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Mileage Fraud!! Odometer was rolled back!!! What to do?

13

Comments

  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    Interesting. Glad I don't have a GM then!

    -mike
  • geo9geo9 Member Posts: 735
    Another thing I read at those sites...........
    The mileage is stored in the cluster memory not the
    PCM. There WAS a few posts on this and how to disconnect
    the odo on the GMT-800 trucks by simply unhooking a
    wire off the underhood bulkhead connector.

    Yet again other posts (also removed) of a 'puter head
    had a homebrew program in his laptop to simply plug in
    his laptop and alter odo readings with no trace in the
    cluster or PCM......................

    I assume it CAN be done to ANY of these newer vehicles
    with a digital odo reading. The good old days of disassembling the dash and rolling back the mile scroll
    is almost long gone............

    I guess the best way to protect yourself is Carfax,
    state inspection records, dealer warranty reports etc.
    But NO method is foolproof nowadaze !!!!!!!!!! :sick:
  • oldfarmer50oldfarmer50 Member Posts: 22,562
    Many years ago the odometer on my one year old Dodge stopped working at 13K. It was fixed under warranty. The new unit was set at zero. The only difference was that the tenth mile number was red instead of black like the original.

    I sold the car years later with 120K actual miles (107K on the dial) for $350. I told the kid about the difference but he didn't care.

    My question: Did I commit a crime by not having a sticker on the door? I don't remember if there were mileage statements you had to sign way back then. Will the police, FBI, CIA and George Bush be coming after me now?

    2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible

  • geo9geo9 Member Posts: 735
    Are you hearing that LOUD pounding on your door ??????

    The men with the badges and guns want to talk to you
    and slip a nice pair of silver bracelets on your wrists
    and take you for a ride in a new full size Ford to see
    you local courthouse and see judge Hangemhigh !

    Have FUN and argue and struggle with them ! They would LOVE
    to try out their new nightsticks on your head......... :sick:

    Not to worry..... the statue (spl) of limitations has expired! :P j/k

    NO wait.........odo tampering is a FED rap ! Them folks
    in the nice suits aren't siding salesmen..........
    Agents Mulder and Scully got a new job assignment.
    The X-files of odo tampering !

    You are about to enter a new dimension of sight and sounds.........(regrets to Rod Serling) !!!!!!!!!
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Okayyyy....so he has his service records which says "September '05, 25,000 mile service" and then another one "October '06, 35,000 mile service", and a dealer sticker that says "Nov. '06 odometer changed at 36,000, now reads zero" and he's selling you the car in April '07 with 5,000 miles on it.

    So given he monthly mileage rate, chances are pretty good the mileage on this car is right around 41,000.

    Do we know "exactly"?

    No.

    But do we really "know"?

    Yes we do.

    I suppose he could have driven to Guatemala and back with a broken odometer during late October, early November, but.....not likely....
  • jrdwyerjrdwyer Member Posts: 168
    In Indiana, if a vehicle is over 10 years old, you can just write the words EXEMPT in the mileage statement. We just financed (for our son who is paying us back) a 1994 Chrysler LHS (one owner, great condition, 99K miles) with this exempt situation. It was a new car trade-in that was auctioned by a large dealer and picked up by a small dealer and then bought by us.

    Back in my college days I belonged to this recreational type club that would rent university car pool vans for club trips. I had recently joined and happened to be at the club leader's house one day when I see the president and vice president on the dash of a university van with an electric drill. I was naive/unaware of what they were doing until I became club president a few years later. It turns out our student body funded/budgeted 2,000 mile club tips were only billed by car pool for 400 miles and the extra funds were being used instead for recreational equipment purchases! Our crafty/law bending club leaders were also budgeting new recreation equipment (all that was allowed) and buying two used pieces instead.

    It was all up-and-up the two years I ran the club.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    I've noticed in research that a number of states don't require mileage statements after the car is ten years old. This sort of make sense, since the number of miles on an old used car that isn't a "classic" is only marginally relevant to value. If your 1997 Honda has 88K or 108K nobody cares. Maybe the lower miles are worth a few hundred dollars.
  • jlawrence01jlawrence01 Member Posts: 1,757
    And sometimes, when the car has over 100k miles ...
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    A TMU car is forever branded as TMU.

    If your odometer needs to be replaced it's just your tough luck. You can't order a guage cluster with a certain number of miles on the odometer. Even if you could, how would a person know how many miles the car was driven with a non-working odometer?

    Oh, some potential buyers wouldnt' be bothered. Tehy would look at the door sticker and be comfortable with that.

    But a lot of others wouldn't touch that car and on a trade in it would be hit hard. The newer and more expensive car, the worse the effect. On a ten year old car, most people wouldn't care.

    Years ago, I heard they had "clock guys" who would work the car lots just like the paintless dent guys and other vendors do now. For ten dollars, they would "clock" the cars and roll them back. I guess it was pretty commonplace back in the 50's and 60's.

    Years ago, I had a 1964 VW bug that developed a noisy speedo head. For 5.00, I was allowed to root through a large box of VW speedometers and pick the one I liked.

    I remember, at the time I was more concerned over the condition of it then the miles it displayed.

    Replacing it was a ten minute job.
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    You can purchase an ECU computer that will allow you to set the miles to anything you want for certain cars. Others you need to replace the cluster itself from a junk yard.

    -mike
  • joel0622joel0622 Member Posts: 3,299
    We have traded for cars before with broken odometers and not know it till well after the fact. Normally they are old sleds anyhow so we don't pursue it even though you sign two different forms stating it is accurate, but hey a $1500 car is a $1500 car, it is destined for a note lot regardless.

    Though we have had occasions where it made a huge difference on 30K mile cars. Talking $3K-$4K difference and the only way we were able to satisfy it was by going to the point of telling the customer that falsifying a Federal Odometer Statement is against the law.
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    I've heard of this but, given the harsh penalities, I'm surprised that anyone wold take the risk!

    We don't even kid about this.
  • erniesalerniesal Member Posts: 2
    Recently, I bought a used instrument cluster from a parts supplier. My original wasn't working properly, including the odometer. The whole thing was pretty well shot. The odometer reading on the original was a little over 90,000 miles before it quit working, which was just recently. The reading on the one that replaced it is over 161,000. I realize I should have asked about this before buying a used cluster.
    Anyway, is there anything I can do? Or am I screwed?
  • oldfarmer50oldfarmer50 Member Posts: 22,562
    "...is there anything I can do?..."

    I supose it depends on where you got it and what the terms were. If you pulled it out of a junkyard car I would say you are screwed unless the salvage guy has a big heart. Usually they will only refund your money if the part is defective.

    If I was buying a car from a private party and the guy told me your story, I would walk as I would assume the car really had 161,000 miles. Unless, of course, you could prove what you say with paperwork of some sort.

    2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible

  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Well what kind of car are we talking about here? If it's an older domestic, for instance, chances are you haven't actually been harmed financially. Maybe you could call DMV and see if they issue a correction sticker in your state. Also records like CARFAX would show the correct mileage of your car.
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 19,256
    i had a car with a digital odometer readout inthe dash. the odometer was ok, but the trip odometer stopped working.
    the dealer asked me how many miles i thought i would have on the car in 3-4 days, so i gave them an estimate.
    turns out i drove about 30 miles further, but the new cluster had the number i told them i thought it would have, when i got it back.
    2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • erniesalerniesal Member Posts: 2
    The car is a 99 Chevy Blazer? Can the mileage on the replacement odometer be set back?
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    You know, the resale value is very low on that truck anyway, so it really doesn't matter except, I realize, that it is annoying to you. I think the odometer can be rebuilt and reset by specialists like:

    THIS ONE

    I don't know those people so I'm NOT recommending them.

    But if you are worried that this error makes your truck worth less, no it doesn't IMO. Also, I hardly think you could get into trouble for selling a truck with fewer miles on it than registered on the odom.
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    The trouble is your car is now a TMU car and it's value will be forever hurt by this.
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 19,256
    traded it last year. got average trade for it.
    the dealer i traded in at, not selling dealer, posted a carfax report on their website.
    that repair was listed as check instruments, check dash gauges, or something like that.
    2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    That car still has to be sold as a TMU car and that scares a lot of people.
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 19,256
    it scared me when i got it appraised as a trade in!
    there was never anything physically put on the car to indicate it as a TMU.
    looking at the carfax, i didn't see anything that would point to that either.
    2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    They should have put a sticker in teh inner door jamb.

    The sticker states the miles on the old odometer and the miles on the new.

    Still, a TMU car and still tainted merchandise.

    You did get lucky!
  • carpetguycarpetguy Member Posts: 1
    I am in the process of buying a 2008 Kia Optima. The odometer states that it has 202 miles on it, However the sales manager slipped up and said it was a demo, and thought it had a lot more, as a matter of fact he said he would give us a real good deal. After the paperwork the good deal works out to 21000 +, he said the rebate was taken by americredit and put over to me in a lower interest rate (17%) instead. I started checking things, tires are worn, yet rotors gleam and have crosshatching visible. The calipers look brand new, yet the brake pedal is worn, and best of all the engine air filter is brand new, yet the cabin air filter is filthy, and the ac smelled real bad (hence checking the filter) The new car smell is long gone, and they did a poor job detailing it. The other kicker is we had to sign an as is disclaimer, yet they are selling it to us as new. How do I check to find the actual mileage, and can i sue the pants off them if it has been tampered with?

    Any input would be appreciated

    Thanks
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Seems crazy for a dealer to do this. You don't have to sue them, they can be put in JAIL. This is a Federal crime. Jail time to make a couple thou extra on a Kia. Seems insane, doesn't it?

    Anyway, best thing to do if you are suspicious is to just walk away. There is no Kia shortage last time I looked.

    You can buy a 2009 Optima for this money anyway.

    Just take a walk on this whole deal.
  • fezofezo Member Posts: 10,384
    17% is a lower rate? Where the heck did it start?
    2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    another reason to walk. :sick:
  • solaraman2003solaraman2003 Member Posts: 92
    Hello.

    I am in a very simliar situation. A dealer is offering me a 2008 "NEW" vehicle that has 220 miles on the odometer. The CarFax report is showing that a few months ago it had 15,000 miles on it (from service done at that very dealership!).

    The salesman asserts that this IS and WILL BE SOLD TO ME as a "NEW" vehicle, and that the CarFax data is wrong. He said he will attempt to rectify this with them, but that could take months.

    How can I confirm, through visual inspection, whether the car has 15,000 miles on it. Since this is a big discrepancy in the mileage, I'm sure there are some things I can look for that will give me the answer. Tires, fluids, filters can all be changed, so that's not going to cut it.

    Thank you in advance !
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Seems highly unlikely that a dealership would risk possible jail time (this is a Federal offense) to make a little money, and to try to do it so boldly. CARFAX is hardly infallible. I've caught any number of mistakes on it.

    You could always try to run the VIN # through DMV. If they never registered it, that was a helluva demo car then.

    So the car has its window sticker, MSO, owner's books all wrapped up neatly, all that stuff?
  • bolivarbolivar Member Posts: 2,316
    Exactly what does the Carfax show? If it shows the car being sold from that dealer to a private individual with 15,000 miles, this is very strange. But if it shows the car going into the dealers inventory with 15,000 miles, then it is probably an error. It probably was 15 miles and someones finger twitched on the 0 three times.
  • solaraman2003solaraman2003 Member Posts: 92
    1. The car was NEVER REGISTERED, only titled to two different dealerships. The car was supposedly purchased by one dealership from another.

    2.Window sticker appears fully intact. I didn't examine it very very closely, but the salesman told me over the phone that it is completely intact, never removed. I can check that when i go there this week.

    3. I didn't ask about the MSO. I'm not sure what that would tell me since I believe the originating dealer was Dealer 1 who sold it to Dealer 2.
  • solaraman2003solaraman2003 Member Posts: 92
    Here's an overview of the CarFax:
    10/7/2007 11 miles Dealer_1 Vehicle offered for sale
    10/13/2007 ------ Dealer_1 Pre-Delivery inspection completed.
    10/13/2008 ----------- Dealer_1 Vehicle serviced.
    2/15/2009 ------------- "Dealer Inventory" Vehicle offered for sale.
    3/1/2009 15,436 miles Dealer_2 Vehicle serviced.
    5/1/2009 15,447 miles Dealer_2 Vehicle serviced.

    Some other facts:

    1.The dealership has an "A+" rating with the Better Business Bureau.

    2.When I first inquired about this vehicle on the phone, I spoke to 3 different people and got different responses from them as to whether this was a "new" vehicle or a "used" one. Some of their own internal records seem to have the car listed as a "used" car. For instance, the first salesman I spoke to on the phone said to me that "although the car is brand new, the title changed from one dealer to us and so it would have to be sold to you on paper as a "used" car even though it's brand new." He eventually backed down on that saying that "no, it is a NEW car and will be sold to you as "NEW". The good salesman I am now dealing with even tells me that the key has a "USED" inventory tag on it !

    3.The first salesman gave me a copy of the "vehicle inquiry report". It shows:
    Category = "H"
    Ship Date = 8/30/2007
    Retail Date = 10/20/008
    Date of First Use = 10/20/2008
    "NON-FLEET"
    "Retailed for more than a year"

    So what I also don't know is how does that "vehicle inquiry report" data get updated and what does that stuff actually mean? What does all that mean in relation to the CarFax data?
  • delthekingdeltheking Member Posts: 1,152
    Carfax also reports if it is a 1 or 2 owner info.Can u provide that info?It also gives info if it was sold as fleet or corporate lease.
    Do u have that info?
  • delthekingdeltheking Member Posts: 1,152
    A follow up-if it says retailed,then most probably it is a used car.
    And the salesmen might be confused and the sales manager manager may be totally unaware of these transactions.
    Sometimes salespeople do not know everything about the car`s history and sometimes can give u inaccurate info ,Unintentionally of course..Mistakes can happen or probably they are just too lazy to find out the whole info on that car.
    My advice would be- call and speak to the New Car Manager/Sales manager and he an figure things out for u.
  • solaraman2003solaraman2003 Member Posts: 92
    I have requested 12 different CarFax reports from vehicles I have looked at, so I am a little familiar with what entries they can contain.

    This one, like most I have requested, doesn't say anything about 1-owner or 2-owner. I have one from 1-owner vehicle and that one does indeed clearly state that fact.

    There is no mention of "fleet" or "corporate lease". The "Vehicle Inquiry Reports" that I have all say "NON-FLEET" for all the new cars I've looked at.

    The "retailed" statement is on the "Vehicle Inquiry Report" and reads "Retailed for more than a year". I don't know exactly what that means. Perhaps it just means that it was put up for sale for more than a year.

    As I said, the saleman (who seems to be on the ball) explains that this information is all erroneous, and that he CAN clear it up with time.

    I wanted to know how often mistakes like this happen, why is there misinformation on the "Vehicle Inquiry Report" as well, how easy it might be for him to correct the CarFax record, and ....whether or not I should go ahead a PURCHASE the vehicle with the erroneous information in CarFax.

    If I buy the car with the erroneous CarFax info on record, what happens when I go to sell the car next year, or 2 or 6 years from now? What would you think as a prospective buyer? I know if it were me I would lose interest immediately because I would suspect that there was some major incident with the vehicle. In other words, the first time I go for registration/title/inspection/repairs at dealer, there will be an entry in CarFax that now says "225 miles .... Vehicle Serviced". What would you think if you saw that entry just folllowing an entry that stated there was over 15,000 miles on the car?

    I'm concerned about 2 things:

    1) That the 220 miles IS INDEED the true mileage, and the info I'm seeing is erroneous.
    2) Clearing up the erroneous record(s).

    If those two issues are satisfied, I can then negotiate to buy the car and sleep at night (or day).

    Thank you.
  • cccompsoncccompson Member Posts: 2,382
    "I know that if were me I would lose interest immediately...." Well, it is YOU, why are you still interested?

    It doesn't matter what the true state of affairs is here - the value of the vehicle is compromised by the existing documentary record. Carfax makes mistakes all the time. Sometimes they can be rectified and sometimes they can't.

    If you're really that interested, just tell the dealer to call you when the records have been cleared up. Until then, steer clear.
  • bolivarbolivar Member Posts: 2,316
    And what bothers me, you said there are TWO entries about dealer service, with a few miles different, showing the 15,xxx mile range.

    One could be a mistake. But two?

    In general, unless the price of this car is what a 15,000 mile used car could be bought for, and you really, really want this car, I would run away.
  • qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 32,891
    What will happen is, you buy the car and register and inspect it. The DMV will record "220" miles. Now the next carfax will say there is an odometer discrepancy, indicating possible rollback. So you need to steer clear of this.

    '11 GMC Sierra 1500; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP; '11 Mini Cooper S

  • lokkilokki Member Posts: 1,200
    So, you go to trade or sell in 4 years, and Surprise! The car fax isn't straightened out. You're trying to explain that YOU didn't tamper with the odometer and tell the story - "and you can even phone home and ask my wife!". And she's the only character witness you're going to have because everyone at the dealership will have moved somewhere else by then.

    There are just too many other cars out there right now.
  • solaraman2003solaraman2003 Member Posts: 92
    I've examined the car top-to-bottom, inside and out. I have found no evidence that this car has anywhere near 15,000 miles. The salesman had told me that they do not use CarFax anymore, but they use AutoCheck. I asked him for the report and he gave it to me. The AutoCheck report did NOT have the (erroneous) entries on it.

    I ended up purchasing the car from them, and I also asked for a separate signed letter attesting to the fact that it is a NEW vehicle and that the manufacturer's 3/36 warranty began on my date of purchase, and that the CarFax erroneous entries will be cleared up.
  • lokkilokki Member Posts: 1,200
    That works... I'd also send a certified letter to CarFax including a copy of the AutoCheck report asking them to correct the record. Not that they will, but keep a copy of the letter, and you should be bullet-proof at resale time.
  • solaraman2003solaraman2003 Member Posts: 92
    lokki,

    I'm 2 steps ahead of you :)

    I already emails CarFax and explained the situation to them yesterday. Today, I received an email from them saying that they've contacted the dealer and confirmed that the two mileage entries were erroneous. They removed the entries. I reran the report and the entries are gone !

    Thank you everyone for your input. These forums on Edmunds are GRRREAAATTT ! :)
  • mitzijmitzij Member Posts: 613
    If you have the VIN, you can call another dealer with it and have them pull any warranty history it might have. They'd be able to tell you if the warranty has started counting down yet or not. Ask for the Service Department, tell the you're checking the warranty start date and mileage. See how much info they can give you. Some dealers might tell you everything they know, others might just give you the date and mileage and not tell you any warranty work that was done. This is their prerogative-they owe you nothing. Be nice and see how much info you get.
  • solaraman2003solaraman2003 Member Posts: 92
    mitzij,

    I have already contacted Toyota (headquarters) and am awaiting their response. I want to confirm with them that my warranty started the day I purchased it.

    I forgot to mention...when I spoke to the salesman (a really great guy) he said the reason the "Vehicle Inquiry Report" showed that it was already put into service was because someone bought the car, but never "bought" the car. When the originating dealer sold the car they filed an RDR (Retail Delivery Report) to Toyota (headquarters). But when the buyer failed to follow through with the transaction, the originating dealer DID NOT reverse the RDR, since they would've incurred some financial penalty in doing so. The originating dealer then transferred (sold) the vehicle to their "sister" dealership (owned by the same moneybaggers) and that's where I purchased it.

    So, NO Toyota dealer was ever able to inquire on this vehicle (as a "new" vehicle) being available, since it had alread been RDRed and not reversed.

    My salesman is now telling me that eventually when Toyota reverses this RDR, the originating dealer is going to still have to pay some penalty for the reversal.

    That's all I know. I hope I've explained this accurately.

    But the bottom line is, right now the only thing I have hanging is that I have to confirm with Toyota (headquarters) that the vehicle that I own has a 3/36k warranty starting the day I purchased it. I have everything in writing that confirms that, but I really don't want to wait 2 years and/or 20k miles to find out that this mixup is going to cause me grief. I'd rather deal with it now !

    Meanwhile, I'm driving around in a gorgeous vehicle and all I want to do is DRIVE ! :shades:

    There's actually something to be learned from this....It makes sense to me to run a CarFax (and/or AutoCheck) EVEN IF the vehicle you're going to purchase is "new".
  • euphoniumeuphonium Member Posts: 3,425
    The new odometer showed only 5 miles, but when I asked for an explanation- was advised they installed a sticker on the door post saying to add 23567! No charge!

    Look for the stickers. :mad:
  • moneymoomoneymoo Member Posts: 1
    I purchased a 1996 Toyota Camry from a private party. I found out quite by accident that the mileage had been rolled back by 145,000 miles. I called the guy and threatened him and got my money back. Now, I've recieved a title in the mail with his name on it and my address. The DMV and the Dealer Compliance person told me to just sign it and give it to him. No way I'm going to do that as the next person that gets ripped off will have my address from the title and torch my house.

    Who do I turn him into so that this car can't be sold again? Or that he is fined, strung up or both?
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    It depends upon the state you live in, but typically you would contact the DMV or the Secretary of State's office and inform them of the fraud.

    Best regards,
    Shipo
  • british_roverbritish_rover Member Posts: 8,502
    Does a 1996 Camry even have a six digit odometer? Ford still used five digit Odos back then I can't remember if Toyota did too.
  • qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 32,891
    I'd imagine it does. My '85 Nissan does, as does my '93 mazda.

    '11 GMC Sierra 1500; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP; '11 Mini Cooper S

  • british_roverbritish_rover Member Posts: 8,502
    Yeah it probably did too. I worked on plenty of Toyotas from that time and earlier and I think all of them had 6 digit odos. I couldn't remember for sure.

    I don't Ford expected their cars to last that long yet. :P
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