Mileage Fraud!! Odometer was rolled back!!! What to do?

zodac · October 2003

HELP!?! I purchased a 99 Tahoe which was fully loaded of of a DEALERS!! lot and in claiming warrenty work found out from a certified GM clock/ speedometer repair center that the mileage was rolled back!! What can i do? Dealer is fighting the issue and blaming previous owner!
Help me please!

zueslewis · October 2003

ASAP. Get very official with the dealer and do not agree to any recourse or waive any of your rights, as in a "waiver of claim" against the dealer.

montanafan · October 2003

Talk more about your proof and details. If I read your post correctly: You were having work done on the IP Cluster and the shop discovered indications of previous work? And they provided you with a written statement that the mileage had been turned back? How much did they say it was turned back? The dealer then says that their signned odometer statements from the previous owner and to you match the shown mileages? So you think the former owner and the dealer have conspired together to misrepresent the mileage? Please more details for all of us.

fenwayfrank · October 2003

For those of us looking to buy used veh's.
How prevalent is this problem, rolling back Odo's. Is there a way to check this out prior to buying?
p.s. Good luck Zodac.

janz · October 2003

from what I've read. Digital odometers were supposed to make this more difficult, but can be done in 20 mins. with a laptop and software you can buy on the internet.

If they are available, regular service records from the date of purchase would help. But you're only likely to get these from a private sale.

Carfax reports (and the like) can be helpful too, but I also read an article that those doing rollbacks go to the same reports and roll back to the last reported mileage.

IMHO, used cars = "Buyer Beware". Perhaps one positive point for buying new.

hudrahead · October 2003

"Clocking" or rolling back odos as it's known in the trade is VERY common here in Florida. it has been estimated that at least 20% going thru the auctions have been tampered. Very tough to prove especially on didgital odos as no mechanical work is required and so little evidence of tampering. A paper trail on the vehicle, service records etc. is about the only way you could prove the fact, especally in a law suit. This is a Federal offense. My son is a federal officer with the U S Dept.of Justice at a federal lock-up / correctional facility here in Florida and they have several clockers doing hard time. NO parole in the fed system. How's 10 years for doing the nasty deed, eh ?

HUD

:)

rroyce10 · October 2003

...... Where dooooo you get this info ... ?

         Your son can work for Jeb Bush himself, and still NOT see 1%, let alone 20% .l.o.l.. I'm at every major auction in Florida and been doing it going on 20 years and whether the dealer is in Tallahassee, Ft Myers or Miami they haven't seen 20, let alone all these "clockers" as you call it, your information is only about 10yrs old ....

        Now I have seen a few pass through the auctions that have jumped by Kansas City via Baltimore, traveled back to Chicago, did a little side shuffle to Texas, then wandered it's way back down south, but as a rule, good dealers don't waste their time with vehicles that have done the "tour" ..

        Florida has one of the toughest regulations in the country, I won't mention any names, but a HUGE dealer up the Ocala way lost $3mill and spent 6 months being Bubba's babe for trying to click back some rental vehicles .. it aint worth it, all you have to do is follow the DMV's ...

                   Terry.

hudrahead · October 2003

Terry, Terry, relax !! The "source" was a business contact that was pretty high up @ Manheim (corporate level) so I tended to belive him. Why would he say that if not some truth to it ? I happen to live in Ocala and I would LOVE to know what "huge" dealer that was that got busted for odo rollback. I really don't know of any "huge" dealers right here in town. Could it have been over @ Daytona ? If it would have actually been Ocala I'm sure I would have heard about that. The only thing huge in Ocala is the silence on Silver Springs Blvd. after the sun goes down. LOL

By the way, the federal lock-up @ Coleman Fl. IS huge. The largest federal correctional facility in the US. Don't know how many Bubbas they have for each inmate.I'll have to ask my son what the Bubba to inmate ratio is. LOL !

regards HUD

:)

Kirstie_H · April 2005

Reactivated by request... I smell a story coming!!

Mr_Shiftright · June 2005

Fraud is really REALLY hard to prove. What most consumers think of as "fraud" usually boils down to "misrepresentation", which can still be illegal but doesn't carry anywhere near the weight or penalties of fraud.

Basically, from what I understand of the law (which might be incomplete), with fraud you have to prove INTENT on the part of the seller.....and without hard evidence, that's pretty tough.....now "misrepresentation" can be pinned on somebody (EVEN YOU!) even if you didn't have intent....so what I mean is just because you didn't KNOW the car you were selling had been rolled back, you are still responsible to some extent for how the deal came down.

So this "caveat emptor" is also widely misunderstood....people think that once they sell a used car in a private party deal, they are free and clear of any responsibility. Oh, yeah? That's just not so.

My advice is to not only be careful of what you buy, but of what you sell.

You may get away with "puffery" in your ad, like "best car I ever owned", but if you say it's got 40,000 miles and it has 80,000, whether you knew that or not, you're in for trouble.

CLOCKING -- I'm with Terry here, I don't think much of this goes on anymore. It DOES happen but a dealer would have to be totally nuts unless he is doing business out of a tent with quick-release pegs.

A GREATER RISK is "laundered" salvage titles IMO.

audia8q · June 2005

CLOCKING -- I'm with Terry here, I don't think much of this goes on anymore. It DOES happen but a dealer would have to be totally nuts unless he is doing business out of a tent with quick-release pegs

Not long ago I read an article in a leasing/fleet trade magazine that 8%-10% of all lease vehicles in the greater NY metro area have been clocke. In most areas the numbers are much less....They had some consulting firm do all kinds of research in this area. They also found that it wasnt dealers doing the clocking it was the consumers. They found that folks will do anything to avoid those pesky over mileage charges.

kyfdx · June 2005

Wow.... You have to figure they are paying someone to do that for them... I wouldn't have the slightest clue on where to start, if attempting to do that myself.. (not that I would).

10%.. unreal...

lhess · June 2005

my boyfriend's speedometer in his 2004 Duramax truck broke on Christmas Day. We take it in first opportunity (day or so after Christmas) and they had to order a new speedometer for it.

At the time it had roughly 21K miles on it (I'm not sure exactly, but for the sake of my story...). Anyway, had a trip to NC to see family scheduled, routine daily driving.... the part is on national backorder so it took well over a month to get it in to the dealership. We took the truck in as soon as the part came in (irritating as crap not knowing your speed for more than a month) and had it put on. It came set, calibrated, whatever you want to call it, from the factory and had the 21K miles on it (the amount at the time we took it to the dealer) even though we had put about 5K miles on it during that time period. Not really a big deal.

But, for those that got their part ordered, do a lot of daily driving, didn't rush in to get it fixed when the part arrived...it could really mean some difference in what is showing and what is actually on the engine. Additionally, the dealer said it was a widespread issue with GM vehicles (hence the national back order on the part) so there are a bunch of GM vehicles out there with inaccurate mileage readings.

I have looked at our service history and I don't think we have anything that would raise a red flag on a trade or a sale of the truck (good thing, we're about to dump it on someone, somewhere), but if you got an oil change in there (odometer still worked), you would have some suspicious looking service records.

1racefan · June 2005

Most of the time when you trade or sell a car, you have to sign a statement saying that to the best of your knowledge the displayed mileage is accurate. I would think that legally (not to mention ethically), you should at that point say something - explain the whole story. That's just me though. I always believe in being upfront about things like that and dealing with them head on instead of looking over my shoulder wondering if they are going to sneak up on me and bite me in my butt.

isellhondas · June 2005

That truck is a TMU vehicle. True Mileage Unknown.

Not a good thing but maybe you can explain it so a buyer is comfortable with this.

1racefan · June 2005

I think a lot of times people are pretty understanding of these types of situations if you put your story down on paper, have it notarized, and then supply copies of the repair bills from where the odometer work was done.

isellhondas · June 2005

It still casts a "cloud" on the car. A leary buyer will shy away. An excuse NOT to buy the car in question. But you are correct, others won't care IF they have a clear explanation of what happened.

1racefan · June 2005

But....getting back to the point - I think any way you slice it, you should disclose that this is the case when you trade / sell it. I'm not a lawyer, so I have no idea what the law says about this.

isellhondas · June 2005

I've never heard of a shop installing a speedometer with pre-set miles on it. They are usually at zero and a sticker is applied to the inside driver's door stating the reading of the old odometer. the two numbers get added together to determine actual miles.

But, who knows how many miles were driven between the time it broke and was replaced?

1racefan · June 2005

If that were to happen to my car, I would leave it sitting at the dealership and would rent a car for the month that I was waiting for the replacement odometer. I would also write the manufacturer a letter asking to be reimbursed for the rental expense. You either have to eat the rental expense, or continue to drive the vehicle and have the "cloud" hang over it.

kyfdx · June 2005

.. I'd just pass that car up.. No matter what the story...

There are too many cars out there to take the chance...

qbrozen · June 2005

CLOCKING -- I'm with Terry here, I don't think much of this goes on anymore. It DOES happen but a dealer would have to be totally nuts unless he is doing business out of a tent with quick-release pegs

maybe it doesn't happen much on the dealership side (although I'm SURE there are independents out there still doing this).... but I do know it happens quite often on the consumer side. I hear folks talking about this quite often (and usually asking me where they can go or how to do it because they know I know quite a bit about cars). Even as recently as a couple of weeks ago, a friend of my wife was telling me how he had the miles rolled back on his '00 Volvo before trading it in. I let him have a piece of my mind (the little i could afford), but that doesn't change the fact that the car is already out there and someone is going to get screwed on it.

kyfdx · June 2005

...that everything was sealed, and that it was easy to detect tampering?

You would think that this would be the first thing checked on a lease return...

1racefan · June 2005

Well, I guess it is like everything else. The criminals seem to be one step ahead of technology on a lot of things.

Mr_Shiftright · June 2005

Well what I meant was that the dealer has a lot more to lose than the consumer---I wouldn't presume that dealers are more or less honest than private parties----I'm sure dishonesty cuts across all occupations, income levels and whatever.

But any consumer clocking a lease car is definitely guilty of fraud and I trust will be punished accordingly. Shouldn't be too hard to catch them if somebody really tried. Dealers have service records and you have to service lease cars, so any clocking scheme would have to be pretty elaborate...and the more lies you tell, the easier it is to catch you.

rroyce10 · June 2005

.. **I think a lot of times people are pretty understanding of these types of situations**

...... find me three .......

Terry.

rroyce10 · June 2005

.. **Additionally, the dealer said it was a widespread issue with GM vehicles (hence the national back order on the part) so there are a bunch of GM vehicles out there with inaccurate mileage readings** ...

Hmm, I think that makes for a nice story, because nobody is aware of any Odo problems on Duramax's or any other GM products right now .....

Perhaps this was more of a: "it's Christmas and somebody got too close to the eggnog and forgot to order a part thing" ..l.o.l...

Terry.

qbrozen · June 2005

You do have to service them, but not at a dealer. I've never had or heard of the records being asked for upon lease return, but, if necessary, receipts from a private garage are perfectly acceptable and (since, in the case i stated above, the same garage was servicing the car as adjusted the odo) the receipts don't necessarily have to show the mileage.

Its a scary thought, to be sure.

lhess · June 2005

It will probably get traded locally and the odometer thing won't be an issue - we have no problem with relaying the story. My point is, how many GM vehicles are out there that will have more than the 5K miles we put on ours and won't be honest about it at sale or trade?

About the lease thing that was mentioned, we had no idea this speedometer would arrive with the 21K miles already set. Maybe the dealer did it to make us happy - we were very upset when we realized we had to take a 6 hour interstate trip (one way) over New Year's without a speedometer and we were advised to "just run with the traffic!" But they did us no favor.

Terry, we did check with another GM dealer in the area (no, we have no faith in our own) and the part was completely unavailable through the entire month of January this year. We intended to even check with a dealer once we got to NC, but we were there over New Year's and parts depts were closed.

When we scheduled to get the part put on, the service guy made the comment that they had others to replace?

Mr_Shiftright · June 2005

Just be sure to cover your butt and divulge everything you know to the buyer. Should you not do this and say the new buyer takes it into the dealer who replaced the speedo, and the buyer is told this, he's going to hit the roof and come back at you. So get it all out, up front, would be my advice. Sounds like this is your intent.

isellhondas · June 2005

And, trust us, it WILL be an issue!

lhess · June 2005

I've never hidden the fact that I am not a GM fan and it's 100% due to the dealer we have to "work" with. The truck goes in Monday to get a hose replacement (the one that wasn't leaking, according to them, until we pointed it out to them) and I'm gonna talk to them about making this odometer thing right as far as documentation from them.

I am curious to know if this is just how our dealer handled this or were all the odometers that were replaced put in at lower mileages? How can I find that out without making a big splash that I don't necessarily want to deal with?

jproc · June 2005

When our Windstars odometer went the dealer noted the mileage and when the replacement came in -it had the same mileage.My memory (this was 5ish years ago) is that it took about 2 weeks for the replacement to come in

bolivar · June 2005

Just in the last few months, in my great Okie state, 3 guys were put away, or got several years probation from running odometers back. On something like an estimate of 1,800 cars, for an estimated $800,000 increased value.

Oh, yes, the leader, the owner of 3 used car lots, the one that actually is going to do some time - he is the President of the Okie State Cardealers Association (or whatever the name of that organization happens to be).

isellhondas · June 2005

Didn't know this was even possible on modern cars.

cjbrown929 · December 2005

I would alert all readers that if the odometer on their vehicle was not functioning, disconnected etc for virtually any distance, the vehicle must now and forever be sold as "total miles unknown". It doesn't matter if you know approximately how many miles it has ESPECIALLY to a dealer: your vehicle has just lost up to 1/2 its value!

I know, I sold cars for ten years! In other words, when you sell your car and sign the title, you CAN enter the current miles on the odometer but you MUST note that the total miles are unknown. I had a California Highway patrol supervisor come in with a sweet 95 540 (?) as a trade. When we asked him to sign a statement that the miles were correct, he noted that the digital odometer had been replaced and a sticker listing the miles at the time of replacement was on the door jam. When we called a local BMW dealer to get a buy bid, the bid went down by about 50% because the miles were unknown. Yeah, I know, you gotta be KIDDING, but I'm not

Mr_Shiftright · December 2005

I could see mileage unknown being an issue with a fairly new car, but on an 11 year old BMW?

Obviously you wouldn't want to pay a PREMIUM for claimed but unprovable LOW miles, but I can't see a 50% deduct for an eleven year old car. After all, "normal" miles on an 11 year old car is almost 140,000.

As a car ages, it pretty much "bottoms out" on depreciation at 10-15 years anyway.

rroyce10 · December 2005

....... Actually it's called TMU --- True Miles Unkown ....

50% -- that's 50% of wholesale, not retail ...

Terry.

Mr_Shiftright · December 2005

Well part of that is because a dealer is under way more legal scrutiny and risk than a private party seller.

jsylvester · January 2006

I assume if you buy a certified pre-owned, this would not be a problem, since the manufacturer is warrantying the vehicle?

bolivar · January 2006

Certified, smertified.

In most states there is a 'Milage Statement'. If you get one that says xx,xxx miles, you have a document giving you some legal rights.

If it says 'milage unknown', or whatever local verbage is used, then you are on your own.

shipo · January 2006

In 1981 I traded my 1979 VW Scirocco with 72,000 miles on the clock (I was in computer sales and put lots of miles on my cars back then) in on a 1981 Audi 4000 4M. Two weeks later I came back to the dealership (Scala-O'Brian in Chicago... errr, I think that was the name) for the "1,000 mile checkup" and saw a new 4000 5M (with the five cylinder engine) and said to myself out loud "Gee, if I'd just waited two weeks..." My salesman overheard me and said, "You wouldn't have made it two weeks."

"Oh really? Why?"

"Well, we were doing a dealer trade with a dealer up in Wisconsin and the 5-Speed self destructed on the way up. We had to flat-bed it all of the way back down here and we're still waiting for a new transmission to come from Germany."

As I was waiting for the service to be completed on my Audi, I wandered out to the back lot and found my old Scirocco and happened to peek at the mileage. Yikes! They'd rolled the mileage back to 35,000 miles! Granted that car "looked" like it only had 30K or so on the clock, but a nearly 40,000 mile roll back? Geez.

The second incident occurred at the end of my lease on my former 1995 Passat GLX. Actually, the problem started nine months after I got it when the LCD portion of my instrument cluster gradually started going blank on cold mornings. My dealership replaced the instrument cluster with what was (apparently) a 1996 unit and accordingly wrote the mileage of the old unit (18K and change) on a sticker and placed it on the door jam.

Fast forward three years and my Passat, which was coming up to the end of its lease, had something over 70,000 miles on the clock (not counting the 18K from the original), and the blanking out problem started happening again. I took it to my local VW dealership (I'd moved so it wasn't the one where I bought the car) and asked them to replace the instrument cluster again. They refused to do the work as a warranty item in spite of my claims that the instrument cluster was faulty and a "pre-existing condition".

I got angry and consulted the internet only to find that this was a VERY common occurrence with the 1996 vintage of my car. I gave them one more chance to fix the instrument cluster under warranty and they refused claiming, "You cannot believe ANYTHING that you read on the internet." Yeah, right.

Instead of having them do the work (for an estimated $1,200), I contacted a local shop that specialized in VWs (mostly the air-cooled variety), and he was more than happy to do the work for $450, including buying a new cluster from VW. Funny thing, he told me that the cluster he'd taken out of my car was a 1996 unit. Gee, what a surprise. Also, as fortune would have it, during the period of wrangling with the dealership and then hiring the local shop to do the work, the instrument cluster went completely blank (even the analog portion quit as well). Admittedly I probably drove no more than 5,000 miles beyond the point where I could no longer read the display, but the truth was, I really had no dead on balls accurate idea of what the true mileage was.

When the inspector from VWoA/VWCC showed up at my house to look at the car it had 18 miles on the clock, and that is what he recorded. VWCC called me no less than four times trying to pin me down on the approximate number of miles, and each time I gave them the same answer, "I'm sorry, I just don't know." I looked at it this way; I gave VW the chance to replace the instrument cluster in time for them to have been able to accurately record the mileage. Had they stepped up to the plate, I'd have been on the hook for something over 30,000 miles in excess mileage charges, however, if they weren't going to do the right thing, neither was I.

Best Regards,
Shipo

wlbrown9 · February 2006

Hum, would it have been cheaper to pay the 30,000 excess mileage or just purchase it for the residual, the sell it yourself? Just curious.

shipo · February 2006

Regarding my 1995 Passat, I had three options at disposition:

1) Pay the excess mileage charges on 30,000 extra miles. Memory fails me with regards to the per mile cost, however, I'm thinking it was about $0.20 plus or minus a few pennies. Said another way, if the 30K figure was used, we're talking about $6,000 in excess mileage charges. Ouch! FWIW, I would have willingly paid said charges were it that VW had accepted their responsibility regarding my failed instrument cluster. One final thought, how does one calculate the number of "Excess miles" when the car is labeled TMU?
2) Buy the car for the residual and keep it. Once again, memory fails regarding what the residual was, however, I'm thinking it was somewhere around $9,000. That was an option, and one that I seriously considered (other than rear wheel bearings, the car was mechanically solid) prior to VW refusing to repair my flawed by design instrument cluster.
3) Buy the car for the residual and resell it. Any idea what a TMU 1995 5-Speed Passat GLX with nearly 100,000 real miles on the clock would have fetched in early 1999? Me neither. My bet is that it couldn't have been much more than two to three thousand, which when subtracted from the residual purchase price brings me back to that $6,000 number.

In the end, VW made it easy (and cheap) for me by not stepping up to the plate when I gave them the chance (twice).

Best Regards,
Shipo

howboys37 · May 2006

Not sure if anyone has ever come across this but I just leased a new Accord LX SE and have noticed that the odometer is ticking away the miles quite quick. So much so that I actually measured the distance for a mile only to find out I am actually only going nine-tenths of a mile. That adds up real quick on a 15000 mile lease. Anyone with any feedback or knowledge of such a scam, or is the calibration by chance off? What to do?

qbrozen · May 2006

Interesting you should say that. I just leased one on Monday myself, and I was thinking this morning "hmmm... these miles seem to be coming up pretty quick." now I'll have to measure on the way home tonight.

sn84 · December 2006

been reading all the other posts and gotta say those experiences suck. Sorry u had to go through them. In my case, I have no one to blame but myself. I bought an '87 toyota supra a week ago, pretty hard car to find, and blinded by the fact that I wanted the damn thing so bad, I failed to do my homework and go through all the steps of buying a vehicle. I took quick looks at the engine, body and interior, but IGNORANTLY didn't test drive it myself. I just knew that the guy I bought it from drove it daily and also drove it to my house to finish our deal. At the time of sale the odo read 157,041. I garaged it for a coule days in order to get all my paper work straight and when I did take it out, I realized that the speedomoter and odometer didn't work, so I honestly don't know the true mileage of the vehicle. I called the guy with a "WTF, how long has this been broken", but of course there's no recollection of anything being wrong with the car as well as the fact that it's too late for me to do anything about it anyway. And all because I overlooked something so easy and simple. Needless to say, I have no intentions of ever trying to sell this car despite if I wanted to. I planned to swap the motor sometime down the road anyway, but not knowing what's on the current one or even knowing what speed I'm going is a huge insecurity. Not even trying to be funny, but I guess I better start making some serious money. God, I feel like an ***hole.

cccompson · December 2006

Your's is a good example of the old adage that good judgment is the result of experience which is the result of bad judgment.

At least in your situation the mileage issue is not likely all that critical. The car has a ton of miles on it now and, presumably, you didn't pay much for it - you can't really get hurt.

lemko · December 2006

...of a car's life the number of hours it has ran rather than how far it's gone? We measure mean time between failure on aircraft by flying hours versus how far the plane has flown.

shipo · December 2006

Even the Hobbs meter apporach isn't a fool proof method of determining vehicle condition. Think of a Cessna 172 that has been used in a flight school and has been slam-dunked onto the runway a couple of times per hour compared to a 172 of the same vintage that has seen thousands of low speed "Pipeline" duty hours. The latter probably sees a single take-off and landing every five to eight hours (by an experienced pilot no less) resulting in FAR less wear and tear on the airframe and engine. Personally I'll take a "Pipeline" plane with 7,000 hours over a 2,000 hour flight school plane.

Best Regards,
Shipo

jlawrence01 · December 2006

Agree.

I have some vehicles in my fleet that I would NEVER buy as my daily driver because I know how the driver drives the vehicle.

Also, the maintenance the vehicle receives must be factored in.

Mileage Fraud!! Odometer was rolled back!!! What to do?

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