Toyota Prius

backy · December 2003

From what I've seen, pkg 9 is very popular and in general Priuses are going for at least MSRP, although there are a few reports here (including mine) of some small discounts being obtained, like $500 off MSRP. You can get the MSRP price either here at Edmunds.com or from www.toyota.com/prius.

As for eBay, if you do that you should check out the seller's ratings and comments from other buyers. If it were me, I'd only by a Prius on eBay if it were certified brand new and from a Toyota dealer, and if there is a way to back out of the deal if I don't like the car for some reason (but I think eBay sales are "final").

drscientific · December 2003

john1701a:

> What I don't believe is that this is cronic. A report or two isn't enough to say an entire production build of vehicles are included. Keep in mind that those of us in the north are exposing our Prius to excessive amounts of moisture without experiencing the same problem.

You have only my word that the Hyannis people told me it was a build error in using the wrong connector and that the grease is a temporary fix. He told me this after consulting with the Toyota tech line! Today, Toyota claims that the grease is a "permanent" fix.

You also only have my word that the Jackson mechanic explained that the connector is **inside** the transmission and so is not affected by outside conditions.

The explanation for the failure is as follows (as I recall from my discussions with the two mechanics and/or service advisors).

Water condenses on the wire that leads to the M5 connector. This takes place inside the transaxle. This water travels down the wire and into the connector itself. Moisture in the connector causes random failure because of interference with signals being sent around the car.

Check your build number. Mine is under 10,000. If yours is sufficiently above it, then you have the proper connector. The alternate explanation is that all of these people were lying to me -- possible, but not likely -- and that Toyota is not hiding the truth because they'd really like to replace 10,000 transaxles, which (by the way) would impact their ability to build and ship more new Priuses and so would cost them much more than just the transaxle costs.

If my problem (and that of juliaj) is unique, nothing more will happen. If, instead, more reports like mine occur (with the grease fix), then Toyota will eventually have to own up to the error, especially if the grease fix isn't "permanent." A few deaths would help to get their attention. I'm not volunteering and I'm fairly sure that no one else on this list will either.

drscientific · December 2003

This is my third trip to Toyota service, now South Bay Toyota (Torrance, CA). One more without a fix, and lemon laws kick in.

These people said that they did nothing but inspect the previous repair because the Prius computer showed no new codes.

This RO says, "Has not recurred since last repair. Did not duplicate condition. Close per Toyota."

At the time of the first repair, I was told that if I waited a week, I would get a new transaxle. I was also told that they could repair temporarily so I could get back to CA for my business, and that the replacement would take place there. Clearly this message came from Toyota engineering. The MA people could not make these assurances on their own.

Although the second visit had the mechanic getting "special grease" to pack the connection, these people say that silicone was applied to the connection between the wire and the connector boot and that this silicone will prevent recurrence.

Upon further friendly questioning, the service advisor admitted that even this fix was temporary and that the final fix would be a waterproof boot on the M5 connector sometime in the future.

I feel used. I don't like getting various inconsistent messages from the same organization. As a result, I don't trust what is said. When the DSPM calls, I'll ask for an iron-clad guarantee in writing that this condition will never recur. We'll see how solidly Toyota stands behind their latest "repair."

Because the silicone addition was never mentioned in Jackson, I have to assume that it was done in CA and not disclosed. I hate assuming anything, especially when my life and fortune are involved.

dc8527 · December 2003

That was what I hoped.

I actually got 36 mpg in the city, averaged over the first 200 miles. I bought this 2004 Prius only a week ago, have driven it gently for about 200 miles, still in the break-in. I have followed the gas economy tips in the user's manual. The roads were flat. I was alone in the car with no cargo. My weight is 1500 lbs, I mean, only 1/10 of that, 150 lbs. I am very disappointed!

oldfox · December 2003

My Vin # ends in 24090, guess this is way above 10000 so should be OK.

But...What does it mean? How do you translate that number to the date the car was built?

Drscientific: Sure hope this all works out for you. What a Bummer!!

aligrat · December 2003

That's what I was telling you. The lady at the dealership that I talked to was the one who handles the allocations for that dealership. The salesman kept being all sunshine saying it could be any Thursday because that's their allotment day but the Prius were really only coming first of each month (for their dealership) per the lady who actually gets the allotments. She told me what oldfox is telling you. They get whatever and how many every Prius are alloted to their dealership-not based on what was "ordered"-and they start with #1 on the list and see if they want that particular color/package. If not, they move on to #2 and so on. Sometimes they trade with another dealer if each has what the other wants. That's one reason it amazed me what your dealership was telling you. If that happens, then great. I would just ask them to explain their "ordering" process if you're still uncomfortable. How many cars a dealer is allotted depends on their size and how well they've sold a particular car in the past.

jtrew77 · December 2003

Okay...after all of that with my dealership here in VA...I may have found a dealership with a package #8 that I may be able to pick up over Christmas while visiting LA for the holidays. The only thing is...the sales tax is significantly higher (3x's as much) in LA than it is in VA (therefore making us hesitate to purchase in LA). However, the salesman said that sales tax is charged based on the county of my residency. Is this true? And if so, how is this? Does anybody know the answer to this?

Maybe there's still hope!?!

Jennifer

scsims · December 2003

I have seen some unanswered questions concerning rear headroom in this vehicle. Well, my wife (6ft) and I (6ft 3in.) test drove the '04 a few days ago. She was absolutely convinced this car was 'the one', that is until we sat in the back seat. Her head hit the ceiling and was bent forward. My head was so crunched and bent that it wasn't the top of my head hitting the ceiling, it was the back of my head. We were really disappointed. I think we are probably heading toward a Civic.

backy · December 2003

Actually I posted on this point some time ago. I'm 5'10" and I had about 1" clearance in back. I could see how a 6+ footer would really have a problem. That's why I took my 15-year-old son (pushing 6') with me on a test drive, to make sure he could fit. He said the rear headroom was fine for him. In a year or so I expect he'll be riding up front (driving!) more than in the back. Try before you buy!

geogirl · December 2003

I definitely agree with backy that you should try the backseat. My husband (6'1") had no problems in the backseat. I suspect that depending on body proportions i.e. mostly longer legs or torso will have a bearing on how comfortable the backseat is for you.

We are told that we will get our Prius on Dec. 26. Will let you know in the Buying Experience forum how that goes.

lwdupont · December 2003

I think it must depend upon your body makeup.. I am 6'2", but I have pretty long legs, and I suppose a 'short' torso, and I fit well in the back seat.. (this was with the drivers seat in "my position").

The Prius might be replacing my A4 Avant when my lease is up next fall.

ateixeira · December 2003

I'm 6' even and I fit fine, no rubbing the headliner. 4 seats are comfy, the middle rear is a bit tight.

Test fitting is the smart thing to do.

-juice

afpadc · December 2003

The laws are different is each state, but generally you pay sales tax where the car is going to be registered. Call VA Motor Vehicles and ask them how you should suggest the LA dealer handle it. It won't be the first time they've been asked the question.

wwest · December 2003

But I've never tried driving from the rear seat.

But seriously, how many times will this be a problem?

backy · December 2003

It will be a problem for buyers who routinely carry tall people in the back seat. Not a problem for everyone, but if the shoe fits...

john1701a · December 2003

Prius is a "midsize" vehicle. So if you were to take that definition of the term literally, it is intended to fulfill "midsize" needs.

If you are a "full size" person, it would tend to make sense that you'd need a "full size" vehicle.

So... what does that mean? Are the category labels now meaningless in some respects or are some people's expectations misplaced?

JOHN

backy · December 2003

What it means is that you can't judge a car by its label. Some compact cars can have good headroom in the back because of their shape. This is especially true of "tall" sedans with squared-off hatchbacks. And you can have a mid-sized car like the Prius that is very streamlined, and rear seat headroom is not its strong suit. It's just another example of why buyers should check out a car in person before they buy one, and if rear-seat room is important, be sure to spend some time there. Not exactly rocket science.

azstan · December 2003

Learned from a Toyota salesman today (here in AZ) that Prius sales are slow in Washington state. Anyone comment on this?

Takes 3 weeks to 2 months to deliver in AZ...so I was told and selling at MSRP.

finestack · December 2003

I actually agree with John. Designations - brought into the world by Sloan's GM - are meant to establish EASIER choices for the consumer, who come in many different literal sizes. The government designations came afterward to establish COMPLEX tax codes, regulations and various other things that don't matter one iota to the consumer.

The Prius is now a government midsize ... but in Toyota's world (at least on this side of the pond) it is far to the small end of the portfolio.

That said, I'm an average 5'11" and finicky about leg and head room. Why leave choice to government and corporate naming convention? Test drive!!

oldfox · December 2003

Does anyone know how to determine what date a specific Prius was built?

john1701a · December 2003

> Does anyone know how to determine what date a specific
> Prius was built?

Look on the door-jam of the Prius for month & year.

Look on a Toyota service receipt for the exact day.

JOHN

wwest · December 2003

also has a rear, 2nd, seat that doesn't fit 6'2" folks.

backy · December 2003

revnkevin · December 2003

I have a 04 Prius with just over 1900 miles . When I change my oil at at 1600 miles ,I did see that Toyota had over filed the oil about 1/4 over the full mark, know it is just 1/4 under the full mark. now i am get about 2 Mpg better! My lifetime is 46.9 over 1900 mile. Most of my trips are very short 15 mins or less. I am very happy with the Mpg that the Prius is getting! I John has the best tips out there for the Prius. I have been following his tips since day one with my 04 Prius. Thanks for all the great tips John! Thanks John

jchan2 · December 2003

I'm not surprised at slow sales in Washington state, as they have a lot of country roads that are most commonly used by CUVs and SUVs. But "slow" may just mean that the waiting list is shorter and they're offering a discount of maybe $500 and not selling at full MSRP.

wwest · December 2003

Meant QX4....QNX is a real time operating system for PCs. Senior moment.

talleyid · December 2003

Ordered Driftwood Pearl #9 on November 7, 2003 from Newbold Toyota in O'Fallon, IL. Negotiated price was MSRP and they offer $300 in free oil changes for ALL sales. Was called yesterday and told that my car had arrived and that I can pick it up tonight which I'm planning on doing. Apparently there is some attempt at matching "orders" to vehicles since I requested a specific vehicle and they were able to process the order.

ateixeira · December 2003

My head rubs the rear headliner on the much bigger Dodge Intrepids.

I think Prius is reasonably roomy for its size, put it that way.

-juice

geogirl · December 2003

Does anyone who owns a Prius know if the computer and display fall under the 8 year/100,000 mile warranty? What exactly is covered under that warranty? My research just indicates "hybrid components". Thanks for your responses.

jtrew77 · December 2003

Well, another deal fell through. I've just about given up. The dealer in LA that was 99.9% sure he could do a trade with another dealer in MS, lost the deal. I guess that .1% chance that I would not end up in a Prius is just telling me that it's not meant to be. I really don't have the energy for this anymore. I wish I had dealt with an honest dealer from the beginning (back in October). Better luck to the rest of you guys expecting your Prius. And be sure to praise those dealerships that hold true to their words! We need more of them!

msbusch · December 2003

I was wondering if anyone living in an area such as me (Boulder, Colorado) has any experience with how well the Prius performs going up hills? I drove it around town, and am waiting to test drive again next week. I love the car. My only concern is at our altitude, and with our hills, will the car slow considerably going up hill.

john1701a · December 2003

The classic Prius proved altitude changes were no big deal. It climbed up mountains, in your area in fact, without any trouble. And it had a blast going down them. All that recharging is sweet!

So now with the more powerful new Prius, the issue is dead. Not only can it handle the climb, it can likely show off a bit now too.

JOHN

afpadc · December 2003

1) Anyone out there ever try to use a Motorola Timeport 270C (bluetooth capable) in a Prius? Neither Motorola nor Toyota seem capable of telling me whether it will work or not. 2) Any ideas if this information is available anywhere?

emptyseer · December 2003

I had no problem zipping up to the ski basin at 10,000 from Santa Fe at 7,000. I am sure there are faster cars, but they wouldn't have done much good going around the curves.

geogirl · December 2003

msbusch: I test drove the Prius from the Indiana exit on US 6 to I-70 up to Lookout Mountain exit in Colorado. It actually did very well. Reached 65 mph fairly quickly once on US 6 and, midnightcowboy, I passed an 18 wheeler with ease. For those not familiar with the area, this is a steep upward climb in the foothills of the Rocky Mountains at ~7000 feet elevation. My only regret is that on the return we took the windy frontage road as my husband wanted to check out how it handled on a curvey road. At the time I didn't know what the "B" position was for (the salesperson thought it stood for battery) so I didn't get to try that out. My impressions were that it didn't have as much pickup during acceleration going uphill as the 5 speed Accord which I drove on the same road. I also drove the Camry (automatic) on this same stretch of road and I think the Prius performed about the same as the Camry did. We were set to buy a Honda Accord before this test drive. After the test drive, my husband said to get the Prius.
We are suppose to pick it up Dec 26.

john1701a · December 2003

> Going up mountain hills is still a struggle

Haven't you been warned about being so extraordinarily VAGUE ?

That comment is completely void of any constructive content. Detail please. For all we now, you could have been trying to literally climb a mountain, which would obviously be harder than a road on a mountain.

JOHN

wwest · December 2003

Yesh, every time wife and I get back to the east coast or midwest we often laugh about what they call mountains.

john1701a · December 2003

> Mountain

I didn't see any numerical data whatsoever. SPEED, DISTANCE, GRADE, ROAD TYPE, and LOAD were not mentioned. Those factors all make a huge difference. Omitting them entirely is vague.

> You are the one who cited 10 dB at highway speed

NEVER did I claim that! The reference was about city type driving. How it became highway is still a mystery.

Lastly, attempts to discredit a person by excluding exact quotes and inferring meaning is not constructive in any way, shape, or form. So I refuse to acknowledge any of them.

JOHN

djasonw · December 2003

I suppose the east coast is really not mountain country but I have been on some very steep climbs without a problem. On route 84 at the NY PA boarder there is a steep climb from near sea level to 1300 feet above sea level. All 18 wheelers are in the right lane trying to attain 35-40 at best. I zipped up at 80 MPH with NO problems. Anyone that comments otherwise either hasn't driven the Prius or doesn't know what they're talking about.

wwest · December 2003

Are you sure the electrics weren't "supercharging" the ICE to maintain 80MPH and when they run down on a longer climb, more typical to the west, you're left with the ICE only?

djasonw · December 2003

The Prius does not have to rely on the electric motor to maintain a climb at 80 MPH. I've kept the engine display monitor on and there is NEVER a depletion of battery power below 3/4. I've read numerous stories of praise by west coasters who have driven in the Rockies without any problems. This vehicle continues to amaze me!

wwest · December 2003

Depends on who'is defining the climb. I haven't tried it, but I would bet that our 03 Prius can't reach the top of snoqualmie pass on I90 from the west at even 65MPH, on cruise to be most fair, without the electrics. Furthermore I'd bet the batteries would go offline before reaching the top at 80MPH. The latter bet I'd even take on in an 04 Prius.

backy · December 2003

Why don't you rent a '04 Prius or take one for a test drive to the top of Snoqualmie pass to test your hypothesis, and let us know the results?

john1701a · December 2003

> without the electrics

What the heck does that mean?

Electricity is produced 100% of the time the engine is providing thrust. There is no way to not have electrical activity.

In fact, the battery-pack is not even necessary to use the propulsion-motor. The engine normally feeds it directly anyway.

JOHN

wwest · December 2003

Gas = ICE //electrics = electric motor.

The power lines outside your home always have power available but do you always use it??

And...

In the Prius there are two "propulsion" motors, one gas and one electric.

And I rather doubt if you are correct about the ICE's generator driving the electric motor directly.

backy · December 2003

Aren't there two electric motors in the Prius' HSD? And doesn't the secondary electric motor sometimes add to the HSD's output (and sometimes act as a generator)?

loconetter · December 2003

Picked up my Salsa Red Pearl Prius. Greatly pleased with the color. Drove home, some 26 miles, and the Malfunction Warning light came on. Called the dealership. Service had already closed. The salesman stated they have had some where the "coating" on the catalytic converted doesn't get hot enough to burn off, fouls the Oxygen sensor, and thus the light. I will take it in Monday, however, wonder if anyone has any thoughts as to the possible explanation.

backy · December 2003

There was a thread somewhere on the Edmunds boards (can't find it now) about a problem that sounds like the one you are having. It seems that for the other owners who posted, driving on the highway for about 30 minutes burned off the coating and all was well.

john1701a · December 2003

> And I rather doubt if you are correct about the ICE's
> generator driving the electric motor directly.

No wonder you've been adversarial, you have a misunderstanding about how HSD works.

Take a look at the Multi-Display videos available on my website. You will very clearly see how the gasoline engine feeds the electric motor directly. This is NOT a topic of debate; it is a very very very well documented fact.

THAT'S WHY THE BATTERY-PACK LASTS SO LONG! It doesn't get used much when the engine is running.

Do some research. You'll discover that Toyota's design actually CANNOT send 100% of the thrust from engine directly to the wheels, even if it wanted to. And with a ridiculously powerful electric 50kW motor (capable of 295 lb-ft of torque) why wouldn't you want to take advantage of the electric abilities?

Your strange use of the term "electrics" is misleading at best, mostly just confusing.

50kW MOTOR is the big sucker. This is the one used for electric propulsion and for brake-regeneration.

10kW MOTOR is the little guy. It's the generator that produces electricity via the engine and non-braking kinetic energy opportunities.

PLANETARY-CVT is what bonds those 2 motors together combined with the engine to create both thrust & electricity while offering regeneration as well.

That is how the "FULL" hybrid design in HSD works.

The design in "ASSIST" hybrids is significantly different. With them, there is only 1 motor. So the creation & consumption of electricity can't happen simultaneously like it can in a "FULL" hybrid.

JOHN

loconetter · December 2003

I pre-ordered from Toyota of Nashua (N.H.) in October. They had no problem showing me the list as to how many were ahead of me. One week ago they called to say my exact color and package (BC)was in their allocation. I picked up a Salsa Red Pearl yesterday. The price was MSRP, as in the original pre-order. The car came with carpet floor mats, cargo net, and first aid kit, listed for $262 more. They included that in the original agreed upon price. All in all, it was a pleasant experience.

Toyota Prius

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