2005-2007 Toyota Avalon

blackdog4 · February 2007

Ive had my 2007 limited for 3 months and have had no bothersome problems with the transmission. I have noticed that when coming to a stop, the transmission seems to "release" the engine braking. There is a slight but noticible feeling that the car suddenly looses the engine "drag".This is probably to allow the engine to drop to lower RPM and thus save a little gas.

I have also noticed that in the situation that bobwiley describes, that when I accelerate after slowing to say 10 MPH, the transmission downshifts and the engine revs in away that I would not allow if I were driving a stick shift. This reving is very short in duration, the acceleration is smooth and prompt, so it is not a problem for me. I wonder if changes have been made in the software controlling the transmission in the 2007.

I also have a 1997 Avalon that I still enjoy driving but in my opinion the 2007 is a quantum leap forward

wwest · February 2007

"...This is probably to allow the engine to drop to a lower RPM and thus save a little gas..."

No, that's exactly what I thought at one time. You're losing the engine braking drag because that drag on a FWD vehicle can easily result in loss of control, directional control, if the roadbed happens to be slippery. You may notice that it also happens at higher speeds, the transaxle upshifts upon a FULL lift-throttle event.

Look around, Google for:

wwest "throttle lag" hesitation

For more detail.

Or start by reading the post I just added for the Suzuki SX4 thread.

goldsuv · February 2007

Toyota is presenting a paper at a SAE conference in April on Upshift Control Technology. See http://www.sae.org/technical/papers/2007-01-1310 for those interested.

captain2 · February 2007

no, I was acutally talking about the GS, the Avalon being a larger car in all respects, and much closer to the LS in some. The GS and the Camry are closer in size to each other.

ange · February 2007

Your experience with sudden shift after slowing down and accelerating has happened to me two times. After I slowed down almost to a stop I floored the accelerator and the car stood still and the engine roared for several seconds, then jerked into gear.

This to me is "transmission slipping" for whatever reason you want to use. Worn out clutches act this way and poor computer selection for the shifting timing act this way.. Anyway it happens.

I have used the manual shift a number of times until I found I was in 3rd gear doing 60 mph.

ange

ange · February 2007

The camera is built in at the top of the license frame. It can be adjusted up or down. The lens is about 3/8 inch round and sealed in a glass cover.

There is way to know when you are close. I angled the camera so I could not see anymore ground and still had 12 inches before touching anything.
The electronic box is designed for the Avalon navigation computer unit in the trunk. You disconnect two multiwire terminals and install the box terminals and then replace the Avalon terminals on top. The power source to the camera part comes from the back up wire. When the shift lever is placed in reverse, the back up light gets power and so does the box sending the camera signal to the factory navigation screen. When shifting to drive the normal navigation unit comes on. I had to run wires to fuse box under the dash for power and ground.

I looked at the $100 wireless units. Some can be turned on all of the time or only come on when wired to the back up lights. I was afraid to get one because of the small angle viewed and poor picture quality. I did not want a blank screen mounted somewhere up front.

Check the internet re back up cameras. There many out there.

ange

bobwiley · February 2007

ange: I'm just tired of the quirky tranny--that's why I use the manual mode. I can't accept the DBW problems--an automatic is supposed to be just that. I'm just glad the Avy has the manual capability. Have you reported your problem to Toyota and to NHTSA. If not, I'd do so and then you have it on record. If enough of us complain--who knows?
Bob

havalongavalon · February 2007

ange, bobwiley and anyone else who has experienced occasional RPM surges or quirky shifting,

All you need to do is to shift out of D, into S and 5, and just leave it there.

In the S-5 mode, the car will shift through all the gears as needed, but with no attempts at "learning" and no surprises. Keep driving as you would in D. No need to shift up & down manually through the gears (unless you enjoy this exercise, of course).

If this doesn't cure it, check your foot placement on the gas pedal. Avoid toe-driving. The Av has a sensitive accelerator that is best controlled by applying foot pressure on the middle or the top half of the gas pedal. Toe driving can cause lags and surges, as was extensively discussed in this thread over a year ago.

Just about 2 years already and still impressed with my XLS.

bobwiley · February 2007

Thanks--I'll try it next time and let all know the results. I must admit, I do like the manual capability when desceding the Ozzark hills--let the motor help with the braking. All this Drive By Wire (DBW) is Driving Me Nuts (DMN)--guess after driving for about 53 years you can always learn something new!
Bob

ange · February 2007

I sent an e-mail to toyota and all they did was refer me back to the dealer. The dealer service people, some of them,
agree there is a transmission problem. They tell me toyota is working on it. I'll have to complain to NHTSA to be another on the list.

The unexpected slip-miss when trying to get into a fast traffic lane could or can be an accident or near miss. I have driven many company cars, got a new one every two years, and never experienced the transmission slippage during fast acceleration or the hesitation in slow traffic that the avalon exhibites. It is not a nice thing to say, but when you have a company you can do some things you would never do when you pay for the car. I did some tough driving with these cars and none hesitated and slipped as does the avalon.

There have been times, maybe 1-2 times per year when the car would be a situtation when speed, gear, and rpms would be such that the transmission controlling electronics would be so close to going one gear up or one gear down and a slight hesitation would happon. This flaw and was liveable and not annoying, especially when it happens more on a freakish basis. I believe I can duplicate the avalon slippage when slowing and then fast acceleration.

I tried the manual mode in slow rush hour traffic and I could not see no any improvement. It is kind of embarassing to have your friends in the car and they comment on the poor transmission changes.

I don't know why toyota, knowing they had transmission problems in the lexus models before the avalons, 2005's, came out, and still did not do anything. Then making the same transmission throuh 2007, doesn't make any common sense. I think it makes 'money sense' to them.

Ange

wwest · February 2007

"..Toyota is working on it..."

Yes, for a VERY long time now.

Actually the very first written record of the 1-2 second downshift delay was a TSB issued in the spring of 2003 for the 2002 Camry. The earliest recorded customer symptoms indicative of this problem involved the initial production run of the RX300 in '98.

bobwiley · February 2007

Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm--sure sounds like a Class Action Suit to me. What we need is to give Erin Brockovich an Avalon and then tell her Toyota has known about the quirky transmission since the 1998 Lexus RX300 model run. I'm just glad that I haven't had the problem using the manual mode and down shifting to 1st. i'm gonna try leaving it in the "S" mode and see what happens.
Bob

ange · February 2007

The navvideo module I have is made for the avalon navigation unit. It is made in canada by G-Net Incorporated. cost $399.

The license plate camera is made by BOYO. Mfg.by Visionhitech Co. cost about $129.

You can find these on the internet.

The selling point for me was using the existing screen and not having to solder wires to install. I did not want an empty screen mounted somewhere around the dash being dark except when in reverse. ange

pmvision · February 2007

I had just visited the automobilemag.com site and saw the video there. Pretty funny. Seems like every time I'm looking for a tweak for my Avy, I find it in Lexus related material...

Anyways, worked like a charm on my '05 Limited. I really needed it today, with the blizzard hitting us in the Northeast...

Today was the first time I've been stuck in wet, heavy snow with my Avalon. I couldn't rock the car without the damn VSC kicking in. What a PITA! I thought to myself, "There's got to be way to shut it off." So, I break out the manual and on page 320 it says something along the lines of "...if the vehicle gets stuck, VSC can be turned off..." SWEET! Then it goes on to say; "...contact your Toyota dealer for detailed information." D'oh!!!

So I call my dealer, who is closed because it's a BLIZZARD. I then call the Toyota 800 number in the front of the book. When I get through to a real, live CS rep, it took about twenty minutes of patient explaination and waiting to get them to research the answer and promise to call me back. In the meantime, I go back to my office and find the info on the 'net. In less than an hour, I've got it printed out and ready to try. As I'm walking back to my stranded vehicle, my cell rings. It's the Toyota CS rep. She says that the technical people she contacted said "...the VSC system is automatic and cannot be turned off" I thanked her for calling back and told her that I found the information I needed on the Internet and was about to implement it. Minutes later, I was on my way home.

Next, replace the OEM Michelins with a fine set Nokian WR's.

wwest · February 2007

So, did you use the simple "unplug the MAF/IAT" procedure?

rpfingsten · February 2007

Hello all, and especially to you bob... I've been reading every night, just not chiming in very often.. but I have a question concerning the avy's oil filter. I always use Mobil 1 syn. oil and Filter. When I went to the local auto parts store to get a new Filter, they didn't have a cross reference book for the 07 models.. So I emailed Mobil and asked them for the correct oil filter "model".. here's the reply I got

"The 2007 Toyota Avalon 3.5l is a canister filter. Mobil one does offer that style yet."

I don't want to show my stupidity, but what is a "canister" filter.. How do they differ from "normal" filters and which is better for your car? Somebody please help an old man out. Preesh.

Roland

mem4 · February 2007

The best way I can describe it is the filter has an outer shell housing that is reusable and you change the inner pleated filter paper only. Buy one at your Toyota dealer and you will see what I mean. The filter comes with instructions and if you search here you will find a posting with pictures describing the change procedure.

tjc78 · February 2007

I actually keep a copy of the procedure in the glovebox. I have been lucky and haven't had to use it (except to test). I just want to know, who came up with that crazy series of commands. I hope on future models the "off" switch comes back.

pmvision · February 2007

...I actually keep a copy of the procedure in the glovebox...

I do now, too.

Ditto on the idea of a hardware switch.

pmvision · February 2007

So, did you use the simple "unplug the MAF/IAT" procedure?
No messing with hardware, just software.

Click the link below, print the 13 step engage/disengage procedure. Then watch the video.
How to switch off VSC on a Lexus GS430

jlsexton · February 2007

Why they went to these filters is beyond me, they appear to be emulating Mercedes Benz. My wife's Mazda, an 04 has one and in my opinion it is plain stupid & annoying. I am just turning 3000 miles on my 06 Avalon abd pray mine is not one. Could be the cost factor as I found them MORE expensive and to top it off Mazda placed the access hole in the wrong place and I had to remore the plastic pan and CUT a new access to it. Fortunately I have free oil changes from my dealer so by the time I run out I will have sold the car. Toyota has a service at 5000 miles for oil & filter & balancing. Are they now recommending a 5000 mile oil change, if so remember, they want to sell cars.

cat3126 · February 2007

One of the reasons for going to a canister filter is the canister is of thicker material and allows the use of a grove retained "O" ring or other constrained gasket.The typical oil filter and gasket assembly is known for blow ups,gasket leaks etc. Do to the upper end sludge problems Toyota and others have upped the allowable oil pressure on cold starts etc.In some cases it allows the engine manufacturer to eliminate the oil pressure relief valve completely.
The other reason is the recycling issue. It is much more easy to dispose of the paper filter cartridge and have to separate the can and gasket assembly.

wwest · February 2007

I was told by Porsche factory personnel in '01 that it was simply an environmental issue, no good reason for all those metal canisters ending up at the dump.

retired7 · February 2007

Yeah, and the Toyota parts man told me it's more environmentally friendly using the cartridege vs spin off filter. Sure not user/owner friendly to replace cartridge and the 3/8" ratchet is too small for the aluminum recess and chews up the material. I'm sure there is a special tool I can purchase from Toyota for a low price!

captain2 · February 2007

the 3/8" ratchet extension works very well for me, the center 'plug' should not be that tight. Working on my 12th oil change, and had no trouble - even found a 'standard' size cap wrench that works on the casing once the plug is removed and the oil is drained. I wouldn't give Toyota the satisfaction of paying some ridiculous price, but actually like the way the system works, I leave much less old oil dripping down the side of the engine, on the suspension parts etc. than I do, for example, on my wife's Nissan 3.5.

bobwiley · February 2007

Hi Roland---just like they've said in the other reply's--it looks like a smaller version of the removable filter on your shop vac! My mechanic has to special order, but, since he has many Toyota customer's , he keeps them in stock. Since I change my oil every 3K miles, I just have Dale use the same Valvoline he stocks. Don't rally think you'd have to use a Mobil 1 oil filter--the standard Toyota filter should be fine. Guess the best practice is to ask your dealer.
Bob

bobwiley · February 2007

Well, I tried leaving the tranny in the "S" mode and coming to a rolling stop--foot straight up and down on the gas pedal---same thing---engine rev'd to 3,500 RPM and off I went. I said--@#%!*^--well ya know what I said--anyway--I backed up, tried it my way--in 1st gear in "S" and then once moving at about 15-20 MPH, slide the gear shift over to "D"--NO NONE ZERO NATTA a slip nor surge--worked great. Tried it coming back home--same result doing it both ways. They can say what they want--there IS a problem with the tranny--but--since I can, at least for now, control it--I'll continue with my procedure. Thanks!
Bob

captain2 · February 2007

on this advice (from the same poster) glened several months ago on this site, I also drive my Avalon in S5 and of course with no issues with it at all. Would be interested to know if you experience a slight decrease in FE - I lost maybe .5 mpg. One of the reasons that the tranny operates the way it does, is, after all, to maximize FE. Glad this worked for you!

bobwiley · February 2007

Wonder why a drop in FE? S5 should be the same as D--it is a 5 speed tranny. Oh well, I've stopped trying to figure out the tranny and just resigned myself to shifting 1 S1---taking off and then shifting back to D---NEVER had a aproblem--so I guess if it anin't broke don't fix it!
Bob

havalongavalon · February 2007

Hi Bob,

The way I see it, if you shift back to D after you start in S1, you are telling the CPU to start watching your driving habits again! If you return to the same old slow down/speed up location while in D, your Av will faithfully screw up for you, again!

This is why I suggest that you shift into S5 and just leave it there. Don't shift back to D. See if this cures the surging misbehavior.

havalong

havalongavalon · February 2007

Hey Captain,

Glad that you too prefer to drive in S5. But I don't follow the argument that this may cost you some FE. I see no reason why driving in S5 would be worse than in D, FE-wise. I actually find the opposite. In S, I can often "nudge" it into a higher gear sooner than the controller would. For example, as I'm about to reach the crest of a hill, I can make the RPM drop from say 2400 to 1800 with no loss of speed nor any noticeable strain. This should help improve FE, slightly. Don't you agree?

wwest · February 2007

Nowadays to improve FE the lockup clutch is used in other, lower, gears than just O/D. My guess would be that in manual shifting position the lockup is disabled except in O/D.

That would definitely affect FE adversely.

captain2 · February 2007

havalongavalon- drive your Avalon and make a note of what the engine speeds are in all gears. For example, in top gegear ,5, you will get right at 30 mph/1000 rpm. Then, by watching the tach, and the car in drive observe what gear the car 'decides' to stay in especially coasting down from a higher speed. What you should see is a definite tendency for the car to remain in a 'highest gear' possible state, thereby reducing engine speeds and maximizing FE. In 'S' the car seems to downshift more properly, in the process getting closer to the right lower gear when I reapply the throttle, but obviously increasing engine speed and costing a little gas.
Or maybe it could be, that without the 'hesitation' I inevitably push the car a little harder and that is what is hurting the FE - which is still quite satisfactory at 27mpg overall BTW.

wwest · February 2007

This symptom is not so much about improving FE as it is providing for your safety.

With a manual transaxle and FWD you would NEVER consider using engine braking to slow the vehicle if the roadbed is slippery or you have reason to suspect it to be slippery, OAT well below freezing, black ice, etc.

ABS is nice and all but even with RWD sometimes it is simply best to lightly apply the rear e-brake, especially "sliding" down a slippery incline.

Not having an easy method for detecting roadbed condition most manufacturers of FWD have recently chosen to revise the automatic transaxle shift schedule in a manner that virtually eliminates engine braking on those front wheels at all times.

And keep in mind that it doesn't take very much engine braking to prevent ABS from being functional on an extremely low traction surface, the worse possible situation.

captain2 · February 2007

This symptom is not so much about improving FE as it is providing for your safety.
now you know I'm not going to bite on this - and I understand what you are saying - to which I will counter that FWD makes for an inherently more driveable vehicle (other than possibly AW/4WD) especially in slippery conditions, despite your well founded concerns about engine braking. If we were to outlaw FWD as somehow being patently unsafe and all cars reverted back to RWD, we would have a whole pile of folks that couldn't get around anymore - especially on snowy/icy roads. RWD does have some disadvantages.

jlsexton · February 2007

Funny I usually get an email when someones answers my question, I did not. Anyway thank you, I do not have the NAV as many complained about it in 05, so the box is out. Had you tried the cheaper unit or is this an opinion. Again I was concerned about the camera getting hit due to the license plate location. I park at meters sometimes and people apparently park by contact, as in hitting the forward and rear vehicle rather than using judgement. If you don't mind what was the ballpark price on your unit, this way I have a comparison and again thanks.

havalongavalon · February 2007

like you, captain, I watch my RPM routinely, as well as any changes in the FE display. In my experience driving in S can be more fuel efficient that driving in D, particularly on hilly terrain.

My daily commute includes 20 km (12 mi) of mixed country road/city street driving with 700 m (2300 ft) changes in elevation. I have compared driving up and down the same hills in D and in S, in light and heavy traffic, all seasons, for 2 years now.

Driving in D up a fairly steep (12%) hill at 30-40 mph, my Av will not upshift from 3rd gear until well after having cleared the crest and on flat terrain again. This was an early observation that I found a bit annoying and it prompted me to experiment with the S mode. In S, I can nudge it into 4th and sometimes 5th well before reaching the crest, with no reduction in speed and with a noticeable gain in FE.

Part of the reason obviously is that I can anticipate when the slope will change; the ECU cannot. But even after reaching level ground again, when in D, it waits too long and "hangs" in 3rd at 3500 RPM, when it could and should have upshifted earlier. When in S, my Av upshifts sooner -- or if it doesn't, I nudge it. The FE display clearly confirms the benefit of upshifting earlier.

Since 50% of my daily driving is on hilly terrain, so 25% up hills when fuel consumption is clearly highest, I find that driving in S is in fact more fuel efficient for me than driving in D.

The difference would be less for driving on mainly level roads. I assume that your daily driving does not include many hills -- correct?

havalongavalon · February 2007

jlsexton,

I recently installed, in another vehicle, a stand-alone wireless backup camera and monitor, paid Can$99 at Costco. Works very well. The camera protrudes a couple cm beyond the license plate, but remains contained within the recessed area for the plate. It would not be reached by light contact from a flat bumper from another vehicle.

I haven't tried to install one in my Av, so can't suggest how to locate the monitor and wiring. If you do, please post your solution. Thanks.

captain2 · February 2007

I can nudge it into 4th and sometimes 5th well before reaching the crest
Correct, I live in a very flat part of the US, don't get to play with hills very much. Are you leaving the tranny in S5, and 'nudging' the upshifts with your right foot, or a manual gear change?

havalongavalon · February 2007

Are you leaving the tranny in S5, and 'nudging' the upshifts with your right foot, or a manual gear change?

Manually. I keep my foot off the gas pedal as much as possible; I find this helps the FE more than anything else! Pun intended; but really, it's interesting how little you need to step on the gas with the Av, even up hills.

pat · February 2007

About the email, hit the Tracking link (it either says Change Tracking or Track this Discussion) at the end of the message list. You should have a check box to get emails sent when new messages are posted.

bobwiley · February 2007

Hi Havalong--I'll try it a few times--I'm tired of trying to "teach" a $40K car how to be driven! I'll let all know the results.
Bob

ange · February 2007

It would be difficult to bump into the backup camera mounted on the top side of license plate bracket. The camera part is indented about 1 inch from the edge of the bumper.

The cost of the plate camera and the OEM Navigation Dual Video Input Interface Module With Wiring Harness was about $500.

I looked at the bumper ,drill a hole camera, and the square units and decided they looked a little out of place and did not do anything to add positively to car.

I got the silver plate-camera to match the toyota emblems on the trunk. ange

ange · February 2007

The wiring was not too difficult. I removed the rear seat, lifted up the front and back kick plates, slipped the wires along, and then under the panel near the emergency brake. I drilled a hole through the trunk and installed the rubber a seal. I had to guess at the wire going to back up lights. On the second try, with a volt meter, found power.

One thing I noticed, Toyota did a super job designing the kick plates. Really well made. Thes are the best I have ever seen. ange

havalongavalon · February 2007

With a manual transaxle and FWD you would NEVER consider using engine braking to slow the vehicle if the roadbed is slippery or you have reason to suspect it to be slippery (...)

Not having an easy method for detecting roadbed condition most manufacturers of FWD have recently chosen to revise the automatic transaxle shift schedule in a manner that virtually eliminates engine braking on those front wheels at all times.

wwest,

I just confirmed that if in D, my 2005 Av XLS does downshift when I apply the brakes coming down a hill at say 100 km/h to reduce speed to 70, it automatically downshifts from 5th to 4th gear. When I drive in S5 on the same hill and apply the brakes in the same manner, it does not downshift.

You say this programmed downshift is dangerous. Since the Av is equipped with multiple sensors ("It may be icy?") I wonder whether it is also programmed to not downshift when conditions are dangerously slippery? I have not checked this.

Also, if things go sour I expect the Av VSC to take over. But, wouldn't VSC actions also involve downshifting?

havalongavalon · February 2007

Captain,

Earlier I mentioned the FE benefit of driving in S5, UP hills. Since the Av is programmed to use engine braking when in D, and engine braking is likely to affect FE, driving in S5 DOWN hills is also likely to improve FE.

Maybe you'll want to visit New Mexico to check this out

jlsexton · February 2007

I'll take your word on it and thank you for the heads-up on the wiring. I also prefer a wired camera to the wirelss, is there a particular product superior to the others. I often use buydig.com but a search might find me one.

wwest · February 2007

To alleviate the possibility of stalling the engine when you apply the brakes the lockup clutch is ALWAYS disabled the instant the brake lights come on. And absent the lockup clutch the transaxle CANNOT run in any O/D gear ratio.

So yes, upon brake application the SOLID COUPLING from the engine to the drive wheels MUST be removed in favor of the slush pump, torque converter, only.

Obviously, also, you will get less engine braking via the slush pump vs the solid engine coupling provided by the lockup clutch.

VSC uses brake application, or if the brakes are already applied brake UN-application.

My 2001 AWD RX300 will apply both rear brakes, to help slow the RX and thereby regain traction at the front, if understearing is detected. If braking is already applied it will "lighten" the braking at the front. With overstearing it will brake the front wheel on the outside of the turn/skid, or "lighten" the braking on the inside front wheel.

Apparently Ford is already using the OAT sensor readings to significantly reduce the level of regenerative braking on the FWD hybrid Escape and Mariner vehicles when the local climate nears or is below freezing.

More marques to follow...?

captain2 · February 2007

the fact that you can upshift uphill would be a testament to the flat torque curve that our 2GRs have

. Don't tempt me, might just have to poke my skis thru the back seat, and get over to Taos. I would actually look forward to the 1000 mile+ drive and the 2 tanks of gas it would take to do it.
Did rotate my tires today, my Michelins (after 43k) looking like they need replacing soon - anybody got any ideas?

bobwiley · February 2007

captain2: Do you have the front end aligned at least every year? Actually its a 4 wheel alignmnet. Also, I check the tire pressure every month. I keep 35 PSI in my Michelin Energy whatevers--I have an 06 Limited--my Michelin dealer told me that was "optimum" PSI and still providing a good ride and tread wear. I also rotate them every 2nd oil change--I do 3,000 mile oil changes. Firestone used to offer a "lifetime Alignment" program, about $175--I bought it for the wife's Jeep Grand Cherokee Limited before we moved to the lake--problem is the closest Firestone place is near Ft Leonard Wood, about 50 miles away. I had BF Goodrich Long Trails on my F-150 and by following the above suggestions, I got over 60,000 miles out of them and Joel, our tire dealer asked why i was getting new ones--he said I still had over 10K miles left. I told him--I like plenty of tread! You should get an easy 75K plus miles from the Michelins with proper care.
Bob

2005-2007 Toyota Avalon

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