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Comments
> use will always result in a NET LOSS versus just using
> only the ICE.
THERE IS A LOSS, but it is NOT net. There really is a savings.
Electric motors are more efficient than combustion engines. (That is not a topic for debate, it is a very well proven fact.) The point of the hybrid design is to be able to exploit that by MINIMIZING the loss circumstances. By reducing them as much as possible, you get greater efficiency than with a combustion engine alone.
> Someone stated earlier that the HSD system would use
> regenerative braking to recharge the batteries during
> simple coasting
Your misconception comes from the words "braking" and "regeneration". In reality, neither is accurate.
HSD (and THS) use a "GENERATION" system. Whenever there is excess thrust, which occurs mostly when the engine is propeling the vehicle not when braking, electricity is created. Remember, the CVT intentionally creates this situation. Touching the brake is not required. The excess thrust is automatically detected.
JOHN
> use will always result in a NET LOSS versus just using
> only the ICE.
On the prius, stop-&-go city driving the engine runs and idle while charging the batteries and also recycle energy from regenerative braking. Engine shuts off when battery is fully charged. while engine is running, it also provide additional thrust to the wheels.
On conventional car, the engine runs and idle even when not needed.
Automakers have been working FOREVER to reduce the drag coefficient and now you're trying to tell me they're readily adding it back in by charging the batteries via regenerative braking during "coasting".
Sorry, can't buy that particular load of poles.
What's with the options packaging? Is is the "market demand" effect? I wanted everything on the list except for the NAV since it has very little use for me. Turns out that's not possible, at least currently. NAV jacks up the price by about $2-3K! That's rather steep for something that I don't really want/need. Any ideas if this situation is going to change, i.e. be able to get a la carte options?
Is there a button for forced the vehicle to be fully electric? I thought I've read some member was saying that there is such a feature? But I can't find it on my manual!
Thanks,
Antz
> through MY EYES
The hybrid system creates it, NOT the driver. Perhaps that is the basis of your misunderstanding.
How this design works can easily be cleared up by simply watching the Multi-Display while taking a test-drive.
JOHN
That particular feature is not available in the United States, due to regulation issues.
Stealth still works here, it's just not maximized. But the performance is definitely improved from the classic model. So there's hardly much of a loss.
Technically, the system could still be retrofit later on with that button. But currently, no one has figured out what it would take. Perhaps, once those dang regulations are dealt with, Toyota will offer an upgrade kit like they did for cruise-control.
JOHN
NET LOSS...
Ever notice that when charging or discharging batteries they tend to heat up? That's because ALL batteries have an internal resistance to electrical current flow. Try to charge a battery too fast and it will overheat and oftentimes explode.
Same thing with discharging too rapidly.
Look at it this way.
Say I can use the ICE to run the generator which in turn powers the electric motor and that is used to drive the wheels. We just decribed a diesel/elect railroad engine by the way.
Now put the Prius set of batteries in the system, I lose energy, via the battery resistance, both in the charge path and in the discharge path.
The net loss can be really serious as is indicated by the Prius' poor hwy MPG. On the highway the batteries become nothing more or less than a supercharger with all the losses of same.
Oh, and one of the referenced articles states the Atkinson cycle engines (Prius uses the Miller cycle modification of Atkinson) are hardly ever viable absent a supercharger. In the Prius the electric motor/battery combination serves as THAT supercharger.
Whether a particular operating mode, under specific conditions optimizes a particular parameter within a particular driving cycle is a question that only Toyota can answer, anecdotal evidence notwithstanding. Consequently Toyota's program is the best resource that you have to determine whether electric only operation is beneficial, so why would you want to maximize it?
What I said was that I'm the only one to see, and I'm the ONLY decision maker, as to whether or not I wish the car to be slowing down.
If the hybrid system suddenly, or even "seamlessly", decides to throw in a little regenerative effort I would most likely suspect that a head wind just came up and I need to apply more throttle to maintain my speed....
If I'm going downhill and lift my foot from the throttle to conserve fuel and the system starts applying the "brakes" my instincts will be to get back on the gas. Even if I don't get back on the gas immediately then I will still need to do that earlier than otherwise due to the increased "drag" of the regenerative effort.
Like a heavilly loaded trucker coasting, speeding, downhill to conserve fuel but then throwing a dragchute out.
On the other hand a light foot on the brake pedal (or in "cruise") to maintain a set speed downhill and the system using that as a signal to charge the batteries for "boost" on the uphill pull makes a lot of sense.
> by the Prius' poor hwy MPG
A 51 MPG highway rating is poor?
No other gasoline powered vehicle that size can compete with efficiency so high. Since the end result is *BETTER*, it is a *GAIN*. How can you claim a net loss?
JOHN
Watching the dash "gauges" it was my experience that no matter how lightly I feathered the increase in throttle position the electrics would come FULLY on line. I was willing to settle for a slow acceleration rate using just the ICE but the system wouldn't let me settle for that. The result was about 30 to 40 needless discharge/charge cycles in 150 miles.
Yes, 51 MPG is pretty damn good. But if one could avoid needlessly discharging (supercharging the "weak" engine) and then recharging the batteries in a continuous cycle for a 150 mile reasonably flat freeway drive the mileage would be even better.
Would you mind directing me more explicitly to same?
That has absolutely, positively nothing to do with a "net loss".
It is still a gain no matter how you analyze it. What did I miss?
JOHN
It works a similar way in the Civic hybrid. Lifting off the gas causes the regen feature to kick in.
To maximize opportunities to recharge the batteries, I guess the computers assume that when you're not on the gas, you don't need thrust, so that spinning drive shaft can be used to turn the generator (electric motor). I use it all the time to maximize charging.
Mike
For our next topic, how about discussion winter efficiency? Lots and lots of people aren't aware of those cold weather factors that cause MPG to drop.
JOHN
You "restated" my position on NET LOSS so explicity in post 1096 that I see no way it could have been misunderstood to be more "global" than I intended.
while coasting.
You can really notice the difference between the
regenerative braking while coasting, vs. no
regenerative braking, by throwing the Prius into
Neutral while coasting. Instead of slowly slowing down,
you just sort of glide along. Unfortunately, by
going into Neutral, the battery no longer gets
charged...
that isn't used for motive force is wasted. (Think
about coasting or going downhill - the engine isn't
doing much work to keep you going...)
In a Prius, the eCVT keeps the ICE at the most
efficient (cleanest) RPM. In some cases, there is
more power coming from the engine than what is
needed to move the car (uphills, usually), and this
excess power is routed to charging the battery, or
the electric motor.
Strange, but usually a Prius gets better MPG going
through hills than if it took the flatland route!
Those that are interested in assistance with Prius know where to find me. And I'd much rather help them than just put out all the fires you keep setting.
Goodbye.
JOHN
Why would the engine produce more power, using MORE fuel, than is required to move the vehicle, especially uphill? I would think, assuming the batteries have some reserve left, this would be a very important time to use the batteries to boost the net output power and conserve fuel.
As a matter of fact that's the exact way my 03 seems to work. I'll have to pay more attention now, but I don't think I've EVER seen the batteries being charged in this circumstance. Absent starting out virtually fully discharged, maybe.
How or why is it an advantage to use regenerative braking during "coasting" (no throttle or brake application) to recharge the batteries?
Without this "braking" (however slight) the car would coast farther and thereby use less fuel overall.
> farther and thereby use less fuel overall.
The primary purpose of HSD is to REDUCE SMOG-FORMING EMISSIONS.
Since using less fuel is secondary, opportunities to do save are sometimes not taken for the sake of being CLEANER OVERALL.
JOHN
I am eager to see how it compares to other vehicles when there are independent test reports available.
1. Fuel ecomony ratings
2. Overall Reliability
3. Handling in rain and snow
Thanks.
Leslie
dealer yesterday.
Because of prep work (3M poly-bra, for example),
we probably won't get it until today or tomorrow.
That, and we're both going to the Toyota Engines of Change
tour in Newton, MA today. (Invitation-only event.)
It's got modest power, relatively low handling limits, and the CVT makes it a droner. Your commands to the car are going through a computer interface, and the engine starts/stops depending on load - this dulls the reflexes. Driven smoothly and gently, all this happens seamlessly in the background, but driven aggressively, you will notice it.
As I said in an earlier post when I drove the Prius and a Mini Cooper S back-to-back, the word that comes to mind with the Prius is "antiseptic". It's a wonderful, smoooth, quiet, comfortable, highly-efficient car for cruising. It appeals to people who love the technology and like to compute their gas milage to three decimal places.
I actually looked very hard at three cars: Prius, Cooper S, and WRX. I think the WRX is a great compromise between these extremes. It's very sporty, reasonably powerful, yet has quite a bit of room/utility and AWD. The downside is relatively poor gas mileage from the turbo four. All cars are compromises.
I'm sure a hybrid sporty car is on the horizon, but the Prius isn't it.
- Mark
I'm sure Ireland has very strict importation regulations and duties as well, so bringing a car from the states will be difficult and expensive.
This is just general information and I'll bow to specific information. But what you're talking about almost never makes sense.
- Mark
I did research the topic with Irish Government officials. If you can prove that you owned and insured you vehicle for a period of 6 months prior to shipping to Ireland, your car is duty free and tax free if you are moving to Ireland to work or take up residency. They are rather liberal with their regulations under those circumstances. It actually pays to purchase a car here. The cost of the container to ship, which you must use to ship your furniture and personal belongings anyhow, is offset by the savings one can realize by avoiding the tax which is imposed on new cars in Ireland. Of course, the problem is somewhat circular as you must first find a dealer who can procure a RHD vehicle.
I just got back from about an hour's drive in our 03 Prius. Apologies to john1701a and others are in order.
Virtually everything john said about the operation of the Prius system was correct and virtually everything I said was wrong.
It does charge the batteries when you let off the gas. It will even charge the batteries on an uphill run in cruise control.
One of these days I might learn that when Japanese automotive designers are involved not many things come out the logical way.
For instance.
Simply release the brake, no throttle, and the car uses the batteries to start moving forward.
Lift your foot from the throttle and it starts "STOPPING", charging the batteries via regenerative braking!
On cruise control starting up a long incline it will initially be using the ICE and simultaneously charging the batteries. As the speed decays (???) a point is reached where the system is reversed and the batteries start "supercharging", assisting, the ICE.
Tire revs/mile are slightly higher than stock, ~1%, which theoretically should produce marginally better acceleration. However, tire weight, which I suspect is higher than stock due to the additional sidewall belts and deeper tread, is greater, but I offset that by discarding the ugly and heavy wheel trim rings.
The best part is that my local tire dealer, America's Tire Company, gave me $120 in trade towards the Potenzas, for a net cost of $270. I can't think of a less expensive upgrade that will return anywhere near as much in comfort, safety, handling, and FUN! This thing now comes closer to handling like a sports sedan, no joke. Light weight helps here. It turns out this is a momentum car, carry speed deep into a corner and it hangs. The key to this is left foot braking while maintaining throttle on. The TRAC/VSC will activate and retard power when you do it right, but it's less obtrusive than other Toyota/Lexus vehicles I've owned and raced. I do wish we had a defeat switch for those systems, though.
For reference, I'm an SCCA autocross champion driver, and know a little about vehicle dynamics. This car has the potential to deliver some fun, not just economy and low emissions.
For those here concerned about fuel economy, my first tank that included "heat cycling" (heh) the new Potenzas returned 48 mpg with ambient temps in the high 30's low 40's, calculated from consecutive fills, not the computer. I don't street race, so won't have any kill stories (as if I would anyway), but just today gave a couple of ricers in their Integras fits on a back road. No, I won't be taking it to the track. I'd be pounded by Celicas in G Stock. But, for cheap giggles while pretending to save the Earth, Prius can't be beat!
My only concerns with the 2004 model are:
1) I'm 6'4". I couldn't fit very comfortably in the 2003 model.
2) The new aerodynamic styling limits the rear view.
Any thoughts?
55 mpg overall. That's more like it. But does it measure up to mainstream cars that cost about the same?
Yes. I was quite impressed. The interior is far nicer than the norm, with cushy soft fabrics and upgraded, thick carpets with nicely finished edges. In fact I'd rank it higher than the Camry in this regard. It definitely feels substantial, not like an economy car. It had heft.
Toyota pitches this as a mid-size that seats 5. Well, that's a stretch. The wheelbase is long and leg room is plentiful. Headroom is great up front, but in the back my head rubbed on the headliner. The middle seat is tight, narrow, and the hump limits the amount of time I'd be willing to spend there. Put the nice arm rest down and call it a very comfy 4 seater.
The cargo area is decent, but easily expands with quick folding seats. Tall items won't fit unless you leave the hatch open. Again, though, the nicely finished edges on the carpets, perfect seams, exemplary quality of assembly that puts the $37k Armada to shame.
Press "Power" to turn it on. OK, cool. The shift lever was user-friendly, I figured it out without instructions (try that in a BMW 7 series). The tach and speedo are too far off for my taste, the only negative in a very nice interior.
Oddly, it's totally silent. It pulls off quietly, and the motor kicks in when needed, so smoothly that I would not have noticed were I not looking for it. In traffic it is Lexus-quiet. Kudos.
The CVT is brilliant. I've had a CVT in a 2 wheeler before, and dreaded the droning from the engine. Not so here, Toyota tuned it nicely. It's so smooth I didn't even feel the need to ask for a manual.
Ride is cushy, one pot hole did make us bottom out but DC's roads can be awful. It accelerates to speed a lot better than you'd expect from 76 hp, but that's because with electric assist you have 110hp on tap, not to mention 295 lb-ft of torque right at idle. Score!
The Energy Monitor is so cool that you can't help but watch what's going on, try to get the best MPG possible. Next to it are two glove boxes, and lost of space for the front passengers. You can even get side curtain air bags to protect the passengers.
We came to a stop, and I pressed the Park button. Easy enough. Outside I note the Jetsons exterior looks better in person. They've even slammed the taillights for you, with clear lenses that look futuristic. Welcome to 2040, Earthling.
The hatch opens with an electric latch, like some high-end luxury cars. You get HIDs and even a rear wiper, with DVD Navigation optional. Don't bother asking for that in the Civic Hybrid.
Misses are few. It's got a donut spare, but considering efficiency is the priority here, that's acceptable.
I left with a smile. I have to admit it's too small to replace my Forester, but boy would I be interested in a hybrid AWD SUV when those become available.
-juice