Edmunds dealer partner, Bayway Leasing, is now offering transparent lease deals via these forums. Click here to see the latest vehicles!
Popular New Cars
Popular Used Sedans
Popular Used SUVs
Popular Used Pickup Trucks
Popular Used Hatchbacks
Popular Used Minivans
Popular Used Coupes
Popular Used Wagons
Comments
I figure we'll do much better on this second tank, as we're still learning how to drive it efficiently, and it will get better still as warm weather comes on. But we're never going to be in the top MPG bracket, I'm afraid. Most of our trips are still under 10 minutes.
MPG isn't everything! We love driving our little Zippy, and are happy to not be adding more fumes to the air around Denver.
There are plenty of other options available for people satisfied with 32 MPG.
> satisfied with 32 MPG.
Not at sub-zero temperatures!
Most traditional vehicles dream of achieving 20 MPG during the warm-up phase when it's that cold.
Remember, the minimum EPA testing temperature is 68 F. That isn't even remotely close to what you actually experience during the winter.
> when people are expecting at least 50MPG.
In the warmer states, owners are currently reporting MPG in the upper 50's. So that expectation is quite valid.
JOHN
On the 04 Prius...what do you think plays a major factor in getting optimium gas mileage???...I've read you tips on your sight (excellant)...however...how do you drive to achieve better than 45 MPG regardless of temperature?
Thanks,
Mike
> optimium gas mileage???
Cold air is more dense, making it harder to push through, which lowers efficiency.
Winter-Formula gas holds less energy, so it is naturally less efficient.
Warm-up takes longer, that process consumes a lot of gas. Outside temperature has a significant influence on this efficiency loss.
- - - - - - -
Anywho, those 3 factors above are totally out of your control. But unfortunately, they all exist throughout the entire cold season. So getting above 45 MPG is quite difficult.
It's speeds above 65 MPH and heavy Stop & Slow traffic that you do actually have control over. And in the summer, you'll find those are the major efficiency killer, since air-density & winter-formula no longer apply and warm-up time is significantly reduce. So you can achieve close to 50 MPG with very little effort.
To achieve optimum performance, that's 55 MPG or better, the majority of your driving needs to fall within the "Suburb" type. The ideal is 35 to 50 MPH cruising for at least 20 minutes with only minimal stop signs/lights.
JOHN
The information in that article is simply incorrect. I have a Ph.D. in electroanalytical chemistry. The reason that cold temperature affects batteries is the Nernst equation, which simply states that as the temperature goes down, the VOLTAGE goes down. Typical currents from batteries are not limited by reaction rates.
Lower voltage means more current for the same power. An inverter takes DC to AC. 500 volts allows lighter wiring (less current for same power so smaller power) and a smaller motor for same torque or more torque from same size motor.
The top bar on the gauge clearly indicates more gallons than any other bar. Odd, but not a problem.
The last bar begins blinking when a fill-up takes about 7-8 gallons.
The real question is not how the gauge works, but how much gas really is in the tank. I read one post about driving the Prius until the ICE quit because of no gas. The fill-up required about 9 gallons.
I expect a reserve (when bar blinking) of 1-1.5 gals. There seems to be two gallons missing. Is this on purpose or is it a 10-gallon tank?
This question is significant because when driving long distances, gas stations can be very far apart. The gauge and tank capacity must be known quantities to be efficient in driving and still not run out of gas.
I hope someone has a definitive answer to this continuing question.
-EPA mileage vs the real world: EVERYONE who knows anything about the new Prius knows that the EPA estimates are mostly unachieveable in actual driving. Toyota says so; magazine testers say so; owners say so. Why does this continue to be such a big deal? No, you are not likely to get 50 mpg. For all of the seemingly endless variable reasons noted in this thread, your mileage will vary, and will vary on the lower end of the spectrum. Toyota has even asserted it would like to use a more realistic figure, but for a lot of legal reasons, feels constrained not to. Get over it.
-Having said that, it is very difficult for me to find a realistic alternative to this car because of the COMBINATION of low fuel consumption, low emissions, and high utility. It is this latter point that seems to get lost in all of the comparisons to Echo, Corolla, ad nauseum. Look, we owned a new-gen Corolla - it's a fine car, but it is NOT a hatchback with near-Camry room inside. Name me another car in this price range [or any price range] that combines 35mpg real world fuel consumption with MID-SIZE room and station wagon utility. Certainly not an Echo, and not the Matrix/Vibe either, though they come closer. The Mazda3 hatch is not bad, but again its interior room will not really compare. The new diesel Passat, if offered here in wagon form, will be the ONLY real competitor. Everything else is smaller inside, with nowhere near the usable people and cargo space. And the TDI Passat will be at the high end of the emissions spectrum, at least until the 2006 fuel regulations finally get most of the sulfur out of the crap we call diesel fuel in this country.
So IF you want a truly roomy car that achieves 30-40 mpg in the real world, I see only two choices: the Prius and the '04.5 Passat TDI. If you are a fanatic about emissions, then there may only be one choice. And I don't see how the difference between 30-35 mpg and 40-45 mpg changes this conclusion. What am I missing, besides the "outrage" of not getting what the EPA testing cycle spits out as a number?
To John in Minnesota, thanks for your shared knowledge. Your enthusiasm sometimes carries you away, but I'll take that in exchange for the wealth of real-world experience.
To Mid-Cow in particular, and some others in general: your point of view is well known. Repetition does not add to the level of knowledge.
Our moderator has had to step in a couple of times to calm this down. Every post does not automatically require, as the French would say, a "reposte". Taking my own advice, I'll now fade back into the background and go back in listen-only mode...
"The top bar on the gauge clearly indicates more gallons than any other bar. Odd, but not a problem."
I'm not sure what you mean here. All cars I have ever filled with gas have worked this way. It takes awhile before the arm leaves "full." Have you had different experiences?
The big picture: It's not linear (see post 2139) but the lack of linearity matters little. As for the issue of tank range/capacity, this may be an important factor for some. Frankly, I love spending less than 10 dollars to fill up!
Also, how have things progressed with your transaxle problem? Juliaj, if you are still following, what about yours? I am VERY interested since my VIN falls in between yours. So far, 3300 miles and no problems.
http://www.evworld.com/view.cfm?section=communique&newsid=492- 6
This is more than the Prius sold between 1997-2003. Its really a takeoff year.
Pretty soon, the extra cost needed to make a hybrid will come down drastically.
Mike, I apologize for the error on the site, we are correcting and should have it fixed by the end of the coming week...every P-Metric Standard Load tire of the 185/65-15 tire size has a Load Index of 86 and carrying capacity of 1168 lbs at 35 PSI. Every Eurometric Standard Load tire of the 185/65-15 tire size has a Load Index 88 and a carrying capacity of 1250 llbs at 36 psi. P-Metric tires' Max Load is calculated at 35 psi, Eurometric tires' Max Load is calculated at 36 psi.
Bottom any tire with a Load Index of 86 or higher has sufficient carrying capacity.
Now if you will excuse me, I'm going to go look out the patio door at our bird/squirrel feeder--I think I just saw some crows eating heartily there.
As far as traction control goes, I have VSC and this car is by far the best winter car that I've ever had for driving on snowy, icy roads. Much better handling on the ice than my 4WD RAV4.
> normal wear tires.
With the debut so close to the cold season, I was worried that word wouldn't get out and those desiring snow-tires would be up-a-creek.
Instead, the concern was put to rest rather quickly.
Cool.
JOHN
Judging by your VIN, the following may be of interest to you.
I was searching the toyota tech site (techinfo.toyota.com) today and found a new "Special Service Campaign" Number 40A. The specified glitch is as follows: If the ECU detects a system error, the master warning light (or hybrid system warning light) may light up. Apparently, the vehicle then enters a "fail-safe" mode from which, if restarted, a secondary error may occur and cause the vehicle transmission to "not operate smoothly."
Per Toyota, the owners of the affected vehicles will be notified in late January. Approximately 3500 2004 Prius' are involved. The affected vehicles are VDS KB20U with VIN range 40001009-40012242 and VDS KB22U 40001142-40012271. HOWEVER, "not all vehicles in the VIN ranges are involved in this SSC." The fix apparently takes 1 hour and, of course, is free.
Anyone get a letter yet?
1. Is it reasonable to expect 4 - 5 years and 140,000 miles out of this vehicle?
2. Do the Ni-metal hydride batteries loose a lot of power after say 100,000 miles? (that is the warranty on them)
3. Does anyone have experience with the Bluetooth hands free cell phone feature?
4. It appears that I can expect 40 - 45 mpg driving at 75 mph, worse in cold weather--is that a reasonable assumption?
5. Does the vehicle stability control with the tires that come with the Prius give people reasonably good traction in the snowy-icy conditions that we are blessed with in central Virginia?
Many thanks for any information from the participants of this board.
A few things I picked up talking with the sales rep: their January allocation dropped to 6 cars (usually 10) because the factory is ramping up production for the RX400h. Also, the January shipment was delayed because of delays in landing cars at the port. The package mix has changed from a couple of months ago. It was 55% package 3 and 25% package 9. Now it has flip-flopped, which will help people who ordered package 9s (but not me though!). The sales rep confirmed comments made on the Prius board about the reason for lack of a sunroof option: the roof design won't permit it. He offered that the reason the Classic Prius didn't offer a sunroof was because it would ruin the R-value of the roof, which had extra insulation due to the ICE-powered A/C. And he mentioned that people who order a Prius from his dealership right now are looking at August delivery--not quite into the 2005 model year, but getting close. Also, he told me that he has sold two Priuses with leather--dealer-added option of course. So it can be done. I didn't ask how much because I like cloth.
There's a huge demand on these cars and most likely none available just sitting on a lot somewhere. Put a deposit down, order a car, and wait like everyone else.
Goes to show you that money not only talks...it sings sweet melody.
Is the Prius what people are looking for now? Fuel economy, very little pollution and new technology? In a couple of years will it proliferate like the VW Beetle did? Or will the other automobile companies wake up and try to get on the bandwagon?
So, if you're willing to pay way over sticker and find a dealership willing to sell you their TRAC Prius, MAYBE you can buy one for cash now .... good luck!
Oh well, it was still better than my Classic's January average of 40.9 MPG over the previous 3 Winters. That was really impressive, but the 2004 is even better. And if you look at Lifetime data, the 2004 really shines. Both values are 45.4 MPG, but the 2004 average only includes Winter months. So once things (finally) warm up, you'll really be impressed.
JOHN
Mike
My current '94 Mercury Battleship is about to die or kill me in the bad weather.
Thinking about a FWD Vibe. Consumer Reports highly recommends, 5-speed gets 36 mpg on the highway (and I hear it's a TRUE 36), and best of all...I can get one anywhere right now for $5,000 less than the Prius.
Any reactions to this new train of thought? Anyone compare these two vehicles before?? I realize the PZEV dream would be smoke with a Pontiac...but am I really giving anything else (important) up in the deal?
Pontiac Vibe
Toyota Matrix
-juice
People seem to forget the fact that it is common to have a daily commute where some highway driving includes stop & slow conditions, build up caused by merging & bridges. Traditional vehicles perform horribly when they encounter that. FULL hybrids like Prius shine.
So the real-world data for traditional vehicles is grossly over-estimated, making them appear much more efficient than they really are sometimes. That means the payback on a hybrid is actually greater than thought.
Also note that a FULL hybrid will last much longer under those conditions too, since a lot of that driving type will be exclusively powered by electric propulsion. Unlike a traditional vehicle, which will run the engine 100 percent of the time. And worse, coolant gets very hot since air circulation is almost non-existent in stop & slow driving.
JOHN
backy - my wife drives an '02 zx5 and we both love it. she is too conventional to own two of the same models, otherwise that would be a top choice. btw, the non-financial aspects of the prius appeal to me MUCH more than the cost efficiencies (which is why MC and i don't see eye to eye!) ... but the "Need" for new wheels is quickly beginning to outweigh the sincere "Desire" to drive cutting edge green technology. Not to mention Toyota is doing a horrible PR/customer relations job on the backlog issue IMHO.
sandhog and john - i drive upwards of 25k miles a year (85% hwy) so your points are both well taken. the FULL hybrid system is appealing to me for the durability factor and for the compounded fuel savings. i'm not questioning the car here at all - i'm questioning the insanity of a 6+ plus month wait full of unmet dealer promises for someone who got in "early" relatively speaking.
is the Prius THAT much better?
From this limited experience I've come to believe that the lower mileage I get normally really is due to the type of driving we do most of the time. And as John points out, even an ordinary car would show a large loss of mileage in that circumstance - it's not something about the Prius that makes this happen!
Anyway, we still love the car, find it very zippy and comfortable, can haul our whole suburban Costco-type shopping, including bikes and computer equipment, etc. We're very happy with the purchase.
When all the dealers got their first car, I went out to look at it, there were many lookers. The assistant who gets the schedules of cars coming in said "Yours will be here Monday" It was. I paid MSRP in cash and am very happy. It pays to be a regular customer.
http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/2004-02-03-hybridmileage_x.ht- m
Here's my rebuttal:
I am well aware of the fact that even negative publicity is an excellent way to raise awareness. And when people research to find out was the facts actually are, they learn the truth.
My cold temperature average for the new Prius is the same as the warm & cold temperature average combined for my classic. And since it delivered a 50 MPG average last summer, even higher will be possible with the new one. I have nothing to fear about bad PR.
JOHN
I truly love the Prius. One thing to understand is that on the odd occasion when parts are needed, there may not any locally. I have never before needed to replace a rear windshield with defogger heating elements. Does anyone know if $709 is a routine price, or does that cost reflect the smaller Prius population?
In any event, I am extremely pleased to have it back!!!
I had to replace the windshield on my '99 Grand Caravan a couple of years ago. It has defroster elements in the lower few inches of the glass. It cost $1600 (paid by insurance, fortunately). It is a bigger piece of glass than the Prius' rear window, but comparing the two, the cost for the Prius' rear window doesn't seem that out of line.