Edmunds dealer partner, Bayway Leasing, is now offering transparent lease deals via these forums. Click here to see the latest vehicles!

Toyota Prius

11920222425138

Comments

  • jeep2jettajeep2jetta Member Posts: 53
    I have seen pictures of pre-delivery Prius from John and others and noticed that the rear bumper spoiler (black plastic) had not been installed. I have also looked at the PDF file for dealer pre-delivery prep work and it includes the installation of this spoiler. My question is: does anyone know if this spoiler is really neccessary? my personal opinion is that the Prius looks better without this spoiler. I am considering leaving this spoiler off prior to taking delivery and dealer prep. This may be a "drag coefficient" issues much like the plastic rings around the wheels. Hmmm...
  • john1701ajohn1701a Member Posts: 1,897
    > Using the ICE to recharge the batteries for additional
    > use will always result in a NET LOSS versus just using
    > only the ICE.

    THERE IS A LOSS, but it is NOT net. There really is a savings.

    Electric motors are more efficient than combustion engines. (That is not a topic for debate, it is a very well proven fact.) The point of the hybrid design is to be able to exploit that by MINIMIZING the loss circumstances. By reducing them as much as possible, you get greater efficiency than with a combustion engine alone.

     
    > Someone stated earlier that the HSD system would use
    > regenerative braking to recharge the batteries during
    > simple coasting

    Your misconception comes from the words "braking" and "regeneration". In reality, neither is accurate.

    HSD (and THS) use a "GENERATION" system. Whenever there is excess thrust, which occurs mostly when the engine is propeling the vehicle not when braking, electricity is created. Remember, the CVT intentionally creates this situation. Touching the brake is not required. The excess thrust is automatically detected.

     
    JOHN
  • drmpdrmp Member Posts: 187
    > Using the ICE to recharge the batteries for additional
    > use will always result in a NET LOSS versus just using
    > only the ICE.

    On the prius, stop-&-go city driving the engine runs and idle while charging the batteries and also recycle energy from regenerative braking. Engine shuts off when battery is fully charged. while engine is running, it also provide additional thrust to the wheels.

    On conventional car, the engine runs and idle even when not needed.
  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    Absent brake application as a signal, EXCESS THRUST can only be determined by looking through MY EYES at what lies ahead and into MY MIND for my future (immediate) intentions.

    Automakers have been working FOREVER to reduce the drag coefficient and now you're trying to tell me they're readily adding it back in by charging the batteries via regenerative braking during "coasting".

    Sorry, can't buy that particular load of poles.
  • geminijaxgeminijax Member Posts: 24
    Test drove the '04 Prius couple of days ago. Handles very well, accelarates well. Seems to be a wee bit short on trunk space.

    What's with the options packaging? Is is the "market demand" effect? I wanted everything on the list except for the NAV since it has very little use for me. Turns out that's not possible, at least currently. NAV jacks up the price by about $2-3K! That's rather steep for something that I don't really want/need. Any ideas if this situation is going to change, i.e. be able to get a la carte options?
  • antzantz Member Posts: 13
    Hi All,

    Is there a button for forced the vehicle to be fully electric? I thought I've read some member was saying that there is such a feature? But I can't find it on my manual!

    Thanks,
    Antz
  • john1701ajohn1701a Member Posts: 1,897
    > EXCESS THRUST can only be determined by looking
    > through MY EYES

    The hybrid system creates it, NOT the driver. Perhaps that is the basis of your misunderstanding.

    How this design works can easily be cleared up by simply watching the Multi-Display while taking a test-drive.

    JOHN
  • john1701ajohn1701a Member Posts: 1,897
    It's really a "maximize stealth" button. "EV" is quite misleading.

    That particular feature is not available in the United States, due to regulation issues.

    Stealth still works here, it's just not maximized. But the performance is definitely improved from the classic model. So there's hardly much of a loss.

    Technically, the system could still be retrofit later on with that button. But currently, no one has figured out what it would take. Perhaps, once those dang regulations are dealt with, Toyota will offer an upgrade kit like they did for cruise-control.

    JOHN
  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    john1701a

    NET LOSS...

    Ever notice that when charging or discharging batteries they tend to heat up? That's because ALL batteries have an internal resistance to electrical current flow. Try to charge a battery too fast and it will overheat and oftentimes explode.

    Same thing with discharging too rapidly.

    Look at it this way.

    Say I can use the ICE to run the generator which in turn powers the electric motor and that is used to drive the wheels. We just decribed a diesel/elect railroad engine by the way.

    Now put the Prius set of batteries in the system, I lose energy, via the battery resistance, both in the charge path and in the discharge path.

    The net loss can be really serious as is indicated by the Prius' poor hwy MPG. On the highway the batteries become nothing more or less than a supercharger with all the losses of same.

    Oh, and one of the referenced articles states the Atkinson cycle engines (Prius uses the Miller cycle modification of Atkinson) are hardly ever viable absent a supercharger. In the Prius the electric motor/battery combination serves as THAT supercharger.
  • daysailerdaysailer Member Posts: 720
    On an instantaneous basis, it is ALWAYS less efficient to use electric drive than the ICE directly, since there are the ADDITIONAL losses of the generator, battery, drive controller and motor. ALL energy ultimately comes from gasoline (baring a one way trip from Denver to death Valley, or other net downhill, or a tailwind). Cycle efficiency is a different matter, however, and the designer must choose compromises based on an assumed driving cycle. Electric-only operation may contribute to net cycle efficiency to the extent that it reduces the number of ICE starts and/or allows the ICE to generate under more efficient operating conditions (i.e. the improvement in ICE efficiency is greater than the electric drive losses for a given operating condition). Confounding this is the need to reduce emissions and/or accelerate and/or climb mountains and/or whatever.

    Whether a particular operating mode, under specific conditions optimizes a particular parameter within a particular driving cycle is a question that only Toyota can answer, anecdotal evidence notwithstanding. Consequently Toyota's program is the best resource that you have to determine whether electric only operation is beneficial, so why would you want to maximize it?
  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    First, I didn't say the driver did.

    What I said was that I'm the only one to see, and I'm the ONLY decision maker, as to whether or not I wish the car to be slowing down.

    If the hybrid system suddenly, or even "seamlessly", decides to throw in a little regenerative effort I would most likely suspect that a head wind just came up and I need to apply more throttle to maintain my speed....

    If I'm going downhill and lift my foot from the throttle to conserve fuel and the system starts applying the "brakes" my instincts will be to get back on the gas. Even if I don't get back on the gas immediately then I will still need to do that earlier than otherwise due to the increased "drag" of the regenerative effort.

    Like a heavilly loaded trucker coasting, speeding, downhill to conserve fuel but then throwing a dragchute out.

    On the other hand a light foot on the brake pedal (or in "cruise") to maintain a set speed downhill and the system using that as a signal to charge the batteries for "boost" on the uphill pull makes a lot of sense.
  • john1701ajohn1701a Member Posts: 1,897
    > The net loss can be really serious as is indicated
    > by the Prius' poor hwy MPG

    A 51 MPG highway rating is poor?

    No other gasoline powered vehicle that size can compete with efficiency so high. Since the end result is *BETTER*, it is a *GAIN*. How can you claim a net loss?

    JOHN
  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    I would be willing to bet you a brand new 04 Prius that I can BEAT the hwy mileage of any 04 Prius in that same Prius if I could prevent the batteries from being needlessly used on a run from Seattle to Portland.

    Watching the dash "gauges" it was my experience that no matter how lightly I feathered the increase in throttle position the electrics would come FULLY on line. I was willing to settle for a slow acceleration rate using just the ICE but the system wouldn't let me settle for that. The result was about 30 to 40 needless discharge/charge cycles in 150 miles.

    Yes, 51 MPG is pretty damn good. But if one could avoid needlessly discharging (supercharging the "weak" engine) and then recharging the batteries in a continuous cycle for a 150 mile reasonably flat freeway drive the mileage would be even better.
  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    I have read all three references, all good reads, especially the latter, but I can find no statement implying the batteries are automatically charged during coasting.

    Would you mind directing me more explicitly to same?
  • john1701ajohn1701a Member Posts: 1,897
    > ...flat freeway drive the mileage would be even better.

    That has absolutely, positively nothing to do with a "net loss".

    It is still a gain no matter how you analyze it. What did I miss?

    JOHN
  • cason621cason621 Member Posts: 15
    wwest,

    It works a similar way in the Civic hybrid. Lifting off the gas causes the regen feature to kick in.

    To maximize opportunities to recharge the batteries, I guess the computers assume that when you're not on the gas, you don't need thrust, so that spinning drive shaft can be used to turn the generator (electric motor). I use it all the time to maximize charging.

    Mike
  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    I was not referring to the "overall" design or execution of the Prius design, only to the detail of the NET LOSS resulting from the needless discharging of the batteries resulting in the losses via the use of the ICE for recharging.
  • john1701ajohn1701a Member Posts: 1,897
    Quite a number of times now, definitions of words have changed as discussions continue. No hard feelings on this side. I've grown used to it.

    For our next topic, how about discussion winter efficiency? Lots and lots of people aren't aware of those cold weather factors that cause MPG to drop.

    JOHN
  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    John1701a,

    You "restated" my position on NET LOSS so explicity in post 1096 that I see no way it could have been misunderstood to be more "global" than I intended.
  • mrvadeboncoeurmrvadeboncoeur Member Posts: 146
    Graham's site pretty well describes the charging
    while coasting.

    You can really notice the difference between the
    regenerative braking while coasting, vs. no
    regenerative braking, by throwing the Prius into
    Neutral while coasting. Instead of slowly slowing down,
    you just sort of glide along. Unfortunately, by
    going into Neutral, the battery no longer gets
    charged...
  • mrvadeboncoeurmrvadeboncoeur Member Posts: 146
    In a normal car, any excess power from the ICE
    that isn't used for motive force is wasted. (Think
    about coasting or going downhill - the engine isn't
    doing much work to keep you going...)

    In a Prius, the eCVT keeps the ICE at the most
    efficient (cleanest) RPM. In some cases, there is
    more power coming from the engine than what is
    needed to move the car (uphills, usually), and this
    excess power is routed to charging the battery, or
    the electric motor.

    Strange, but usually a Prius gets better MPG going
    through hills than if it took the flatland route!
  • poppop3poppop3 Member Posts: 3
    I placed an order for a 2004 Prius in mid-October with a Fairfield County CT dealer. Yesterday I spoke with the salesman, who said that I was 15th on their order list and they anticipated getting 1 or 2 a month starting this month. And only two option packages - everything or almost nothing. When I go online to buyatoyota.com for Ft. Lauderdale, where my daughter lives, the availability list goes on for pages, with lots of different option packages. I could cancel my CT order, order the car in Florida and ask her to drive it north, and maybe I'd even have some bargaining power on price. Does anyone have any thoughts on whether this makes sense? And why is there such a demand - supply imbalance?
  • john1701ajohn1701a Member Posts: 1,897
    I've grown tired of constantly having my words twisted here. That doesn't happen elsewhere.

    Those that are interested in assistance with Prius know where to find me. And I'd much rather help them than just put out all the fires you keep setting.

    Goodbye.

    JOHN
  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    coming from the engine than is what needed to move the car (uphills, usually)....

    Why would the engine produce more power, using MORE fuel, than is required to move the vehicle, especially uphill? I would think, assuming the batteries have some reserve left, this would be a very important time to use the batteries to boost the net output power and conserve fuel.

    As a matter of fact that's the exact way my 03 seems to work. I'll have to pay more attention now, but I don't think I've EVER seen the batteries being charged in this circumstance. Absent starting out virtually fully discharged, maybe.
  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    Without admitting that it actually does....

    How or why is it an advantage to use regenerative braking during "coasting" (no throttle or brake application) to recharge the batteries?

    Without this "braking" (however slight) the car would coast farther and thereby use less fuel overall.
  • john1701ajohn1701a Member Posts: 1,897
    > Without this "braking" (however slight) the car would coast
    > farther and thereby use less fuel overall.

    The primary purpose of HSD is to REDUCE SMOG-FORMING EMISSIONS.

    Since using less fuel is secondary, opportunities to do save are sometimes not taken for the sake of being CLEANER OVERALL.

    JOHN
  • masshockeymasshockey Member Posts: 11
    I have had the '04 prius in my garage for 1 week. Averaged 46.3 mpg over first 400 miles, without trying. I love this car. Handles better and rides more smoothly than old Prius (my daughter has an '01). The fold down rear seats were a necessity for me. The blue is a very nice shade, was kind of hard to tell exactly what you were going to get from the web site. I got the first one from my dealer. My only complaint to date is the faint green line on the windshield at night from reflections from the speedometer display- any suggestions? I haven't tried to create a "blocker" about the display yet.
  • daysailerdaysailer Member Posts: 720
    seem well pleased with their new Prius, as it should be.

    I am eager to see how it compares to other vehicles when there are independent test reports available.
  • lsinclsinc Member Posts: 270
    My husband and I are considering purchasing an '04 Prius sometime in the future. Currently my husband commutes 350 miles in 5 days and we are looking for fuel economy. We also need a car that is reliable and good in snow. Can anyone give me information on

    1. Fuel ecomony ratings
    2. Overall Reliability
    3. Handling in rain and snow

    Thanks.

    Leslie
  • jeep2jettajeep2jetta Member Posts: 53
    Masshockey...I've post this issue previously and from other owners, all you have to do is turn down the dimmer switch/wheel to the left of your steering wheel. This should take away the glare. Happy driving. Tony.
  • gpsiirgpsiir Member Posts: 22
    That's interesting, but I've just used the inventory searcher to check Denver for any Prius's that may be available, and... it lists Prius's as available that I *know* are sold, in fact, I was working with the biggest dealership in Denver, and all Prius's in Denver are sold already through the rest of the year. The salesman advised me if I want one I should put down a non-refundable deposit now and I would get one first quarter of next year. Needless to say I didn't....Hmm, if Florida really has a lot of 'em, I could fly to Florida, and drive a new one back, heck, driving would be cheaper than flying, in a Prius ;-)
  • mrvadeboncoeurmrvadeboncoeur Member Posts: 146
    My husband's Pioneer ordered 2004 arrived at the
    dealer yesterday.

    Because of prep work (3M poly-bra, for example),
    we probably won't get it until today or tomorrow.

    That, and we're both going to the Toyota Engines of Change
    tour in Newton, MA today. (Invitation-only event.)
  • daysailerdaysailer Member Posts: 720
    those, such as myself, for whom "sporty" dynamics are a priority would wait for independent test data to establish that a car has that capability before commiting to a purchase. In the Prius' case, that is all the more important since the previous generation was so deficient in that realm.
  • markjennmarkjenn Member Posts: 1,142
    Any car can be driven in a sporty way and have fun, including the Prius, but it's a poor choice if this is your primary interest in a car.

    It's got modest power, relatively low handling limits, and the CVT makes it a droner. Your commands to the car are going through a computer interface, and the engine starts/stops depending on load - this dulls the reflexes. Driven smoothly and gently, all this happens seamlessly in the background, but driven aggressively, you will notice it.

    As I said in an earlier post when I drove the Prius and a Mini Cooper S back-to-back, the word that comes to mind with the Prius is "antiseptic". It's a wonderful, smoooth, quiet, comfortable, highly-efficient car for cruising. It appeals to people who love the technology and like to compute their gas milage to three decimal places.

    I actually looked very hard at three cars: Prius, Cooper S, and WRX. I think the WRX is a great compromise between these extremes. It's very sporty, reasonably powerful, yet has quite a bit of room/utility and AWD. The downside is relatively poor gas mileage from the turbo four. All cars are compromises.

    I'm sure a hybrid sporty car is on the horizon, but the Prius isn't it.

    - Mark
  • seamusanrinnseamusanrinn Member Posts: 2
    Does anyone know if it is possible to purchase a Prius with right hand drive in the US. We will be moving to Ireland shortly and know that it is cheaper to purchase a car here in the states and ship. The tax on a new car in Ireland is very high. Also, petrol is much higher in price, and the environment is of course a major concern, which adds significantly to the attraction of the Prius. If anyone has information to share on this subject it would be greatly appreciated.
  • markjennmarkjenn Member Posts: 1,142
    Anything is possible with enough time/money, but generally no, it is not possible to import and license a current-model RHD car in the states. It doesn't meet federal safety standards - there are ways to do it for collector and one-off cars, but it is prohibitively expensive.

    I'm sure Ireland has very strict importation regulations and duties as well, so bringing a car from the states will be difficult and expensive.

    This is just general information and I'll bow to specific information. But what you're talking about almost never makes sense.

    - Mark
  • djasonwdjasonw Member Posts: 624
    agreed... had a WRX for 9 months and it was a nice car. I had the auto which really blunted performance but can't have a manual in NY Metro. Mileage was poor for a 2.0 liter (got low 20's). Doors were very tinny sounding when you closed them too.
  • seamusanrinnseamusanrinn Member Posts: 2
    Thanks Mark,
    I did research the topic with Irish Government officials. If you can prove that you owned and insured you vehicle for a period of 6 months prior to shipping to Ireland, your car is duty free and tax free if you are moving to Ireland to work or take up residency. They are rather liberal with their regulations under those circumstances. It actually pays to purchase a car here. The cost of the container to ship, which you must use to ship your furniture and personal belongings anyhow, is offset by the savings one can realize by avoiding the tax which is imposed on new cars in Ireland. Of course, the problem is somewhat circular as you must first find a dealer who can procure a RHD vehicle.
  • paul34bpaul34b Member Posts: 33
    Pioneer from Portland, Maine. Finally, I just picked up my 2004 Prius from my dealyer. Wahoooo!!!. I love it!!
  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    said the blind man when the goose kicked him.

    I just got back from about an hour's drive in our 03 Prius. Apologies to john1701a and others are in order.

    Virtually everything john said about the operation of the Prius system was correct and virtually everything I said was wrong.

    It does charge the batteries when you let off the gas. It will even charge the batteries on an uphill run in cruise control.

    One of these days I might learn that when Japanese automotive designers are involved not many things come out the logical way.

    For instance.

    Simply release the brake, no throttle, and the car uses the batteries to start moving forward.

    Lift your foot from the throttle and it starts "STOPPING", charging the batteries via regenerative braking!

    On cruise control starting up a long incline it will initially be using the ICE and simultaneously charging the batteries. As the speed decays (???) a point is reached where the system is reversed and the batteries start "supercharging", assisting, the ICE.
  • humphryshumphrys Member Posts: 2
    My new '04 Prius has 100 miles on it and I love it. It is peppy and rather strong above 30mph up to about 65 mph. It cruises great at 75 mph and is quieter at that speed than my BMW 5 series. I drive it with a heavy foot (not all the time) and it is getting 46 MPG. On my 14 mile trip to work today with just going along with the traffic my MPG was 52.
  • funpilotfunpilot Member Posts: 66
    Just filled up my Prius. The display indicated 54.1 mpg at 491 miles. After filling it up, I calculated 56.0 mpg. Now I have that weird winter gas. Lets see what happens next.
  • ampedamped Member Posts: 13
    On the second day of ownership I switched the OEM Goodyears for 195/60-15 Bridgestone Potenza RE-950's, an all-season HR rated tire that transformed the car (favorably) in every way. That includes ride, handling, steering precision (the Goodyears tramlined), noise, and fitment was easy with no rub at full lock.

    Tire revs/mile are slightly higher than stock, ~1%, which theoretically should produce marginally better acceleration. However, tire weight, which I suspect is higher than stock due to the additional sidewall belts and deeper tread, is greater, but I offset that by discarding the ugly and heavy wheel trim rings.

    The best part is that my local tire dealer, America's Tire Company, gave me $120 in trade towards the Potenzas, for a net cost of $270. I can't think of a less expensive upgrade that will return anywhere near as much in comfort, safety, handling, and FUN! This thing now comes closer to handling like a sports sedan, no joke. Light weight helps here. It turns out this is a momentum car, carry speed deep into a corner and it hangs. The key to this is left foot braking while maintaining throttle on. The TRAC/VSC will activate and retard power when you do it right, but it's less obtrusive than other Toyota/Lexus vehicles I've owned and raced. I do wish we had a defeat switch for those systems, though.

    For reference, I'm an SCCA autocross champion driver, and know a little about vehicle dynamics. This car has the potential to deliver some fun, not just economy and low emissions.

    For those here concerned about fuel economy, my first tank that included "heat cycling" (heh) the new Potenzas returned 48 mpg with ambient temps in the high 30's low 40's, calculated from consecutive fills, not the computer. I don't street race, so won't have any kill stories (as if I would anyway), but just today gave a couple of ricers in their Integras fits on a back road. No, I won't be taking it to the track. I'd be pounded by Celicas in G Stock. But, for cheap giggles while pretending to save the Earth, Prius can't be beat!
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    I have been wondering if the design of the car, e.g. the mass and location of the battery pack, would contribute in any way to handling by making the car's center of gravity lower than on a typical small car and also distributing the weight more towards the rear, compared to typical front-drive cars. Anyone know the front/rear weight distribution on the '04 Prius?
  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    For Track (a Prius??). Simply remove the ABS pump/motor fuse.
  • pjroystonpjroyston Member Posts: 1
    The main feature about the Prius that I feel isn't stressed enough is that it gets better City MPG than Highway. Since I live in the DC metro area with some of the worst traffic in the nation, this is a huge benefit. Not to mention I can't wait for the day when I can walk down a city street and not suck down massive amounts of exhaust. If only all cars were SULEV or PZEV!

    My only concerns with the 2004 model are:
    1) I'm 6'4". I couldn't fit very comfortably in the 2003 model.
    2) The new aerodynamic styling limits the rear view.
    Any thoughts?
  • gregsturgregstur Member Posts: 1
    Test drove the '04 in Mass. a couple of weeks ago. I'm 6-1, and found the driving position OK, with the exception that the left footrest is positioned so your left leg is pretty bent. I would suggest you try one out for fit! I didn't find the rear view particularly problematic.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    After the trauma of seeing the Armada's Monroney sticker, indicating 13/19 mpg EPA estimates, it just felt right to take a peek at the new Prius. I first saw one in April at the NY Auto Show, and found the 5 door configuation more appealing than all existing hybrid vehicles.

    55 mpg overall. That's more like it. But does it measure up to mainstream cars that cost about the same?

    Yes. I was quite impressed. The interior is far nicer than the norm, with cushy soft fabrics and upgraded, thick carpets with nicely finished edges. In fact I'd rank it higher than the Camry in this regard. It definitely feels substantial, not like an economy car. It had heft.

    Toyota pitches this as a mid-size that seats 5. Well, that's a stretch. The wheelbase is long and leg room is plentiful. Headroom is great up front, but in the back my head rubbed on the headliner. The middle seat is tight, narrow, and the hump limits the amount of time I'd be willing to spend there. Put the nice arm rest down and call it a very comfy 4 seater.

    The cargo area is decent, but easily expands with quick folding seats. Tall items won't fit unless you leave the hatch open. Again, though, the nicely finished edges on the carpets, perfect seams, exemplary quality of assembly that puts the $37k Armada to shame.

    Press "Power" to turn it on. OK, cool. The shift lever was user-friendly, I figured it out without instructions (try that in a BMW 7 series). The tach and speedo are too far off for my taste, the only negative in a very nice interior.

    Oddly, it's totally silent. It pulls off quietly, and the motor kicks in when needed, so smoothly that I would not have noticed were I not looking for it. In traffic it is Lexus-quiet. Kudos.

    The CVT is brilliant. I've had a CVT in a 2 wheeler before, and dreaded the droning from the engine. Not so here, Toyota tuned it nicely. It's so smooth I didn't even feel the need to ask for a manual.

    Ride is cushy, one pot hole did make us bottom out but DC's roads can be awful. It accelerates to speed a lot better than you'd expect from 76 hp, but that's because with electric assist you have 110hp on tap, not to mention 295 lb-ft of torque right at idle. Score!

    The Energy Monitor is so cool that you can't help but watch what's going on, try to get the best MPG possible. Next to it are two glove boxes, and lost of space for the front passengers. You can even get side curtain air bags to protect the passengers.

    We came to a stop, and I pressed the Park button. Easy enough. Outside I note the Jetsons exterior looks better in person. They've even slammed the taillights for you, with clear lenses that look futuristic. Welcome to 2040, Earthling.

    The hatch opens with an electric latch, like some high-end luxury cars. You get HIDs and even a rear wiper, with DVD Navigation optional. Don't bother asking for that in the Civic Hybrid.

    Misses are few. It's got a donut spare, but considering efficiency is the priority here, that's acceptable.

    I left with a smile. I have to admit it's too small to replace my Forester, but boy would I be interested in a hybrid AWD SUV when those become available.

    -juice
  • djasonwdjasonw Member Posts: 624
    Nice post! Enjoyed reading it. I too was considering that tire but in the same size as the original. I suppose that your size isn't much of a difference. Someone mentioned Michelin Hydroedge.... is that something to be considered when the two are compared? I'm picking up tomorrow and really don't like the OEM tires.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Nice review! You won't have long to wait, the hybrid Highlander and RX330 are next up for Toyota.
Sign In or Register to comment.