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Comments
The Europeans express fuel use as litres of fuel consumed per 100 km travelled (L/100km). To convert between the European system and mi/galUS, divide whichever one you have into 235. For mpgUK use 282.
But now we've been told that engineers working on the new Prius have a fuel economy target of 40km/litre - a mind-boggling 113mpg.
Thanks!
Thanks from Walter.
Prius-2008 will have 9 mile (14.5 km) plugin range.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12529975/
Now what???
Saying the fire originated with the Prius is like saying an apartment building fire started in Apt 102...it doesn't tell you anything.
I have also heard of conventional cars causing fires, e.g. the CR-Vs with faulty oil filters that caught fire awhile back. This was only news because it was a Prius. How interesting. How sad.
I'm not a Prius owner, but I'll respond here. What possible reason would someone have to hate a Prius or a Prius driver? Prius vehicles are good for the environment and save energy. Aren't those supposed to be good things? Is it jealousy over the MPG, maybe? Or do some of the Prius drivers actually go too slow to squeeze every ounce of MPG's out of the car at the sake of other drivers? That's the only thing that I can think of, because I've seen that, and it is pitiful and unfair to others, regardless of whatever kind of car a person drives.
I guess I can actually imagine the "extremist" Prius driver staring at the little fuel economy screen totally obsessed with trying to suck every last drop of gas mileage out of that little car. Maybe it's true and that is what is enraging those folks that are stuck behind those self-centered "extremists". What do you think? Possible explanation? Are those "obsessed extremists" giving the rest of you normal Prius drivers a bad reputation?
TagMan
Hybrid haters
More complaints:
While driving down Highway 85 recently, I ended up alongside a Prius in the carpool lane with a solo driver going 64 mph and blocking a whole line of cars. On the bumper of the car were two bumper stickers. One said ``Neighborhood Speed Patrol'' and the other said ``Patriots Drive the Speed Limit.'' Because traffic in the regular lanes was traveling at about the same speed (surprisingly during commute hours), I was basically next to this guy for about 15 miles. So, here's the punch line: He was on his cell phone the entire time.
Here is someone who felt it was his responsibility to control the actions of others, yet he doesn't control his own. I don't get it. Is this Prius debate really a ``glass house and stones'' sort of debate?
Prius road rage
What I find funny, is how those that are pro hybrid were all behind the media, when they were making outrageous claims about how the hybrids were going to save the world.
It is a simple fact that the Prius just like the Hummer2 sticks out like a sore thumb. Both say look at me I am better than you. Neither will be a blip on the radar screen of human existence. Both create media delight for a fleeting moment in time.
Methinks that this is you main problem with the Prius. It's looks stick in your craw.
The purported "feeling's" of the driver's - if these can somehow be measured - flow from your perception that they are saying '..I am better than you.'. Ever since you've developed this antagonism toward the drivers feelings and the 'stick out like a sore thumb look' everything about it is the work of the devil on some level.
What if...the buyers just like the car and the ride and the amenities nothing more.
Thanks for your response to my beeping question.
All in all, I've decided to have the dealer do it when I take it in for 5ooo mile check.
I did not make any reference to the driver's of either vehicle. It is the vehicles that are in your face. I doubt the Camry Hybrid will have any of the image problems that the Prius has. It will be another Camry only thing different will be the subtle markings that 99% of the other folks will never notice. You may not realize it but you are in the minority of Prius owners. Economics played a bigger role in your purchase than image.
You know, the Civic is smaller. The Civic is less feature rich. The Civic is less green.
But I fit.
6'3" - Boulder, CO.
What I have noticed since about $2.80 per gallon, is the rest of the drivers actually slowing down to the speed limit and somewhat below, and not zooming off at every green light (in fact, I can zip up to speed faster than most traffic then back right off and gain a lot of efficiency).
I think the gas prices are finally shocking people into behavior changes. Hopefully, next time they go car shopping they'll consider getting something which meets 95% of their actual needs (such as a Prius or Civic Hybrid) rather than 98% of their wants.
My own formula for Toyota's and Honda's is that they should depreciate about 10% per yr ( calendar or miles ). That 2004 is only 2 yrs old but it has 4 yrs of miles on it. In my estimation it should be 40% off the original MSRP, say $26000, or roughly $16000 retail - not $20000.
I would have bought the 56K 2004 that we had if the price was $16-17K but we gave the prior owner $20000 in trade value so there was no way to get to my price level.
Interesting, in going from a high performance luxury sports car to an economy level hybrid hatchback I would assume that other drivers would look at you differently and treat you differently!
I notice a big difference in other driver's attitude when switching between my S2000 and my wive's Avalon LOL
From what I have observerd here in Texas, gas prices haven't really shocked people, primarily because because usually there is not a immediate gratification solution. For example, going out an trading one vehcicle for another higher mpg new one is not really a very good economic decision even if the pump fill price is much less.
I have seen very little difference in typical driving habits where I live. Yes, maybe people are taking fewer trips and yes maybe there are more discounts on the Behemoth vehicles and less sales on them, but otherwise it is pretty much Status Quo.
Cheers,
MidCow
Same story here in LA. People are still rushing up to speed and headed for that stop light at full throttle. No sign of any conservation here.
AND I'm still seeing big SUVs with new tags...
Perfect time to buy a big SUV. Prices are down to move iron. Everyone knows the price of gas will go back down. Not a good time to try and deal on any gas sipper especially a hybrid. Dealers have you by the you know what.
I'm looking for any advice?
Is the "trunk" space big enough?
How many mpg does it really get?
and any advice on buying vs leasing?
Thanks-
new buyer
I'm thinking about buying a new Prius.
I'm looking for any advice?
Is the "trunk" space big enough?
How many mpg does it really get?
and any advice on buying vs leasing?
Thanks-
new buyer
I think you need to better define what you personally consider to be big enough trunk space. My personal experience is that the trunk has been big enough to haul 3 persons' worth of personal stuff (luggage mostly) without a problem. And we still had space left over.
I'm currently averaging somewhere between 42 and 45 MPG for a tank. This is 35% city (stop and go) and 65% highway (60 to 75 MPH) with a fair amount of hilly terrain. I'm also not the most conservative of drivers, so better gas milleage is certainly possible. There are a number of posters here who get or exceed the EPA estimates.
My personal opinion on leasing is that I would never ever lease a car. I simply put too many miles on a car to ever make a lease a viable option when financing the car. My commute is 64 miles roundtrip, which comes out to 16K miles a year (320 miles a week times 50 weeks. Gotta take some vacation time now and then, ya know).
If gas milleage is the only consideration for getting a Prius, then you need to take a step back and think about your purchase a bit more. In my case, I was retiring an 8.5 year old '96 RAV4 that had 147K miles on it and was getting around 22 to 24MPG. It still had plenty of life left in it, but it was long in the tooth, lacked a number of safety features (ABS, side curtain air bags, and Traction control/Vehicle Skid Control), and I wanted something new with better gas milleage. For me, the Prius made a lot of sense, not necessarily economic sense, mind you, but it fit my needs more or less perfectly. I could've bought a Civic, Camry, Accord or Corolla to replace the RAV4 and spent less money than I did on the Prius, but I think for the extra money I spent, I got more of a car. Better creature comforts, better technology, and of course, better gas milleage.
Hybrid Highlander forum post #2890
Hybrid Camry forum post #843
These posts will answer a lot of questions.
First though be honest with yourself, why do you want a Prius? If it's primarily to save money by using less fuel, then a Yaris/Fit/Corolla/Civic or used Camry/Accord will probably meet your needs more suitably.
If you have other requirements, roominess, features, etc then the Prius might be right.
If it's for more personal reasons just be honest.
I have one because I commute mega miles every year and the Prius is the least expensive new car with the features/size I want to drive. 50 mpg now in flat terrain 85% Hwy ( 60 mph ) and 15% City.
The Prius is a hatch with huge room in the back with the rear seats down - normal room with the seats up.
Fuel Economy: see the posts referenced above. Your Mileage May Vary ( YMMV ). Be honest again with what type of driving you do. Heavy foot? short drives? City only? Highway commutes at 75 mph?
Buy vs lease: Be honest with yourself again. If this is your first car do you plan to keep it for 10 yrs or so? Or more likely will you be interested in something else in 3-4 yrs? If you are a keeper, buy it. If you are a trader, lease it. However be careful as devsienna noted above with the miles you might put on it. If it's 15000 annually you are OK to lease.. over 20000 mi don't lease.
Welcome to the forum. I was unloading some things at the Salvation Army and a Prius pulled in. They opened the back and I was impressed with the amount of room with the back seats folded down. It has a large flat area to put things which was very nice. Check greenhybrid to see what several hundred Prius owners are getting.
My advice shop several dealers using the Internet. It saves a lot of time and travel. Have them give you a price via email. Don't let them talk you into coming on down. Never act like you cannot walk at any moment if the deal is not satisfactory. Good luck....
The aditional weight would come from 2 axle shafts and a rear diffential and nothing else. These hardware are lighter than normal since it only carry part of the total torque of the HSD.
No added weight from propeller shaft as seen in nonhybrid version. I predict maybe 75 pounds.
What do you think?
The 1/3 torque is routed to a generator (MG-1), mainly for generation of traction current. The current goes to MG-2 or battery storage.
The 2/3 torque is routed to a shaft that connects to the front differential.
That shaft also has an integrated motor (MG-2).
Without the MG-2 in the picture, the diferrential still receives drive torque from the PSD's 2/3 split.
The 1/3 split can be routed to the rear by putting the MG-2 to the rear axle.
Power ditribution between the two splits vary and is mainly dependent on the RPM of each side of the split.
So you see, it is possible to have a limited AWD capability (not off-roadable).
There is no addition of extra electric traction motor in this set-up.
The key thing that makes HSD unique is the PSD.
you're close, but like most of us there is always the one piece of the puzzle missing. The short answer is that the Prius relies on the gearing equation to be true : -
MG1 = ICE x 3.6 - MG2 x 2.6
If you put MG2 on the rear axle then theoretically this should work if the road is dry and traction is good. The problem comes when wet and icy weather causes severe rear wheel slippage. Then the output of the front wheels will drop significantly because if MG1 is no longer able to send appreciable power MG2, then the mechanical power from the PSD will drop in exact ratio on the front wheels. This will cause the vehicle to slow down even if the front wheels had had good traction at the time. And the rear wheels will still be spinning. Take the power off those wheels and the PSD will feed even less to the front wheels in a vicious circle that could end with the vehicle moving very slowly and its back wheels spinning a few mph faster than the front and unable to gain traction.
Clearly using the strip of road between the front and rear tires as a 'coupler' is not a great idea after all.
When you put : -
" The 1/3 torque is routed to a generator (MG-1), mainly for generation of traction current. The current goes to MG-2 or battery storage."
The 1/3 torque must be routed to a generator of which the electric power must be absorbed by MG2.
At max torque MG1 produces 100 amps which is way too rich for the battery which will only accept 50 amps worth and then for a very limited time (orders of a few minutes). When the battery is charged the system is depending on MG2 to absorb all that MG1 can throw at it. Clearly the ability of an MG2 on the rear wheel axle that could drop load by skidding off into hyper space speeds would be a no no.
I hope this helps.
T2
I don't see that as a problem since toyota aready has the hardware for that, the VCM. It will be programmed similar to the priciple of MB 4matic, clipping any of the four spinning tires.
I wrote :-
"Take some power off those wheels and the PSD will feed even less to the front wheels in a vicious circle that could end with the vehicle moving very slowly and its back wheels spinning a few mph faster than the front and unable to gain traction."
May I delicately suggest what I think you may not be understanding about the Prius. The mechanical direct-thru' power, that you want for the front wheels of your proposed drive system, comes as long as power can be expended from MG1 in its generating role. If MG1 can't do its first job of power generation because MG2 is skidding its wheels on sheet ice (let's say) and won't absorb the 30kw of electrical power that MG1 needs to generate, then there ain't going to be no direct-thru' power for the front wheels either. And in that the Prius system is intransigent and adamante. Hence in the Lexus RX400h they leave MG2 where it is and created MG3 for the rear wheels. When they did that they retained a captive load in MG2 which they absolutely need as I have tried to explain above. MG3 - which was mentioned by a knowledgeable poster previously - now becomes an add-on with its own electronic inverter able to fully control the rear end without affecting significantly the torque being supplied to the front end.
Peralta, I think this should fix things for you otherwise I give up. In passing I would like to say keep on with that day dreaming. I do a lot of that myself. I say it is a necessary activity to advance you beyond the status quo. It's also my standard answer to the question "Are you sleeping over there ?"
T2
As you said, this kind of set up is a no-no and I had the same thought before since any one of the 4 wheels that will be on a slippery surface will drain all the power there, leaving the rest of non-spinning wheels helpless.
I was also doubtful of MB approach of 4 ETS, clipping any of the spinning wheels since this involve continuous computer operation and possibility of brakes overheating.
Well, the result spoke for itself. It turns out that 4 ETS is very much needed at zero and near zero speed, after that it can even be turned off as demonstrated by one of MB staffs comparing ETS on and ETS off in a slippery road course. The ETS off gave a faster time.
My AWD suggestion will have similarity to 4matic with the PSD acting as center differential, the front gets 72% of torque split. The remaining 28% goes to MG1 where it is then absorbed by MG2 to the rear.
Any one of the wheels that spins can drain the power there just like the 4matic but 4ets took care of it.
Peace.
As with the 4matic ETS, drive power is maintained (not reduced or cut off) and the spinning wheels are braked so that power can be redistributed to the non spinning wheels.
Peace
Other people invited to chip in.
Inviting larsb to chip in.
Host, can we tranfer a copy of these messages to hybrid engineering course discussion.
I'm about to retire the family SUV and am considering something smaller that gets better mileage for my sub-40mph city drive lifestyle (Mazda 5, Prius are the top choices right now), but am wondering about the trunk space. I'm about to set up test drives, but would love to know if anyone has some real world experience out there. I've got 2 kids in the back, and need to tote around the folding stroller and have room for the "emergency kid kit" (back up outfit, diaper kit...) and then the several bags of groceries from the weekly shopping trip. Is this realistic with the Prius' trunk space? Thanks!
Kid kit, umbrellas, 4 bags of groceries, first aid kit, roadside emergency kit, galoshes, and still nooks to store things. You will be amazed.
I then compared it to a Honda V6 Accord hybrid. Rather funny, that. If you buy a Honda V6 Accord manual transmission you will beat the mileage of the V6 Accord hybrid, by quite a bit. Ditto for the Hybrid Civic.
My conclusion is the only real fuel saving hybrid is the Prius, even if the bean counters say you will not realize overall savings due to the higher purchase cost. Now I just have to arrange my finances to purchace one (and sell the vehicle it's going to replace).