Some dealers are still filling pre-orders. Trying to find unsold stock using Mazda's WEB site is hopeless since they don't update it regularly. As an example, my particular car is listed as available at my dealer even though I took delivery of it 2 months ago.

I've heard of "Great deals" from some postings here, but whenever you try to do a little research, those "great deals" seem to somehow evaporate.

Even seeing some "in-stock" units at dealers tends to be a crap shoot once you find out that most have been sold and are just awaiting prep and delivery.

smason1978 · October 2003

I picked up my RX8 (Manual, Grand Touring, Spoiler, Appearance, 6CD, Tint (dealer added) Nav) today using the Mazda S-Plan. All the dealers in St. Louis are taking it..and I guess thats because there are maybe 50+ total sitting on all the lots.

Just so others can have an idea of what I got.

My lease went through Chase Bank, not Mazda. 36 and 39 months had the same residual (54%). I took the 39 months (trade off was I dropped to 14k miles a year, which is still 45k total miles). Money Rate was .00219, about the same as a BMW 3 series...of course the residual is lower.

On a side note he mentioned that the Mazda lease rate was about .00285.

My only concern was that www.leasecompare.com was showing me .00202 money rates...but my money rate is close to the BMW and the difference is $228 over the life of the lease- so not a big deal.

Anyway, an overall great experience at Bommarito St. Peters. Ask for Gary Panus.

audia8q · October 2003

sorry to jump in late on this...but I got a service bulletin from Mazda this week expressing the concerns they have with using less than premium fuel....expect performance to decrease and engine noise to increase substantially. Emissions output will also increase.

graphicguy · October 2003

Not surprising....why people would buy a $30K car and then try to short change themselves by using less than required fuel grades in it baffles me.

BTW....I just got 27 MPG (actually it was 26.7 MPG) on my last all highway tankful with the cruise set at 75 MPH most of the way. I never run anything less than "premium".

carliker · October 2003

Premium should be used, but once in a long while, I'll put in a lower grade if gas prices go nuts like it did a year ago. I won't do this consistently, however. If I feel up 20 times during the summer, I'd do it maybe once or twice at the most. Sometimes I just hate how the gas stations just gouge people. It becomes a principle sort of thing. Bottom line, this is your second most expensive (and some cases the most), so you need to treat it as such.

modcon10 · October 2003

Thanks much for the support -- I spoke to Mazda today and while they were pretty taken back by the situation, they indicated that there was little they could do.

Just to clear up any misconceptions about your rights in such a situation, here's my legal op (I'm a lawyer -- which doesn't make the info. below necessarily right, but it is correct to my knowledge).

If you receive an offer from a dealer, get it in writing and also get an expiration date written on the offer (good until MM/DD/YY). Save a copy of the offer. The good until expiration date will offer some protection against the old "bait and switch" routine.

If you elect to accept the offer, try to get a manager's signature or at least confirm the deal with the manager. A written agreement is best, but an oral agreement is also valid. A handshake with the manager confirming the deal is also very helpful.

At this point, you have reached a valid, binding contract with the dealer. That contract may only be modified by mutual agreement. In other words, if the dealer refuses delivery (my situation) or insists upon an "optional" service (carliker's situation), you have legal recourse. Despite what the manager may tell you, car dealerships do not get to breach contracts in our society -- really. Hope this is of some assistance.

qbrozen · October 2003

so will you take any action?
is the result worth the trouble? does taking legal action only force them to abide by the contract or do you get more out of it? of course, if it only allows you to get the car at that price, then its really not worth it because the dealership still gets the sale and you still "get" to buy the car.

carliker · October 2003

I would at least talk to the general manager at the dealership. Since you have something signed or quoted to you, the general manager has nothing to stand on at all. If the GM has any kind of customer relationship skills, you could probably pull off even a better deal. They are lucky you don't take legal steps!

modcon10 · October 2003

Definitely, good points/questions. I would prefer not to take legal action as it can be fairly time consuming and I'll almost certainly end up getting an RSX (unless they have a sudden change of heart) when I would've preferred the RX-8 at the agreed upon price.

That said, I am entitled to be "made whole" for the dealer's breach. I'll argue that this entitles me to the "benefit of the bargain" which is the difference between the MSRP and the agreed upon price (IMO) and additonally, I'll seek treble damages under the state's consumer fraud statute. And punitives, if possible.

I'm hoping that the GM gets involved and stops this nonsense -- the woman I spoke with at Mazda's consumer line indicated that she would attempt to speak with the GM, but I'm not holding out much hope.

Thanks again for the feedback!! It's a great release of my frustration to be able to hash through all this.

habitat1 · October 2003

Your experience with Browns Mazda is similar to mine with Browns Honda in Arlington. In late 2001 I went there on the verbal promise that they would sell me a S2000 for $32,000 with NO additional processing fees, dealer ad-ons etc. Of course, when I got there, they tried to renegotiate to full MSRP, claiming they thought I meant a leftover 2001 instead of a brand new 2002. I had anticipated the bait and switch and had made an appointment with Sheehy Honda for later that day. I had an hour to kill, so I let Browns draw up all the papers, go through the pre-delivery explanation of the car etc. Then I ripped up their contract, walked out and got the car from Sheehy for exactly $32k with free wheel locks and a couple of other do-dads.

I did drive an RX8 at Browns when I was in for my 15k mile service last week. Great car, but I'd never buy anything from Browns.

P.S. On the legal front, it had always been my understanding that to make a contract a legally binding "two-party" contract, there had to be some "consideration" from the other (in your case, buying) side. Like a deposit. Which is why you see a lot of real estate contracts written with a $1 dollar payment and the statement "in exchange for good and valuable consideration". I think Browns has a poor business reputation and lack of good faith/ethics that will come back to haunt them. But it sounds like from a legal perspective, that your "contract" with them wasn't a legally binding two way contract, but rather a written offer. Those are not usually held up as legally binding in court (i.e. similar to a non-binding letter of intent).

I wouldn't waste my time fighting them. You have already put this board on notice that they are not worthy of our business and I fully agree with you.

modcon10 · October 2003

Sorry Habitat, I have to disagree.

The reason Brown's engages in this type of behavior is because they are counting on the customers that they screwed not "wast[ing] time fighting them." I made it very clear to them that I was going to post this situation in every Mazda discussion board I could find and that didn't faze them in the least. Not at all.

Unfortunately, if we want honest dealers, we have to be willing to take on the dishonest ones. Posting is obviously not a sufficient deterrent.

Oh -- I don't want to clog the board up with a detailed discussion of contract law -- but if you've reached an agreement with a dealer (and have some evidence to back it up), you should be in good shape.

charvel6 · October 2003

I have been a daily reader of this forum for 2 months, and I now have some information I can share. Just took delivery of my new RX-8 this week. MSRP of 34425 (gt,nav,spoiler,app pkg,spare tire kit) for a selling price of 31500. This car was the GSM's personal demo,and had 3002 miles. I had contacted several dealers inside and outside my state (Indiana) to gather pricing info. Was told "sticker" most of the time. Russ Darrow Mazda in Milwaukee was the best price at 1000 over invoice on any RX-8. My local dealer finally decided to price match, offering a 31100 MSRP RX-8 for 29100, and the more equipped one (the demo)for only 195 over invoice. Lease rate was .00202. I did not have a trade in.
These cars can be had for under sticker. Supply and demand. Some dealers have between 25 and 40 RX-8's on their lots. Shop around, and you can save money.
Also, my titanium gray rx is really sweet.

eyeswide · October 2003

Ive been tracking for the last month.
You can download the entire database of Vins for all your local dealers from mazdausa
I made the effort cross check each week to monitor sales, Fact is I see an average of 20 on the lot and 2 sold per week. Bank starts charging a hefty lease fee after 30 days. and dealers get choice of new inventory based upon making sales numbers. Does the word Hindenburgh paint a picture of the pricing future.

graphicguy · October 2003

Problem with checking stock from mazdausa is the inaccuracies.

My vin is listed as "available" from my local dealer even though it was sold to me over two months ago.

I think the Mazda web site lists all cars the dealer ordered, whether they are sold or still available. That's why it looks like the dealers have lots in inventory, when in fact, they may not have but a few for sale.

eyeswide · October 2003

I have checked multiple dealers, and I see the transition out of 10 percent per week. I see the transition in of a slightly higher percent. It adds up to increasing stocks. The data is not static. It is updated regularly and consistantly.

The great thing is anyone can check for themself. I've Got to love the free availability of data.

P.S. I like your posts Graphic, you keep things even. I hope someone else runs the test for a month or so. That would be very scientific, independant verification.

audia8q · October 2003

the minute the car is scheduled to be built it goes on the consumer dealer locater....even though the car is a minumum of 60-120 days from hitting the USA and dealership lots....Also mazda only does allocation once a month, so once allocation runs (which it just did on the 15th) it will show the increase of ALL last months orders in one day...creating the illusion there is alot of unsold units when its just the standard stock/factory orders for 700+ dealers in the USA.
also like graphichguy mentioned...the sold units dont always come off right away. Sometimes the lag is as much as 3 weeks.

So to try and base your theory on the consumer locater without knowing how mazda does business is flawed.

graphicguy · October 2003

Thanks!

Every car made has compromises. In a perfect world, I would love to have a 500HP car that gets 100 MPG. That's not going to happen in my lifetime, though. The combination of performance, handling, comfort, visceral feel, quietness, high quality build that the RX8 offers at the price point is something of a milestone to me. It's not everybody's cup of tea, though.

While I am a big proponent of the RX8, I try not to wear blinders (sometimes successfuly, sometimes not). There are some things that could have been better with the release of the car.....

--the well publicized HP issue (I hope whoever made that blunder within Mazda is wearing a WalMart vest, now)
--with the engine sitting so close to the passenger compartment, there is some heat generated down around your feet (good in winter, bad in summer) but, if they would have put the engine further up in the front the 50/50 weight couldn't have been achieved
--MPG issues...although MPG gets better and better as we pile on the miles
--pricing seems to be all over the map depending on region. I don't believe any of these are being sold anywhere near invoice as some have said.

From my perspective, these are my nitpicks, however. Given the significance of the car's introduction, these issues are minor. Plus, those that were the early adopters (like myself) had the opportunity to give the car back. I wonder how many people who buy a new car...any new car...given the opportunity to give their cars back after driving it for a couple of months, would do so?

Just a guess, but I'd say the percentage would fall right in line with those that sent their RX8s back (about 2% as best I can tell).

Mis/dis...information is one of my "pet peeves". Which is why I come off vocal when I read some of this stuff. While not an expert, I've made it a point to gather as much information as possible about the car, it's quirks, it's manufacturing, it's sales, it's performance, etc. Some of the reports are legitimate...some are just hard to be believed.

I have no intent to hurt anyone's feelings. If I've done so, my sincere appologies.

audia8q · October 2003

graphicguy....I understand your frustation with wrong information and how these tall tales seem to get bigger and bigger. It's also amazing to see people having such a strong desire to believe fictional information. oh well. The battle continues.

graphicguy · October 2003

...keep fighting the good fight.

I've heard some pretty crazy stuff regarding the RX8. Everything from Ford killing off the RX8 2 weeks after its first shipment to it having an interior made up of Taurus parts (none of any of it true).

You're right...it keeps getting more bizarre.

audia8q · November 2003

We had a guy in the showroom on Sat who was totally convinced the "turbo" RX-8 will be out anytime and that I'm witholding the information. He read it on the internet, where he gets all his information. haha

krnl9klink · November 2003

¤ Location & Inventory Seem to Be Quite Tightly Linked. If You Live in an Area with Early Adverse Weather You Might Find an Increase in Numbers Actually on the Lot. However, I've Been Looking for an RX8 for 2 Months, and Even with a Dealer Looking Up and Down the Coast for a Possible Solution, I Have Oly Recently Found a Car Actually At Port Without Buyer. Of Course It's Not My First Choice in Color [Graphite] and I'm Worried About AfterMarket Tinting, But So Far They Do Seem Willing to Deal Below MSRP for 'OnLine Fleet Pricing' as they Call It.

¤ «Front Plate?» Just Wondering If Anyone Has Information on Front Plate Application? The Police in My Home State Have Even Taken to Pulling People Over for Clear Plate Covers So I Know It's Going to Be an Issue. Has AnyOne Done an AfterMarket Tint? If So I Would Be Interested In Advice as I've Seen some Bad AfterMarket Jobs. I've Finally Found a Silver GT/ W/ NAV/Bose/Black&Red & the Rear Spoiler & Appearance But No Tinting. The Dealer Says that They Can't Gaurentee the Tinting Through their Source Which Means they Will Not Consider Including it in the Package. OtherWise Loaded at Aproximtely $32,900? What Do You Think?

graphicguy · November 2003

your price is about right, MSRP would be about $33,100 with NAV. Tinting isn't a factory option...only from after market. there are good ones and there are bad ones.

Most dealers are still taking orders for the exact car you want. Some have a little bit of stock (couple of cars), some don't have any stock at all. Best thing to do would be to go to local dealers and see if/what they have available.

dcaslin · November 2003

I just got my new RX8 2 weeks ago from Schaefer & Strohminger Mazda (SandSAuto) in Baltimore. I test drove one there and about a month later started seriously pricing. Their internet sales manager quoted me the $500 over invoice price, and then the sales rep who I was originally dealing with (Lou) closed the deal.

I got a blue 6speed with Grand Touring package (MSRP 31,100 as you all probably know), then got them to price it $500 over invoice. Since I've been out of college less than 2 years, I was able to add on the $500 recent graduate rebate to get it for invoice. I got them to add on a spoiler and tape deck for $700 (they matched an offer I had from another dealership on the Eastern shore of MD).

The only negative there was the sales manager trying to do a hard-sell of some extra maintenence packages.

All in all it was an excellent buying experience that I would recommend to anyone else. Although I would highly recommend getting a number of quotes from various dealers and getting people to match down.

As a side note, I live in Northern Virginia and wasn't very impressed with the prices or dealers in that area. My favorite was the Mazda dealer near Tyson's corner where all the Grand Touring models came with Navigation systems whether you liked it or not. Then add on an extra $2995 for "features" like leather treatment, stripes, etc.

bigmike5 · December 2003

Got a mail ad from a dealer in Wakefield, MA, where I once had my Aurora serviced while back home. I get more ad material from them than I get locally from dealers here in KY. Anyway, they sell Mazdas, Isuzus, and Olds and their latest mailout say they have 40 RX-8s available from $22,995!!! I find that hard to believe on the price, but I thought I would pass it on. The last mailing I got from them in August or Sept. also said they had 40 available. My local dealer here had like 4 at the highest, haven't checked lately to see how many are left.

gixxer2go · December 2003

All, I just bought a Titanium RX-8 last week with Grand Touring, appearance, polished rotary packages, MSRP of $32,564, for $29,705. I don't know if it'll help everybody, but here's a couple things I did that might be useful (in no particular order):
1. Test drove the car on two different occasions without making a commitment, but definitely left the impression that I'd be back.
2. Test drove other sports cars to make sure the RX-8 was what I really wanted. After driving the 350Z, Mitsubishi 3000GT, and Audi TT, I felt positive the RX-8 far exceeded these cars in comfort, amenities, appearance and value.
3. Decided on a definite option group and color that wasn't the only car in three states ;-). Remained committed to that package and color, but a little flexible on stuff like 1 CD vs. 6 CD, spare tire, cargo net, etc.
4. Had a "best price" guesstimate from the eventual dealer I bought from on the model I wanted.
5. Shopped online and by phone within a 200 mile radius, using the price I got as everybody else's baseline. 200 miles is not far to drive for $500 to $1000. The nearest Mazda dealership will service your new car even if you didn't buy it from them.
6. Said a polite goodbye to dealers who weren't flexible.
7. Kept the source of my low quote to myself even though other dealers asked "where did you get that price?" I assured them I wanted to keep my sources confidential, but that it was a "real price".
8. Had my financing already lined up.
9. Haggled over the phone with the other dealers until I got what I felt was their best price. I got two really good quotes from this.
10. Went back to the original dealer with the new information, and the "bad news" that it looked like I was going to be taking my business elsewhere since I could save a substantial sum ($300 to $500). This puts the ball in their court as to whether to play or not. If you've been polite and forward, they'll probably hang in there with you, but if you've been obnoxious and rude, they may let you walk.
11. Be prepared to walk off the lot, politely but firmly, if they don't meet or beat the best price.
12. Shopped just after the first of the month...I would have thought I'd gotten a better deal, and was told by the dealer that their best price was "month end only", and next week it would be higher. Well, the next week when I bought it, it was $500 lower than their month end price. Surprise, surprise.
13. I didn't push for the final $100 I was looking for...I felt we could stop right there and everybody would be happy. Well, I would be happy anyway.
14. The dealer that had 40 RX-8's said he was getting full sticker on all them. Poor buyers...not enough sense to shop around, or too much disposable income to care.
15. Have about five dealerships within 40 or 50 miles, so I felt good about my prospects.

Well, that's enough. Just to let you know it can be done. Be ready to walk away...even though it's a great car, it's still just a car, and there are lots of them out there for sale. Have fun shopping, and hopefully you get a great deal too!

graphicguy · December 2003

Great post....I'm sure you did fine on your deal.

Now go enjoy the 8.

wildstars · December 2003

I got a grey RX-8 (six speed, medium touring pacakge - I don't like leather seats) a month ago, ended up paying $28,100 for it. Had to order the MP3 player from trussvillee, and had the dealer install it as part of the deal. I live in-between Baltimore, MD, and Washington, DC. I ended up getting it from a Mazda dealer in lancaster, PA.

Found the invoice price on the net and got my financing from lending tree.

I sent emails to all the dealers within about 100 miles. Visited the nearest Mazda dealer, who tried to sell me a Grey with the GT package and 250 miles on it! I decided to myself that I'd pay about a grand under invoice for what amounted to a used car (to me, atleast. it had a delaware mazda dealerships stickers on it), but he wouldn't take it. So, off to lancaster.

I don't know why the dealers are unwilling to deal on RX-8s. I have seen one other on the road. My friends have seen two in our area. The dealers have literally dozens on the lots, and afaik its the same ones. In the case of my local dealership I know their stock level never changed over the six week period I was shopping.

I love the car, but the gas mileage sucks (15mpg!) hopefully it will get better once I get past 2000 miles. Oh, yeah, the tires suck in the snow. And ice. And wet. I gotta get Pirelli snowsports real soon. Budget another $1000 for tires for this car if you live somewhere with weather.

cheezeboy · December 2003

gixxer2go says "even though it's a great car, it's still just a car"......just a car?!?!?...excuse me?!?...hello?.....and then GGuy has to go and agree with him?!?...did the Cubs just win the World Series?...did hell just freeze over?....oh no!!

"just a car"....."just a car"....oh, the inhumanity....

this car is the closest I'll ever get to having a super model as a girlfriend......

scary eh?.......LOLOL!!!......now, to paraphrase Mini, "Let's all go Rotor!"......

carliker · December 2003

And I thought I was the only one who had to get out more. Cheese, do you sleep inside your vehicle at night and smoke cigarettes together the next morning? As remarkable as cars are, I understand what gixxer was saying.

It does irritate me though when people say a car is just there to get you from point A to point B. I feel like slugging them. First, these people usually can't afford more than or have the imagination for anything but a Ford Taurus. Second, they are inconsiderate since they usually say stupid things like this around or to a car enthusiast. I wonder if anyone has driven up at work in their RX-8, felt proud of it, and a co-worker who drives a Geo (or equivalent) responds with a "hey, yeah, I was thinking about getting one of those, but I just can't rationalize spending that much money on a car. My Geo does the job I need it to...gets me from point A to point B. Plus, cars are bad investments. They depreciate, don't you know?" This is when the RX-8 owner just sighs and shakes his or her head like when you see a person wearing black dress socks while wearing shorts. Cars DO represent a part of the person riding in them. Obviously, it shouldn't be the most important thing, but it does tell people a lot about you. With the RX-8, you have fun, it's practical, it's a great value, and of course, it gets you from point A to point B ---in style!

graphicguy · December 2003

LOL...!!!!!

While the RX8 is probably the most significant high volume car announced over the last 5 years or so, it is, after all.....a car.

That said, as carliker said, there are those who view a car as basic transportation and don't understand the fascination we have with them. Those are the same folks who wouldn't even think of doing any "heel and toe" or understand the visceral thrill of running a car to 9K RPMs or taking a corner 20 MPH above the rated speed limit (and shooting out the other end like a slingshot), or "snicking through" 6 speeds of a light, precise transmission, or steering that's almost "telepathic".

The folks that view cars the same way they do their refrigerators, tend to buy Malibus, Accords, Camrys, Tauruses. They couldn't care less about driving dynamics. They just want to get from point A to point B.

Those of us who view getting to the mall or the grocery store an adventure will drive the RX8, S2000, 350Z, Cobra, Corvette (OK, I know most Corvette drivers will never, ever exploit the car's potential, but they do want to look like they can), etc.

Those that want to look like they are excited about driving, but don't want to put out the effort will drive the Celica, Tiburon, Monte Carlo, Grand Prix, Mustang (6 cyl), etc. Nothing wrong with that, either.

I'm sure I will have "ticked" someone off with those assessments. No harm, no foul.

dtran2149 · December 2003

I think it all comes down to an appliance vs. extension-of-self view of cars. I think all RX-8 owners are part of the latter.

Carliker - That Geo story was pretty funny. You can have the same conversation about watches!

Also, I think the concept of value is in the eye of the beholder. I personally value certain intangibles my RX-8 provides me that increases the "value" of the car above quantitative metrics ($/hp, etc). I consider any extra level of payment for an RX-8 over the payment for a basic Geo as part of my discretionary/recreational spend and compare accordingly. So you could argue that, if a Geo monthly payment is $200, then your (RX-8 payment - $200) is the premium you place on the non-appliance/emotional/intangibles you place on the car.

graphicguy · December 2003

I had a similar conversation with a colleague last week. He was "chiding" me for keeping the RX8 in the garage and driving it only in "fair" weather. He also got on me about driving the Civic as a 2nd car. His point was, I'm a walking contradiction. I don't know that I can disagree with him.

If I could find a car that offers me the thrill of driving and style of the RX8 in a $5,000 package (what I shelled out for the Civic), I would jump all over it. Unfortunately, that would mean I'd have to go to the used sports car market. That's something I've been burned by many times in the past. People just don't seem to take care of sports cars as well as they do the more mundane wheels out there. Every used sports car I've ever bought has brought me grief.

After I'm done running the wheels off of the Civic (while the RX8 continues to receive a lot of TLC), I'll probably look at a used Prius (5 years old, or so) to carry on service as the "taken for granted" stepchild in my automotive family.

revdrluv · December 2003

You don't go out and save money by buying a house for yourself to live in that was built poorly, in an unsafe neighborhood, if you can afford Bel-aire.

In most places we live we can't just stop by our homes in the middle of our day. It would be too far to travel. Our cars are like a home away from home for us. It's the only space that is ours that we can have access to at all times. You want that space to be nice, or even enjoyable.

Let all those thrifty folk get pleasure from their "intelligent purchases," while holding the gas pedal to the floor to merge onto the highway. Let them smell the gas fumes coming from their old beater and think about how much they are saving while laughing at us for "throwing our money away."

I swear these sort of people get enjoyment from driving/dealing with their beaters in a sadomasochistic sort of way.

carliker · December 2003

I like this discussion. I basically twisted with this very issue for a few months before I got my car. I had been driving my second car (V6 Mercury Mystique) and thought to myself the amount of money I could save if I just drove that. Though I got to thinking what I was actually saving that money for (whether short or long term). I feel as long as you don't blow all your money on a car (like you shouldn't on any hobby), it's a true valued source of entertainment. Those very people like the guy who remarked to Graphic about why he doesn't drive his RX-8 will go out and shell over $3500 for a flat plasma screen television. At least, you can have an exhilarating time driving and still get a fair amount of the money back you paid to have that much fun. Can't say the same about the television. The same goes for expensive vacations as well.

Graphic, I had the same experience with someone in my office. They wondered why I drove the Mercury and didn't drive the RX-8. I have to drive through roads full of construction dirt on my way to work and the weather doesn't help either. If you are going to put a lot of money into something...whatever it is, of course you are going to do what it takes to care for it. What are you going to do, drive the RX-8, put wear and tear on it, and keep the civic in the garage for a sunny day. These people who make remarks like that don't have an RX-8 waiting for them at home. They have nothing to preserve so they can't understand why you'd get a second car that's equal or better than their first car. One more thing, you said "people who view going to the mall or grocery store as an adventure..." want to drive something exciting. Well, I'd never drive and park at a mall or grocery store. Too many careless people parking minivans. Don't have to tell you about their attitudes about vehicles.

dtran1249 - Nicely put. You are right about reconizing and including the value of pleasure driving gives you. That's exactly what Mr. Geo Driver doesn't consider.

revdrluv - These people don't have any money to "throw away" so why should they laugh. I've observed that people who just decide to save more money and aren't car people don't bother commenting to enthusiasts at all. If they aren't into cars, they drive their basic vehicle and don't make chide remarks to those that are. It's usually the jealous types that open their mouths.

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