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Toyota Prius

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Comments

  • john1701ajohn1701a Member Posts: 1,897
    Try reading my "industry" message, you obviously didn't.

    LCDs are highly profitable, yet it still took them 3 years to be able to make supply meet demand. Explain that!

    JOHN
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Well, Toyota IS adding production for the Prius, and is considering opening a line in the U.S. So the two-year wait may shrink pretty fast--especially when more hybrid choices become available this fall.

    As for the Fit--you can't buy one of those in the U.S. today at any price. So your choice today is wait for a Prius, wait for a Fit, or buy something else, e.g. a Matrix 5-speed has the room and utility of the Prius and will approach 40 mpg highway. And it costs a lot less than a Prius.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    I would also agree! I think the other realities to consider is the Toyota folks decided that a so called "successful launch" was all important! Of course you can only reverse engineer the process to take a guess at what successful WAS. I read in a few places that the 2004 production is 22,000. So at 22k units, the Prius is an unqualified hit. The next question is at what production levels are the next goals!!??

    To have to move even ONE Prius product at less than MSRP was probably the so called "kiss of death" To have ANY product availability other than a massive waiting list and some of the execs were probably expected by pass the kiss, to commit sepuku :(:)
  • midnightcowboymidnightcowboy Member Posts: 1,978
    Djasonw,

    Actually I don't know if the 1997s have had any battery issues or not. I don't have infroamtion on Priuses; I doubt if a consolidated compendium even exists. Those vocal for the Prius only like to report positive facts. And I don't know how many Prius owners particpate in Edmunds forums. All I was saying is that even the 1997 is only 7 years old, so there are any failures yet after 8 years.

    I am glad you like your car. Tell me the 3 things you like the best. Tell me 3 things you like the least. What would you change? If you had it to do over again would you make the same decision?

    I hope you and other Prius and other hybrid owners don't have any major battery problems.

    YMMV,

    MidCow

    So you think I need a 5-speed TDI I will consider it!
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    This may truly be an apples to oranges comparison but I have had OEM Toyota batteries (but made by Panasonic) have each lasted (5 batteries) 10 years. Since the average battery is projected to last 4 years, I consider this pretty good!? Or have other folks who have had Toyota Landcrusiers have the same experiences as I?
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Since you have decided NOT to buy a Prius, what is it about this board (that is only about the Prius) that intrigues you so much?

    BTW, do you think the Sienna is a profitable vehicle for Toyota? Let's assume it is. Then how can you explain the massive shortages of '04 Siennas? Since they are so profitable, Toyota should have made more in a heart-beat, right? Instead, they forced customers to wait and to pay MSRP or close to MSRP prices for Siennas. Was this an insiduous plot by Toyota--or maybe just a case of production not keeping up with demand because the new Sienna was a much more desirable vehicle than the previous-gen Sienna?
  • djasonwdjasonw Member Posts: 624
    Okay Midcow.. here goes.. first.. let's address your desires. A TDI 5 speed would be nice but it's not fast enough for your taste (almost on par with a Prius). If you can deal with that, then you're set. If you feel like waiting four years or so, see what the next gen Prius is like.

    Three features I like best: Smart Entry/Start, NAV, Stealth Mode...

    What I'd change:

    Better OEM tires (I changed mine)
    Provide EV Swich in the US- Nice to have when you just want to move the car a few feet and don't want to engage the ICE.
    One touch up/down on all four windows instead of just the driver's window.

    If I had to do it all over again, I'd buy it in a hearbeat. Absolutely NO regrets. I can sell mine today for $25k!!!
  • midnightcowboymidnightcowboy Member Posts: 1,978
    at the same time, your screen is temporarily locked and sometimes you miss what another person is posting.

    There is not an enqueue/dequeue locking feature to ensure you are always looking at the most current set of posts.

    Thee is a latent demand for Prius, If they were readily available I would stongly consider buying one in spite of it not being standard shift. I could probably get use to the CVT and I could probably get use to the power, although I would probably only be a 40 mpg person.

    What bothers me most about the Prius, is the hauty attitude of the sales people and their absolute lack of knowledge or incorrect knowledge about the Prius and hybrids.

    If batteries are in short supply, then that explains some of the production backlog. It seems other battery manufacturers would be clamoring to get Panasonics business.

    Have a great day!

    YMMV,

    MidCow
  • kalmikeykalmikey Member Posts: 17
    I understand the forces that can create slowdowns and shortfalls.

    I don't understand how Toyota can legally claim to sell a product they can't deliver on for, in some cases, two years.

    Yes, two years. That's what Twin Cities, MN dealers are currently claiming.

    That's insane.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    If the holdup is battery related what happens to the poor guy that has a bad cell? Do all the dealers keep spare cells? What is the shelf life of a NiMH battery without being charged, not good I'll bet?
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I think the need has been there for a long time. Until gas went over two bucks we ignored the problem and now there is a scramble for high mileage cars.
  • john1701ajohn1701a Member Posts: 1,897
    How is this any different from the delivery delays with other vehicles?

    PT Cruiser & MR2 both have experienced the same in the recent past.

    JOHN
  • djasonwdjasonw Member Posts: 624
    I don't even think they keep 'em on the shelf. If your battery is BAD, they have to get a replacement from Japan. It's interesting you mention shelf life. I had a Toshiba T3400 laptop I bought in 1994 and it has been in my attic for seven years. I plugged it in an it actually has a nice charge. It lasted 90 minutes before it died. I had forgot what WIN95 looked like. It was like a trip down memory lane.
  • djasonwdjasonw Member Posts: 624
    Try and get a hold of an SL500 from Mercedes. There are LOTS of cars that have those issues. Anyone that thinks the manufacturer is holding back is sadly mistaken. They're trying their best.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    I would agree, but at the same time the Toyota logistical chain is positively a juggernaut! While it is almost seamless to the customer, ie we don't see it, the logistical chain will move literally heaven and earth to get a prioritized part to where it is needed.

    I remember when my 1987 TLC was still under warranty (2000 units total importation to the USA) and either I was unhappy with a part or they discoved something wrong, the part had to come from Japan. So naturally hearing this at the dealer level, I was envisioning a 1 mo wait, etc. Not more than TOTAL 3 days, the vehicle went in for initial warranty, the part was ordered/received and put in and I was on my way.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    That was a NiCad I am sure. They are sent from the factory discharged. I am not sure how the NiMH batteries are shipped. Lead acid like a car battery needs to be kept charged to avoid damage.
  • usbseawolf2000usbseawolf2000 Member Posts: 759
    "Until last December, Toyota's allocation system gave Japan and the United States roughly the same number of Prius sedans."

    "Then Toyota tilted the system in favor of Japan. It raised the 2004 U.S. allocation of Prius cars to 47,000, up by 34 percent from the 35,000 level set in September. It nearly doubled the 2004 Japan allocation, from 36,000 to 70,000."

    "Toyota raised Prius output in April from 7,500 a month to 10,000 a month. It plans to build 130,000 this year, including 10,000 to be made on overtime and Saturdays."

    "Now that Japan's higher allocation has trimmed the waiting time in that country, Toyota may be ready to raise the U.S. allocation. But there are no guarantees."

    "Although the current allocations "are not written in stone," the July allocation could reflect product-cycle planning, says Toyota spokesman Paul Nolasco. That means Japan could continue to get a disproportionate share of Priuses while the car is seen as new and hot there."

    "In Japan, car sales often tumble once a car is a year old or even less. In the United States, sales usually don't fall dramatically as soon."

    Read the whole article: http://www.autoweek.com/cat_content.mv?port_code=autoweek&cat- _code=carnews&loc_code=index&content_code=07665061

    Dennis
  • kalmikeykalmikey Member Posts: 17
    I have never, ever waited more than one day for a car that I wanted to be ready for me to drive off the lot.

    I am not yet certain that I'm prepared to do so now.

    I'm certainly not prepared to put down any deposit money for the privilege of waiting two years for Toyota to perform a rectal capitectomy on themselves.
  • djasonwdjasonw Member Posts: 624
    No... metal hydride. DEF not CAD. Any idea why they don't use Lithium Ion? All my gadgets seem to have those types of batteries now.
  • djasonwdjasonw Member Posts: 624
    There are some great alternatives if you have rectal anxiety. I suggest one of the following which should give you excellent years of service:

    Kia Spectra- Cheap, lots of goodies for the price, not the best in the mileage department but respectable.

    Corolla- Great value, great mileage and a great price

    Civic- Outstanding reliability, excellent mileage and very good prices.
  • kalmikeykalmikey Member Posts: 17
    Actually, the irony here is that I'm not in any tremendous hurry. I have a car I like. I just want a car with significantly better mileage. The Prius has some of the best available mileage, best emissions control...well, y'all already know the mantra. I'm already a *fan* of this car, honestly.

    But I'm also not a patient person. I can't honestly forsee where I'm going to *be* in two years time, so I have trouble with the idea of waiting that long now that I'd started to lean Priusward. I also consider it to be borderline-fraud to claim to be selling a product which no-one can actually obtain in a reasonable amount of time, and that angers me a bit.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Very interesting. You notice they did not mention selling them anywhere except the US and Japan. I would think the Europeans would be screaming for them with $5 a gallon gas. Maybe they are just too set in their ways to try anything that new. One thread indicated that BMW was not going to even look into Hybrid technology.
  • jrct9454jrct9454 Member Posts: 2,363
    ...already have dozens of choices with excellent performance, good size, and fantastic fuel consumption...they're called "diesels".

    Seriously, I am a fan of this car, but there would not be waiting lists if everyone had the choices in this country that are available in the EU. We just got back from two weeks in the UK, hauling around 4 people and 150 lbs of luggage in a "mid-size" [that is, huge, by EU standards] Vauxhall/Opel Vectra 5-door 2liter turbo-diesel that averaged 35-40 mpg for the trip. And this is not even the latest technology available - all of the MB, BMW, VW, and Peugeot lines are top-to-bottom loaded with great diesel engines in every car they make, from the smallest to the largest. No one there thinks it's remarkable to be looking for good space, good pace, and good fuel consumption in one package.

    This Prius only seems miraculous in a nation that thinks it is a God-given right to get 12 mpg and complain about the price of motor fuel..."we rule"...duh...
  • john1701ajohn1701a Member Posts: 1,897
    > I would think the Europeans would be screaming for them

    They are.

    So are the Australians.

    But since we scream louder and have far more of a consumption & pollution problem, we have been the majority market for this phase of non-domestic rollout.

    Japan consumers are much, much, much more accepting of change. So there rollout schedule is quite different, which allows for the flexibility.

    JOHN
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    Perhaps you have hit on the real reason the majority of nations and peoples of those nations did not want to follow the USA into the last few wars! If our fuel rose to 2.00 plus dollars a gal, think what it does to the Europeans gallon of fuel? (yes I know it is sold in liters).

    If you care to share, what were the prices you paid and or observed for diesel and or unleaded regular and premium??

    If unleaded gas is 1.95 and diesel #2 is 1.59, your diesel 35-40 mpg is -$.0454285-.03975 per mile here, USA. My 48-51 mpg would yield $.033125-.0311764- per mile. A Prius at say 50 mpg would yield $ .039 per mile.
  • oldboyoldboy Member Posts: 59
    Thanks for letting me know how things turned out. I'm glad to hear that you got a good deal on a RAV 4, and that when you do get a Prius, it will be at MSRP. I know that some dealers are paying a premium for used Priuses, and then selling them higher to customers. But the price you said your dealer paid seemed unreasonably high. As for the Ford Escape Hybrid, prices start just below $27,000 and go up from there. From what I hear, the mileage is not that great either (as compared to other hybrids). They are going to be in short supply for awhile, because of a lack of battery packs; the same problem that is reducing Prius production.
  • djasonwdjasonw Member Posts: 624
    If history seves me right, diesel is more expensive than gas in the winter. At least in my neck of the woods it is. I currently pay $1.29 per gallon for my home. I'd have no problem using that supply if I had a diesel. Luckily I have a Prius that is getting near 50 in mixed driving. I'm tickled pink.
  • jrct9454jrct9454 Member Posts: 2,363
    We were paying 81 to 83 pence per liter for diesel. There is no special break for diesel in the UK, unlike most of the rest of the EU. At current exchange rates, that works out to just a bit over $5.65 per US gallon. Unleaded gasoline was priced between 81 and 84 pence a liter at the same stations, so no significant difference.

    Understand, there are literally dozens of choices of smaller 4-door hatchback diesels [VW Polo, Audi A2, Peugeot 2xx and 3xx, the new BMW 1-series, MB A-class] that easily exceed 40 miles per US gallon, and 50+ is not out of reach. All of these are slightly smaller inside than a Prius, but they all have bigger brothers in the form of the so-called MPVs [Renault Scenic , Opel Zafira, etc.] that have all the room and can still reach those fuel consumption figures.

    I read everything I can get my hands on when we are on our overseas trips, and I can assure you that there is no great demand for hybrid technology in the EU. Thus, I think Toyota is right in focusing on Japan and the US, neither of which has significant penetration of the market by state-of-the-art auto diesel engines.

    The marketplace, all things being equal, is usually semi-rational; it's easy to argue it's even semi-rational here, right up to the point where it seems ludicrous to complain about "high fuel prices" when 55% of the market is for trucks. Frankly, most Europeans think we are quite out of our minds, and so do I...
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    At 1.29 per gal and 50 mpg we are talking .0258 cents a mile! That is 34% cheaper than unleaded regular gas at 1.95! Glad to hear you are doing well with your Prius.

    Another thing is that you run your heating oil furnance what 24/7 during the 3-4 month winter season? app 2880 hrs? I bet your furnace doesnt even come close to the emissions abatement that I have or most any passenger car has on their diesel engine. I ran 26,000 miles this last year and used app 520 gal of #2 diesel fuel (heating oil, as most know differs only in the additives needed for the portability of passenger car fuel) Or I ran my TDI engine app 520 hrs? How much heating oil did you use last season or last year?
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    So at 5.65 per gal with 35-40 mpg you paided roughly .14125-.1614285 cents per mile!?

    At 1.59 per gal and 1.95 per gal of unleaded regular, I am more appreciative of paying .0318 cents per mile. Obviously Euro folks pay 3.55 x's more!!!
  • djasonwdjasonw Member Posts: 624
    I never ever gave much thought to what my house is doing to the environment until this discussion. I burn about 900 gallons during the year. The oil burner also creates my hot water. The funny thing is that virtually most of the homes on Long Island are heated by oil and you rarely see emissions. You really don't even smell it unless you're right near the burner. I have no clue how old the burner is, or what techniques are employed to make them more environmentally friendly. However, I did get a rechargable mower this season and it works great. I guess to do my part I'd convert to electric heat, but that's way too expensive.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Thank you for a good report of the EU. I think we are crazy for the 55% large trucks. I believe it is the manufacturers know they can push them here and they do. It is their high dollar vehicles. The government has always looked the other way with bigger PU trucks and their additional pollution. If they built a small PU with a high tech diesel, cleaned up our diesel fuel (ECD-1) I believe they would put the big trucks where they belong into the specialty needs department. If you are pulling a trailer or hauling big loads, they are needed. Big trucks sell because the midsize & compact trucks we are offered are not much more economical.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    I would also agree! However if you listen to the environmental types this is total and gross pollution that is being ignored! My own view is that in the big picture scale of things it is a bit like going to a sandy beach and bemoaning the loss of a few grains of sand!
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    From an eBay ad: now YOU TOO can bid to get on a waiting list to buy a Prius!

    Be a Smart Buyer!!

    Don't pay sticker price for a used Prius with 9,000 miles on it!

    Don't pay $3000 over MSRP for a new Prius!

    Don't pay $1500 for someone's place on a waiting list!

    These are all offers that currently are listed on eBay for Toyota's new 2004 Prius model. Sure it's a great car but you are buying one to save money, right? It doesn't make sense to purchase a Prius to save at the gas pump if you have to pay way too much to get one!

    Right now Rice Toyota in Greensboro, NC is taking orders for the 2005 model Prius. They are being sold at Toyota's Suggested Retail Price. You can order whatever color and option package you like. You get a new 2005 model. We don't make you purchase a paint protection package. We don't have a additional mark-up sticker because of market or demand conditions. You don't even have to pay $169 for floor mats ( unless you want to )...

    Well, at least they don't mark up the car or make you by the high-priced floor mats. The bid price is $1.00 and there are no bids yet. I don't expect there will be any either. I expect anyone interested in this offer will just contact the dealer directly. When you think about it, this is a pretty clever, inexpensive way for a dealer to advertise to the entire world.
  • djasonwdjasonw Member Posts: 624
    In some neighborhoods it is available but very expensive to convert. Now back to the Prius. Yes, my Prius is a technological wizard and I enjoy it very much. Whew... knew I had to get some content in there.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    See "Hybrid vs diesel" for a response to your first quote. In regards to the Prius, I think Toyota did its' homework in that it developed and fostered the environmental, techno-geek is cool image, etc. etc.! Ultimately it matters not a whit if it does help or not, but that enough of their target market BUY'S the product! As compared to a 12-14k Toyota Corolla, you have to take your hat off to them for doubling the cost of basic transportation while making an "environ, techno, status, image" statement!
  • midnightcowboymidnightcowboy Member Posts: 1,978
    >As compared to a 12-14k Toyota Corolla,
    >you have to take your hat off to them
    >for doubling the cost of basic transportation
    >while making an "environ, techno, status,
    >image" statement!

    I'd like to have a share of that marketing person's bonus!
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    As we are patting Toyota on the back for the hybrid technology. We should also be kicking them in the groin for building the worst polluters on the market, the Landcruiser/LX470. I was just comparing my wife's 1990 Lexus LS400 to the 2004 Lexus LS430. they have virtually the same EPA numbers. The EPA estimate for mileage is low as we get 19-20 in town and consistent 26 on the highway. No emissions improvement in 15 years is not a good record.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    Yes sir! Toyota diesels have been available WW for quite a while. My specific interest has been the turbo diesel Toyota Landcruiser, which I am told gets mid 20's.
  • john1701ajohn1701a Member Posts: 1,897
    So why don't you have a problem with Ford?

    Ford announced they will only offer 20,000 hybrids next year, even though they have roughly 30,000 interested buyers already. That's a rather significant backlog...

    Only picking on Toyota is not appropriate.

    JOHN
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Well that just irks me even more. We are so isolated by our regulators in this country. A diesel Landcruiser has to be less polluting than their gas version. Is it a modern diesel or an older design? They probably have a small diesel PU also. I hope I don't die of old age before I get an economical small PU truck...
  • azstanazstan Member Posts: 74
    Doesn't anyone talk about Prius here anymore?
  • midnightcowboymidnightcowboy Member Posts: 1,978
    After over 3,000 messages, just about everything has been said. There has been a lot of good previous discussion.

    YMMV,

    MidCow
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    A while back among others, I asked if folks were able to get a "basic" Prius. I was in awe of the utter silence in the "answer". So if one has to order the "basic" Prius what is the wait time? 6 days mo? 6 weeks? 1 year? 2 years? So if the majority of Prius hit the streets at 27k, doing an analysis of an unavailable model is disingenuous, don't you think?
  • john1701ajohn1701a Member Posts: 1,897
    > So if the majority of Prius hit the streets at 27k, doing an analysis of an unavailable model is disingenuous, don't you think?

    Not in the slightest!

    Being disingenuous is basing the purchase decision solely on factors existing today, rather than when the person will actually get the car.

    Remember, for years now Toyota has been proclaiming their worldwide hybrid production would be 300,000 units by (the end of) 2005. They are right on schedule toward meeting that goal... which was considered absurd at first. But a lot has changed over the past 9 months.

    Stop being short-sighted. Think long-term.

    JOHN
  • dmathews3dmathews3 Member Posts: 1,739
    only problem with the CC is that the company only goes back 60 days. So if you haven't protested it in the 60 days the transaction stands.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    "Stop being short-sighted. Think long-term."

    I am, that is why I am considering the Prius in the long term and not anytime soon! :)

    It just didn't cut it against the VW Jetta TDI. 17.6k and 19k tax and tip!

    Also if the regulators, supply and demand and the other market forces are successful in raising fuel prices, it will bring probably enough pressure to bear to start bringing more diesel vehicles to the USA market. On the hybrid vs diesel thread, there is a link to a diesel Toyota that gets 63 mpg! 15.2k to 22.5k US MSRP!!!! I am guessing 12.5k to 18.5k invoice pricing! Makes my wildly fuel efficient TDI at 50 mpg and the Prius at 50 mpg look like fuel guzzlers!! :)
  • midnightcowboymidnightcowboy Member Posts: 1,978
    Did you get the GL of GLs? Manual of Auto?
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    2003 VW Jetta TDI GL, 5 speed manual. It was bought the earlier part of 2003. It has been trouble free. I do 10k oil and filter change intervals and posts on TDI threads have indicated that 15,000 mile oil change intervals are conservative. I keep the 10,000 mile interval due to warranty compliance, but that will end in 18,000 miles! Its primary reason was for commuting but it is such a fuel miser (relatively) and the highway performance make it a distance trooper! It can literally get almost 25% across the USA before it NEEDS fuel.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Good point, that's why you want to tell the dealer not to run the card, just take the number. Why do they actually need your money on deposit for months, anyway? There is such a demand, if you decide you don't want the car they'll just sell it to the next person in line.
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