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Toyota Prius

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  • rpgolferrpgolfer Member Posts: 157
    Hi gang,
       Got my notice yesterday to get the diagnostic program software upgraded. Dealer took me in right away and it took about an hour and a half. Sounds like Toyota purchased some oversights in their original software. It it will help us down the road, then it's a good thing.
      Gas mileage - John1701a says, he uses the same gas station, same pump and same nozzle for accuracy. I use 2-3 different stations and usually a different pump. Sometimes I keep pumping it in, other times I'll add "one more bump" and move on. The truth is what you don't put in today, you'll add next time. It is best to average it out over a year.
    Thanks,
    Rich
  • john1701ajohn1701a Member Posts: 1,897
    1701-A results for this month:

    1,792 miles / 32.929 gallons = 54.4 MPG

    JOHN
  • beach15beach15 Member Posts: 1,305
    Our personal vehicle is a new '04 Chevy Suburban (about as anti-Prius as you can get) but I had the chance to drive a co-worker's '04 Prius today and loved it. Freaked me out a little at first (just couldn't get used to the sound of the gas engine going on and off and the really strange gear selector), but really enjoyed it after a few minutes.

    It felt extremely well built, quiet, smooth, and was suprisingly quick and braked like a sports car. This was one of the first ones to be built and shipped (ordered ver early) and has had no problems--said she's been getting 48-49 MPG all the time.

    Seriously considering one in a couple of years when I'll be in the car market myself, if that is, you'll even be able to get one two years after intro!
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    If you get your Prius in August, it will be a '04; '05 production doesn't start until the end of August and only 100 units are slated for August production. If you get one in September odds are it will be a '04 too (considering shipping time from the factory). But beyond that the '05s should start arriving en masse.

    My Toyota sales rep (who trains all the other reps at the dealership and seems to know his stuff) said there has been no official word on changes for '05, but he doesn't expect any major changes. Think about it: the car was just redesigned last year and has a huge waiting list; why go to the expense of making changes?
  • djasonwdjasonw Member Posts: 624
    Backy.. I think changes are planned way before the start of the new cycle. Manufactuers always do some type of tweaking. I wouldn't be surprised to see a few goodies added to an already fantastic car.
  • tempusvntempusvn Member Posts: 119
    The Prius has a whole bunch of features that are only available in certain markets.

    They can easily add a few features to each market without re-tooling anything (just change the build mix), and still have the 'new' factor for the new model year. I've been saying for a long time that they planned that in advance, and we'll see :)

    Possibilities for the US market that they could add without any re-design at all include:

    Rear Disc Brakes
    Daytime Running Lights
    DSP on the stereo
    VSC+ (available in Europe but not the US)
    Rear Fog Lamps
    Retracting Side Mirrors with integrated turn signals
    Side Markers
    Longer Spoiler
    Option of 16" wheels with Euro suspension
    Seat Height Adjustment

    None of those would impact production or require any re-tooling. They are already installing all of those features already.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Could be, but if there are changes in the plan Toyota isn't telling its dealers about them yet. So we'll have to wait and see what goodies are coming to entice yet more buyers to get on the waiting list. ;-)
  • djasonwdjasonw Member Posts: 624
    Wasn't sure what this was until tempusvn pointed this out. VERY COOL

    snip

    ECB2 and E-TRC are interconnected with Vehicle Stability Control Plus (VSC+), that works with the electric power steering system to add steering torque assistance to the conventional stability control system, helping the driver get the most out of the car's performance potential by avoiding stability-threatening situations.
  • tempusvntempusvn Member Posts: 119
    Oh, I forgot some:

    Backup Camera
    Park Assist
    EV Mode
  • SylviaSylvia Member Posts: 1,636
    In the spirit of keeping this about the Prius only, the smog check messages (about policy and not the vehicle) were moved to Hybrids: Exempt from smog tests? discussion.

    Note - there are some posts here with a title that suggests they are about smog checks, but they are not (they are about future Prius designs). I have left those messages in this discussion.
  • rpgolferrpgolfer Member Posts: 157
    erk5 (#289)
        I live in the San Francisco Bay Area and I bought my Prius at Hanlee's in Richmond. I've heard from several dealers that Berkeley Toyota is one of the biggest sellers in the Bay Area. Give them a call if you haven't found success yet and perhaps they can do something for you. You won't be disappointed whatever you do. (Make me an offer I can't refuse and maybe I'll sell you mine.....
    Good Luck!!
    Rich
  • footbagfootbag Member Posts: 3
    Numerous times now I have noticed that while stopped (usually on slight incline), the display shows that the electric engine is powering the wheels. At first I thought this was a problem. Turned out, the problem was me, I was not pushing the brake in quite far enough. I guess I'll have to brake more firmly from now on! Anyone else experience this?

    Andrew
    04 Seaside Pearl
    Plate # FOOTBAG
    Edmonton
  • djasonwdjasonw Member Posts: 624
    While travelling around on interstate 84 this weekend I noticed that there are certain official roads bisecting the interstate that occur every three miles or so enabling police to go eastbound or westbound. These tiny roads (sometimes the highway has a huge medium in between) appear on the NAV screen! Why are they important? That is where ALL the troopers set up their radar stations. Keeping an eye on the NAV, I was able to locate ALL the speed traps. Granted I am sure on my Garmin 2610 the detail probably exists as well. It's just so nice that it's built right into the car. This car keeps getting better and better!
  • djasonwdjasonw Member Posts: 624
    I am probably one of the very few people who bought this car for its great mileage. I immediately laughed when I finally saw the EPA numbers released late last summer. I knew that the best I would ever get would be around 48 average. On my trip this weekend, I decided to travel in the right lane at speeds between 68-71. When I got home I got a pleasant surprise as the MFD showed an average of 51.8. This is with FOUR people and around 80 pounds of luggage. Not bad!!! Prius... keeps getting better and better!!
  • djasonwdjasonw Member Posts: 624
    I never viewed my '04 Prius as an investment, however this weekend I had to laugh. I was communicating with a buyer on ebay who was bidding over 30k (tad over) for a new Prius. After a nice exchange of emails, this person offered me exactly what I paid for my car. Obviously I turned him down! Now.. imagine if I bought say a Ford Focus? Let's just say it would be worth half? LOL.... Prius... this car keeps amazing me!
  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    Toyota is scheduled to build 130,000 Priuses this year. Of those, 47,000 will be exported to the United States. Toyota is considering proposals to ship more units to the United States.

    No wonder there is a waiting list. Toyota sold 45,375 Camry in the month of June alone.
  • djasonwdjasonw Member Posts: 624
    Probably will take two years to catch up! Hopefully gas prices will keep coming down and people will come to their senses. I don't want to see myself coming and going.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Better sell yours to the guy with $30k burning a hole in his pocket. Then buy a new one when they catch up with the demand...
  • djasonwdjasonw Member Posts: 624
    Not a chance. Then what shall I drive?? Besides... I am one of the few people that doesn't want to take advantage of the situation. Hard to imagine so many suckers want to part with 30k!!!
  • azstanazstan Member Posts: 74
    If someone offers $30,000 for a "pre-owned" 2004 Prius...I smell a rat!
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    You are too honest! I think it is the Fad Factor. Has nothing to do with emission control or gas prices. Just people wanting something they cannot have instantly. I'm sure Toyota will ramp up production if it is a profitable vehicle and catch up with demand within a year.
  • midnightcowboymidnightcowboy Member Posts: 1,978
    Gargrice,

    You said the key phrase "... if it is profitable ..."

    Right now, the Prius appears to be a loss leader to introduce the HSD technlogy, otherwise Toyota 's supposed ram-up would have been a larger, quicker ramp-up.

    There is still a question as to whether the "Prius" is making a profit now or if it ever will. However, the used Prius eBay business appears profitable.

    YMMV,

    MidCow
  • djasonwdjasonw Member Posts: 624
    The only way they can make it profitable is to sell MORE units, not less. The statement you made, makes no sense at all. They are NOT holding back production to minimize losses. They simply are overwhelmed by the demand. Don't forget, they can only push their suppliers so far.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    grk701 "2005 Hybrid Toyota Highlander" Jul 6, 2004 2:53pm
  • midnightcowboymidnightcowboy Member Posts: 1,978
    djasonw,

    If they are trying to recover start-up, research and developments costs then you are correct. These are sunk costs.

    However, if each unit is a loss, in other word no net profit, then the more you sell the more you lose. It can never be profitable.

    Total profit = unit Profit* number of units - sunk cost.

    To simply even more take a hypothetical example that the actual cost to produce each Prius averages $30,000 and the average sales price is $25,000. Then you have a loss of $5,000 for each unit sold.

    Now more realistically, let's say the sunk cost is 200 million $200,000,000 and the current unit profit is only $200.

    Profix = $200* Q -$200,000,000.

    So they becomne profitable at 1 million units. Not a lot of incentive to sell.

    Not let's say Toyota is working on increasing the profit to $2,000 per car through improved quality control, more efficinet production of HSD parts and better volume battery suppliers.

    then the formula becomes

    Profit = $2000 * Q -$200,000,000

    Or it becomes profitable after 100,000 cars are sold.

    ================
    Bottom line, If the Prius is not profitable or only marginally profitable, it doesn't make sense to increase production unit ( IFF the unit production profit can be increased).

    YMMV,

    MidCow
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    It's a good bet the per-unit profit (not including R&D) on the Prius II is more than $200 per car. That hypothesis is based on the fact that the Classic Prius achieved profitability by the end of its model run. Another indication that the Prius II is profitable for Toyota (again before R&D costs are factored in) is the fact they are going to hold up production of the Highlander hybrid to make more Priuses, to meet pent-up demand. If the Prius were not profitable, why would Toyota do that? To borrow a phrase, they would simply declare the "beta test" over and start throwing their resources into the more profitable SUVs and larger cars like the Camry hybrid.
  • john1701ajohn1701a Member Posts: 1,897
    A piece of metal in one of my OEM tires this weekend got me thinking. I decided to upgrade rather than just replace that standard tire with a new standard tire.

    Now I'm using MICHELIN HYDROEDGE tires on my 2004 Prius. So hopefully, I'll have lots of data available to share once others are ready for replacement.

    It rained today, so I got to try them out on water. They worked really well. Snow is a loooooong way away still, so don't ask.

    MPG will definitely take some kind of hit, since I'm running at 35 PSI now (instead of 44 PSI). But I have no idea whatsoever how much. With the temperature 20 degrees below normal, MPG is down anyway. Plus, there's break-in for the tires themselves. With my 460 treadwear tires, it took around 1,000 miles. So with these having a 760 treadwear rating, does that mean more or less?

    I got the tires for $113.35 each, including labor, a valve-stem, road-hazard coverage, and disposal of the old tire. They have an 85,000 mile warranty. Tread-depth: 11/32, Traction: A, Temperature: B, Treadwear: 760, Max-PSI: 35.

    More on the new tires later.

    JOHN
  • djasonwdjasonw Member Posts: 624
    John... I've read good things about that tire and I actually almost bought that one. The thing that turned me off was the harsh ride comments on tirerack. I heard they really shine in the rain. Not sure how they'll do in the snow. Keep us posted as I'm definitely interested.
  • john1701ajohn1701a Member Posts: 1,897
    I'm not sure how those posts defined "harsh". But the ride is clearly LESS harsh with these at 35 PSI than the other tires were at 44 PSI.

    Odds are, those comments were made by people with squishy tires, which provides a soft & quiet ride. Underinflation is a dangerous problem that is far too common. Even at 30 PSI, most tires nowadays appear to hold the weight well. But in reality, the tires have too much give at that point... an invitation for an accident.

    By the way, that price I mentioned included tax too.

    JOHN
  • djasonwdjasonw Member Posts: 624
    ...and how is the tire noise at highway speed compared to the Goodyear Integrities?
  • midnightcowboymidnightcowboy Member Posts: 1,978
    WOW the OEM tires were replaced after only 15,622 miles because ONE of FOUR tires had a piece of metal in it. Why not just replace the one tire.

    I had heard that the Prius I was hard on tires because of the load rating. It also appears that the Prius II is equally hard on tires.

    In reference to #3503 and #3506, John you yourself have said that the Prius II is not profitable yet. Did you mean unit profit or bottom line recovery of the HSD development costs?

    YMMV,

    MidCow

    Brigestone Potenza RE040 215/45-17
  • john1701ajohn1701a Member Posts: 1,897
    > Why not just replace the one tire.

    Read the title.

    These new tires clearly hold the road better, in both wet & dry conditions. And they last twice as long... which that alone covers the cost.

    > It also appears that the Prius II is equally hard on tires.

    How in the world can you jump to that conclusion? It is totally, completely false... nothing but an attempt to create a misconception.

    The classic Prius had tires with a treadwear rating of 160. The 2004 tires have a treadwear rating of 460 and the surface area is greater. That's a huge improvement.

    Of course, some classic owners (like me) just upgraded to better tires anyway. And that ended the rapid wear problem immediately.

    JOHN
  • djasonwdjasonw Member Posts: 624
    I upgraded my tires because I didn't like the OEM tires. I had them once before on a RX300 and they were horrible. If you read the tirerack reviews, no one really likes them. My replacement tires have over 12,000 miles with no signs of wear. I love this car.
  • midnightcowboymidnightcowboy Member Posts: 1,978
    Look back at post #2102 by John1701A. He changed to GoodYear Integrity on his Prius I and recommneded it to Toyota and was please that they put it on the Prius II as OEM.

    to quote:

    "By the way, that's another "amazing coincidence" for Toyota. They just happened to choose the same type of Goodyear rubber for the 2004 that I bought and promoted as an alternate for the classic...

    JOHN"

    john1701a Jan 6, 2004 9:36pm!keywords=allin:msgtext limit:.ef169e3 goodyear

    Does that mean your recommendation has changed now to the Michelin Hydroedge long wear 760 A B ?

    YMMV,

    MidCow
  • john1701ajohn1701a Member Posts: 1,897
    > He changed to GoodYear Integrity on his (classic) Prius

    WRONG!

    I changed to Goodyear ALLEGRA tires.

    That are not the same.

    It turns out that they are more different from the Integrity tires than the specifications initially indicate. And I photos to help support that too, besides the 16,000 miles of driving comparison.

    Remember, just because the rubber is a similar compound, that does not mean it will react the same way when a different tread-pattern is used.

    JOHN
  • midnightcowboymidnightcowboy Member Posts: 1,978
    Whatever, I was just stating what you said back in Janaury. If you want to dispute you own statments then have at it.

    If you changed to Goodyear tires on your classic Prius, Prius I

    And if Toyota used the same type of rubber that you had bought.

    One would assume that when you said same type you were referring to the GoodYear Integrity rather than the Goodyear Allegra.

    Anyway, being somewhat conservative minded myself, I would have bought one tire and upgraded when all the tires were worn. Wouldn't that also be the green Prius approach. Do you realize how much pollution making just one tire, let along four creates??

    telle est la vie,

    MidCow
  • jrct9454jrct9454 Member Posts: 2,363
    ...does every post require a response, or a challenge? Why does this board, which can be so informative and helpful at times, have to periodically turn into this contest of wills?

    Like most here, I value John's insights and contributions, and wonder why each of his posts seems to require a response from you, usually a negative one? Am I the only one who feels this way?
  • bamacarbamacar Member Posts: 749
    "Twice as long"

    The treadwear ratings are only accurately comparable between tires of the same brand per UTQG. So a 760-Michelin versus a 460-Goodyear is not numerically double, nor is comparable between the two different brands. Many complain about the characteristics for the Integritys, but most get over 60,000 miles wear. I doubt the Michelins will get on average 120,000 miles.

    Given also that the Goodyears are $51 versus $97 on Tirerack, I don't think economics vs. wear would make much sense. The handling, wet weather capabilities, and mileage may be a far different story.
  • djasonwdjasonw Member Posts: 624
    Midcow is really not a troll. He just likes to bait John. I'd call midcow a strong minded Texan with a heart of Prius. I actually think he adores the car but just can't say it in public. Msg to John:

    I salute you and all your efforts to the Prius community. I believe you make every effort to make sure you convey accurate information. Keep up the great work!!
  • tfilibertitfiliberti Member Posts: 21
    Just came across a used 2004 Prius at Wappinger Falls Toyota in New York State, 18k miles ,
    dual airbags only option mentioned....
    $29,777 people I show this to think it's a misprint... I DOUBT IT !!!! LOL
    Ordered mine in Nov' 03 still waiting :-(
    #5 on the list so I figure in the fall...Dealers in this area ,Hudson Valley, already stopped taking new orders .
  • usbseawolf2000usbseawolf2000 Member Posts: 759
    I prefer to use good but inexpensive tires because tires perform horrible near at the end of the tread. Increase in road noise, degrading grip, etc... Changing out with another set of inexpensive tire would give me another brand new performance. Installation and alignment here is only $15 for all 4 so, it is still worth it.

    Dennis
  • djasonwdjasonw Member Posts: 624
    WOW... I feel for you. I wonder if that deal will get his price? I got mine at a rural PA dealer on Nov 8th. I placed myself on the list last July. Best thing I ever did. Was wondering why you're getting rid of your Jetta. Problems?
  • rpgolferrpgolfer Member Posts: 157
    Hi gang,
       I have benefitted from john1701a's knowledge and experience too many times to subject him to a microscope. There's a difference between "been there/done that" and "it should be like this".
    Thanks,
    Rich
  • rfruthrfruth Member Posts: 630
    I like all the Prius experience(s) and knowledge that 1701a provides, it's a shame that everything he says is nit picked to death - I have to wonder what he might share if not under a microscope all the time, your web site is great, thanks John.
  • john1701ajohn1701a Member Posts: 1,897
    Yes, they should last twice as long (or so). Close is more than good enough anyway, considering the handling benefit. The Integrity tires are warrantied for 50,000 miles. But actual observation (tread depth remaining), put them at 40'ish for real-world life. The Hydroedge tires are warrantied for 85,000 miles. I'll have data available by the time others actually need it.

    And guess what, I was wrong! (How about that?) Some of the Hydroedge sizes, including mine, provide support for a maximum PSI of 44. So it looks like I might not be taking any MPG penalty at all. We'll see.

    JOHN
  • xcelxcel Member Posts: 1,025
    Hi John1701a:

    ___Let me know about your real world mileage experiences with the Hydroedge’s on your Prius II also. The Integrity’s on the Corolla are at 63,000 and probably only have another 5,000 or so to go. With that, I am actively looking for another reasonable priced LRR tire(s) as replacements.

    ___Good Luck

    ___Wayne R. Gerdes
  • john1701ajohn1701a Member Posts: 1,897
    My driving is quite a mixture of city, suburb, and highway. So I'm not sure how that would apply to your highway-cruising-only use. But you never know what we'll find.

    I'll share discoveries as I make them.

    JOHN
  • little_pogilittle_pogi Member Posts: 149
    John, I would assumed you used the same tire size. Some postings from another owner earlier this year recomended changing to a 195/60R15 to improve handling and minimize the floating effect experience by most 04 Prius drivers. Are you experiencing any floating effect on the hydroedge tires? How about road noise while running in dry pavement?
  • eyeman2eyeman2 Member Posts: 5
    Thanks for the reset-maintenance light info. Tell me how to eliminate the annoying reverse-gear beep? Thanks again!
  • john1701ajohn1701a Member Posts: 1,897
    I'm not sure what "floating effect" you are referring too. Got details?

    And switching to a wider tire would be the opposite of what I'd recommend. Having so much experience with snow driving, I know well that thinner tires dig better. In other words, you want as much weight as possible on the contact patch.

    Whatever the case, the new tires (same size) handle better. I can take corners even harder now.

    JOHN
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