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Comments
4) These boards are not representative samplings - thus responses tend to reflect significant positive or negative experiences. My experience may/may not be representative. J.D. Power surveys are perhaps a better gauge of true customer experience.
I'm sure you meant 2.5T, as a T5 is an entirely different animal produced by Volvo.
Regards to info derived from J.D. Powers (and Consumer Reports, for that matter). I've never put much stock in either publication due to how the data is compiled and the small numbers surveyed in relation to vehicles sold.
Granted, your experience appears to bear out the poor rating(s) the Volvo XC90 receives in those publications. However, for every owner in your circumstance, there are multiple owners who have had no, or relatively few minor problems.
I understand lev's feelings about providing some balanced perspective to these boards - as they are condusive to complaints more so than to compliments. People are generally predisposed to putting forth the time (and often rightly so) to complain or seek answers/suggestions to their problems. People are much less likely to put forth time and effort to say nothings wrong.
I did not expect you will take it so personally. What is that? The self-implored guilt?
My message was not point against you at all, but was to express to the other person my believe that this board is not objective, but is negatively skewed.
"Since I am being besmearched, I feel compelled to respond:"
You probably have mentioned "besmirched" (soiled, stained)?
"1) I have not posted "many-many messages on the different boards" - perhaps less than a dozen on the XC-90 and Problems and solutions boards re: my XC-90."
I will take "many-many" back. "Less than a dozen" will do.
"2) The information I've provided is accurate and objective and affects a T5-AWD '04 vehicle purchased in June '03."
I never said it is not.
"3) I have no vendetta with Volvo and have over 30 years experience with vehicles including U.S., European, and Asian brands."
I never said that you do have a vendetta, or that you are a novice to cars.
"4) These boards are not representative samplings - thus responses tend to reflect significant positive or negative experiences. My experience may/may not be representative. J.D. Power surveys are perhaps a better gauge of true customer experience."
Does it mean that you agree with my point of this board being non-objective?
"5) Greater than 10 significant problems in less than 10 months of ownership is out of the ordinary by any measure. Before one writes this off as a "lemon", they'd better have the data to back this assertion up. I have inquired about each and every problem I have experienced with this vehicle ( to Volvo and the dealership) and in the majority of the cases these are "known" issues or have "TSB's" associated with them. Therefore, it is less likely that the problems are "freak" issues. Docroger2 and others have posted similar experiences with their XC-90's so perhaps you want to bash them as well?"
Absolutely, I will freak out, if I would be in your shoes. But it does change the fact that you have such a bad experience with ONE car, but had posted about a dozen messages. And, by the way, there is nothing wrong with it. I was not judgemental, I have just maid the point the the unhappy owners are much more vocal.
"6) IMHO an informed consumer is a wise consumer, and trying to censor information is counter productive and un-American."
And in which way did I censor the information? Do you understand the meaning of the word "censoring"? That what Meriam-Webster says:
Main Entry: 2censor
Function: transitive verb
Inflected Form(s): cen·sored; cen·sor·ing /'sen(t)-s&-ri[ng], 'sen(t)s-ri[ng]/
: to examine in order to suppress or delete anything considered objectionable
I have no means of doing any of this, neither suppressing nor deleting.
And since when expressing an opinion that is different from yours has become un-American. I do not think you own this country.
So, please, let's focus on the cars, not on the personalities.
And at the end of the day, my posting as well as couple other ones, and as well as yours, helped the fellow reader to make an educated decision about the car.
Once again my message was never meant as a personal atack.
Sincerely,
Lev.
For the second time I am getting a very personal response, as soon as I dare just to mention that this board can be biased, even that I have never said that the negative bias is intentional.
Any advice?
The nature of "problems" is that they are something negative and are to be reckoned with. You'll need to look elsewhere if you're into promoting the XC90 and worried about its image with respect to other vehicles. We're here to deal with the problems and not to tally "positives" and "negatives."
tidester, host
Guy
True, but sometimes there are statements of problems and no request for solutions. Heck, many threads have posts that are not associated with the topic heading.
Getting tired of reading the same 'griping' on the "Problems and Solutions" board that don't look for help on resolution AND are already posted verbatim on the general XC90 board.
I'll go to another area on Edmunds to have the debate.
I expect to find "harping" in this area of the message board. It's OK with me if someone just comes here to dump on the car and not suggest solutions, etc.
I think we are all with the host.
I also want to have a board where people will share their problems and look for the resolutions.
The issue is that I have responded to the particular question from "zeen" asking if he is not crazy buying the XC90 after reading so many "negative" messages. In my response I have merely stated that the boards like this are negatively skewed (in your own words - it's the "Problems" board), and one troublesome car can generate many postings on this board (which is true as well).
And that was it!!!
If you read my postings again you will see, that I did not discuss whether XC90 is good or bad on this board. I just have responded to the particular question in the manner that I have found appropriate.
And I want to leave this issue at that.
Zeen has leased a car, as we know now, so my and "guyf" responses seems to work.
I am also participating in the Volvo S80 board. Read it. It's much more balanced now, but it started very similar to the present one.
I admit, I am trying to bring a "centristic" balance to the discussions.
It was I reading your posting from the defensive point and forgetting that it applies to other side too...
I don't want to escalate this into a war of words, but "armd" has posted in a articulate and detailed manner the facts surrounding his problems. I, as an interested prospective Volvo buyer, come to this forum to see actual FACTUAL information.
I don't find your generic cheerleading for Volvo on the basis of "balance" to have any value on this forum. I can get that from my local Volvo sales person anytime I want. Lev, I suspect that your Volvo could explode when you started it up and you'd be claiming from the hospital bed that it was still a great car. You are NOT the authority on objectivity or "balance". And that's fine, just try to keep your cheerleading confined to the "other" XC90 forum as you have been doing since I first started researching Volvo. I actually appreciate seeing that you are a happy Volvo customer, but your apparant inablility to quietly allow someone else to specify the problems they have had undermines YOUR credibility, not theirs. So, please, do not discredit armd or discourage others from posting their actual problems. He has done so in a concise way that I can actually have an intelligent discussion with a Volvo service manager before I take a $45k plunge.
I would appeal to the host that, if I'm off base, to tell me; but otherwise re-remind us all of the title of this forum. It is apparant that others don't get it.
P.S I don't think "Problems and Soultions" was meant to imply that you had to have solutions before you were allowed to post your problems.
I don't believe anyone here has worked to discourage others from posting their actual problems and looking for solutions.
Also, sorry that you view me as a cheerleader. I think that the only thing that I genuinely cheerlead for is the Overseas Delivery Program as it was phenomenal. I would think that anyone that is looking to take a $42-$50k plunge would also want to know that there are some individuals that have not had issues with their vehicles.
P.S. I think that I exhibit above that "Problems and Solutions" was meant to imply that one has a Problem and they are actually looking for a Solution and THAT is why one is posting their problems. I think you should go buy the Lexus as there don't seem to be any problems on that car posted under this topic.
Apologies if you and I are not seeing eye to eye on that.
Well said,
I thought for the moment, that this discussion thread was over, but...
Edward,
My alleged "cheer leading" comes from years of enjoinment of driving Volvos. I am really sorry for the people who do not, but what can I do? I and all my family ARE happy with our Volvos.
Now, If you read this board, as well as other "Problems and Solution" boards, you will find that any time when people state their problems and ask for the specific solutions, and I know a solution, I do not "cheer lead" at all, but provide a particular and concise answer.
Also,
I truly do not appreciate, when people put their words into my mouth.
I have made ONLY TWO statement in regards to armd's postings, and it was in response to the request to sort things out from zeen - "AM I CRAZY EVEN CONSIDER THE VOLVO AFTER ALL THESE NEGATIVE MESSAGES?"
Those statements were:
1. THE BOARD IS "NEGATIVELY BIASED"
2. ONE CAR HAS GENERATED "MANY_MANY" (now I have counted them - 8) "NEGATIVE POSTINGS"
bellow is an actual quote from that "infamous' posting of mine:
"P.S.: Mind your own interests, when reading the boards. There is unproportional number of the negative messages here. I have mentioned recently that armd posted many-many messages on the different boards about one car"
And that was it.
Honestly,
When it comes to it - I want you to quote any of my "cheer leading" statements form THIS board. It would be interesting to see...
In the same posting I also have provided, what I believe, a fair assertion of the modern cars quality and rated Volvo as average. Hardly the "cheerleading"
And last but not least
Why should I be quite?
If you do not like my posting, just skip them, they are clearly marked with my name.
There is already an audience here that appreciate and, hopefully, share my experiences and knowledge. I will be more than happy to write just for them.
It will not break my heart if you, Edward, will stop reading my messages.
My apologies for the harshness, but I neither appreciate the attitude you have expressed in your posting nor believe that it should let be unanswered.
No hard feelings though on my part, it is actually a good exercise for the debate skills.
I hope you feel the same way.
Best regards,
Lev.
And it's normal for people to want to warn other owners of problems their rig had. Some take it more personally than they should perhaps, especially since all cars have problems.
Fortunately cars keep getting better and better; I might even consider a Volvo again after my experiences with them in the 70's :-)
Let's get back to the XC 90 now, please.
Steve, Host
Thanks for all your advice.
Black does look sharp. We ordered the Ruby Red (which was our second choice after the black) because we already have the black S80 in our household.
And can I say it for the sake of habitat1?
I am not sure that I will be writing this congratulatory note, if I and other folks would not comment on armd's "Saga"
Marc,Would you agree?
Thanks. If I followed your advice I'd create a dent and probably ruin the paint. In any event, I understand that this board is for problems and not praise. The XC90 SUV group is more appropriately for praise. On the other hand, if you look at the message board for any other vehicle, you will see countless postings of problems. Take a look at BMW, Toyota etc. In addition, probably in excess of 99% of the Volvo XC90 owners don't participate in this discussion so the sampling here is skewed by the fact that we are all car nuts with very high standards and free time on our hands to surf this site.
Most folks just bring the car to the dealer to iron out the problems and don't think much about it. In any event, once I can nail down the programming of my homelink button with my rolling code garage opener I'll be a very happy XC90 owner.
On to SC 135. As I posted some 3 weeks ago, Volvo has announced a Service Campaign - XC-90 owners should be/received a letter. Well, I took it in and here's what they did:
135D - the infamous key debacle where the key ring keeps popping out of the side of the remote. Poor design? You betcha! Volvo's fix (hold on - you're not getting new remotes) put a swivel on the ring (like one in your tackle box). I'm not kidding you. Worked for about five minutes, then fell off.
135F - Updated tailgate latch per bulletin.
135G - Updated 3rd row seat per bulletin.
135H - Updated floor vent air flow distribution system per bulletin. Not sure what this did, but the fan appears to be running at a higher velocity in "auto" mode. More annoying.
135I - Installed updated seat belt guides per bulletin.
In terms of the issues mentioned in my last post:
1)New driver's side seat belt assembly - fixed the clicking noise. So far, so good.
2) Software updates for the windows - problem was that the windows don't cinch up all of the way causing wind noise. Volvo apparently updated the software, however, the extra "cinch" only occurs if you manually hold the window button all of the way. In "auto" mode, clicking it once does not cause the windows to "cinch", necessitating another click of the button to close them completely.
OK stone throwers, go to it - I have a hard head so the rocks will only bounce off!
Regards to the keyring debacle. What causes your key ring to come off the fob? How many keys do you keep on your ring? Does the fob itself open up and allow the little `d' ring to pop out, or does the `d'ring open up, slipping off the fob?
For the key fob, I personnaly attached 5 additional keys to it without any problems on both fobs. Mine came with a small but solid "ring" that goes trough the plastic and then a flimsy larger ring that held the key code and stock number info.
I got rid of that large flimsy ring and used regular ones I had. Again no problem but I can see that the small ring going trough the plastic of the fob could be pried away if you twist it.
Mine came with the software update for the windows. However I do not have wind noise raising the window either way, either holding the switch or letting the window go up in auto mode.
Guy
Thanks
Most annoying problem....Battery died on Cape Cod stranding us on vacation
Most Humurous Problem...when the sun shines on the car, something expands in the liftgate and the trunk release won't work.
Most recurrent problem....Defective rear Shock Absorbers
Most mysterious problem....Grinding/Whooping sound from drive train
I've owned many cars.....they didn't get this one right, and noone from Volvo ever followed up on any of the problems by phone to check my satisfaction. That is in marked contrast to Audi and VW who seem to care much more.
I can't "trust" this car; that's why it's going. I hope everyone else has better luck......
That being said, I don't think that there was any customer support infrastructure to address these problems in a significant way above the dealer level, and that's dissapointing in a $45K vehicle.
Actually, I can't keep any keys on the ring because the ring keeps falling off. On my version of the key, there isn't a 'D' ring, just a large 'O' shaped ring which fits in the corner of the plastic. A small amount of torque on the plastic causes the two halves of the assembly to open slightly and the ring pop's out. A great magic trick, but not a great key ring.
Since you had this problem, did they do anything to fix this?
For the key fob, I personnaly attached 5 additional keys to it without any problems on both fobs. Mine came with a small but solid "ring" that goes trough the plastic and then a flimsy larger ring that held the key code and stock number info....
Mine came with the software update for the windows. However I do not have wind noise raising the window either way, either holding the switch or letting the window go up in auto mode.
With regard to the headlight washers, once they installed a breaker, the unit seemed to work fine. I can't tell you precisely whether this was a power surge or current draw issue.
About the key, they must have redesigned the key. The better part of valor would have been to give those with poorly designed keys, new ones.
Finally, about the windows, consider yourself lucky! Mine still go up and then sag down about an 1/8th of an inch. Not enough to allow rain and stuff through, but sufficient to permit wind noise. Having to "cinch" up the windows twice everytime you raise them is a bit of an pain.
Guy, I am David3, lost me sign in info. I had 17inch wheels. Yes, alignment was done.
I did some homework. The early manufacturing run of 1993 xc90s had a factory alignment issue which may lead to excessive tire ware. Volvo USA is all over this and is replacing the car. I will pay a small "trade in" amount for a new one, a 2004, and will hope for no more excessive tire issues. Had other related issues including 2 bad struts, a seat heater that went and rear sensors that went and a few other service issues. All in 14 months. As a first time Volvo user I give Volvo USA extremely high marks and my dealer in Norhtern New England a poor rating for trying to cover things up and stick me with all the bills. They relented when I fought.
Guy
Also, when it does recognize one, it takes several minutes to start up. Is this normal?
Turning radius could be better too. But overall, it's great.
I'm surprised however that it doesn't come with a retractable cargo cover for the back. My base GMC did and that had an MSRP about $10k less.
I would not be surprised with the retractable cargo area cover. It usually goes along with the "fixed" rear most seat.
In our case, the third row option, the versatility of the seating arrangements as well as some safety considerations present quite a challenge to the designers of the cargo cover.
So Volvo probably has decided (and from my stand point justifiable so ) to apply their engineering resources elsewhere: active and passive safety, interior space management, etc.
Could they do both? Probably,
But is there such thing as a cargo area cover in any of the SUV's with the optional 3rd row? I do not know?
Do you?
In Canada the XC90 does come with a net that goes from the ceiling to just above the floor. It can be mounted behind the 1st row or 2nd row. It's not heavy duty but will keep lighter cargo in the back in case of sudden braking or the like. It folds and zip in a pouch for easy storage.
I wished, that I could just leave it somewhere, but unfortunately, I have rented the car in Rome and dropped it off in Paris. So I had to deal with it at every stop.
Since then, I am dubious about those covers. The light weight blanket will do.
Both of them can not be used with the third row up.
Volvomax, Am I right? Is anything else out there?
I got the verst pkg (3rd row). There is a soft vinyl retractable cargo cover can be put after the second row. You can remove that if you don't want that. And it came separate when I took delivery. The dealer just put that in the trunk. I look at the volvo web site and it seems to be come with it for the model as a standard. I suspect the dealer just forgot to give it to you. Better check with them before someone put it up on the ebay :->
+1 for Volvo. And you are absolutely right - Cargo security cover (or luggage cover in the OSD specs) is standard for all the trims.
I have not noticed one during the drive test. Maybe it was just removed for the "safety" reasons by the dealer on the demo car.
During my test drive in November that is exactly what happened. Our salesperson had the cover removed for our test drive. The cover was given to us once we purchased the vehicle.