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Comments
Did do a little surfing, looking for some explanations and stumbled on a Volkswagen site espousing all the virtues of their new electronically controlled transmissions - which I found somewhat interesting - have read nothing but bad stuff about it as far as drivability is concerned.
1. Braking with at least moderate pressure on the brake pedal and then lifting off the brake and quickly pressing the accelerator.
2. Lifting completely off the throttle while accelerating and then immediately pressing the accelerator again.
The hesitation is usually reduced or eliminated simply by waiting longer after lifting off the brake or accelerator before pressing the accelerator. Trying different foot positions on the accelerator had no effect. Therefore, it appears to me that the hesitation is due to the software that controls the transmission shifting rather than the foot position on the accelerator.
Placing the shifter in "S" tends to reduce the frequency of the hesitation but does not completely eliminate it. I'm guessing that the difference is due to slightly different software programming for the manual shift mode.
1. Braking with at least moderate pressure on the brake pedal and then lifting off the brake and quickly pressing the accelerator.
2. Lifting completely off the throttle while accelerating and then immediately pressing the accelerator again.
In stop and go traffic this is done repeatedly, which sends the transmission into a fluster.
There are multiple issues that are coming into play here. My observations are as follows, and I apologize for the length of the post but I believe I am on to something
I examined our new Honda Pilot's DBW implementation (which is faultless) and compared its characteristics and functionality with the Avalon.
1. I discovered that in the Avalon there is a "dead spot" from accelerator idle-position to on-throttle, so an inherent time-delay exists every time the pedal is depressed when fully off.
2. Upon further examination I observed that due to the curved design of the accelerator pedal, greater foot travel is required to reach the initial on-throttle position if the foot is placed lower on the pedal because of the leverage and the curvature of the pedal which causes the top of the foot to pivot downwards, as the gas pedal moves away which further compounds the problem.
This results in greater foot travel if the foot is placed lower on the gas pedal and an increased time-interval before reaching the on-throttle trigger position, so the hesitation is longer. This explains the "foot position" voodoo phenomenon being described in this forum.
3. When the accelerator is on-throttle and then the foot is removed, the accelerator returns to idle-position, and the transmission appears to shift into a higher gear irrespective of vehicle speed, and the engine RPM's drop.
4. When the foot is reapplied to the accelerator after this deceleration, there is the initial dead-spot delay depending on your foot position, plus a further delay for the transmission to reselect an appropriate gear for the current vehicle/engine speed.
5. To compound this, sometimes the transmission does not engage immediately so there is an RPM surge or "slip" until the transmission engages, on occasion with a bang, or on other occasions the transmission selects a gear and then immediately afterwards, selects an alternative gear.
6. It appears that an off-throttle event is a trigger for the transmission computer to select the highest gear possible - perhaps for fuel economy or emission reasons.
These sequences of events result in the hesitation and general transmission/drivability issues of concern.
I also observed that if the foot is not completely removed from the accelerator, but lifted just enough to be just at idle, the transmission remains in the current gear, and
a) when reapplying the throttle there is no hesitation because the initial dead-spot is not being traveled and
b) the transmission “thinks” the foot is still on the accelerator and does not recompute it's gear selection.
Taking all this into consideration, I tried an experiment to test my theory.
I fabricated a piece of plastic of appropriate thickness that when installed in the correct position in the accelerator housing upwards of the pedal shaft, I slightly changed the "off-throttle" or home position of the gas pedal to be just below the point at where RPM's increase (just below off-idle), essentially taking up the initial dead-spot or slack, and simulating a partly on-throttle condition to be signalled to the computer, without raising the idle RPM's.
I have been driving the Avalon like this for 4 days now and have found that the hesitation has all but disappeared. There is no hesitation "off the mark" - the engine responds immediately to on-throttle, and when lifting off the accelerator and reapplying during traffic, the transmission remains in the current gear because the ECU “thinks” the foot is still on throttle (or shifts DOWN if braking) and simply picks up when the throttle is reapplied. THERE IS NO GEAR HUNTING, NO MORE "SLIPPING" AND NO MORE HESITATION!
I am not sure whether this “slack” is a design intent or whether the hall-effect throttle controllers have out of spec minimum voltages that is causing the problem in some vehicles and not others. Perhaps our friend wwest can shed further light on this.
I am looking into making a permanent fix for this based on my findings, but I think Toyota need to redesign the throttle controller to eliminate the slack, and redesign the gas pedal.
Lets add to or take this Edmunds complaining to Toyota and demand a fix, I have.
Changing out to a redesigned part would be easy as this is basicaalky a plug in.( one of the major cost advantages of the DBW system).
Of course a redesign part would require new tooling and developemnt and testing which will take some time.
Toyota could design and manufacture a clip and "tongue" that slides and clips over the pedal shaft, with the tongue positioned upward into the controller housing so that the thickness of the tongue lowers the gas pedal into the corrected home position.
Alternatively the plastic controller housing could be modified to accomodate an adjustment screw so that the pedal shaft rests on the screw when fully released, allowing the home position to be adjusted.
Toyota, are you listening?
Deafening silence, I am afraid.
Thanks,
Chintan Talati
Corporate Communications
Edmunds.com
Toyota referred me back to the local dealer who conceded that Toyota have received many complaints about the transmission but Toyota consider the transmission behavior as "characteristics" of the transmission, and not a defect. They promptly closed the case.
Toyota have become too big and successful to care about silly nuisances like customers.
Sounds like GM's arrogant attitude in the 1980's, and look at where they are now. It will take Toyota far less than 20 years to fall from grace, but it will happen...
My crystal ball shows me the David that will unseat Goliath, and it is spelled H Y U N D A I.
(1) For safety reasons I figured adding the VSC/Brake assist would be worth it but would I "lose" out one some of the benefits the Touring trim offers?
Obviously I do not want lose control of my car and the VSC can aid in that not happening (to a point). But, I wouldn't want it to "take over" just because I am taking an curve or cloverleaf onramp aggressively.
I heard many times the Touring trim buyers opt NOT to get the VSC. Is that true? Do you lose some of the benefits on the Touring by having VSC?
(2) Regarding the 2007. If you were me, and not in a rush, would YOU wait for the '07?
Is a 6 speed tranny worth waiting for? Would I REALLY notice a difference? As far as I know the 6-speed is the only real difference right?
Do you suspect the '07 to be a little more expensive than the '06? I am willing to hold off...save a little more for the down payment...IF the '07 will really be worth waiting for.
What would you do?
I've driven the 6 speed in the new Camry and I understand that it is a much improved design over the 5 speed. The DBW system is still there but at least the hardware of the trans. has been improved. I did feel a small lag in response on the 6 speed, enough that you'd learn to anticipate it. DBW issue or tranny? Probably DBW..
This is all speculation of course since we don't know for sure if they'll offer the 6 speed in the 07' Avalon. It's a good hunch though....
As far as VSC goes, my opinion is that it is something to be avoided if you can until Toyota wakes up and decides to put a 'disable' switch in. While it is certainly true that VSC can prevent you from getting the car 'too deep', it may also interfere with the car's evasive capabilities in emergency situations. TRAC, however, which I think comes with the VSC option, can also create problems on snowy/icy roads - the car can literally refuse to move! For the life of me, don't understand why folks insist on things like VSC and TRAC - guess if it is a 'safety feature' it must be good?
Don't think the 6 speed should make much difference - if the 07 Camry is an indication, economy and acceleration about the same. The way the transmission works may be better or worse depending on how Toyota 'programs' it.
Out of the 102 Tourings in inventory, only 1 has the VSC option (less than 1 percent).
Out of the 629 XLS in inventory, 136 have the VSC option (almost 22%).
Out of the 893 Limiteds in inventory, 121 have the VSC option (13.5%).
I think this sort of verifies what I told you on the other board....that people who want the tighter suspension (Touring) generally do not want the limitations that the VSC package may present.
I love the Touring. I have had a few occasions to be fairly aggressive in moderate turns...and I have never felt like the car was getting away from me. as someone suggested, the Avalon (even in the Touring trim) is not a sports sedan. I could not take a sharp turn aggressively. If you believe you're going to drive a car in a manner that requires a VSC/TRAC system, you might want to consider other cars (where the VSC system can be shut off). If, however, you want something a lot more comfortable than a sports sedan...but just as powerful and with some agility...then get the Avalon Touring without VSC/TRAC. Notably, the tires on the Touring are made for a little more aggressive driving than the XLS. The Touring tires are rated A-A...so they are going to grip the road fairly well.
1. The way you ask the question on VSC tends to suggest you would not like the automated controls. And it appears it cannot be turned off. You are probably going to become frustrated when it kicks in. Better to spend money on other options.
2. On the assumption that cars get better each model year as the manufacturer refines the product, wait on the '07 if you have the time. It may cost a few dollars more and have the 6 speed (maybe) but it should also have other minor things, like options, that make it just plain better. It will also be a year younger when traded (meaningful only if you trade in about 5 years or less, under 100k miles).
Be glad you asked questions here, this is one of the best forums for information in all of Edmunds.com.........
It would seem logical that if this behavior is, indeed, related to the car's EPA/Emission ratings that Toyota would likely deny any problem, meaning that they are intentionally sacrificing some drivability for economy.
So far I haven't noticed any decrease in economy, it is actually up by 1 mpg (perhaps due to no more "slipping") but I need more time to make any assumptions on the effect on fuel consumption.
As far as drivability is concerned - I am absolutely amazed and delighted at the result. For the first time I actually enjoy driving the car. It is responsive and the drivetrain feels "tight" and cohesive and the transmission is actually smooth and orderly. It seems to have adopted a completely different shift-pattern.
There is obviously a problem induced by a sequence of on-throttle, off-throttle situations and it seems to be the off-throttle event that upsets things.
It is beyond me why Toyota have not either changed the design of the throttle controller, or implemented a software change to accomodate this condition. Seems a no-brainer to me.
Maybe I shouldn't get the VSC then. I definitely do NOT want the VSC to kick in just because I am in a tight turn and pushing the car a little. FWIW...I am a cop. I drive pretty aggressive (when it does not affect other cars). I get a good amount of practice keeping cars under control at high speeds/turns so the VSC might be an annoyance.
I KNOW I SHOULD wait for the 2007 but that means AT LEAST Sept - - - AAhhhhrrrgggghhhh !!! That's a long time to wait
The first accident that the laywers determine the hesitation problem as a cause should do it. Plenty of warnings on record with this forum...
As an officer, you should have firsthand knowledge of when accidents are more likely to occur. Is it in wet/icy/snowy conditions, or in dry conditions? I'm sure it's the former, and the slightly better handling capabilities of the Touring in dry weather are completely eliminated in the wet, and that's where the VSC is more likely to save you - when your driving skill may be drastically, if not catastrophically minimized.
I'm happy to give up a bit of dry weather slalom speed in evasive manouvers in return for the safety net VSC provides when road conditions allow me to make little use of my driving skills. I can't instantaneously and selectively brake individual wheels and/or appropriately reduce power to the engine and do the things the VSC can
do - in an instant - to prevent or minimize a skid/spin, and I doubt anyone reading this can.
Bottom line, it seems to me that the likelihood of a VSC-less Touring avoiding an accident in the dry is significantly lower than a VSC-equipped Touring saving you in rain, snow or ice. Comments, please.
Regards,
Deanie
P.S. If you want better handling and don't need the room of an Avalon, get a G35 (infinitely better handling, better reliability, better warranty and much better build quality).
and you are probably right - but, count me as one of those that is still driving his car after a high speed accelerating swerve that allowed me to avoid an accident on a dry road.
call me old-fashioned but I just can't get over this concept of a computer making driving decisions for me, good or bad.
And t's true, there are exceptions to the general rule. Getting tossed from the vehicle will save a life occasionally. No safety system is perfect. But I'll take the odds.
In any case, I have a Lexus ES330 and have been following that forum - someone on that board had referred us to this board for this great revelation.
But actually, today I am settling my ongoing claim with Lexus - and am 'trading' my ES for a GX.
If there was ever one venue, "group" of drivers wherein I thought would NEVER expose their lives to the hazards of FWD it would be law officers with "...a good amount of practice keeping cars under control...".
Most of my exposure involves officers in MT & ID wherein the use of FWD is religiously avoided due to the hazards of driving them on adverse roadbed conditions. I know of at least one town that bought Ford Taurus's for patrol cars and then had to issue an edict to the officers to NEVER get involved in a high speed pursuit.
Pay attention!
There is a strong reason why Ford owns this market, there is no other marque remaining where suitable RWD vehicles can be purchased.
And insofar as ABS and stopping distances are involved the automotive industry at this very moment is doing its level best to disuade the public of the notion that ABS will help you stop quicker.
While there are some instances wherein that may be true the real purpose of ABS is to allow the driver to apply severe, maximum, braking while simultaneously maintaining directional control of the vehicle.
Someday soon I expect the ABS system will "talk" to the VSC system and will not activate unless VSC indicates that loss of directional control is threatened.
And speaking of VSC, the one in my Porsche, PSM, delays activation for a few hundred milliseconds to give the driver time to react and "crank in" corrective measures.
That is all well and good if I am intentionally running HOT and my mind is totally dedicated, fully present and accounted for, to the job at hand.
But the majority of the time, say just cruising along enjoying the scenery, my mind is likely to be elsewhere and it would be nice, in those instances, if the PSM were more on its toes.
First, I will NEVER own a FWD vehicle, and I NEVER rent one during my wintertime travels. That being said anyone driving a FWD vehicle in adverse roadbed conditions needs all the help they can get, ABS/Trac/EBD/BA/VSC/EPS/VDIM, etc.
For what it's worth, I too just returned from a Toyota dealership (took my wife's XLS in because the paint is coming off the engine shroud). While there I took a look at the 07' Camrys on the lot and I never noticed any resemblance to the Avalon (even though Toyota did ring the bell on the Camry redesign). While you were on the lot I'm not sure if you looked at the Camry interior but when and if you do, you will see the true value of the Avy. There was NO COMPARISON... The Camry is still a Camry. I also talked to a sales guy there and asked him about the Camrys and his reply was they selling and selling at MSRP. He went on to tell me he sold a tricked out SLE (V-6 / Nav / etc. for 32,000). To be concise Toyota did two good things to the Camry, they tweaked the exterior (a good thing) and they put the Avy V-6 in it so it would compete with the Honda Accord (a very good thing). But is it in the ball park of an Avalon? Not even close. These are clearly two different vehicles.
Enjoy your Avy!
The laws of physics do not change if you add ABS to a car. It is still forward motion to be converted. Any difference in test results is generally caused by a slight change in the test conditions or the driver.
First ABS, then Traction Control, now add VSC. Before long, the thing will drive itself...........
It is interesting that, even though the hesitating behaviors in the Lexus and Avalon are different, in both cars the magnitude of this problem can depend on foot placement on the gas pedal.
Good luck with your new GX! I imagine that you tested and are happy with your foot placement in it (not just with the lease rates and taxes in Texas!)
havalongavalon
The 2007 Camry's rear door looks like a Camry. The Avalon rear door looks about twice as long.
havalongavalon (much longer than a camry)
This would be my personal car. Not my patrol car. We have Ford CVs for patrol.
sorry if I misunderstood you or you misunderstood me.
I for one had correctly understood that you are considering the Avalon as a personal car. I'd like to follow up with this question: Given your obvious personal experience driving cars under extremely demanding conditions and in view of your questions about VSC, how concerned are you that the Avalon is a FWD and not RWD or AWD car? To what extent do you think that FWD may be a disadvantage when it comes to handling?
Thanks in advance,
havalongavalon
I was wondering about you, you were silent for a good while and now it is clear that you were in your shop, manufacturing a piece that fixed the excessive slack in your gas pedal. I'm really, really happy for you, finally your Avalon is performing reasonably well for you!
I wonder how common the problem of too much slack or offset in the gas pedal may be? I don't have that problem. My engine responds after only a few mm (1-2 degrees) of pedal travel from resting position (this is best tested by pushing on the gas pedal by hand). I found no offset or slack to speak of.
I think it may be wise to separate the two issues of flawed pedal design (excessive bottom curvature and too much distance from floor to "sweet spot") and a possible slack or offset in the pedal sensor.
The gas pedal design flaw is shared by all current Avalons. In practice, this flaw may affect only, or mainly, "toe drivers" and drivers with small feet who cannot comfortably reach the sweet spot. This problem cannot be "fixed" by a dealer, but its effect can be minimized by modifying the driver's foot position, or by placing a 1"-2" spacer under the floor mat.
A problem of non-zero offset, or slack, in the gas pedal sensor may affect only some Avalons, such as yours, in which the sensor is perhaps out of spec or incorrectly mounted. One would expect that when this particular problem is identified, it should be correctable by a dealer by either repositioning or replacing the sensor unit.
Personally, I would be wary of driving around with a "jury-rigged" fix such as placing a clip and "tongue" that slides and clips over the pedal shaft. As you are surely aware, such an add-on could come loose, get stuck in a wrong position and possibly cause a disaster when you least expect it. I hope that you will take your Avalon in to Toyota and have them fix this sensor properly, and asap.
Best wishes,
havalongavalon
One of the interns sitting next to me got in a major car accident where the car hydroplaned on a 6-lane freeway, skidded, hit the center divider, and flipped over. It's been a week now, and she's still being kept under sedation until her brain signal is stable and the cranial pressure normal enough for other operations. If her car had VSC, I think the accident would have been much less likely, even totally avoided.
As for avoiding accidents through aggressive manuver, it is definitely not a day-to-day occurrance. Even then, VSC is designed to kick in only when the vehicle is on the verge of losing control. As much as I would love to avoid accidents that way, I do prefer keeping my vehicle in control the whole time. If aggressive manuver means losing control over the vehicle, what's the point of the manuver in the first place since you're likely going to hit something else anyway. So this argument is totally pointless in my opinion.
In my previous car ('01 Avalon XLS), I had the "VSC Off" button.
However, over the lifespan of the car, I never had the need to turn VSC off. Granted I lived in Pittsburgh and Virginia back then and we never had the real need to brave the road on horrible condition, but perhaps when the road condition is that bad, people shouldn't be driving in the first place? In my current '05 Avalon Limited, there is no "VSC Off" button, and that doesn't bother me at all since I feel much, much safer knowing VSC is there to help me keep my car in control.
Even in Cailfornia, VSC kicked in a couple times in the past few weeks. For those who are not in California, we had rain something like 80% of the time in the past few weeks. I would never buy a car without VSC again.
Just my two cents.
I drive a Durango and Mustang right now....sorry I am a little embarrassed...I don't know if those are FWD or RWD.
I assume the '96 Mustang is FWD.
Since I do not have a lot of experience driving FWD I guess all I can say is I will learn the limitations of the car and stay within those parameters.
The only example I have is my own car, so you may very well be correct - there may be two separate issues at play here and perhaps not all Avalons are afflicted with both problems.
I agree with you - the preferred remedy is a dealer-fix, but I have been that route a number of times without satisfaction - and further. I filed a case with Toyota but their unsatisfactory position is that my vehicle is "normal" and the hesitation issues are a characteristic of the transmission.
I was told by a senior Toyota/Lexus technician (who asked that I NEVER mention his name) that many, many new Toyota and Lexus models have this hesitation/transmission/DBW problem and there have been many complaints filed with Toyota/Lexus. Unfortunately, instead of looking for a fix, Toyota are stonewalling. It appears that Toyota is developing a reputation for denying problems and squirming out of warranty repairs until there is either huge negative publicity or a class-action suit. Remember the sludge problem? Customers were being "blamed" by Toyota for not maintaining their vehicles even when the engines siezed before the first service!!! I just don't understand this because many of us are repeat Toyota customers, and these negative experiences are likely to diminish the likelyhood of buying Toyota products again.
It may be of interest that an on-line automotive publication has become aware of the Toyota transmission and other quality control issues and they are running a story on this. They interviewed me last week. Perhaps the press will leverage Toyota into doing something.
In the meantime, the fix I have applied is very secure and in no way can interfere with normal throttle operation, although I would NOT encourage others to go this route unless they really know what they are doing.
I am hoping that Toyota will remedy this, but I think their "solution" will be "Buy the 2007 Avalon with the 6-speed transmission". In other words, the suckers like us who put our faith in Toyota and got the 2005 and 2006 models will be left unsupported and out in the cold.
A pity, after having 11 Toyotas over 5 years, I feel strongly enough about this, that this Avalon will be my last - especially now that there are many alternative manufacturers who are getting things right.
To take it one step further, if you were to open the rear door on that Camry, pack in three average size adults to roll down the road on a fifty mile or so jaunt, I would think you should be VERY good friends because you will experience "togetherness". If you were in a situation like that and had a choice of the Avalon or Camry...which would you choose? :confuse: Yes, that's what I thought...me too.
My wife and I have a 97 Camry and I like it just as much today as I did when we bought it in 96 so I'm not knocking the Camry, however, with the addition of the new Avy it has become the sacrificial lamb...you know, the one you take to Wally World for the folks that park next to you and "accidentally" open their door a little hard, a little fast...
Have a good one.
The adhesion of a rolling tire (rolling resistance) is much greater that of a tire sliding (sliding resistance). This is why a car stops quicker and why a car can not steer with the front wheels locked up. If you are driving a car down the freeway at say 60 mph and the back wheels suddenly were to lock up; the back end of the car would rotate around and pass the front end of the car (car will rotate to one side or the other). The back tires would have very little friction adhesion to the road.
ABS allows the tire to apply maximum braking by stopping the rolling just to the point of skidding (tire still rolls) so greater stopping friction and no loss of steering control.
If the car is on a gravel road or there is ice on the road then results become a little less predicable because the rolling resistance has been interfered with by the gravel or the ice.
This may sound a little counter intuitive, but I think with a little research any doubters can easily verify this.
Regards