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Mazda Protege5 vs. Honda Civic

revkarevka Member Posts: 1,750
edited March 2014 in Honda
to discuss the Mazda Protege5 vs. the Honda Civic! Since this subject has come up a few times in other discussions here, I thought it would be a good topic for a new discussion.

If you're in the market for a Protege5 or Civic, please post your questions here. If you own either one of these vehicles, we'd appreciate your feedback on this subject.

Also, a couple notes about comparing vehicles in cyberspace: Civility and respect underlie the success of an on-line community such as Town Hall. Please respect and interact with fellow members as you would in any public arena. Thanks for your participation. ;-)

Revka
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  • revkarevka Member Posts: 1,750
    Be sure to check out direct access to other related discussions, articles, and features on the left side of the page. Happy motoring!

    Revka
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    Hatchbacks & Wagons Boards
  • smashersmasher Member Posts: 31
    I was looking to replace an '87 Integra (4-door RS). I test drove both (along with the Impreza wagon, Golf 4-door, and Mini Cooper), and seriously considered the Si, mainly because my primary need was for a hatch/wagon, and the Si is the only hatchback Honda sells in the US market. (If they offered a less sporting hatch, say in LX or EX trim, I would've seriously considered it.)

    Its good points:
     - Great engine/drivetrain
     - Pretty good handling
     - Civic's reputation
     - Good ergonomics (shifter placement was great, and shift action was as good as any Honda/Acura--in other words, among the best)

    What turned me off:
     - Styling (it looked too much like a boy-racer to me, yet from some angles reminded me of the Ford Festiva)
     - Interior didn't feel up to Honda's quality
     - No ABS
     - Handling didn't wow me
     - Interior space/utility wasn't as good as a 4-door
     - Concerns about its theft rate, or potential theft rate

    That Si engine is a really sweet mill: iVTEC, cam chain, hydraulic valve lifters. (Supposedly the first scheduled tune-up is at 110,000 miles!) It'll run and run and run. It's a little funny in this car, though. I think the Si is a bit over-engined for its handling, at least in its stock form.

    The Si's interior kind of suprised me. There were some thoughtful details (like convertable cupholders/bins), but overall I wasn't impressed with the quality or finish of the materials, and there were a couple of ergonomic quirks (HVAC controls too close to the gauge cluster, but not quite in easy reach). It seemed a little rough around the edges--something I thought I'd NEVER say about a Honda.

    The P5's good points:
     - Styling (interior and exterior)
     - Handling (the P5's chassis is beautifully tuned right out of the box)
     - Ergonomics
     - Utility (5 doors, and more interior space than you'd think)

    Potential concerns:
     - Engine not as powerful as the Honda's, and uses a timing belt instead of a chain
     - Shifter action not as good as Honda's (Honda really is the benchmark here)
     - Mazda kind of an unknown to me

    Styling and design are totally subjective qualities, but I liked the looks of the P5 much better, and I preferred its interior layout and utility. It's a unique car. (It has its own quirks, though, like the dumb location of the lighter socket--if you're charging your phone, you can't use one of the cupholders--and foglight/cluster dimmer switches way out in the middle of nowhere.)

    The Protege5 felt most like my Integra: the right combination of utility and sportiness. The Protege's reputation for reliability is as good as the Civic's, too.

    Needless to say, I ended up with the P5, and the more I drive it, the more I love it. And configuration of the cargo compartment is great: it's like a big box, with a low liftover and a tall, wide opening in back. The Si seemed a little more cramped back there.

    There have been a number of comments made about the Protege's engine, that it doesn't have enough oomph. This isn't a drag-racing car. But the engine has a great, usable powerband nonetheless, with gear ratios well chosen for real-world driving.

    The P5 is really fun on back roads: just keep it in third gear and scoot from apex to apex, and listen to its nice, nasally, burbling snarl. Handling and steering are PERFECT: totally composed and unruffled, just eager and fun. It really grows on you.

    This may be off-topic a bit, but I don't get why Honda doesn't have more hatches on the market. They built their reputation on small hatches, and yet hatchbacks are virtually absent from their US lineup; the Civic Si is the only one. I would LOVE to see them bring in their 5-door hatch, and in more trim levels. (The 5-door is available in the UK; I think it's built there, too). It's much prettier than the 3-door, and looks much more useful.

    And why is "hatchback" such an ugly word? What's wrong with it? Hatchback! Hatchback! Hatchback!
  • rivertownrivertown Member Posts: 928
    ABS is standard on the Si.
  • dudkadudka Member Posts: 451
    Like stated above, ABS are standard and the Electronic Brake Force Distribution is standard as well. I don't think any other car in the segment offers EBD.

    Since you wanted a 5 door hatch, check out Matrix/Vibe. It was the first one on my list, but the Si pricing woed me in.
  • ashutoshsmashutoshsm Member Posts: 1,007
  • dinu01dinu01 Member Posts: 2,586
    On all Protege ES and P5 trims. Standard. Also standard, 16" alloys w/low profile tires, good loooks and great handling.

    Dinu
    PS: This could very well turn into an Accord-vs-M6 or TSX-vs-M6 forum :)
  • smashersmasher Member Posts: 31
    Huh. I stand corrected. According to a number of sources (including Honda's own spec sheet) the Si does have ABS.

    The P5 has ABS available only as an option, but their ABS has EBD, too.

    But anyway I'd be interested to read what others had to say about these two cars--driving impressions, look and feel, etc. Anybody else out there drive both?
  • boggseboggse Member Posts: 1,048
    ...before I purchased the Protege5, but I drove the EX, not the Si. I found that the Civic had indeed fallen behind in build quality. The body panels did not match paint grain, and the interior was full of cheap plastic like you would expect to find in a Neon or Cavalier. This is not what I was expecting to find in the latest Civic. Handling also suffered in comparison to the Protege5. I found the Civic to have a smoother highway ride, but I considered that a negative as I like to feel what is happening to the car. The stereo was marginally better in the Honda. All in all, the reasons I can think to recommend the Civic over the Protege5 are fuel economy and resale value. Neither of those ranks in my top 5 priorities, so I went with the Protege5.
  • rivertownrivertown Member Posts: 928
    I haven't driven the Pro5; not enough bang for the buck on paper when I was buying.

    Edmunds says it costs more to own the Pro5, by $450 a year. Given the discounts and slow sales on the Si, I think a good shopper would come out even better.
  • baggs32baggs32 Member Posts: 3,229
    boggse,
    It's refreshing to hear from someone else who doesn't put resale value and fuel mileage at the top of their list. Neither of those two top my list, nor does reliability to an extent. I just want to love the vehicle and that's it. To each his own I guess.

    Back on topic...
    I have stated in other threads how much I loathe our 96 Civic. It's true, I can't wait to get rid of it. But I can't argue with the reliability of it's engine. I have done nothing but replace the air filter and change the oil every 3000 miles since we bought it. I think I need to get a new battery very soon, but it has been a pillar of reliability to this point. However, it only has about 54,000 miles on it as of today.

    As for the rest of the car, it's falling apart around the engine. Of course all of this is happening after the warranty which really bites given the high cost of fixing a Honda.

    I just don't see the benefit of paying a little extra for that big "H" on the hood. But I'm guess I'm just not like everyone else. ;)

    Anyway, the wife and I were ready to replace the aging Civic with a P5 or Mazda 6i when I started seeing pictures of the 3 and heard that Ford is going to use the 2.3L I4 in the Focus for MY2004. Now we're waiting until next year. Unless we can get a screaming deal on a Focus SVT at the end of this year, that is. :)

    The sad part is the P5 will probably not be on our shopping list any more. I drove one and absolutely loved it! In fact I loved everything about it. Then I drove the 6 and the P5 took a back seat. Add that to the fact that my wife thinks the P5 looks like a "frog", and, well you know the rest. :(

    Yet there is still hope! She does like the 3. At least in the pictures I've shown her.

    Can't wait to start shopping again!
  • boggseboggse Member Posts: 1,048
    Unfortunately, TCO doesn't do a very good job of estimating the financing deals available on the Protege5. When I consider 0% for 5 years, I save an average of $529.80 a year off of Edmund's TCO which means ~$80 less than the Civic assuming your $450 value is accurate. That is, unless you can find a 0% deal on the Civic which I have yet to see. This all assumes that a given individual can qualify for the 0%. If not, then the Civic TCO looks better, mainly due to depreciation.
  • boggseboggse Member Posts: 1,048
    "I just want to love the vehicle and that's it."

    I agree that is the key. Find a vehicle you love and drive it until it dies. That has been my goal all along. After the last 5 years and 7 cars (Taurus, Escort, Cherokee, Jetta, Protege, Protege5, and Miata), hopefully we are at that place. We both love our current cars (Protege5 & Miata), and I don't see that changing. Good luck with the 3 vs. 6 dilemma!
  • rivertownrivertown Member Posts: 928
    Check the TCO numbers for yourself.

    If the cost variable is important, you oughta compare the Pro5 with promo rate to the Si with promo rate (1.9%). The Si still comes out ahead by about $300/year.
  • boggseboggse Member Posts: 1,048
    I didn't see at promo rate on Honda's website, but I'll take your word for it. Still, it is interesting to note that the big difference in TCO is depreciation. Obviously, if you are only going to keep the car a few years, the Honda makes more financial sense. If you plan on keeping the car longer, then the numbers start to converge.
  • ashutoshsmashutoshsm Member Posts: 1,007
    ... are you factoring in mazda rebates - such as Loyalty cash, cashback and grad rebate? Also a rebate for using Mazda financing (not all these exist on all models, but a substantial subset exist across thee ntire model line) If you figure the cost of the Pro/P5 with these included, you'd arrive at even better numbers.

    Not to mention you're comparing small gala apples to large Fujis. The Si is a 3-door hatchback, with less space than the P5 (a 5-door hatch), and less comfort in the back seat as well. From my test-drives, I felt it (the Civic Si) was outclassed in the handling department by the Mazda as well - the only thing it has going for it is a wee bit more HP (noticeable ONLY when revved high) and a butter-smooth shifter (the Pro/P5 is excellent as well).

    So when you consider that a FAR better car (the P5) costs about as much as the Si to own, *I* call it a no-brainer :)
  • smashersmasher Member Posts: 31
    The Si looks like it belongs in a different market. It feels unfinished. It looks as if Honda wanted to capture what it saw in the aftermarket hot-rodding scene in its new Si. The result is a fairly stripped-down car (the interior feels very spare and unrefined to me somehow) with over-bolstered bucket seats and poor outward vision, but it still doesn't look right. It looks like it wants to be lowered. It looks like it needs bigger wheels/tires. It looks like it wants a big wing and neon lights around the rocker panels, and big decals on its flanks. And I'm not that kind of car owner. Most people aren't.

    The P5 feels much more complete to me, more grown-up. The interior makes sense (good ergonomics, nice materials, good fit and finish), the lower body add-ons are well integrated with the rest of the car. The car looks right, and it's livable. The engine isn't peaky, the gear ratios are well-spaced without any dead spots, the handling is great without being too harsh, the seats are comfortable and provide enough support without impairing rearward vision, ingress/egress are easy. Added bonus: it's got four doors.

    I think Honda really had something right with the Civic Si's and CRX's of the late '80s/early '90s. They were the right combination of sportiness and practicality and style, with great handling and fit/finish, nice appointments without too many luxury gizmos, nothing too off-the-wall or extreme. They had just enough power, just enough handling prowess, just enough bolstering in the seats. They were complete.

    I think they've lost that a bit in this new Si.
  • rivertownrivertown Member Posts: 928
    The cost numbers are objective, if you look at 'em honestly. The bottom line is that under most circumstances, the Si is less costly.

    Beyond that, I figure it's a matter of individual taste and priority. I like the Pro5. On paper, it would have been my 2nd choice on a short list. For my tastes and priorities, however, the Si came out 1st; and I'd have paid more to own the Si than the Pro5. As it turns out, I can own the Si AND put $1 1/2-$2K of mods in it AND come out even or ahead costwise.
  • dudkadudka Member Posts: 451
    "The result is a fairly stripped-down car (the interior feels very spare and unrefined to me somehow)" == in other words it is not cramped which can be attributed to roominess

    "with over-bolstered bucket seats" == since when Recarros are overbolstered, the best seats I have ever had in a car. May not fit wide people though

    "and poor outward vision" == Agree the A-pillars are thicker than normal, but that is attributed to built-in tubular roll cage - added safety in case Si crosses roads with an SUV or Semi.

    "It looks like it wants to be lowered" == Agree, it needs to be lower, but at stock height it is perfectly stable at high speed.

    "It looks like it needs bigger wheels/tires" == 15 inch wheels may not be the largest in the market, but they do not rob you of HP and Torque. Hey F1 cars are running on 13 inchers, and I don't think they are slow.

    "It looks like it wants a big wing and neon lights around the rocker panels, and big decals on its flanks." == mine does not have any but is still sharp. And I would never molest its natural lines (looks like a water droplet = aerodynamics) But whatever rocks you boat.
  • smashersmasher Member Posts: 31
    > ...fairly stripped-down car (the interior feels very spare and unrefined to me somehow)" == in other words it is not cramped which can be attributed to roominess

    Er, no. I'd describe a panel van as spare and unrefined, too--yet still roomy. They're two different things. No, I don't think the Si is as unrefined as a panel van, but the materials and fit/finish aren't as good as other cars in its price range. I thought the dashboard materials and trim in particular weren't up to what I'd expect in a Honda, in any price range. The border between the silver of the instrument cluster and the grey/black of the rest of the dash looked downright cheap.

    > "with over-bolstered bucket seats" == since when Recarros are overbolstered, the best seats I have ever had in a car. May not fit wide people though

    They're probably OK for racing seats. I don't think they make much sense in a car like this (a practical/sporty car), and they make ingress/egress more difficult.

    Again, I think these may be two different markets: the Si may be closer to a Mazdaspeed Protege, or a
    Dodge Neon SRT-4. But to play in that pack, the Si needs better handling and roadholding. I personally want something a little less aggressive than that, a little more refined, a little more practical.

    > "and poor outward vision" == Agree the A-pillars are thicker than normal, but that is attributed to built-in tubular roll cage - added safety in case Si crosses roads with an SUV or Semi.

    A-pillars in this car are just as thick as those in the base hatch (sold in other markets); I doubt there's any additional stiffening to the bodycage than what's already designed in for all models. (I'd be happy to see/read otherwise.) I thought the C-pillars were too thick, and the beltline too high for decent outward vision. You can't see the hood of the car from the driver's seat, either. Wide bolstering of the seats--especially around the head--contribute to the claustrophobic feel; they block over-the-shoulder sightlines. I personally didn't like it.

    > "It looks like it wants to be lowered" == Agree, it needs to be lower, but at stock height it is perfectly stable at high speed.

    Sure. That's not what I was saying, though. It seemed like a car that begged to be modded. Some people like doing that, I don't. I guess it's a personal thing.

    > "It looks like it needs bigger wheels/tires" == 15 inch wheels may not be the largest in the market, but they do not rob you of HP and Torque. Hey F1 cars are running on 13 inchers, and I don't think they are slow.

    At what aspect ratio? Anyway, this is a frequent criticism of the car: wheels/tires are the weak link in an otherwise good chassis. This is where Honda cut corners, and as a result it'll probably be the most popular aftermarket mod.

    > "It looks like it wants a big wing and neon lights around the rocker panels, and big decals on its flanks." == mine does not have any but is still sharp. And I would never molest its natural lines (looks like a water droplet = aerodynamics) But whatever rocks you boat.

    Agreed. The looks are subjective. I didn't really like the Si's looks. Likewise, I might think the P5 looks good, but some people might think it looks like a frog. Like you said: whatever rocks your boat.
  • boggseboggse Member Posts: 1,048
    I acutally prefer the Si's appearance to the horribly bland Civic Sedan. I like the hunchback look. The only thing wrong with it IMO is the small rims and all-season tires.
  • smashersmasher Member Posts: 31
    Oh, me, too. The Civic hatch (Si or not) is much more interesting than the sedan or coupe. The Civic (and Corolla) have gotten SO boring lately--which is a shame, because the Civic used to be a really unique-looking car. Now it looks like everything else.

    I think if they brought over the 5-door they'd have a real contender for what's now being called the "crossover" market. A 5-door Civic would be a strong alternative to the Matrix/Vibe, Focus ZX5, or even the P5. If they'd offered one here I would have seriously considered it when I was shopping.

    I wouldn't be suprised if they brought it over here at some point, though they may think it'd crowd into the CR-V's market.
  • rivertownrivertown Member Posts: 928
    You can have an Si + $8K+ in mods or you can have a Mazdaspeed.

    You can have an Si + $5K+ in mods or you can have an R/T.

    I just love the Si seats. Get into some g, and they are even better. As important perhaps, my most frequent passenger is no thrill seeker; yet she feels perfectly confident with my driving (in those seats).
    Great seats. (Great woman.)
  • boggseboggse Member Posts: 1,048
    Unfortunately, they don't make a Mazdaspeed Protege5.
  • rivertownrivertown Member Posts: 928
    I know; and I think it's unfortunate, too.

    I was responding to Smasher's: "Again, I think these may be two different markets: the Si may be closer to a Mazdaspeed Protege, or a
    Dodge Neon SRT-4. But to play in that pack, the Si needs better handling and roadholding. I personally want something a little less aggressive than that, a little more refined, a little more practical."
    I'm just making the point that is doesn't make a difference what segment the Si is compared in, if you're counting cost in the comparison the Si has quite an edge.
    Want luxo, spend on luxo. Want performance, spend on performance.
    Comes out the same moneywise.
  • boggseboggse Member Posts: 1,048
    That was my whole point with the depreciation. You only get to take advantage of depreciation when you sell the car. While you have it, the Si costs about the same as a Protege5. You don't get as much back when you sell the Protege5 in 5 years (assuming Honda resale values continue to be high), but, in the mean time, the cost to own is about the same.

    As for the MS Protege, you can add $8000 in mods to the Si, but it won't be covered by a 4 year/50,000 mile warranty. With the MS Protege, you are paying for a tuner car that is supported by the manufacturer. A good example of this from Honda is the Civic typeR which Honda doesn't bother to sell here. I suspect it would cost more than the MS Protege, perhaps in the RSX price range. I think Honda doesn't bring sell the typeR in the US, so it doesn't compete with the RSX. That is too bad for Honda enthusiasts.
  • rivertownrivertown Member Posts: 928
    I think you're right about a lot of this.

    My point is that if you don't take the costs into account, the comparisons are spurious - like comparing a 'Vette, an S2000, and a Miata.
  • jadams6jadams6 Member Posts: 9
    Firstly, thanks to all those who responded to my post on other boards (which may have inadvertently led to the creation of this board!). I have just come in from test driving the Civic LX-Sport again (Canadian trim line - highest of the Civic trims, not sure what the equivalent would be in the US) and here are my (hopefully) final impressions:

    - though I have no doubt re: the durability/reliability of the car, it really just didn't do anything for me this time (now that I've test driven the P5). I felt like a responsible adult on my way to run errands....of course, not a bad thing at all, but just doesn't register on the excitment scale.

    - why do the salespeople only want to talk about reliability and resale value (I've been to four different Honda dealerships and this seems to be the standard line)....aren't there any other attributes/selling points of the Honda worth mentioning...now that Mazda and other makers are pretty much on par in terms of build quality and reliability, you'd think they'd want to focus on something else.....I mean, when I mentioned that the other car in the running for me was the Protege 5, the salesperson acknowledged that "Proteges were ranked slightly higher than Civics, but Civics' reliability couldn't be beat". Oh really?!?!?

    - the Civic was definitely quieter than the P5, but could this be the result of the smaller engine/less horsepower (4-door Civics all only have 115hp and a 1.7l engine...I think you can get up to 127hp in the 2 door coupe where of course the P5 has a 2.0l engine with 130hp)? Perhaps also the smaller wheels (15" on the Civic) made it quieter? I would think yes, but I don't know that much about the inner workings of cars...

    - thought that the Civic dash was set a little far to the right....I'm not of small stature, but found I really had to stretch to reach the buttons on the right hand side of the radio

    - I did like the flat back floor on the Civic (no bump in the middle)

    - Can't count the number of Civics on the road...sign of a good quality car maker, or just the shepherd with his/her sheep? Hence, I'm in fear of the "baaaaa factor".....

    - I know that next year, Mazda is coming out with the MP3 - resign for both the sedan and the P5 (so I've been told). That being the case, as some people have mentioned in other boards, the P5 could become rare bird since it would have only been in production for three years ( I think - 2000-2003?). Who knows if the P5 will become a collectors' piece, but does anyone foresee any problems down the road (like in 5-10 years) with a car that was only in production for three years....I believe the sedan and P5 share almost everything with the exception of a few options/accessories and of course, exterior styling, so I wouldn't think servicing would be a problem down the road, but again, what do I know...

    - one more question...age factor. I'm a 33 year old single chick, and think that I looked (and felt) pretty good when I test drove the P5...but will I still look good when I'm 43 and still in this car...will child seats look funny in this car...and who is this car aimed to? When I test drove the car, the guy in the car behind me (must have been in his early-to-mid twenties and was driving a 90s Honda Civic coupe) definitely was checking the car out when he pulled up beside me...This could be good or bad.....

    - so overall, I see it like this:

    responsible decision=Civic
    - proven car, excellent crash test ratings, will likely be okay if I'm ever hauling kids around, would likely get a couple more bucks for it in 2013 when I want to sell, looks okay (though looks like everything else)

    fun decision=P5
    - definitely had more fun driving it, liked the interior better (maybe just 'cause I'm used to it as I drive a '99 Protege sedan now), not crazy about the exterior yet, but feel it will grow on me, will more than likely be a better price than the Civic, concerned however about the lack of crash test results (noted as not tested on the NHSTA website, but I would think its performance would be comparable to the sedan which did almost as well as the Civic?), will have to launch a major PR campaign to convince friends and family why I chose it over the Civic

    Anyway, sorry to be long (haven't had power for a couple of days so am getting it all out here!), but again, any comments would be appreciated....I'd like to make the final decision next week so I can take delivery of the car (which ever it is) before the end of the month.

    Thanks.
  • dinu01dinu01 Member Posts: 2,586
    "responsible decision=Civic"

    Huh? Sorry I don't get why you say this.

    For me responsible decision=Civic or Protege

    Do you REALLY think Civics are a better car quality-wise than Proteges ever since the 2001 redesign of the Civic? What makes you say so if you answered yes? Yes you see LOTS of Civics everywhere, as you see LOTS of Cavaliers/Sunfires/Corollas and I wouldn't even want to test drive one of those.

    You said you were concerned with parts being available down the road. As you mentionned the 2001-2003 PRO 2.0 LX and ES engines are the same as in the P5 and the interior is the same as the ES sedan. Only question would be body pannels - let's hope we won't need that.

    Dinu
  • bluong1bluong1 Member Posts: 1,927
    The Protege5 arrives to the NA market from April 2001: that's 2002 model (like mine.) So this model has less than three year of life span indeed.

    The lastest crashtest of the Protege Sedan by NSHTA is with an old model that is no longer for sale, not to mention how it could be related to the Protege5.

    I think car manufacturers *must* ensure to be able in providing parts of a specific model many years after the end of its production. I don't have the exact number, but it could be 20 years or something like that.

    What ever you decide, good luck.

    Bruno

    PS: please don't use "MP3" for the upcoming Mazda3, since coincidently, "MP3" is the name of another defunct animal from Mazda. It's rather confusing for us.
  • boggseboggse Member Posts: 1,048
    The Protege5 has actually been produced overseas as the Familia and 323 5-door hatchback as long as the current generation Protege (since 1999). It uses many of the same parts as the Protege Sedan. The 2.0L engine was used in the 626 for many years before it made its way into the Protege family. Parts availability should not be a concern.
  • smashersmasher Member Posts: 31
    I'll take (most) of your points one by one. (I've edited them down for space.)

    > - though I have no doubt re: the [Civic's] durability/reliability...

    If you look at the numbers, Protege/Protege5 reliability should be on par with Honda. Either way you'll be getting a very dependable, reliable car. I wouldn't sweat reliability as an issue with either car.

    > - why do the [Honda] salespeople only want to talk about reliability and resale value ....aren't there any other attributes/selling points of the Honda worth mentioning...

    Um.... I hate to say it, but maybe not. Yes, they're reliable. Yes, they're well engineered. Yes, they have good resale value. But the Civic/Accord don't really have much in the way of excitement, and it seems all the personality has been engineered out of them.

    > - the Civic was definitely quieter than the P5...

    Tire/wheel combination can have a lot to do with it. A lot of things factor into noise: wheel/tire combination, engine/transmission design, sound deadening materials, airflow characteristics.

    The P5 does have a bit of tire noise on some surfaces; can't say whether it's more or less than the Civic. Probably more.

    Engine noise isn't too bad; I kind of like the growl in the exhaust note. Any compact car in this price range is going to have some noise.

    > - thought that the Civic dash was set a little far to the right....I'm not of small stature, but found I really had to stretch to reach the buttons on the right hand side of the radio

    I felt this way when I test drove the Civic Si, and I have gorilla arms.

    > - Can't count the number of Civics on the road...sign of a good quality car maker, or just the shepherd with his/her sheep? Hence, I'm in fear of the "baaaaa factor".....

    I think there's a bit of a baaaa factor. Civics and Corollas have the small car "mind share" that the Protege doesn't. When people think "reliable compact sedan" they think Corolla and Civic.

    I wouldn't have even bothered looking at the P5 unless a friend of mine suggested it. I hadn't even considered Mazda until this guy mentioned them, because it had never occurred to me to try them out. Now I own a P5.

    > - ... does anyone foresee any problems down the road (like in 5-10 years) with a car that was only in production for three years....

    No, because nearly all the internal parts (drivetrain, suspension, brakes, electrical system, etc.) are common to the Protege ES, and many of the components have a pedigree going back years.
    > - ...age factor. I'm a 33 year old single chick, and think that I looked (and felt) pretty good when I test drove the P5...but will I still look good when I'm 43 and still in this car...will child seats look funny in this car...and who is this car aimed to?

    I think the intended demographic is single men in their 20's and 30's, but don't let that stop you. I've read a number of posts from owners (men and women) saying that it makes a great small family car, with plenty of room for kids and their stuff (carriages, safety seats, diaper bags, etc.). Interior space is on par with or better than the Civic/Corolla. Trunk space is very good for a car this size, and of course you have the added bonus of a hatchback configuration for more flexible cargo carrying.

    - so overall, I see it like this:

    responsible decision=Civic
    - proven car, excellent crash test ratings, will likely be okay if I'm ever hauling kids around, would likely get a couple more bucks for it in 2013 when I want to sell, looks okay (though looks like everything else)

    P5 is on par with Civic on reliability. Depreciation is probably better on the Civic, but it evens out the longer you keep the car. A used car's value is heavily dependent on how well it's been maintained.

    > fun decision=P5
    > - definitely had more fun driving it, liked the interior better (maybe just 'cause I'm used to it as I drive a '99 Protege sedan now),

    ...and would you buy another Mazda, based on your experience? Are you happy with that car, or has it given you trouble?

    > not crazy about the exterior yet, but feel it will grow on me, will more than likely be a better price than the Civic...

    I had my doubts about it when I first looked at the P5, but the style has really grown on me. It's of course totally subjective.

    As far as practicality is concerned, the Honda will probably get slightly better gas mileage, but the P5 has the hatchback layout.

    >... concerned however about the lack of crash test results (noted as not tested on the NHSTA website, but I would think its performance would be comparable to the sedan which did almost as well as the Civic?),

    Yes. This isn't an afterthought body design; it's been sold in other markets for years. Protege sedan performance should be on par with the P5 for most common crash tests (front, side, front/side). Don't know about the rear, though.

    > will have to launch a major PR campaign to convince friends and family why I chose it over the Civic.

    Cancel out reliability as a deciding factor for both cars; it'll be on par for both.

    Civic advantages:
     - better resale value (?)
     - slightly better gas mileage

    P5 advangates:
     - more sporty (handling, steering, brakes)
     - hatchback body design
     -
  • jadams6jadams6 Member Posts: 9
    Thanks to all for the comments so far. Dinu, I don't have much history with the Civics, so can't really answer your question, but the reading I've done does support your point that the Civic redesign has resulted in some issues for the car.

    My '99 Protege has never given me one bit of trouble (only getting rid of it 'cause its leased), and love the fact that only one other person I know has one, but I thought I should investigate these Civics before I buy, because one does see a lot of them on the road and I've never heard one bad thing about this car....in fact I'm doing my negotiating through a car broker (can get into that on another board if necessary), and when I mentioned to him that the two cars in contention were the Civic and the Protege, his response was "well that's a no-brainer (his words), get the Civic". When I questioned him on his opinion, he did note that the Protege was "a good little car", but with the Civic, again it was all about reliability and resale value...sigh.

    In anycase, unless new information comes to light this week totally condemning the P5 (or I get a knockout deal on the Civic), I'll likely go with it...but will let you all know the end of the week...

    P.S. I've asked this question on another board, but will repeat quickly here in the hopes of guaranteeing an answer...I've read somewhere that with the keyless entry on the P5, press once and open the driver's door, press twice and open all doors, including the hatchback...is this right?

    Thanks.
  • smashersmasher Member Posts: 31
    > I've read somewhere that with the keyless entry on the P5, press once and open the driver's door, press twice and open all doors, including the hatchback...is this right?

    Yes.
  • iamziamz Member Posts: 542
    Almost every time I've made a purchase (cars or otherwise) based on practicality alone, I end up regretting the decision later. The car you want to drive, is the car you should buy.

    My P5 is just about out of warranty (just shy of 50K), and as for reliability, I'm not worried at all. ;)
  • dudkadudka Member Posts: 451
    I don't think Civic LX-sport is the highest trim in Canada. I believe there is an equivalent of US EX being sold as Si with 127 hp, and US Si is sold under Si-R with 160 hp. Want more luxury you can get a Luxo Civic under Acura EL name, which is not evailable in US.

    Personally, I did not like the LX/EX trims being offered in the US and fell inlove with the Si. Fits me perfectly, and has the fun factor I have been looking for. I just wish Swindon, UK plant had better quality control. Buying a Japanese car I expect Japanese quality and attention to detail, or be at least on par with Liberty, OH/Alliston Ontario plants.

    If you relly like the P5 layout, check out Matrix/Vibe. I cross shopped them, but the Si came at a better price, when I compared Matrix XRS/Vibe GT with the Si. Ocasionally I regret not getting Matrix/Vibe, especially when I have people getting into the back seat. But 95% of the time it is just me driving.

    <>

    I assume you live in the south, because this past winter these all season tires did an excellent job of keeping the car on the road in all the snow storms we had. I would have liked to have stickier rubber for the summer, but have no means of having a winter and summer set of tires. I did put Yokohama Avid T4 on the CR-V, it greately improved wet/dry handling, but Yokohama's sucked really bad in the snow.
  • boggseboggse Member Posts: 1,048
    I am sorry to hear that your Si has build quality issues. As I have posted on other boards in the past, I found the 2003 EX I drove to be unfortunately full of build quality issues. It was built in OH IIRC. Panel gaps were almost Saturn sized. Paint grain was inconsistent. Some of the rubber molding around the windows was loose. I was truly disappointed by Honda's current offering. I did not look at the Si, but I thought perhaps it would have been better. I guess not. It is a shame that Honda's quality is suffering so after many years of being on top. The Odyssey/Pilot transmission problems alone have given Honda quite a black eye. I actually have a friend who purchased a Dodge Grand Caravan rather than an Odyssey because he was concerned about reliability after reading all of the problems Odyssey owners were having. Then you have Toyota and their engine sludge problem. Times have changed.
  • dinu01dinu01 Member Posts: 2,586
    Times have changed but the majority of car buyers are not aware of these issues Honda and Toyota have and will continue to buy their products without investigating. When most people think H/T they think reliability, but they don't research it to know if it's true or not.

    Too many preconceived notions are hurting other manufacturers like Mazda.

    Dinu
  • icvciicvci Member Posts: 1,031
    So, I read the entire thread. And some people wonder why Honda sales people would stress their reliability and resale. I wonder why they wouldn't. Why in the world would they do anything but tout their strengths? You can point to recent problems Honda has had with the 2001 Civic but, what have they had since? Not much. If you buy a 2003 Civic, you're going to get one of the best built vehicles on the road. Much of the automotive press ripped the 2001 Civic, I remember one headline read, Something new from Honda, a loser. Since then, Honda has really attacked the short comings of the latest generation Civic and it is getting a huge thumbs-up.

    Mazda would give it's left arm to be able to compete head to head with Honda and Toyota. They can't. You won't see Mazda compare themselves to Honda or Toyota....ever. Many people that LOVE Japanese cars love them because of their reliability. They're people that have been burned by the big3 too many times and they want a solid car. Zoom zoom is a really nice idea. However, at the end of the day, I want to know I can get home and how much fun I have doing it means little when I'm stuck in bumper-to-bumper traffic.

    If you can't come out and say you're the most reliable, you're just not going to stand up well to Honda or Toyota.
  • dinu01dinu01 Member Posts: 2,586
    The Zoom-Zoom is as reliable as the bore-bore.

    Dinu
  • icvciicvci Member Posts: 1,031
    It takes more than your saying so and current vehicle offerings to make it true. Long-term dependability studies don't back-up your statement.

    They still have to overcome the 626, early problems with the Tribute/Escape and their affiliation with Ford.
  • toneetouchtoneetouch Member Posts: 60
    All,
    Isn't this board a Protege5 versus Civic board, not a Honda versus Mazda board? It seems to me that, if when the comparison starts moving in favor of the Mazda Protege5 one of the few negatives that people can bring up are the 626 issues of yore, it speaks well for the P5 in particular.

    I have a P5, and love it. I also bought this car as a young family car, and am very happy with the practicality of my decision.

    Ant
  • icvciicvci Member Posts: 1,031
    I was just commenting on posters being surprised Honda focuses on their strentghs.

    I too am happy with my P5. I test drove the Civic Si and a Civic Ex before my purchase.

    The 626 of yore was just last year. The 626 of bore is more like it.
  • boggseboggse Member Posts: 1,048
    Actually, the article you are thinking of tested a 2003 Civic LX:

    http://www.caranddriver.com/article.asp?section_id=15&article- _id=2505

    It placed 5th out of 11 which is not bad, but it was unexpected from Honda. I am not disputing that the Civic will last a long time, but I do think quality control has fallen off at Honda when I see the sorts of flaws I am used to seeing on domestic vehicles showing up in Hondas.

    When I walk in my dealer showroom, I see comparisons all over the place between Mazda products and the competition, especially for the Protege and Protege5. That is one of Mazda's biggest selling points:

    Just as good as the competition, but fun to drive.
  • rivertownrivertown Member Posts: 928
    Just as good as the competition, but fun to drive;
    and it costs more.
  • dinu01dinu01 Member Posts: 2,586
    0% for 4yrs financing.
    Resale is on Honda's side but $XXX.XX is not worth the same in 10yrs as it's worth today (due to inflation and the rising cost of living).

    Dinu
  • icvciicvci Member Posts: 1,031
    I stand corrected. I wonder why Honda hasn't done anything to improve the paint on these vehicles? My mom's 02 suffers from the same problem. I figured it must've been a one time problem.

    The comparisons are done by a third party, never by Mazda directly. They all speak to the fun-to-drive element or vehicle content and never reliability. Which is great, because, Mazda is on top of the fun-to-drive list. CR says good things about the Protege but, you can't use their name in advertising. Unfortunately, fun-to-drive isn't the over riding factor for the majority of buyers in the categories their vehicles are postioned in. (Mainly entry level to mid level vehicles.) Reliability is. Along with safety, another place Honda accels.
  • boggseboggse Member Posts: 1,048
    "Just as good as the competition, but fun to drive;
     and it costs more."


    Yes, but only if you sell it before the depreciation evens out (5+ years). While they are owning it, i.e. not selling it, the costs are equivalent.

    Why push reliability and re-sale? If it is reliable, why sell it?
  • icvciicvci Member Posts: 1,031
    I didn't sell my Civic hatch because it became unreliable, I sold it because I wanted four doors. Something new comes along and you want it, you can get more for your vehicle.

    The beauty of Honda is resale the advantage doesn't end after 5 years.

    1993 Cavalier 2 Dr Z24 Coupe
    Trade-In - $890
    Private Party - $1,329
    Dealer Retail - $2,062

    1993 Honda Civic 2 Dr EX Coupe
    Trade-In - $2,326
    Private Party - $2,940
    Dealer Retail - $3,965
        
    1993 Mazda Protege 4 Dr LX Sedan
    Trade-In - $1,147
    Private Party - $1,632
    Dealer Retail - $2,441

    That's almost $1000 trade-in more. ($1,300 more private party!) And when it comes time for me to make a down payment, that $1000-$1300 extra comes in handy. It's especially appealing in this class (entry level). Where people buy with the knowledge that this won't be their last car.
  • boggseboggse Member Posts: 1,048
    This re-sale business is so irrational it kills me. I got more for my 18 month old piece-of-crap Jetta than the Protege cost new, but anyway...

    So essentially, what we have established is this: all things being equal, if you keep your Protege5 10 years, it will probably cost about $9.83 more per month in depreciation over the Civic. I think that is a fair price for "fun-to-drive." Then again, my daily driver is a Miata, so I may be a little biased as to what "fun-to-drive" is worth these days.
  • icvciicvci Member Posts: 1,031
    These are entry level vehicles. To most people $1000 is a significant amount of money.

    2000 Honda Civic 2 Dr DX Hatchback
    Trade-In - $6,836
    Private Party - $7,886
    Dealer Retail - $8,916

    2000 Mazda Protege 4 Dr DX Sedan
    Trade-In - $4,963
    Private Party - $5,888
    Dealer Retail - $6,794
       
    Above is how my hatch fared against the Protege. I paid $13,400 out the door in October 1999. I don't know how that compares to the Pro. I was happy to get $7600 for my Civic, $4400 more than I owed.

    Or more on topic see the comparison below.

    2002 Mazda Protege5 4 Dr STD Wagon
    Trade-In - $9,313
    Private Party - $10,298
    Dealer Retail - $11,940
        
    2002 Honda Civic 2 Dr Si Hatchback
    Trade-In - $13,471
    Private Party - $14,542
    Dealer Retail - $16,328
       
    If you had to unload your P5, you'd be pretty unhappy. $4000 less!

    Resale is only part of the picture. Safety, reliability, fuel economy and quality factor in as well. It seems alot of people that buy a Honda view it as a practical purchase. To those buying a practical vehicle, there isn't much that tops the Honda. Believe it or not, there is a huge portion of the car buying public that doesn't give a rats behind about fun-to-drive.
This discussion has been closed.