Mazda Protege5 vs. Honda Civic

nematode · August 2003

if you must have a new car every 3 years AND you like brands that have high resale AND you want low monthly payments AND you dont mind paying to drive without owning AND dont drive a lot.

Does not fit me but it does work for lots of people. Some people feel better if they have the latest and greatest and leasing is one way to get this.

To me it would feel like I was living beyond my means but not everyone feels that way.

icvci · August 2003

You've gotta admit, Honda dropped the ball on the Civic Si. It doesn't come close to what those of us who've owned them in the past expected.

The engine is great but the overall set-up is a step down from the previous Si.

baggs32 · August 2003

"If they brought a 5-door over here with the Civic name, it'd do great. But it would probably also cut into their CR-V sales."

You just explained why a Civic hatch would have to play catch-up. The CR-V and Element. Both are priced right in line with a well equipped Civic. Why would you buy an underpowered small car when you can have something much larger with near identical driving dynamics for about the same price? It would be a big risk that the other models mentioned didn't have to venture into.

Honda is not afraid of a risk though. Look at the Element. The people they are marketing it to are not buying it. Fortunately for them older folks (who apparently are losing their vision at a rapid pace) are picking up the slack (Or is that slackers

)?

"You forget that by the time these cars get here (to the North American market), they're already mature products. They're not unproven at all; they've been around as long as the sedan variants have, just not in the US."

I'm aware of that but it is irrelevant. If Honda doesn't think people will want to buy it they probably won't bring it over. They must have their reasons.

Looks are important over here. I don't know anyone who looks at the Si and says "Wow, what a great looking car!" If the thing looks like a small Aztec, well you know the rest.

smasher · August 2003

Yes, they did drop the ball with the Si. Great engine and shifter, good body packaging, but disappointing handling and some nits with build quality.

I was thinking more about the packaging/body style/body integrity than its Si-ness. I think that was an error more of marketing than anything else. They just didn't spec it right. The engineering and overall design are there, and it can't be mistaken for anything but a Honda--unlike the Civic coupe/sedan and the new Accords, which are getting more boring and unrecognisible as time goes on. But again, the only thing which failed the Si was the way it was spec'ed (blame the bean counters and the marketing people for that), not its basic design.

It goes to show you can have a great engineering and design team, but still ruin a car's prospects if you misread its market (as Honda did with the Si), or screw up on quality control (as VW has with the Golf/Jetta/Beetle).

Have you seen the 5-door? It's a much more attractive package (looks a lot less like a Festiva), and would make a great sporty hatch/wagon/whatever. And it has that Honda family look.

But would it sell in the North American market? Would they want it to? Baggs, you bring up a good point: Honda has already saturated that market with small SUVs. I think it's such a bummer that the only way to sell a practical car in the US is to truckify it: make it less space-efficient and give it a high center of gravity (like the CR-V), or give it plastic cladding, suicide doors, the rubber floor from a VW bus and a bunch of blind spots (like the Element). Arrrrgh!

Funny (yet somewhat sad) story: when I was test driving cars, I tried out a 3-year-old Civic hatch. During the drive I got sideswiped by a Honda Element; the guy was pulling out of an office park and just didn't see me coming.

icvci · August 2003

Why would you buy an underpowered small car when you can have something much larger with near identical driving dynamics for about the same price?

Wellllll... if they included the engine from the current Si it wouldn't be under powered. Seeing as the CR-V and the Si have the same engine. I know the CR-V is underpowered for your tastes but, I love ours.

I don't see a 5 door playing much of a part in Element/CR-V sales. My P5 can't even come close to doing what our CR-V can. It wouldn't hurt the CR-V/Element anymore than the Trib/Escape are hurt by the Focus Wagon.

I love my P5. Love it. Love it. Love it. (This from a long-time Honda guy.)

rivertown · August 2003

if cost isn't an issue, LOL.

IMO, the biggest marketing flup with the Si is the MSRP (in combination with the Honda rep for selling close to sticker). I wonder how many buyers simply passed at $19.5K.

I agree, the new gen Si is not Si like.

dudka · August 2003

<<Wellllll... if they included the engine from the current Si it wouldn't be under powered. Seeing as the CR-V and the Si have the same engine. I know the CR-V is underpowered for your tastes but, I love ours. >>

Si and CR-V do not share the same engine. The Si engine is from the base RSX. While RSX Type S engine and 6 speed tranny are a direct replacement into the Si, it would make the Si Civic Type R.

CR-V/Element/Accord/TSX share the same engine block but different heads to achievive what is needed for a particulr vehicle.

Overseas CR-V uses K20 engine block, same as US Si, RSX's and Japan's Stream.

baggs32 · August 2003

"I don't see a 5 door playing much of a part in Element/CR-V sales. My P5 can't even come close to doing what our CR-V can. It wouldn't hurt the CR-V/Element anymore than the Trib/Escape are hurt by the Focus Wagon."

A 5-door wouldn't play a part in Element/CR-V sales. I said the Element/CR-V would play a big part in 5-door sales. Honda would have a hard time selling 5-doors with Elements and CR-V's on the lots. Their prices would be too close. The Element and CR-V are pretty good bargains in the small SUV class. The Civic is not a bargain any more. Have you priced one lately? My wife priced a 2003 EX with all the options our 96 has and the sticker was over $20,000!

You can get a CR-V EX, which has more power, more room, more comfort, etc., for about $1500 more. Who in their right mind (and here in N.A.) would buy the smaller less refined car if that's the case?

smasher,
I have to admit, the 5-door Civic does look better than the Si. However, it's still the ugly duckling when compared to the P5 if you ask me. Others might see differently though.

"During the drive I got sideswiped by a Honda Element; the guy was pulling out of an office park and just didn't see me coming."

See?! I told you the people buying them were losing their vision!

icvci · August 2003

$20,000+ for a loaded Civic EX? Not around here. Here you can pick them up for $18,000 or less. IMO the lower models are the only ones that would be cross-shopped. And in that case you'd get a lot less going with a CR-V LX or (Whatever the lower Element is) than going with the upper end EX Civic.

Get this. A guy at work just bought a Civic EX sedan auto for $16,300 out the door! (No SAB) He bought it in Toledo. (About a 75 mile drive from here.) I don't know what you'd put on it to drive the price over $20,000.

Just speculation anyway so who really cares?

dudka · August 2003

I don't think a 5 door Civic would cannibalize CR-V/Element sales. Civic Ex 4 door ($15,300) costs more than Accord DX ($14,500). The DX Accord is only slight less loaded. DX does not have A/C, power doow locks, cruise, nor sunroof. Everything else found on Civic EX is there: ABS, power windows...
Do we see a lot of people cross shopping Civic with Accord?

Focus ZX5 ($16,443 ($3000 reabte not included) premium sport), and Matrix ($15,597 XR FWD) certainly did not cannibalize Escape ($16,300 value FWD) and RAV4 ($16,541 Base FWD) sales.

ashutoshsm · August 2003

... is just an advertising leader, so Honda dealers can advertise their "As low as 14,499" sales in your Sunday newspapers. Almost none are built, and almost no one cares to buy one. If someone had exactly that budget, though, they might want it - most peole will throw in the extra $ and get the LX.

And if someone notices the similar prices, and cross shops the Civic EX and Accord DX, they'll give up as soon as they find they have to compromise on a lot of things, including availability!

smasher · August 2003

"I have to admit, the 5-door Civic does look better than the Si. However, it's still the ugly duckling when compared to the P5 if you ask me. Others might see differently though."

Yeah, but if you want something which doesn't look as good, doesn't handle as well, and costs more, that thing is a winner!

It's interesting to see the small wagons going toward the microvan design (Civic 5-door, VW Touran, Matrix/Vibe, PT Cruiser). Even the new Mazda3 looks blockier and more microvannish than the P5.

I'm just not keen on trucklike vehicles (like the CR-V, Escape, Tribute, RAV4, etc.), even if they're based on cars. It's kind of a shame the Impreza (base model or WRX) doesn't have more competition in the States. How cool would it be to have the Familia SP20 here--P5 with MSP drivetrain and AWD? Mmmmm....

baggs32 · August 2003

"Even the new Mazda3 looks blockier and more microvannish than the P5."

That seems to be the general consensus around the M3 threads as well and it's exactly why I won't cross the 5-door SVT Focus off of my list just yet. I've already crossed the Vibe off though. Just can't get into it.

"$20,000+ for a loaded Civic EX? Not around here."

It's probably not around here either, but it is what the sticker says. The CR-V's sticker is only about $1500 more. Both EX's too.

"I don't know what you'd put on it to drive the price over $20,000."

Security system, 15" aluminum wheels, SAB's, 6-disc in-dash CD changer, floor mats, cargo net, AT. I think that came out to about $20,100. Most of that comes standard on a CR-V EX doesn't it?

"Focus ZX5 ($16,443 ($3000 rebate not included) premium sport), and Matrix ($15,597 XR FWD) certainly did not cannibalize Escape ($16,300 value FWD) and RAV4 ($16,541 Base FWD) sales."

To get the same options as the ZX5 premium in an Escape you're looking at anywhere from $23,000 - $25,000 for the latter. Factor in rebates and the difference is nearly $10,000! It's not like that with the two Honda's.

I'm staying away from comparing "what I can get at my dealer" prices because there is too much variation from region to region.

icvci · August 2003

I'm staying away from comparing "what I can get at my dealer" prices because there is too much variation from region to region.

Few people pay sticker. And the fact is, you'd really have to work to buy a Civic for $1500 less than a CR-V. (And you'd be silly to do so.) They charge $80+ for floor mats, does anyone fall for that? www.manhonda.com will sell them to you shipped to your door for $50.

To get the same options as the ZX5 premium in an Escape you're looking at anywhere from $23,000 - $25,000 for the latter. Factor in rebates and the difference is nearly $10,000! It's not like that with the two Honda's.

Well, I just went to ford.com and priced a Focus ZTW wagon.

Weather Package $150.00
- Heated Seats
- Heated Side Mirror

   Sport Group $525.00
- 16" Five-Spoke Alloy Wheels
- Fog Lamps
- AM/FM Stereo 6-Disc In-Dash CD Player with Digital Clock & 4 Speakers
- Driver Side Lumbar Support
- Tachometer
- Leather Wrapped Steering Wheel

Options/Upgrades
   Leather Seating Surfaces $695.00
   Manual 5-Speed Transmission ($815.00)
   Advance Trac $1,625.00
   Anti-Lock Braking System (ABS)
   Perimeter Alarm System $125.00
   Power Moonroof $595.00
   Side Impact Air Bags $350.00
   Traction Control
Total MSRP is $21,420.00

A similarly equipped Escape (in my area) per kbb.com is $24,580. Not a $10,000 difference. Not even $5,000.

baggs32 · August 2003

"And the fact is, you'd really have to work to buy a Civic for $1500 less than a CR-V. (And you'd be silly to do so.)"

My wife paid sticker for our Civic. She was a 22 year old fresh out of college and wanted a "cute" car NOW. She went by herself one night, without telling anyone, and got royally screwed (but she was happy). She's not the only one I know who did this either. It happens more than you think and yes it is "silly". Fortunately she's older and much wiser now. Mostly because she married me.

"Total MSRP is $21,420.00

A similarly equipped Escape (in my area) per kbb.com is $24,580. Not a $10,000 difference. Not even $5,000."

The previous example was a ZX5 premium not a wagon because the Honda example included a 5-door Civic and a CR-V/Element. The wagon is a different story altogether. I also went by sticker not kbb's version of Edmunds' "what I can get in my area" price, aka TMV. Speaking of that, why did you present the Focus' sticker price but then used the "what I can get in my area" price for the Escape?

You also added the $1600+ Advance Track to the Focus. Escape's have no stability control system yet.

You're still looking at a much larger price gap than that of the Honda's even if it isn't $10,000. Rebates will only make the difference grow because I think the Focus' rebate is almost double that of the Escape right now. We all know the Honda's do not have rebates to play around with.

The same logic that applies to the Focus/Escape applies to the P5/Tribute.

Honda people tend to stick with Honda's. If you go to a Honda store looking for a Honda you probably will cross shop a CR-V/Element with a 5-door Civic. They are closer in comparison than any other Honda's at this time. An Accord hatch or wagon would change thing dramatically.

When you go to a Ford store you will cross shop the Escape with a Focus wagon or Taurus wagon because those are all similar in price, features, etc.. The hatch versions of the Focus, ZX5 included, don't come into play because they are a lot cheaper to buy than the others mentioned above.

smasher · August 2003

"Honda people tend to stick with Honda's. If you go to a Honda store looking for a Honda you probably will cross shop a CR-V/Element with a 5-door Civic."

That's probably true. But I think people have a pretty good idea of what they're looking for by the time they visit a showroom, especially these days. Sporty 3- or 5-door? Small sedan? Compact SUV? Minivan? If they're a loyal Honda buyer, they may walk in and say, "I need a minivan. What have you got?"

I think VW people tend to be loyal, too (though their recent QC problems may be testing that loyalty). You may be tempted to cross-shop a Golf, Jetta and Touran (if it were available), or move up to a Passat. That's what my sister and brother-out-law did: after a long line of Sciroccos and Jettas (and a visit to the Dark Side with a Chevy Surburban), they dumped their SUV (yay!) and got a Passat wagon. They didn't even look at anything else.

Maybe in a couple of years people will come to their senses and return to passenger cars again. But until then, the dealers will continue to push the SUVs.

I don't get it myself. When I was looking at Imprezas, the dealer was trying to steer me toward the Forester. When I was looking at the Civic Si, the dealer tried to steer me toward the Element. What gives? Are they trying to move them off the lot (problems selling the things?), or are they getting better profit/incentives to move the big boxes?

dinu01 · August 2003

Regarding your last comment: YES!!!

Cars costing more bring in more revenue.

On a PRO a dealer has $2000 MAX to play with until INV, but on an NSX, Acura has $18.000 CAD!!!!

Inv: 124K
MSRP: 142K

Canadian prices...

Dinu

#noname · August 2003

to actually read about a comparison:

Comparing a P5 to a 2003 Civic of any U.S. sold trim is definitely comparing apples to oranges to bananas. I recently went through the same shopping dilemma and eventually traded in my old 94 Civic Si 3 door for a P5 with an automatic, fully loaded. To put it simply, I outgrew the Civic and the P5 fit the bill for what I needed more than any other car.
Heres why:

1. A compact sedan is just too small for my family of four and a similarly equipped midsize would have been at least $3,000 more expensive than a P5 with a little less than two inches or so in leg and shoulder room to show for it. Yes, I may have gotten a bigger engine with a midsize, but I really dont need a 200HP rocket to crawl 25mph along jammed freeways on my daily commute.

2. As a parent, trunk space is a must. The carriage style stroller we push our youngest around in simply wouldnt fit in the trunk of the Civic so it was out of the running early. The trunk in the P5 is bigger than even the touted trunk of the Toyota Camry (although much of that extra space is positioned vertically) and only a minivan can beat a five-door wagon in terms of versatility. Got stuck with bringing the coolers to the soccer game? No problem!

Daddys tip: Dont even bother looking at a coupe body style if you have kids or plan to have them in the future, no matter how wonderful the car (Civic Si included). The back seats are pretty hostile environments when you need to install safety seats or extract sleeping children out of them. Taking the kids around in my old 3 door was always an ordeal.

3. I needed an automatic; my wife cant/wont drive a stick. Knowing this, I also knew that I couldnt trust the horsepower ratings on cars that rely on variable valve timing (VVT) to achieve their maximum horsepower/torque levels like the Civic EX and Matrix/Vibe. Its well known that ATs suck the performance out of all engines but they seemed to sap more out of the cars with VVT than those without. When I asked I found it has to do with the VVT needing higher revs to be effective and the AT up shifting before giving it a chance work thereby sapping nearly 15 to 20 HP out of the car. Im not sure if this is correct but it does seem to make sense. My old Civic had a 1.6L VVT and if I up shifted when the revs were below 3,000 the thing couldnt outrun the joggers along the side of the road.

Anyway, the 2003 Civic EX has a 1.7L engine, and the 2004 Matrix has a 1.8L. Both require that extra boost the VVT provides to achieve their 130HP ratings. The P5, and Ford Focus for that matter, dont have VVT. They get their 130HP the old fashioned way, a bigger engine (2.0L for both). Its something to consider if you need an AT.

4. Surprisingly reliable. I couldnt believe the nearly complete absence of posts and TSBs when I was researching the Protégé line and theyve been around for five-six years. I was just as surprised as anybody to discover that Mazda makes pretty darn reliable cars despite being owned by Ford. (Sadly, their trucks and SUVs are another story.) How they could ignore this in their marketing campaigns is totally beyond me. What works against the company, however, definitely works for the buyer. Mazdas may be the best kept secret in the industry. Reliable, affordable, fun to drive cars plus the thousands of dollars in incentives theyre offering, its really hard to go wrong.

Things arent all roses with a P5, however. The biggest minus for buyers is that it is a lame duck model. Whatevers left on your dealers lot is all you have to choose from because Mazda will be replacing it with a boxier model this fall. The P5 is also has much more road and wind noise at high speeds than either the Civic or Matrix, especially those equipped with a roof rack. When test driving it, make sure you get on the highway and drive it above 50 mph for a while to check it out for yourself. Finally, while youre investigating the road noise, dont forget to pay attention to the suspension. All P5s have a very firm ride. It does soften up a bit after you break the car in, but it will never be something anybody considers soft.

Oh, just to add my two cents. Im in the camp that believes that the highest projected resale value pitch that Honda and Toyota constantly make is bunk. The biggest thing they fail to mention is that the resale/trade in value you actually get is more dependent on your own sales/negotiating ability than on the actual condition of the car itself. They also tend tout the resale values of clean cars rather than the more realistic average ones. After someone puts 100K and adds a few dings and scratches on their car would you rate it clean and offer blue book for it? Dont expect the dealers to do it either. Need more proof, check out the Confessions of a Car Salesman article on this site.

dudka · August 2003

Congratulations on your purchase and I am glad that you are happy. Not to pick on you, but this is where most people make a mistake choosing a vehicle.

<<<<1. A compact sedan is just too small for my family of four and a similarly equipped midsize would have been at least $3,000 more expensive than a P5 with a little less than two inches or so in leg and shoulder room to show for it. Yes, I may have gotten a bigger engine with a midsize, but I really dont need a 200HP rocket to crawl 25mph along jammed freeways on my daily commute.>>>>

I understand that most people can't afford to have multiple vehicles, but the family hauler should not be a commuter as well. It is just not practical. Would you walk around with 2 40 lbs cement bags? This is what it equates to to having a family vehicle used for daily commute by one person, unless you are carpooling.

At least you chose wisely and got a decent compromise between family vehicle and commuter, unfortunately millions of people buy gargantuan SUVs because "it would be nice to take the family out on the weekends" but they also dirve it daily in their 30 mile plus commute from the suburbs.
Please, I am not trying to offend anyone, just stating my point.

Just out of curiosity, how much did you get for the 94 Si and how many miles were on it?

baggs32 · August 2003

" But I think people have a pretty good idea of what they're looking for by the time they visit a showroom, especially these days."

There's truth to that too but you pointed out how the salesman may have a different plan.

Last year my wife an I went to look at 2002 Accords because we thought great deals could be had on them being that the 2003's had already been advertised as "coming soon". Instead of offering us a deal on the Accord the salesman tried to put us in a CR-V. We said NO! Then he tried the Pilot sales pitch (Which included the line "Unlike the CR-V the Pilot's a real truck." Moron.). We said DOUBLE NO!

It's happened with other brand's too. Ford guy wanted us in an Explorer when we were shopping for our Escape. Mazda guy (most recent) was pushing us toward a Tribute when I test drove a P5 even though he knew we had an Escape. It was parked right in front of the glass walled showroom
for cryin' out loud!

I don't know why they do that. I do know that it's really annoying though.

Why is there no name on post #120? Whomever you are I totally agree with you on the coupe/children issue. We're expecting our first this December and, even though my wife doesn't believe me yet, we need to replace our Civic coupe with something that has four doors. I guess she'll have to learn the hard way.

(Don't worry, I'll be nice to her. She is taking care of the hard part after all. But if I could have the baby for her...

)

sugoiya · August 2003

I only got $2,000 for the '94 Civic. It had 75K and had rust damage on the undercarriage.

By the way, my P5 is my commuter. I've got an '02 MPV to haul around the wife and kids already. Dispite this I still found that having a compact sedan just isn't enough. You'd be surprised how much junk you have to load up just to take one of the little ones with you on an errand.

Baggs32:

Here's a little exercise I suggest you have your wife try out AFTER she gives birth. Get a 25lb bag of rice. Have her put the bag in the back seat of her coupe without 1)hitting her head 2)straining her back 3) swinging the car door wide engough to hit the car next to you.

If she still doesn't get the message replace the 25lb bag with a 50lb one.

baggs32 · August 2003

That's great sugoiya! Only problem is, I've been relegated to driving the coupe even though the Escape replaced my car.

So now I have to convince her to replace MY car again.

I'll still try it though. I'll put her on five inch heels so she's about the same height as me and then make her load the rice into the back. That'll learn her!!!

sugoiya · August 2003

By the way, contratulations to you and your wife. Here's some more fatherly advice:

I'm not sure how old your Civic is, but you may want to check the seatbelts. Pull them all the way out and see if they lock up once you start retracting them. If they don't you CAN'T mount a child seat back there unless it's equipped with LATCH brackets and a head tether bracket. My '94 didn't have any of these which made the car all the more kid unfriendly.

If you're seriously shopping for something to replace the Civic, buy your baby gear first (including a big Costco size box of diapers) and bring it with you to the dealer. Practice loading and unloading right there on the dealer's lot before you even take a test drive. The last thing you want to do is find out the car's too small AFTER spending $20-30K.

Finally, because both of your cars are on the small side, you should put some thought into shopping a little bigger (i.e. minivan, large SUV). Especially if mom is hinting that the bun currently in the oven may not be the last. A minivan/mini-SUV combo can handle much more expansion than a midsize/mini-SUV combo can. The price difference isn't that much either, especially if you can live without the leather seats, DVD players and power sliding doors.

boggse · August 2003

Motor Trend reports that Honda plans to import the "Civic-based multipurpose vehicle, the Stream, to North America next year..."

We will get the 2.0L engine and it will be called the Latitude.

Here is the link to the Japanese website:

http://www.honda.co.jp/auto-lineup/stream/

iamz · August 2003

micro-van.

revka · August 2003

here's a direct link to our Honda Latitude discussion. And let's get back to the subject of the Mazda Protege5 vs. Honda Civic. Thanks!

Revka
Host
Hatchbacks & Wagons Boards

hdd · December 2003

Smasher - funny I have an '87 Integra I'm planning on getting rid of for a P5. Mine's got a busted spedometer & therefore non-winding odomete (probaby 140k miles), a half a muffler, a hole in the floorboard under my clutch foot and body damage galore. Maybe I should reconsider the donation and try to do a trade-in. But damn... no CD player!!!

Anyhow, I drove the P5 and it's definitely a fun car to drive. My only complaint was the bumpy ride. But the price (especially right now) can't be beat. If I can find a car with color & options I want, I may take the plunge. for my taste, the Si just can't match the styling of the P5. Great thread, great group. thanks.

smasher · December 2003

Yeah, hdd: it is good. Other than the obvious stuff (a much newer car with all the technical refinements of the last 16 years), you'll like the trunk space (higher and deeper, with almost no liftover), cargo space (a little narrower, but taller and more accessible), ingress/egress, headroom, cupholders, and torquier, more flexible engine. (You really don't have to wind it up as much at all.)

The driver's seat is really, really good--much more comfortable on long trips.

Regarding the ride and handling: my Integra had slighly firmer shocks and lower ride height--kind of a Stage 1 upgrade. The P5 feels about the same, maybe ever so softer. I don't mind the ride at all. The handling on the PR5 is excellent, and steering is *superb*. I was very pleasantly surprised at how well this car sticks. Those Mazda folks really know how to dial in a chassis.

Winter traction is a different story. I haven't driven it much in the snow, but the stock tires are biased toward fair-weather handling, not all-season traction. I don't think it's any worse than my Integra was, but I'm thinking of springing for a set of winter wheels/tires.

Mazda Protege5 vs. Honda Civic

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