Toyota Prius

larsb · May 2005

quote wwest-"That's why, basically, the Prius has lower highway cruise fuel economy than a comparable and comparably equipped non-hybrid vehicle."-end quote

I think you may have misspoken - did you mean to say "that's WHY the Prius DOES GET better highway MPG than comparable non-hybrids?"

Because no other midsize car on the road (which is where the Prius is classified) can get even as much as 40 MPG on the hwy, which is the level to which a Prius MIGHT dip if driven 80 MPH for a whole tank.

The Echo is not a comparable car in size or weight.

For example my 2004 Honda Civic Hybrid, last December, made a fully loaded (driver, two kids under age 10, fully packed trunk and passenger seat, probably about 400 pounds of people and cargo) trip from Phoenix to El Paso, and I averaged about 70 MPH on the trip, and I achieved 52.75 MPG for that run, in a car rated at 51 MPG Hwy.

So, if the question is "can Hybrids out-MPG other small cars in hwy travel?" then the answer in my experience is ABSOLUTELY they can.

mamatoad · May 2005

Point well taken Ken. I guess I feel so 'burned' by Toyota that I just have to vent somehow.

Shopping around is always a good idea between dealerships of the same type auto, but for those of us in more rural settings, many times what you see is what you get unless you are willing to travel quite a distance. Yes, I could've traveled that distance but then I would likely come back to the local dealership for any reasonable service (time wise) and I sure didn't want to do that.

However all's well that ends well. My car shopping experience has ended as I did eventually purchase a new car (obviously of a different brand) and I am very satisfied with it. Price was about the same too but obviously, the mileage will never match up in any sense of the word.

I know Toyota has no control over their dealerships, but in this case I sure wish they did.

This country is in need of more of this type (or some other type of fuel efficient vehicle) very soon. When it does perhaps those people out there who were dusted by their Toyota dealerships will think twice about returning.

aguy1 · May 2005

I have a 2002 model and I have just over 70,000 miles.The car is going well, I follow the maint and want to know what other owners are finding when the miles are high. Should I have a concern?
As an added point I did talk to a dealer about a new hybrid but he was only willing to offer me $8000.0 because of the high miles?
interested to have any feed back
Thanks

Kirstie_H · May 2005

Hi aguy1,
This is the pricing/purchasing discussion, so you'll get much better feedback in our Toyota Prius Owners: Care & Maintenance discussion. Just click on my link to get there.

kirstie_h
Roving Host
Host, Future Vehicles & Smart Shopper discussions

gagrice · May 2005

he was only willing to offer me $8000.0 because of the high miles?

Welcome to the forum. I think you will be far ahead to sell it yourself. If they give you $8k they will put it on the lot at $12k. Provided everything is in good working order you should get a good price for it. According to Edmund's that car in Outstanding condition should get $13k in trade and over $15k sold outright. Print out the Edmund's used car valuation and take it with you to the dealer. May not do any good, but worth a try.

sinepman · May 2005

Good advice. I have never traded a car in to a dealer because that is where they make most of their money. Many people don't realize that the margins on used cars at new car dealers are MUCH better than new. Dealers love trades because they know they can screw you even more.

tomslyck · May 2005

I sympathize with you. I was on a waiting list (having deposited $500) for about 6 months before my local Toyota dealer informed me that he was adding $2,000 "market value" to the Hybrid Highlander. I don't have a problem with the dealer charging whatever he wants. (Or offering less on the trade-in, if that's how he wants to make his profit.) I just resent the time wasted when I could have shopped around a little.

As much as I was upset with my dealer, I didn't blame Toyota. My local Ford dealer added $5,000 to the new Thunderbirds when they first came out a few years ago. Any dealer with a hot new model will do the same thing. It's supply and demand - Economics 101.

In my case, Los Angeles has lots of Toyota dealers, so I found another one that was willing to put in writing that he wouldn't add anything to the MSRP. But it could be two or three more months before I get the car. The best part is that it's the local dealer's biggest competitor (and I found him through Edmunds).

I don't mind driving a little to pick it up. I would draw the line at overnight trips, but I don't make $2,000/day so a Saturday spent on the road is manageable. I'm sure I'll go back to the local guy for my warranty work. I'll just get a quote in writing first.

As for the trade in, I don't mind selling it myself.

ohmygosh · May 2005

I am in the market for a new Prius. Can anyone give me feedback as to what can be negotiated off the sticker price ?

falconone · May 2005

Probably zero, but do shop around. I bet if you're diligent you can find plenty of dealers willing to sell at less than MSRP. If you're in CA, it is very doubtful. That market eats up hybrids like I eat pancakes at IHOP!!!

backy · May 2005

If you are willing to wait awhile, you might be able to get a discount. When I ordered a Prius in late 2003, the dealer offered a $500 flat discount off MSRP on every Prius. They were one of these "no-haggle" dealerships. So you might look around for one of those. A second dealer in my area was matching the offer, for awhile. You could use a discount offer from a dealer that's a bit of a drive from you as leverage with a more convenient dealer.

falconone · May 2005

That is a good weekend to shop and it is at the end of the month. Do an email blast and deal with the internet manager. You'll be surprised and get a good deal if you work at it.

gscooter · May 2005

Guess I should feel very lucky. We were shopping for a 'new' car and were about to buy a 01 Avalon until I stopped buy a Toyota dealer and saw a bunch of new Prius sitting on the lot. I figured they all had buyers waiting but at the urging of my best friend we asked if they had any available.

YES ! At least 3 or 4 were up for grabs. (Wife and I had already had the discussion and agreed that we didn't want to wait on some endless list.) So I call the wife and confirm that she was good to go if we could find a red one... As luck would have it there was a red one available with package #2. Then being greedy and goaded again by my friend I asked about a discount. Yep $350.00

Just to be sure I drove home called USAA and talked to their buyers negotiation service. I was told that I was already about $2300.00 ahead of most of their Prius buying customers. So.... Needlesst to say I went back to the dealership that night and bought the car.

PS Had leather interior installed for $1024.00 and it looks and feels as good as the "factory" leather interior.

SO... Yes once in a while it pays to be lucky and ask for the impossible.

jbb1 · May 2005

First-time poster here. Thought I'd share my experience, for what it's worth.

Background:
I have an Accord, 1988, with 182,000 miles on it. Don't laugh; I literally love this car and it runs like a champ. I bought it in excellent condition when it was 2 years old and have maintained it using the same shop since 1990. It has never broken down or given me the slightest problem. The paint and interior are still nice but, for a number of reasons, I thought it was time to consider a newer car.

I liked the idea of Hybrid technology and decided to look into it. Coincidentally ran into an old friend who had purchased a Prius a year or two ago. So I considered his experiences, researched various hybrid-related topics on the Internet, and last week spent a lot of time browsing the Edmunds boards, which offered owner's stories as well as a wealth of opinionated detractors/proponents of the technology.

Buying experience:
Bought a 2005 Prius this weekend. Called AAA for discount purchasing reference. (Also tried COSTCO but they didn't offer a buying service for Prius because of high demand.) AAA referred me to an area dealer, supposedly with $500 off MSRP. Dealer had two Reds when I walked in. I test drove one but didn't want Red. He found a Silver (with a couple of accessories I didn't want but was just 20 or 30 bucks more) in a nearby town and had it driven up the next day. Very good feelings about my salesman.

May have paid too much, being such an inexperienced car buyer -- but I have my vehicle and wanted to let folks know that it did not take weeks or months; rather, it was hours.

Price paid:
Cost out the door: $23,688

including, as itemized on bill of sale:
Freight: $540
Package 2: $920
Wheel locks: $59
Preferred accessory pkg.: $262
Dealer processing charge: $100
State tax: $1117
Computerized dealer titling: $20
License, title, registration fee: $195

I financed through my credit union. 60 mos. at 3.99%

I hope this information helps someone in some positive way. I'll have more to post in the future about the car itself. Thank you to all the people who have posted their experiences and opinions about hybrids in general and Prius in particular. Very helpful.

JBB1

gscooter · May 2005

Congratulations - Nice to hear others with similar experiences. Timing is important and so is attitude.

On cars like the Prius and other "hot list" cars finding a deal can be virtually impossible. Sounds like you got pretty much what you wanted and at a reasonable price. Sometimes waiting has costs and sometimes it has benefits.

We had a MINI Cooper before we bought the Prius - there is really no comparing the two except to say that both are still 'hot list' cars that sell at or above sticker price more often than not so any discount on such cars is a plus. In our case the discount essentially equalled their "processing fee."

Good luck with the new car.

solar_dad · May 2005

Question - Since the A/C compressor is not driven by the engine, why does using it have an effect on gas mileage? Is it because the resulting battery drain has to be recharged with the ICE?

Second, is this still the case even at highway speeds when the ICE is running all the time anyway? Would the A/C still cut down on mileage?

Finally, what's worse for mileage at highway speeds - windows closed with the A/C running or windows open (bad aerodynamics) and A/C off?

Thanks. I've had my car for just over a week and it's been great!
Mike

sinepman · May 2005

Since the A/C is electric is takes energy away from the traction battery which would deliver thrust. Hence the engine would have to come on to recharge the battery. Just a theory though. If someone with more knowledge could chime in?

pjyoung · May 2005

Just read in a locked thread from a Poster with this question:

I've placed an order for a Prius with Package 4 (AM) at a local dealer. I only buy a new car every 12 - 15 years, and try to get one with safety equipment I think would be valuable in the long term. You hear that VSC is of most value on high center of gravity vehicles like SUVs. To what extent would VSC be useful on a Prius? I do view the HID headlights which also come on the package 4 as a negative (very expensive to replace if stolen or broken, and I'd guess the bulbs are also very pricy), so if VSC doesn't help the emergency handling of a Prius very much, I'd just change my order to the less expensive Package 3. Advice/opinions on this would be welcome.

I've got a package 4 and live in Kansas. I found VSC to be VERY useful on the Prius - especially on snowy/sloppy conditions. The chime sounded and the light came on indicating that VSC was active, but the car was rock steady. I've never had to use it in "emergency handling", but the beauty of it was that it warned me that there was a problem BEFORE it became an emergency. IMHO, VSC is well worth the money in ANY vehicle.

prius · May 2005

Could you tell me what state you are in? I am waiting for a red Prius, my dealership said it would be sometime in August. The cost out the door will be $21,067, that is with no option package plus freight and license.

:shades:

jbb1 · May 2005

I'm in Annapolis, MD. Dealer is Russel Toyota in Catonsville, MD. They got the Silver car from a dealer in Alexandria, VA. Still had the one of the Reds when I left Saturday evening. (It had a Package 2).

Let me know if you have any specific questions and I'll be glad to try and answer them. Bear in mind that I have bought only one car in 15 years -- so I won't have "expert" advice about the purchase process -- but while the transaction is still fresh in my mind, I'll try.

(I have however started to form some opinions about the car itself. I'll be posting those on the appropriate boards in the next few days in case anyone is interested in a new owner's impressions.)

Signing off now; I'll check back tonight or tomorrow a.m. Good luck.

JBB1

jaym2 · May 2005

I am considering buying a Prius. I currently have a Camry getting 29 mpg. My mpg is very good since much of my driving is on the highway during non peak hours. I have been told that the Prius has great mileage on city and side roads since it uses the battery much of the time. But the highway mpg is not so great since the engine must be running to maintain highway speed.

Can anyone tell me their experiences with the Prius on the highway ? What kind of mpg can I expect ?

Thanks

arizonamtns · May 2005

Have done a little reading on the VSC, and similar systems, and the consensus is that you are as much as 60% safer with VSC than without it That is a BIG NUMBER Read SaferCar.gov data and look at the numbers for yourself Also read what Consumer Reports has to say This is a MUST have

stevedebi · May 2005

" I've placed an order for a Prius with Package 4 (AM) at a local dealer. I only buy a new car every 12 - 15 years"

I would think twice, there are a lot of unknowns about long term maintenance on the Prius due to the added components. And unlike the Civic Hybrid, it won't run without the electric components. Many people shake off these discussions with "I plan to sell it before 8 years / 150K miles anyway". People who have taken the Prius in for maintenance to Toyota (and some of the components can only be fixed by Toyota) have gotten a severe sticker shock. Many of these stories concern the first generation Prius; the 2004 and later models haven't yet put in the miles to have reached a problem stage.

Just my two cents, but if you go with the car, be prepared to become flexible on your "long term ownership" if maintenance becomes an issue. At present it is an unknown, and will remain an unknown until sufficient time goes by. If you want to be part of that first wave, by all means, feel free. But be aware of the risks.

Hopefully it won't come up, but this vehicle is very advanced and has a lot of extra components not found in ICE only counterparts.

falconone · May 2005

I think that advice should be given to most cars these days. My friend just test drove an Infiniti M35x. That car is MUCH more complex than the Prius. I don't think any cars today can give suck long service unless it is very, very simple. You're probably better off with a standard Civic or even a Corolla.

stevedebi · May 2005

Hmm, that car has a CVT, right? I think it is pretty complex... But a Camry or ICE Accord is not so difficult.

vmccaul · May 2005

Depending on your speed, ambient temperatures, and conditions, you should get about 45-50mpg on the highway. Take a look on the section about mpg, or look around on the internet. There are lots of discussions about mileage, and some do much better than 50mpg. But 45-50mpg at highway speeds of 65-75 has been my experience so far.

(disclaimer)Your mileage may vary

.

railroadjames · May 2005

I'd like to say that your approximation on fuel economy is right on. The only thing I care to add is that MPG's vary by driving habits more than any other thing. How much? Well I'd say.....20% variation seems about right.
Keep the secondary screen up to watch your mpg's. It is a much better info for data. Enjoy the hybrid as we do.
Railroadjames(Prius will Free-Us)

bik · May 2005

I just bought my Prius on Friday(May - 22nd)...On a normal day, it gives me 42 - 44 mpg mileage. The price was MSRP...not a penny less.

Bik

bik · May 2005

I just bought my Prius on Friday(May - 22nd)...On a normal day, it gives me 42 - 44 mpg mileage. The price was MSRP...not a penny less.

Bik

bik · May 2005

I just bought my Prius on Friday(May - 22nd)...On a normal day, it gives me 42 - 44 mpg mileage. The price was MSRP...not a penny less.

Bik

bik · May 2005

I just bought my Prius on Friday(May - 22nd)...On a normal day, it gives me 42 - 44 mpg mileage. The price was MSRP...not a penny less.

Bik

gscooter · May 2005

We bought ours from Bill Page Toyota in Alexandria Virginia 350.00 idscount no wait (at that time).

Sylvia · May 2005

A reporter is hoping to talk with Southern California residents who own a first- generation Toyota Prius, or who upgraded from a first-generation Toyota Prius to a newer one.

Please respond to jfallon@edmunds.com with your daytime contact info by 12pm Friday, May 27, 2005.

Thanks,
Jeannine Fallon
Corporate Communications
Edmunds.com

Sylvia · May 2005

A reporter is hoping to talk with Southern California residents who own a first- generation Toyota Prius, or who upgraded from a first-generation Toyota Prius to a newer one.

Please respond to jfallon@edmunds.com with your daytime contact info by 12pm Friday, May 27, 2005.

Thanks,
Jeannine Fallon
Corporate Communications
Edmunds.com

pjyoung · May 2005

**And unlike the Civic Hybrid, it won't run without the electric components.**

On the other hand, the Civic won't run without the ICE - when you are out of gas, you are truly out of gas,,,The Prius will at least "limp" you to a gas station.

As far as the "unknowns" - VSC is really an advanced use of ABS which has been around quite some time. I'll tend to put my faith in a company that builds cars to last.

sinepman · May 2005

VSC has a yaw sensor which senses when the vehicle is going in its intended path based on steering agle and other parameters. It will brake invividual wheels as the case may be, to keep the vehicle on its intended patch and under control. I would not own a vehice with out. Hard to believe that Honda has not put it in some of its less expensive vehicles Toyota even offers it in the Corolla!

stevedebi · May 2005

"On the other hand, the Civic won't run without the ICE - when you are out of gas, you are truly out of gas,,,The Prius will at least "limp" you to a gas station."

Granted, if the gas station is only 2 miles away . Not much of an advantage, IMHO. Also, If you run any car out of gas today, you are asking for trouble... no telling what kind of stuff lurks at the bottom of the gas tank. Fuel injector cleaning, anyone?

However, the HCH will run indefinitely without the electric motors - rather more than 2 miles, I think.

stevedebi · May 2005

"Hard to believe that Honda has not put it in some of its less expensive vehicles Toyota even offers it in the Corolla!"

Honda has stated that all it's cars will have ABS, EBD, side air bags, and VSA by 2006 model years (if I recall correctly - may be 2007). Has Toyota made this statement?

backy · May 2005

Actually, Honda hasn't made that statement either... at least not regarding VSA. At least Toyota has VSA available today on the Prius, and other cars.

http://www.hondanews.com/CatID1003?mid=2003102935709&mime=asc&archives=t

stevedebi · May 2005

"Actually, Honda hasn't made that statement either... at least not regarding VSA. At least Toyota has VSA available today on the Prius, and other cars."

OK, so they have only committed to putting VSA into all their trucks, SUVs and minivans (which need it most). Thanks for the update.

To get back to the point of my post, do you have a URL where Toyota has made such a commitment?

backy · May 2005

Let's see... VSC is standard on the 4Runner, standard on the Highlander, standard on the Land Cruiser, standard on the RAV4, standard on the Sequoia, and available on all other models (including the Prius, which BTW is the subject of this discussion, not what safety features Honda is promising in the future) except the Tacoma, MR2, and two dead-for-'06 cars (Celica and ECHO). How many Honda models have VSC standard, or even available now? Looks like instead of promises, Toyota is doing it today.

bobour · May 2005

Anyone here has experience buing a Prius in NYC metropolitan area? Seems like noone in the city and upstate has them in stock (expected), and all dealers say will charge MSRP, no more no less. I spoke to 5 dealers on this. Does it even make sense to keep looking, or should I just get on the waiting list (one month or more in Manhattan), and not bother trying to find a deal? What about NJ?

Also, what do people think about getting the most expensive package? I don't feel like paying for the 6 CD changes, as I will use my iPod in the car, but looks like this is the only way to get VSC.

Thanks!

pat · May 2005

Consider buying a hybrid? Reconsider after you learned about the long wait? Whether or not you chose to add your name to the waiting list, a reporter is hoping to hear your perspective. Please respond to jfallon@edmunds.com with your daytime contact info by May 27, 2005.
Thanks,
Jeannine Fallon
Corporate Communications
Edmunds.com

falconone · May 2005

All their cars will have it then too.

falconone · May 2005

I know... for a company that is supposed to be promoting safety they don't even include it on their flagship model HAH. What does that say?

falconone · May 2005

Try some dealers on Long Island and the suburbs. I had a friend who bought his in Scranton, PA and paid less than MSRP. There are many dealers in the surrounding area. Set aside a few hours and make some calls. If you're patient, trust me, you'll find one that you'll be driving within a week.

koker · May 2005

You could get a package 4 which has vsc but not the upgraded stereo or navigation. It would be quite a bit cheaper than the package 6. Different regions are getting different packages, in the boston area dealers seem to be getting packages 3,4 and 6. Your region may be different, but it is possible that you could get a dealer to get a package 4 for you if they don't usually get them in. I ended up getting a package 3 right off the dealer lot in the Boston area, many dealers here had 4's and sixes on the lot to. YMMV. I would take the advice and call around. Good luck!

stevedebi · May 2005

"I know... for a company that is supposed to be promoting safety they don't even include it on their flagship model HAH. What does that say?"

It says that the HAH is low to the ground and so stable in turns that VSA would not have improved the vehicle. Honda is not adding safety features to "pad" a list of items for marketing purposes; they add them where needed.

I know from experience that Honda vehicles are designed to lean less in turns (they also don't ride quite as well as Toyotas as a result). I had a 1998 Sienna and traded it in on an 2000 Odyssey due to this exact factor. It is a different engineering philosophy. My 4 year old kept asking if it was going to tip over when we went onto curving freeway on-ramps. It never did, of course; I'm careful not to exceed the parameters of any vehicle I drive. But man, that Sienna had a great ride.

stevedebi · May 2005

" (including the Prius, which BTW is the subject of this discussion, not what safety features Honda is promising in the future) "

I posted the statement in response to a post about how Honda did not include VSA in it's cars, which opened up room for a response.

molokai · May 2005

Every car can benefit from stability control. It does NOT matter if the car is low to the ground. That is a foolish statement to say the least. The Corolla offers it (even Hyundai does on the Elantra!!). Why doesn't the HAH at least even offer it! I had it in my C320 sedan and BELIEVE me, it works. I won't drive a car without it.

bobour · May 2005

Thanks, all. I'll widen my search area. Yes, it looks like in NY State you can only get 3 set packages. I'll check PA and NJ to see if I can get other packages there.

Toyota Prius

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