Toyota Prius

texassalsa04 · December 2003

...mnemko...At least here in Dallas, there are sooo many cars on the road that is either Silver or Maroon (which is another name for Salsa Red). I have taken some high res pics of my Salsa. If you like, I can e-mail them to you. Just let me know.

I remember reading somewhere that stated Silver is the most popular car color in the country. I wished that Toyota would have given us more of a choice of colors that does not exactly mimic what other manufacturers are using (vice versa). But then again, I can understand that Toyota want to stay with the current color trend for the industry. I really hate seeing a bunch of cars that has a similar color to my Salsa. The last thing I want is to blend in with the crowd. I prefer to be different. Thank goodness I don't drive a Camry or Accord...you can not go to a stop light here without seeing one (along with a sea of SUVs).

My first choice was Salsa and my second (which is actually my wife's choice) was Silver. Luckily, the Salsa was available first and I decided to go for it. I do like the Salsa very much and IMO I prefer the contrast between the head lights/tail lights and the body color. The Silver does not show as much contrast in this respect as the Salsa because the whites/silvers of the lights blend in with the body color.

Sorry for the rambling...Good luck with your choice. Tony.

texassalsa04 · December 2003

As for MPG, I am averaging between 41 to 43 MPG. I do make a lot of short trips. Terrain here is pretty flat with very low rising hills (if you can even consider them hills). Our temperature lately have been in the low 30s and high 60s with plenty of sun. It's intereting but during one last weekend with alot of running around town, I average between 49 to 52 MPG. I was very surprise to see this and was pretty happy with it. I need to remember to snap a few pics for my records. Tony.

texassalsa04 · December 2003

I am a new subscriber to "Consumer Reports" and in the lattest issue (Jan'04) they did a study on Plus Sizes for cars. I have not had a chance to read the entire article but from a chart, it shows that changing to Plus One tires and wheel will make ride comfort, hydroplaning, and snow performance worst. However, Plus One also give increase performance in areas of Wet/Dry Braking & cornering, Emergency Handling, and Ice Braking. I will change out my tires when the OEMs are worn out but at most will change to 195/60/15. Check out the full article when you get a chance. Tony.

texassalsa04 · December 2003

Thanks for the info. My Prius starts with 17,000+...I should be ok...Tony.

azstan · December 2003

Yesterday we drove over 200 miles on various types of terrain (mountain, two lane roads and Interstate). Return segment of 123 miles was about 1/2 Interstate with lots of traffic where I averaged 54.1 miles per gallon mostly staying within the speed limit (while dodging 18-wheelers took me briefly to 80-85 mph).

I have no complaint about this car with the way it rides and handles. Wind was not blowing so did not notice any cross-wind. Ambient temperature was in the 70's (southern Arizona).

Using "B" going down hills a few times was noticeable and felt good.

Wife is 5'1" and I am 5'10". We both feel quite comfortable with seating and visiblity. More adjustment in the seats is not an issue whatsoever.

Navigation works quite nicely, but took me quite a bit of study and experimentation to use it. I am not very impressed with the Nav manual included. I am somewhat of a computer "nerd" and enjoy new technology (part of my reason for buying the Prius).

Color we have is Seaside Pearl...why don't they just call it Metallic Blue? Looked rather dark in our garage and on the Dealer's floor...but looks quite nice outside in the sunlight.

So far I am very impressed with this car. Only thing that concerns me is what it will take (cost and time) to keep it maintained. My philosophy in owning cars is to keep them maintained while driving the hell out of them (distance...not necessarily speed...our other car is a 1992 Camry XLE which has 238,000 miles on it).

azstan · December 2003

Sylvia...please remove one of my posts "Just turned 1000 miles". Was not paying attention.

mpgman · December 2003

It's interesting that Ford discontinued VSC on the Focus. I read some reviews that claimed this was one of the best VSC systems on the market. Guess the cost of it bundled with air bags and ABS pushed the MSRP too high for their liking.

backy · December 2003

On the Tideland Pearl, I am beginning to think now that it is the color of the car in the C/D 10Best issue. In the photos it looks like a medium grey, darker than Millenium Silver. Since Prius doesn't come in grey I was puzzled as to what color it was, but based on posts above I'll bet it's Tideland Pearl. If it really looks gray that would be OK with me as long as it's not too dark--we'll have to see when it comes in.

wwest · December 2003

Is on its way to becoming a much greater problem that ABS can/will ever be.

But.

First, VSC (PSM,etc.) is almost always coupled with Trac.

Trac is fairly simple to explain in that all it really does is prevent wheelspin if/when too much gas is being applied for the circumstance. Early versions applied braking to the driven wheels while simultaneosuly dethrottling the engine.

Newer, more modern versions still apply the braking immediately but delay the dethrottling slightly to give the operator time to react and lift the throttle on his/her own.

VSC/Oversteering, more common to RWD.

If the rear is coming around to the right then the right front brake is applied lightly to create a braking "moment", force, counter to the motion of the rear. To the left then the left front brake...

VSC/understeering, more common to FWD.

The assumption would be that you're trying to turn left and the car isn't tracking the steering angle. At the moment there are two different methods in the marketplace for overcoming this problem. One of these is to simply apply both rear brakes on the theory, correct, that slowing the car will always help. The other method is simply the reverse of the over-steering cure, apply a single rear brake to create a "moment", force, this time as an aid to the steering angle.

The problem with all of this is that driver's will see/feel its, VSC/PSM/etc, effect as no different than a new set of tires with a larger contact patch.

Without some feedback to the driver (providing a learning experience) indicating that the car has just approached the "edge", and why, most driver's will simply begin to rely on VSC, again and again, just as they would the bigger contact patch.

One of the reasons I like the ABS implementation is that vibrating brake pedal tells me that the tire/roadbed adhesion coefficient is not up to the task at hand.

Do you know that BMW now has a system that will counter-steer the car, against the driver's steering inputs, if their VSC says the turn is too tight???

Now that's going a bit too far!

drscientific · December 2003

My wife (5'9") and I (6'3") are continuing our trip back across country soon. Will leave snow-bound Cape Cod and travel to Georgia, then to California. Total mileage for both trips will be around 6,700 miles. So far, we have no complaints regarding comfort, sound, gas mileage, etc.

We did note the gas gauge problem and hope that it will work itself out.

The color is "tideland pearl." We had no choice here. This color is a striking, although slightly muted green. We think it's quite handsome.

Unless you require lots of space or lots of off-road driving, this is the best car I can imagine. Of course, I'd like a few additions. How about a solar array on roof to add to battery charge?

Thanks to group for providing some useful info on gas gauge.

djasonw · December 2003

I stayed at work until 6:30 on Friday (day storm began) (to avoid the traffic) and my BC Silver held the road like a freight train on rails. Never once did I feel like I would lose control. Anyone on the fence about VSC should definitely give it some consideration. Once I arrived home I took my Jeep Liberty out to get fuel. Even though it outshined the Prius in acceleration from a standstill (no wheelslip), it could NOT hold a candle to the Prius with respect to stability around corners or changing lanes. The car manufacturers better get their act together because VSC/ESP can definitely prevent accidents in the hands of a well trained familiarized driver. I am quite convinced that the Prius with good winter tires would be a very good snow car.

footie · December 2003

In today's Boston Globe, the auto section had a big piece about Honda's recent announcement to have ALL of their cars equipped with ALL of the safety related options as standard equipment before the end of 2006: ABS, Trac, VSC along with side air bags and curtains!

They recognize that safety is a big, big issue in consumers minds and the typical approach to packing safety items with pricey options (a la Toyota, etc.) isn't socially responsible.

jchan2 · December 2003

I saw it on the local news a few days ago.... Sounds interesting. Guess Honda thinks that people shouldn't pay 5 grand for VSC.

wwest · December 2003

Such a driver would never have over-driven the Jeep to the point wherein loss of control was approached or entered.

Sure, the Jeep can be driven over the "edge" while a FWD vehicle with VSC/Trac cannot, at least not as readily, but in the end it is the driver who is responsible.

But I would be willing to bet you that I could take your Jeep and beat your Prius in a snow or ice storm anywhere you want to designate.

If you drive your Jeep as a "well trained and familiarized driver" it will always outperform the Prius in ice and snow.

gscheil1 · December 2003

I think this has been previously discussed but I have not found the discussion. If you are not interested in how the fuel guage operates, just scroll on down.
I only have about 900 miles on my ODO. After returning from a 300 mile trip, I had only one segment on the fuel guage. I had about 45+ miles in MPG but I went ahead and filled the tank. Temperature was about 35 degrees and it only took 6 gallons to fill the tank. Have others experienced this condition and go by the number of miles traveled since "reset" to determine when to refuel?

djasonw · December 2003

I can assure you that I'd rather be in a Prius with VSC on snow pack than in my Jeep on snow pack without VSC. I should know, I own both. Same can be said when I had my Audi allroad. I always took the Audi with ESP any day over the Jeep. Not knocking my Jeep Libery at all (I love it), but hit black ice at least you have a fighting chance with VSC, not so in a Jeep.

geogirl · December 2003

My husband and I decided to buy a Prius (red with pkg #3) due in before the end of year over the 2004 Honda Accord LX even though the Prius will be ~$3000 more expensive. We like the salsa red color (for those who have not seen it in your area, look for a 2004 Camry which also shares that color).

However, we don't like the light tan interior as far as showing dirt. (The salesman told us that the grey was just as light in color.) Has anyone bought/found well-fitting seat covers for this vehicle? With our family needs we need a dark grey color to hide our messes.

wwest · December 2003

you're going to find, that like ABS, VSC will be of no help on black ice.

Basically, VSC depends on differential traction coefficient F/R. Understeering, rear brake(s) are applied on nthe theory that front traction is clearly already all used up. Oversteering, etc.

finestack · December 2003

Is anyone else having difficulty (i.e., no luck at all) accessing Edmunds' Full Test of the Prius? The link's been posted for a week on the home page, and some of you have quoted from it, I think (dB levels, etc.)

I thought I'd be patient, hit refresh 20 or 30 times, and maybe it would just appear. It hasn't...

Update on my Kansas City wait for M.Silver Pkg 4, order placed Oct. 17: Dealer said they're getting approx. 3/month - opined that people are becoming disgruntled with the wait time and are instead running over to Honda and scooping up Civic HB inventories. He seemed just a little peeved at that concept ;^)

Thanks for all the great info on this board. I'll keep reading and bugging the dealer when the excitement becomes too much to deal with!

raguero · December 2003

I just took delivery yesterday on my Prius. It was a long wait (for me anyway) of 8 weeks and here in southern CA it's still a matter of being on a list and then being called by the dealership with whatever comes in. I really wanted a salsa red with package 8 or 9 but, you get little choice, unless you order. My dealership said the cars coming to southern CA are all packages 3,6 or 9. I'm happy with what I got but not too happy with the dealerships tactics. I used Toyota of Santa Monica. The "added" Lo-Jack ($750)and paint protection ($400) without being asked. They know with the current waiting list of customers that we probably aren't going to say no. When I asked the salesman about this he said "well, others dealers are putting a 1000-1500 charge onto the cars just because they are hard to get. we thought we would at least give you something for paying that". What a RIP! Of course I paid full MSRP. They did deal a little on the extended warranty though. They started out at $1500 and knocked it down to $1000 because I paid cash for the car.
I guess there isn't much dealing you can do with a car that is in such a high demand.

geogirl · December 2003

Finestack,
I just went to the Edmunds site and had no trouble calling up the Full Road Test so maybe try it on another computer at the library?

Also good luck with getting your Prius. Didn't know Kansas City would be a hot spot for that car. One dealer here in Colorado said that since they sell a lot of Prius that they get preference when they ask for more. Don't know if that makes sense to me or not.

john1701a · December 2003

> you're going to find, that like ABS, VSC will be of
> no help on black ice.

ABS is great on black ice!

I've tried it both with my previous Prius and my Taurus. It won't allow you to stop any sooner, but it certainly provides much better control. That way you can aim the vehicle to hopefully still avoid a collision by going to the side of the obstruction instead. Or if you have not option but to collide, you can aim to insure a direct impact allowing the crumple-zone and airbags to deliver their fullest potential.

JOHN

ateixeira · December 2003

Black ice is generally scattered around. If it makes you begin to slide, VSC could help you recover.

-juice

alster2 · December 2003

I am curious on what your highway mileage is at a steady speed according to
the computer readout in MPG. For instance at a steady: 50 MPH / 60 MPH, and 70 MPH
I would think that at a steady 50 MPH mpg should be around 60 MPG.

Just my thoughts

Alster 2

boxfan · December 2003

Texassalsa--"I wished that Toyota would have given us more of a choice of colors that does not exactly mimic what other manufacturers are using (vice versa)."

Yeah! I like all the bright colors the New Beetle comes in. Toyota should introduce some bright colors for the Prius, since it's a distinctive car to begin with and most Prius drivers aren't trying to blend in with the crowd. It sounds like maybe they use the same colors on all their models, so it would cost more up front to bring in more colors. Also, it's not Toyota's style to be flashy, in general.

amped · December 2003

Toyota is increasing production for the U.S.

http://pressroom.toyota.com/photo_library/display_release.html?id- - - =12082003a

gscheil1 · December 2003

If you have side airbags, you CANNOT put seat covers on.The side airbags come out of the lower portion of the front seats and would obstruct the air bags. Better check it out before you invest in seat covers.

john1701a · December 2003

When you report findings, make sure to note the temperature at the time of the measurement.

Colder air is more dense. That means it is harder to push through. So naturally, efficiency will be lower during the winter. (And other cold weather factors push it even lower.)

JOHN

wwest · December 2003

"generally scattered about..."

And you want me to put my life at risk on that advice?

How am I to know which is "scattered about" and which is not?

Just beware of bridge decks and/or a close by tree line that shades the road continuously, or not, in the early morning.

ateixeira · December 2003

You wrote: VSC will be of no help on black ice

In a practical situation, at some point you will regain traction, and VSC maximizes your chances of being able to regain control.

So yes, VSC's goal is to correct your heading if something like black ice took you off track in the first place.

-juice

amped · December 2003

It's huge, almost 1Mb, and not quite US spec accurate showing rear solid discs, big wheels and seat height adjuster, but is still cool. Maybe the EU GT spec car?

http://s87059328.onlinehome.us/images/04Cutaway.jpg

ateixeira · December 2003

Cool pic!

-juice

wwest · December 2003

VSC will ONLY interact just as the car begins, almost at the very instant of, the car "getting out of line".

Think of yourself balancing a broom, working side upwards in the air and the end of the handle seated in the palm of your hand, hand open. At the instant the working end starts to "fall over", if you're quick and agile enough you can move your palm back under the broom's center of gravity.

Once it's beyond a certain point your actions will only serve to accelerate its fall rate.

When the car begins to oversteer the opportunity for VSC recovery lasts only until the centerline weight/mass crosses the line of momentum of the center of mass of the car. Once the majority of the car's mass is outside the original line of travel VSC activaty will be detrimental.

Under-steering is a completely different story. That's probably why Toyota has commited to applying both rear brakes instead of only the one needed to provide the logically correct moment/force. Once the car has seriously understeered both brakes cannot hurt whereas the single one might end up putting you into a full spin.

backy · December 2003

I am curious as to why you decided to buy a Prius, despite the issues that you pointed out?

highender · December 2003

I am considering a Prius also. Am thinking about the loaded one with the nav, and feel it is a great warranty. Any thing I should consider ? Will the supercharger or turbo be coming in soon.?

bksward · December 2003

Colder air is more dense. That means it is harder to push through. So naturally, efficiency will be lower during the winter. (And other cold weather factors push it even lower.)

The biggest factor during the winter isn't the density of the air, it is the composition of the fuel. In the winter the gasoline you buy has a higher vapor pressure. It is made of lighter hydrocarbons so that cold starting is easier. In summer the gas is "heavier" to reduce evaporative losses.

So the gas John is getting right now has a lower energy content than what you buy in Phoenix in July. A 10% change in mileage would be within range. Especially when you also include the longer time the car will idle to keep the emissions system warm. This is similar to the longer time a traditional car will spend on "fast idle" while warming up.

The oxygenates that are also often added further lower the energy content. When they were first introduced they caused some real mileage dropoffs in many cars...

wwest · December 2003

I doubt if Toyota will ever do it due to its public "image". But it seems to me that the Atkinson cycle (miller cycle for Mazda) they now use would be perfectly adaptable to variable compression and supercharging.

Why did I buy one?

Hey, life is made up of compromises. I know that the RX will never be ALL I want it to be but....

Hmmmm...maybe the upcoming BMW X3.

Highender: buy the 04. But personally I would spent my nav money on a portable. Besides which the nav in my 01 RX had gotten me lost more than once. So many flaws I don't use it unless I first crosscheck before leaving home.

ateixeira · December 2003

wwest: your scenario is assuming you spin completely and instantly out of control. That's pretty rare.

Oversteer in particular would be nearly impossible in the Prius.

-juice

wwest · December 2003

Has it not occurred to anyone that like having to start the engine for A/C (pre-04) in the summertime the system may run the ICE more often in the wintertime simply to provide a heated cabin?

I would guess that the warmer you want to keep the cabin, and/or the colder it is outside, the lower the MPG will be, on a direct relationship.

wwest · December 2003

Your statement only applies to POWER oversteer, undoubtedly more common to the public especially with RWD. But oversteering is NOT restricted to RWD.

If VSC cannot prevent loss of control within the first few milliseconds of detection of "impending" loss of control, then it most likely cannot be of any help at all.

john1701a · December 2003

> Has it not occurred to anyone that like having to start
> the engine for A/C (pre-04) in the summertime the system
> may run the ICE more often in the wintertime simply to
> provide a heated cabin?

Just talk to someone in the extreme south that runs their A/C 100% of the time during the summer. Their numbers are reversed, where winter is better.

Of course, with the A/C now being electric, the game has changed.

JOHN

officecork · December 2003

I live in Los Angeles, have the side airbags, and the dealer (one of the largest Toyota delealerships in L.A.) installed my leather seats prior to my pick up. Dealer said it is not true that leather seats cannot be installed with side air bags. My seats look great. of course, I haven't had to use the side air bags, but dealer seemed to have good knowledge of facts.

wwest · December 2003

Your dealer is perfectly correct, but like my USAF recruiter, he may not have told you the entire story.

Yes, leather seat covers can be installed with side airbags, no question.

But.

If the airbags are in the outside of the back of the seat then I have very little doubt that your dealer has compromised the proper operation of your side airbags.

prius4meus · December 2003

"In the photos it looks like a medium grey, darker than Millenium Silver."

You are absoultely correct. We chose Tideland Pearl (see post 1159) based on the color sampler on the Toyota website (checked on several different high-quality computers). We expected a bit more green. In actuality, there is only the slightest hint of green and only in certain lighting. It is essentially grey. My wife, who is more familiar with tidelands, says the color is aptly named so I searched for a picture of a tideland and found the following:

http://www.asahi.com/international/aan/hatsu/images/jpg/020824d.j- pg

This is much closer to the color of the car than the sampler on the Toyota site.

Gas mileage update:

First highway trip, Cleveland to DC round trip. 4 passenger. Drove 73 mph in 65 mph limit areas (most of the trip). 60 degrees for outgoing leg, 31 degrees for return. MPG: 47 outgoing, 41 return. On the return, there were some stiff crosswinds which were definitely noticeable. However, one of these crosswinds blew a Windstar 1/4 of the way across a lane so I suppose this was extreme.

What a great car!

raguero · December 2003

I finally picked up my Prius, gold with package 6. I would have preferred Salsa with #9 but this one was here. My Toyota dealer (Santa Monica) STILL has a waiting list of over 100 people. The car is awesome. The only thing I didn't care for in the buying experience was that this dealer added Lo-Jack and "paint sealant package" which of course came to another $1000. Their attempt to explain this amounted to a statement that other dealers are added a 1000-1500 acquisition fee. They though they would at least give you a little something for the extra profit they make. They did sell the car at MSRP The only discount I got was on the extended warranty. they also included the oil change package (every 5000 miles)for free but only because I complained so much about the "extras". That and I paid cash for the car. I've already gotten curious people looking at it in parking lots though and have given answers to questions about the car.

bghw · December 2003

Hello,
I've been reading this topic for a while. I ordered a silver or tan #8 in October (I'm in So. Cal). No word yet on delivery. Anyway, I wanted to know if the CD changer has a random feature? I really really like random and would be depressed if it weren't there.

Does anyone know who has seen or bought the Tideland pearl (prius4meus) know if it is darker than the silver? I like how it's described above (#1690) but I want to know if it's a masculine dirty green color or a pretty light green. Toyota's website's color is way off. I saw a blue prius in Santa Monica and it was much darker than both the website and the brochure...

john1701a · December 2003

> I wanted to know if the CD changer has a random feature?

Yes, it does. In fact, it has 2 random modes: within the same CD and in all loaded CDs.

JOHN

texassalsa04 · December 2003

prius4meus...yes, that is what I find also. I saw a Tideland color at a local dealership parking lot and it looked very gray to me. The Toyota website does not represent true colors.

John...what do you think? Lately here in Dallas, the temp has been like a roller coaster. Some days the high is in the 60s other days it's in the 30s. I have to use my Auto A/C and Temp buttons on the steering wheel alot to adjust for warm and cool air circulation. I read in the manual and it say if you use the AC (to cool your cabin) your fuel economy is worst than if you do not use the AC. I thought that since the AC is electric, it will not affect the fuel economy? It also looks like the car takes the outside temp into account and adjust the AC/Heater accordingly.

I remember getting into the car and it's about 60 outside and because it was a clear sunny day, the cabin was pretty warm (guessing 75?)and when I power the car up, the fan was blowing really hard. I know that I did not leave the fan on that high when I powered off the car. Could it be that the Prius is trying to adjust the temperature inside the cabin? Very interesting

geogirl · December 2003

Thanks for the info about not using seat covers over the side air bags - I didn't know that they came from the seat. I did, however, find a couple of web sites that claim they can make the seat covers that will accommodate the air bags. I don't know anything about the companies and they do seem pricey, but thought I would pass them along. Does anyone have any experience with any of these?

http://www.misssideless.com/homepage.html

http://www.seatcovers.net/car-seat-covers.html

http://www.seatcover-mfg.com/

http://www.seatcoverworld.com.au/airbags.htm

wwest · December 2003

Almost all, if not all, Toyota and Lexus automatic climate control systems have an OAT (outside air temperature) sensor which is used to determine some of the functionality of the system.

And a solar radiation sensor.....

Toyota Prius

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