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Mileage Fraud!! Odometer was rolled back!!! What to do?

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Comments

  • jennaiynjennaiyn Member Posts: 3
    Actually my son just purchased a vehicle from a "mom & pop" lot nearby and we have learned and are learning quite a bit about the law here now. Upon purchase we also never noticed that the odometer was not working, until I borrowed the vehicle a little over a week later. at once I spoke with our local police chief as I was quite certain driving a vehicle with a broken odometer is against the law and he confirmed this. I then took it to Goodyear who noted the odometer wasnt working and made an estimate of how long it has not been working from the dirt and scratches on ??? (not sure what here) they also checked the engine and let me know it had been disconnected long ago. I then contacted the dealer and told him we would be returning the vehicle and that I did want a full refund for amount paid. After returning the vehicle the dealer decided to try to bully me (because I am female perhaps?) decided he was not refunding any money and told me he had looked up online and that with the vehicle being over 10 years old, he could roll the odometer back to "mile number one" and it was legal. I immediately contacted the attorney general and the dmv odometer and dealer fraud departments and filed complaints with both. The man/dealer just recently decided to try yet another stupid move and sent me an invoice of collection for the full amount left that is owed on the vehicle and demand for payment within 10 days. I explained to the man that I could sue him for 3 times the amount of damages, yet only wanted what we had paid refunded as he had lied about the odometer (and his point that he turns all the odometers back for any car over 10 years old on his lot was not very reassuring in the least)Now the lawyer I obtained has added in the "demand" amount to the triple amount (triple damages perhaps?) and the dealer has opened a can of worms he did not want to as I am very stubborn when it comes to right and wrong and I offered him a fair deal beore he decided he could bully me etc... anyone selling or trading in a vehicle with an odometer that does not work is breaking the law and can be held liable for 3 times the amount in damages. It is illegal for anyone to drive a vehicle in Florida knowing the vehicle has a defective odometer. There is no time limitation on this. Take it back, get your money back as you have no idea what you just purchased. :(
  • bobstbobst Member Posts: 1,776
    Good for you, Jenn.

    Instead of letting the dealer treat you unfairly, you lowered the boom and got a lawyer and sued him. I bet now he takes notice!

    Please let us know how it turns out.
  • asafonovasafonov Member Posts: 401
    It is illegal for anyone to drive a vehicle in Florida knowing the vehicle has a defective odometer.

    Is it illegal to sell a vehicle with a broken odometer (without disclosing that it is a TMU, True Mileage Unknown), or is it also illegal to drive one? The latter definition implies that if one's odometer breaks, one is under the obligation to immediately fix it, whether he or she ever sells the vehicle or not.

    Just curious.
  • tidestertidester Member Posts: 10,059
    Here's a nice summary of the Federal Odometer Act.

    tidester, host
  • jennaiynjennaiyn Member Posts: 3
    I was actually paraphrasing Florida law as explained to me, but here is the actual wording of that (in case you are from Florida) plus all states have their own laws pertaining to odometers as well. :)

    -------------------------------------------
    If you suspect that the odometer has been rolled back on a vehicle offered for sale, contact your local law enforcement agency or the DMV. If you suspect odometer fraud has occurred with a vehicle you have already purchased, the DMV can assist you in obtaining a record of all previous Florida owners and odometer statements from the dealers involved. If your suspicions are confirmed, you will need to retain an attorney in order to file suit against the violator. Due to the importance of the odometer reading in determining the value and condition of a vehicle, state and federal laws have been enacted making it illegal to tamper with a vehicle's odometer. Under the law it is illegal to:

    Disconnect an odometer.
    Turn back an odometer.
    Drive with a disconnected or non-functional odometer.
    -------------------------------------------

    2006 Florida Statutes:

    319.35 Unlawful acts in connection with motor vehicle odometer readings; penalties.--

    (1)(a) It is unlawful for any person knowingly to tamper with, adjust, alter, set back, disconnect, or fail to connect an odometer of a motor vehicle, or to cause any of the foregoing to occur to an odometer of a motor vehicle, so as to reflect a lower mileage than the motor vehicle has actually been driven, or to supply any written odometer statement knowing such statement to be false or based on mileage figures reflected by an odometer that has been tampered with or altered, except as hereinafter provided. It is unlawful for any person to knowingly bring into this state a motor vehicle which has an odometer that has been illegally altered.

    (b) It is unlawful for any person to knowingly provide false information on the odometer readings required pursuant to ss. 319.23(3) and 320.02(2)(b).

    (c) It is unlawful for any person to knowingly possess, sell, or offer for sale, conceal, or dispose of in this state a motor vehicle with an odometer that has been tampered with so as to reflect a lower mileage than the motor vehicle has actually been driven, except as provided in paragraph (2)(a) and subsection (3).

    (2)(a) This section does not prevent the service, repair, or replacement of an odometer if the mileage indicated thereon remains the same as before the service, repair, or replacement. If the odometer is incapable of registering the same mileage as before such service, repair, or replacement, the odometer must be adjusted to read zero and a notice in writing must be attached to the door frame of the vehicle by the owner or his or her agent specifying the mileage prior to repair or replacement of the odometer and the date on which it was repaired or replaced.

    (b) A person may not fail to adjust an odometer or affix a notice regarding such adjustment as required by paragraph (a).

    (c) A person may not, with intent to defraud, remove or alter any notice affixed to a motor vehicle under paragraph (a).

    (3) Any motor vehicle with an odometer that has been tampered with so as to reflect a lower mileage than the motor vehicle has actually been driven may not be knowingly operated on the streets and highways of the state in such condition unless the certificate of title and registration certificate of the vehicle have been conspicuously stamped so as to indicate the displayed mileage is inaccurate and written notice has been placed on the vehicle as described in paragraph (2)(a).

    (4) If any person, with intent to defraud, possesses, sells, or offers to sell any motor vehicle with an odometer that has been illegally adjusted, altered, set back, or tampered with so as to reflect a lower mileage than the vehicle has actually been driven, such motor vehicle is contraband and is subject to seizure and forfeiture by a law enforcement agency or the department pursuant to ss. 932.701-932.704.

    (5) Any person who intentionally violates the provisions of this section is guilty of a felony of the third degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084.

    -------------------------------------------

    Hope that helps :)
  • dtownfbdtownfb Member Posts: 2,918
    You go Girl!!!!
  • cccompsoncccompson Member Posts: 2,382
    Based on the cite, it appears that contrary to the intro, merely driving with a non-functional odometer is not, in and of itself, an offense.
  • tidestertidester Member Posts: 10,059
    merely driving with a non-functional odometer is not, in and of itself, an offense

    Paragraph (c) states: "merely driving with a non-functional odometer is not, in and of itself, an offense."

    Is it possible to drive a vehicle with a nonfunctional odometer and not know it?

    tidester, host
  • bobstbobst Member Posts: 1,776
    When I was at the Univ. of Florida, my friend and I were outside working on our cars when a young lady drove by in her Firebird and asked us if we could disconnect her odometer. She wanted to visit her boyfriend in another town and didn't want her father to see all of the additional miles on the car.

    I crawled under the car and found where the speedometer cable went into the transmission and unscrewed it. She was very happy.

    Now I realize I was breaking the law. How about that!
  • tidestertidester Member Posts: 10,059
    How about that!

    I'd bet she's divorced by now. ;)

    tidester, host
  • bobstbobst Member Posts: 1,776
    That's a good image - a divorced lady zipping around in a Firebird.

    Kind of like Suzanne Somers in "American Graffiti".
  • cccompsoncccompson Member Posts: 2,382
    No, my point, tidester, was that the intro language was not wholly compatable with the cite. The quoted Florida language always couples "tampering" with non-functioning in describing an offense. So, my interpretation would be that if one's odometer merely stops working (e.g., due to a broken speedo cable), there's no violation.
  • tidestertidester Member Posts: 10,059
    You may be right, ccc. I guess that's why we have judges!

    tidester, host
  • maryangela69maryangela69 Member Posts: 2
    I just bought a used 2004 Toyota Camry. It had almost 22,000 miles on it. We drove it home and started to realize the miles were not accurate on it. I drove to work which takes me 25 miles and it recorded 14. I went back to the dealership and demanded my money back. He refused and offered to fix the "speed sensor". I am not doubting that that is the problem but is my car now "tmu"? I am really confused and not sure what to do. Should i have it fixed or should i keep pursuing my money back. It has been two weeks i bought it on 12/13/06 and on 12/24/06, it stopped completely. Please help me!!!!
  • cccompsoncccompson Member Posts: 2,382
    Do both.
  • jennaiynjennaiyn Member Posts: 3
    I would check the laws in your state first, as I am thinking that all states are similar to the effect that you can be awarded more than your money back. I don't like jerks like these who prey on people just because we do not know our rights and refuse to fix something that federal law regulates... bleh... hit them where they won't do it again (hopefully) I know the state of Florida can award up to 3 times the amount of damages, meaning if a 2004 automobile is worth NADA or blackbook of $10,000 with the reported miles of 25,000 and you think it has mileage of 50,000 bringing the value of the automobile down to $7,000
    - as they have to argue the mileage descrepency amounts, not you, since THEY sold you a vehicle with a defective odometer.(note I am making all of these numbers up in my head as I type) then your damages would be $3000 plus whatever you paid payments made to the dealership, down payment and gas mileage as you went back and forth asking them to fix it... so take that number and multiply it by 3 and add in any court and legal costs.... sometimes you have to make a stand, yes it can be time consuming, but if we all keep filing suits against these types of automobile dealers, just maybe after they pay enough, they will change the way they do business. I personally feel if we do nothing... then they will simply continue on with the next person that comes on their lot and then we'll see that other person posting here as well. :/
  • audia8qaudia8q Member Posts: 3,138
    I am not doubting that that is the problem but is my car now "tmu"?

    Yes. Nobody really knows the exact mileage of the car now.
    Your paperwork from the dealerhsip should include a form called a "mileage statement".....check to see what is on that form. If things get into a legal situation that form will be very important...also, run a Carfax on the car and see what the mileage history shows. This could be helpful also.

    Just curious, was this purchase from a new car dealership?
  • maryangela69maryangela69 Member Posts: 2
    I did purchase the car from a toyota dealer. I live in CT and the dealer is in mass. The carfax reported no discrepencies. The milage statement says there is no discrepencies. The dealer is trying to say that it broke after I bought the car. Which I know it didn't. I mean how coincidental is it that it breaks the night i take it home. I told him the check engine light came on on the 24th so he is trying to say that is when it broke. I called toyota and they said they could arbitrate it?? not sure if that will solve anything. Is that a good idea? Should I go to dmv. How do I prove that it was like that when I bought it. Like I said it has only been two weeks.
  • sgk06sgk06 Member Posts: 3
    Maryangela -

    I certainly would contact an attorney or the attorney general. The burden falls back onto the seller to disclose any discrepencies pertaining to mileage, odometer, etc. If this odometer stopped working correctly the night you drove it home, there was obviously a problem. It is illegal to drive a car with a faulty odometer per the federal Odometer Act. The act also gives you the right to get your money back, hold the dealership responsible for the cost of fixing the problem, and report the vehicle with the DMV of having incorrect actual mileage so that it shows up on the carfax for the next owner.

    I personally would demand my money back and get a different car. The dealership may say that they didn't know, that you purchased the car "as is," or that it is no longer their problem, but the Act states you have the right to purchase a vehicle with no misrepresentations. It falls upon the seller to either ensure the odometer was in good working condition AND accurate, or to fully disclose any discrepencies, inaccuracies, etc. It is then upon their shoulders to go after whomever they purchased the vehicle from to regain monetary damages. Just as if you were to sell the vehicle, it would then be on your shoulders to render the situation.
  • sgk06sgk06 Member Posts: 3
    Alas... my husband and I were taken. We've had pretty decent luck with our vehicle purchases and we are pretty good at looking a vehicle over. We both take an active part in the maintenance of our vehicles, including minor repairs, recognizing when a repair is needed, and fully knowning how our vehicles run. We keep a moutain of repair manuals on hand, a decent tool kit in the trunk, and the ability to get our hands dirty at the most inconvenient hours. *sigh*

    We were looking for a very specific vehicle - a mid 90's Toyota Previa with under 140K miles, preferrably under $3000. Unfortunately, this type of car is very hard to come by, and even harder to find with that low of miles. Most are exceeding 200K while being priced over $3000. We were resorting in a nationwide search due to the inability to find what we wanted. You couldn't imagine our surprise when we actually found a 95 Previa with only 105K only 2 hrs from our home! And to top that, it was priced at $2500 at a dealer.

    We looked over this baby with a fine tooth comb. There were some wear and tear spots. There were a couple things not working, but nothing that affected the performance what so ever. The belts were at about half life. It needed 2 new tires. It purred like a kitten, though, running smoothly and quietly! We purchased the vehicle only 24 hours ago for $2100. This purchase was made without the ability to obtain a carfax, as we were passing through this town from an out of state trip, and we did not know any reputable mechanics in the area. We just wanted to complete our transaction without taking a chance that the vehicle would be sold from underneth us, and then get back home.

    That afternoon, we arrived back home with our new purchase and decide to take her in for an oil change. While at the station, my husband found some maintenance records that we hadn't seen when first looking over the vehicle. There was a receipt from 2002 that indicated over 117,000 miles! Well, another issue was the oil. We had seen the oil was unusually thick, but knew this could happen when a vehicle sits awhile in the cold. We're in Michigan. It is cold right now. As soon as the oil change was complete, we were on our way to get tires.... and 4 miles down the road the engine started knocking so hard I thought it was going to blown itself right into the cab! We stopped, call the oil station, the manager came out; he crawled underneth and verified the plug, pan, and filter were all in place and tight. Also verified we still had oil pressure. There is nothing they did or we did within that 4 miles that could have caused the engine to knock.

    We slowly made our way home. We pulled a carfax. The last reported mileage was out of Ohio's DMV at 185,146. The odometer clearly stated 105,195 upon purchasing. The dealer did not give us a mileage statement form to sign. Upon recalling the details, the sales person did not write down the mileage from the vehicle on any paperwork. We have the dealership in several violations of state and federal requirements.

    This morning, 12hrs from the time of purchase, we promptly called the dealership demanding a full refund for the car and to make arrangements for them to pick it up. We have spoken with the US DOT odometer fraud unit, the MI Sec of State, have all complaint forms in hand, have enough proof to pursue civil action, and have spoken with our attorney. Our attorney advised for us to give them a 24 hour time span to rectify the situation via written notice. I have faxed them such a notice, which outlines our expectations and prospective actions. According to our attorney, MI judges also has the tendency to revoke a dealer license once fraud has become evident in a sale.

    The dealer, however, is refusing to refund our monies as of this afternoon. We have gotten every excuse from they didn't know to it was purchased "as is" and we are stuck with it. The US DOT agent made it very clear that they can use any excuse they want, but liability and burden is on their shoulders. We will win our case .. but I just want my money back. This is frustrating.

    Anyone know how long it takes to get your money back?? :confuse:
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Someone needs to remind the dealer that he can do JAIL time for this type of thing. :surprise:

    Here's the sentence structure in the State of Illinois at any rate:

    ODOMETER FRAUD
    720 ILCS 5/17-11

    1ST Offense
    Up to $2500 Fine &/or Up to 1 Year in Jail

    2ND Offense
    Felony Up to $25,000 Fine &/or 1 to 3 Years in Pen.
  • cccompsoncccompson Member Posts: 2,382
    And all of your woes could have been avoided if only you'd had the dealer pull a carfax on it. If a dealer refused to do so, simply walk.
  • sgk06sgk06 Member Posts: 3
    Oh, I completely agree. I definitely won't make any purchase without doing a report... we have always had good purchases, so I was overly confident in my purchasing inspections. We later pulled reports on our existing cars, and all came back clean and correct - this is just the one bad apple that we were taken on. It was a small mom n pop type shop, and the sales lady said they didn't even have a computer when I asked if she had internet access.

    I am still finding out what penalties they can face in MI. I have found a lot of interesting things, though, including state law violations on the sales process.
  • grandtotalgrandtotal Member Posts: 1,207
    Anyone know how long it takes to get your money back??

    If the dealership has any sense it will take as long as it takes them to drive to your house with a cheque.
  • guzzleguzzle Member Posts: 2
    At 16000 miles there was electrical problems on my 2002 Mazda Tribute, When I picked the car the odometer was reset to 0 and a sticker affixed to the door stating the mileage at time of rollback. Now my resale value is halved since no wholesaler or dealer will touch the car now that the odometer is not accurate. What are my options with the repair shop and / or Mazda for damages since the car was under warranty at time of repair. I am quoted $4000 less for fair trade in value at any dealer!!
  • bobstbobst Member Posts: 1,776
    "I am quoted $4000 less for fair trade in value at any dealer!!"

    $4000 less than what? Some price listed in a book? You can't believe everything in those books.

    Why do you want to trade it in already? It's only 5 years old and just approaching middle age. I say drive it for 5 more years and be happy.
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    I'd take the dealer to small claims court. Or find a gauge cluster that has the proper milage on it swap it in and take the sticker off.

    -mike
  • joel0622joel0622 Member Posts: 3,299
    At 16000 miles there was electrical problems on my 2002 Mazda Tribute, When I picked the car the odometer was reset to 0 and a sticker affixed to the door stating the mileage at time of rollback.

    They should have ordered an odometer head with the correct miles on it. Not given you back the same odometer reset to 0. Did they tell you this is what they are doing? And did you agree to the repair. If you agreed then I don't think there is much you can do.

    A small claims court will have no interest, esp if the dealer can produce your service file where the problem was diagnosed, you were informed of the problem and what they needed to do to fix it, you authorized the repair, then picked up the car when it was done and signed the repair order stating it was fixed to your satisfaction.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    If you have your service records you have proof of actual mileage, so you don't have a problem.

    You can't sue unless you've lost something, but if you show your service records to the buyer in a fair market sale (not some dealer trade-in quote, which is not fair market value), I suspect the new buyer will not demand a discount, because he/she knows the actual mileage.

    it's only when nobody can prove the mileage on an odometer swap that you're going to lose $$$, because, obviously, nobody knows the actual mileage.

    The dealers low-ball you because they don't want the hassle of having to prove the mileage. For you, if you sell, this is no problem (I presume).
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    I'm going to disagree with Shifty on this.

    If I'm buying a car and there are any hints of a issues with the odo, I immediately walk away and suggest anyone buying do the same.

    Also if you can't trade in the vehicle, then you basically have "lost" an avenue to get rid of the car when you want to upgrade.

    I would definitely hold the dealer responsible for it and try to get whatever I can out of them. Personally? I'd turn around and replace the cluster with one of the proper milage.

    The way that carfax works is that they compare the milage at every registration, if the milage goes backward, then it's flagged, if your state states the milage on your inspections it'll be flagged by both the state and carfax.

    Bad situation all around. :(

    -mike
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    well sure, try to get it corrected, by all means.

    But you'd have a hard time proving a financial loss I think. The avenue of "dumping" your car at a loss doesn't strike me as one worth defending anyway.

    But it does suck, nonetheless. The dealer and owner should have both been on their toes a bit more here.
  • guzzleguzzle Member Posts: 2
    Thanks All for thoughts and suggestions, Dealer never informed me that the resulting work would result in odometer rollback/reset. the actual issue was an electrical and light issue. My fault for not raising a bigger stink at the time but I had already signed off on the fixing of the original electrical issue before driving away and realizing that it was my actual odometer and not my trip counter that was 0. After heading back to the dealer that is when they informed that the fix resulted in a reset and that there is a stick on the door with the mileage at the time of work. I should refused to sign off on the service. At the time I had figured I was going to drive the truck into the ground but now drive an extra 25k a year so I need a commuter car. The even better news is that the dealer is no longer affiliated with Mazda.
    Wish I hit this forum a long time ago. I'll check back in with updates.
  • geo9geo9 Member Posts: 735
    Ya know our old friend R Royce aka Terry would label
    that car TMU (true mileage unknown) and hit the trade
    or auction value real low................
    That was his comments on Canadian cars resold in the US with a speedo/odo changeout from KM to mph. Even with
    proper paperwork and disclosure with stickers from the
    importers on the door jamb..............

    That guy is in a tough spot come trade in time.......
    Thru no fault of his own ! Dealers will RUN from that
    vehicle.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    But it's not a TMU is it? I mean, the true mileage is known and provable as long as it is in the hands of the original owner. Heck, there he is, just ask him. He'll even sign a mileage statement to that effect. Even CARFAX will still record date of original mileage and then the date of the "new" mileage. So mileage will have a paper trail as well.

    Once the original owner is out of the picture, yeah, then it might become a problem for the lazy buyer not willing to check things out, or the lazy dealer not willing to show documentation, but by then it's not the original owner's problem.

    Sure you might scare away the overly suspicious paranoid buyer but you don't want to deal with people like that anyway. Seems to me any reasonable person will accept the documentation on the car's true mileage and the sticker's records.
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    TMU is any vehicle that has had the ODO tampered with. Documentation is worthless in this case. Best bet would be to find a cluster at a junk yard with the proper milage and swap it in. Should be fairly simple.

    -mike
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Humf...I'm not getting this obviously. How can a car be TMU when you know the true mileage and it's on record?

    I need to check this out more.....
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    NYS at least, considers anything not officially on the dash board as TMU, too easy to falsify documents I suppose. Not that swapping out the gauge cluster isn't easy also, but I guess they figure less likely.

    -mike
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    So NYS doesn't believe its own mileage declaration form?

    IN California, the mileage declaration form is right on the Certificate of Title. You can't get more TM than that.

    I still think this guy is okay if he sells the car. I wouldn't worry about it. Yes, you have 30 seconds of explaining to do, but with the sticker, your service records and CARFAX, you've got a very good story.
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    Nah no way, no dealer I know of would take it in on a trade, and I wouldn't suggest anyone I know buy such a car, no matter how good the story and supporting documentation is.

    I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this one.

    -mike
  • kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 235,188
    Odometer issues? I just walk away..

    Even if it is the most ironclad explanation with the best documentation... Because.. when I get ready to sell it, all that is now third-hand information, and the next person will be even less likely to believe it..

    With a hundred similar used cars out there, why take a chance on anything like that? IMO, the owner has a car with diminished value.

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  • joel0622joel0622 Member Posts: 3,299
    Humf...I'm not getting this obviously. How can a car be TMU when you know the true mileage and it's on record?

    Shifty, the reason being is that when an odometer statement is signed it reads "I______________________state that the odometer now reads" Meaning you are signing of on what the odometer says, not what the odometer says+the door sticker. And if the odometer is not the mileage then the box reading "I hearby certify that the odometer reading is NOT the actual mileage. WARNING-ODOMETER DISCREPANCY" must be checked. Which regardless of the documentation you have will scare future buyers
  • audia8qaudia8q Member Posts: 3,138
    Despite what the documentation says the car is now TMU...From a dealers standpoint a TMU car is like having a contagious rash...Its hard enough for us to sell a perfect car, forget one with an "odometer issue"...there arent many folks who will give the dealer the benefit of the doubt....unless there is a huge price savings over a car without any stories.
  • geo9geo9 Member Posts: 735
    I also see the TMU horror stories over at a few GM truck sites. Many guys like to change out their Chevy/GMC
    speedo/odo clusters for the flashy white faced Caddy
    clusters. They have the vehicles existing odo reading
    programmed to the new cluster at a speedo shop or some
    say the GM dealer uses the Tech 2 machine to do it.
    It can be done on the GMs but unsure about others.........

    But then again I post about TMU and they think I am crazy!

    Then 6 months down the road some of them are posting
    about a "crooked" dealer trying to rip them off by
    either lowballing their trade or not wanting it because
    of the odo change or other screwy mods they did !
  • joel0622joel0622 Member Posts: 3,299
    You also run into TMU problems when you change the tires on a vehichle. For instance if a car/truck is calibrated for 16" tires from the factory and you throw 20"'s on there you are not getting a true speedometer or odometer reading unless you have it re-calibrated.
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    Correct on the tires, but you can always swap the tires back and there is now TMU sticker or question, also 16" v. 20" doesn't matter, it's the overall circumference of the tire that effects the speedo. So a 20" with rubberbands could actually be smaller than 16" with normal sidewall.

    -mike
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Okay, let's back up here.

    How can a car be branded TMU when there's a sticker on it that says the true mileage?

    If you're going to tell me that the dealer who put the sticker on now tells the owner that the sticker might be falsified, I'm going to fall down laughing and call a lawyer.
  • geo9geo9 Member Posts: 735
    GUYS....I hear ya about changing the tire size as
    well as lift kit mods on vehicles altering the speedo/odo readings and TMU.

    Most of the guys on the GM truck forums report that the
    speedo AND odos read lower with larger diameter tire/rim
    combos.
    But also there are other problems like SES and ABS
    lights aglowing and related issues................

    Then the problems down the road with state inspections
    (like NY that fails your vehicle if ANY SES-ABS light
    is on) and emissions test at inspection time.

    Not to mention many dealers are getting gunshy of
    reprogramming new tire sizes or doing a CPS (crank
    position sensor) relearn (when the PCM is changed or
    "burned" for a performance tune) for a fee.........
    Prob. because of liability !!!!!!!!!!

    But yet again if the dealer sells/installs that mod
    then its usually a NO problem deal.........

    This applies to my GM experience with mods and dealers
    use of the Tech 2 machine.....YMMV !!!!!!!!!!!!!! :P
  • audia8qaudia8q Member Posts: 3,138
    How can a car be branded TMU when there's a sticker on it that says the true mileage?

    Hold up there deputy dog....
    The cars odometer never stops working while its in the shop. It breaks and the customer proceeds to drive around until they discover the odometer isnt working, then they drive to the dealership to get it fixed. meanwhile nobody knows how many miles it wasnt working or how many miles it was driven...Thus TMU. I bet the majority of folks would have no idea their odometer stopped working...its just not something that many folks monitor like the gas gauge.

    how trusting are you? This is car sales and not girl scout cookie sales. :P If a salesperson told you don't worry, there is a sticker on the door with the "real" mileage... would you believe him?? Remember, there isnt anything official to prove anything other than a hand written sticker and what the guy tells you....also would you pay the same as a car that doesn't have any odometer issues?
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    Why would you get an ABS light with different size tires? I've ran lots of lifted/locked trucks with ABS (Toyota, Isuzu, Nissan, Jeep) none of them ever have a problem with ABS lights.

    -mike
  • geo9geo9 Member Posts: 735
    PAISAN.............It seems to be a issue with GM full
    size trucks (not sure about the others).
    Some deal with the ABS sensor that imbedded in the front
    wheel hubs and the revolutions of the wheel don't jive
    with the parameters in the PCM or ABS computers ??????
    Then it throws a ABS malfunction light and PCM code.
    But I am posting of NEW 04-07 GM full size trucks.

    GMs ABS system (and other brands that use it)can be a
    PIA and the brain is a issue
    that costs $1000 bucks when it fails (often!)
    But there are a few rebuilders out there that will take
    care of your failed unit for less than $200 bucks!
    (search fleabay for them)

    Check out gm-trucks.com fullsizechevy.com
    letstalksnow.com/forums

    What kills me is most of these guys don't care anyhoo!
    ABS unit failed (and when it does it makes all kinds of
    crazy noises) Pull the ABS fuse ignore the light!
    Larger tire size throws a SRS light......Ignore it and
    put a piece of black tape over it !
    Gee ya mean the speedo/odo reads lower?
    Cool...........ignore it!
    Among other things.................LOL!!!!!!!! :P
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