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Selecting and Buying My First Car

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  • theatrenerdtheatrenerd Member Posts: 3
    I actually hadn't been considering any of the F-body cars, until I drove a '97 Camaro the other day. I really liked it. I thought the clutch was great :) I'm still wondering about reliability/gas mileage/insurance, though. (I'm just looking at the V-6, or possibly the base V-8.)

    Any input?
  • theatrenerdtheatrenerd Member Posts: 3
    Between a '97 Mustang and a '97 Camaro, which would be the better option as far as reliability? Assuming they both have similar mileage, options, and engine types, of course. (Please, try to keep the violent Ford vs. Chevy arguments to a minimum :)
  • qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 32,889
    well, asking for reliability of Ford vs. Chevy is just asking for trouble. ;)

    Well, let's say its a GT vs. a Z28. The Z will cost a bit more (according to Edmunds numbers), but will be quite a bit faster (almost a full second to 60), but its a couple hundred pounds heavier. BUT, you want to know about reliability. I'd say flip a coin. I've always been partial to the Chevy 350 in terms of parts availability, ease of repair, and general reliability, but the Ford 4.6 has proven itself over the years to have pretty stout internals. I've found you can usually count on all the pumps needing replacement on the Ford at about 140K miles, but that's really not a huge deal, if you are a mechanic that is (IIRC correctly, that oil pump that will fail at 140K needs to have the engine jacked up and oil pan removed).

    '11 GMC Sierra 1500; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP; '11 Mini Cooper S

  • jasmith52jasmith52 Member Posts: 462
    Well I might be a bit biased on this topic.

    I've owned 6 F-bodies (3 Camaros, 3 Firebirds) and no Mustangs.

    The V-8 Z-28 Camaro or Firebird Formula/Trans Am are the performance bargain of the century. These cars are a rocket. That Corvette derived LS1 or LT1 engines are remarkable in that they have mucho horsepower down at the low RPM's where you can use it.

    The difference in the V-6 versions and the V-8's are:
    The power difference (of coarse)
    The V-8's have a tighter suspensiona and handle better around corners
    The V-8's have that cool V-8 growl

    Think of the V-6 as a sporty looking car with a little more power that handles better than a family sedan. Think of the V-8 as a little rocket waiting for you to unleash it.

    Expect reliability to be about average compared to a wide selection of cars (much better than a Hyundai or VW but not as good as a Toyota). I would think that reliability of a Camaro versus a Mustang would be about the same. Check the reliability ratings here on Edmunds. My one little comment is that (in my experience) Ford parts tend to be expensive relative to GM parts. So just maybe it will cost a bit more to repair a Mustang.

    Expect your insurance to be higher on a sports car than on a econobox or a family sedan. That V-8 Camaro likes to idle down the road at about 80 miles per hour. If you are young and unmarried with a poor driving record then expect to pay through the nose for insurance. I had a (young) friend who after getting three or four speeding tickets was paying more for his insurance than his Z-28 car payment. The V-6 version insurance rates are much better since the horsepower is less. Since I'm a good driver my rates were just a bit higher than for any other car. You'll need to talk to your insurance company to find out the rates for you. Do this on any car that you are considering Camaro or otherwise.

    Gas Mileage on either the V-8 or the V-6 are pretty good - much better than you would expect. I used to get 24-25 miles per gallon in a V-8 Firebird formula on my 45 miles commute to work. The V-6 Firebird that I had was a bit better and got maybe 26 mpg. You can look up the EPA mileage numbers on these cars here on edmunds.

    The other thing about these cars is the fun factor - and they are great in this category. Life is too short to drive an econobox.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Watch out for insurance rates, those can kill you with pony cars.

    Death rates are also horrible, but I think a lot of that is just the demographic they appeal to, mostly young males.

    -juice
  • jasmith52jasmith52 Member Posts: 462
    Real world injury rates for the Camaro are average when compared against all cars. Camaro injury rates were 20 percent less than a Mustang.

    http://www.hwysafety.org/vehicle_ratings/ictl/previous/ictl_0900.- pdf - see the end of the document for the sports cars

    For what it's worth the Camaro received the best barrier crash test rating of ANY car when it was crash tested in 1994.

    I will concede though that performance cars tend to attract a reckless demographic skewing accident statistics
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Yeah, my neighbor's kid owned a few of both those cars, and he kept telling me Camaros were cheaper to insure, despite being quicker.

    Still, I think there are better choices for a first car.

    Ironically, my first car was a used Mustang, a 1981 Mustang Ghia with a 3.3l I-6 engine. It was junk, though, slow and still had sky-high insurance rates. I really think it was a poor decision on my dad's part to give me that particular car (it was a surprise).

    -juice
  • asafonovasafonov Member Posts: 401
    I am looking at the PDF sheet that you posted a link for, and I am a bit puzzled. I see that "twin" models (Corolla-Prizm, Villager-Quest) have substantially different rates on all three parameters, injury, collision and theft. I can see how theft rates can be different, but different injury and collision rates in vehicles that differ only cosmetically?
  • steine13steine13 Member Posts: 2,818
    Different demographics, different drivers, different accident rates. Life's messy. -Mathias
  • jasmith52jasmith52 Member Posts: 462
    Asafonov:

    Well that twin paradox is puzzling isn't it ?

    I can only guess:
    Perhaps the demographics and ability to drive a car of the two driver populations (Corolla & Prism) are different. Perhaps the cars are similar but they are not exactly the same. Their differences result in different collision and and likelihood of accident characteristics.

    Maybe another poster has some ideas ?
  • joey16joey16 Member Posts: 2
    Hey everyone, I'm coming to the point where I'm going to be getting a car fairly soon. I'm 16 going to be 17 in June. And I'm starting to look around for vehicles. I know that whenever I go to a dealership or something they see how young I am and think "Oh boy, time to take advantage of a young ignorant kid." But hopefully with the help of some elders here I won't be the ignorant kid they think. I overall just would like for people's advice on what I should and shouldn't do. Like for example already a dealer tried to tell me I should finance, but I know I don't want to end up paying more. So if anyone could give me pointers it'd be great! Thanks.
  • ghuletghulet Member Posts: 2,564
    ...you aren't legally allowed (in most, if not all states) to sign a contract to finance a car until you're 18. Also, if you don't have any credit established (also virtually impossible til after you're 18), most lenders wouldn't loan you the money for a car anyway. I'd save your money or, if you're parents are willing and able, let them buy you a car. Don't buy anything too fast, too expensive, too large, or piggish with fuel. Don't forget about insurance (check rates before you consider ANY car, it's a MAJOR expense for a guy your age), upkeep, repairs and gas. Actually sit down and budget to see if you can reasonably afford what you'd like to buy (while still being able to eat, go the movies, buy clothing or whatever else you like to do). Are you going to college? If so, are you paying for some or all of it? I've seen more than one person forced to drop out of college to pay for some old car. Think about the future. Most people your age (myself included at that time) tend to buy cars based on emotion rather than reason. Try to avoid doing that. Do some research, ask your parents or another trusted relative for guidance if they've had decent luck with cars.

     

    Also, this probably isn't what you want to hear, but consider whether you actually 'need' a car at 16 or 17, or whether you could get by using a family car, the bus or getting rides from family, neighbors, friends and co-workers. Cars are expensive, it's not a decision to be taken lightly. To many younger people, they initially represent 'freedom', but in reality, they take a lot of time (working, worrying) and financial freedom away from you, no matter what age you are. You can talk yourself into buying a car because you 'need' one to get to work (at likely a lower-paying job), only to discover you're working almost exclusively to pay for the car, to the detriment of your grades, your family responsibilities and your remaining social life. Most of us have already learned this the hard way. Be careful, and good luck!
  • tmarttmart Member Posts: 2,233
    Very good advice.
  • jlawrence01jlawrence01 Member Posts: 1,757
    I agree with Ghulet. While a car seems to be a necessity, do you really want to go in debt on a car especially when it would be better to save for a college education / trade school?

     

    If you do buy a car, buy cheap. There is no need for you to own a $20k car at this stage in your life. I would look for a 7-8 year old Escort, Buick, etc. with about 85k for somewhere in the ballpark of $3-4k. The cars tend to be pretty reliable but make sure that you have a mechanic check it out for you.

     

    As for how to get an advantage on the purchase, do your homework. If you run out and buy without doing the research, you will get an expensive lesson. Dealers are there to make a profit. I am there to get the best possible deal, It is a zero-sum game in that anything that the dealer gets comes out of my pocket.

     

    Unless you can get a co-signer (parent or relative), this whole discussion is moot. That is, most smart people will not sell to a minor. Why? Because in Contract Law 101, any contract is VOIDABLE. That means that the minor can cancel any transaction or IOW, the seller could have the sale fall through after completion. Your cosigner won't have that option.

     

    Hope that helps.
  • joey16joey16 Member Posts: 2
    Hey thanks for all the advice so far, I appreciate it. I understand that many of the things involving buying a car will also involve my parents, I know they will be the ones to sign for things etc. But I just want to gain knowledge so I learn early, I want to go to a dealership and have a salesperson be surprised at my knowledge. Also about needing a car, I think it'd help because I've rode my bike for a year or so and I ride everywhere, from 2-8 miles to get places. But I don't just ride to get around, I ride for fun as I'm into the whole bmx seen. Plus I love being independant and not having to work around others schedule to get around. That's a big reason why I got a job 8 months ago, because I wanted to buy what I want, when I want (as well as start saving for my future).
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 25,652
    that you're working, and trying to be independent at such a young age, but just don't let the car purchase consume you, and ultimately hold you back.

     

    I got my first car a few months before I turned 17. It was free, as my Mom gave me her old 1980 Malibu coupe. But my stepdad made me get an insurance policy in my own name, which when you're 16 or 17 ain't cheap! And if you're male, I don't think it becomes cheap until you turn 25! At least, that's when mine really went down, but I also got married at 25, which helped too.

     

    But anyway, I still remember that first year of insurance. $1,361. And that was back in 1987! I'm sure it would be a LOT more than that today! I was working at a veterinary clinic part time after school back then, maybe 19-21 hours per week. In the summer, they'd let me work more, like 35-40. It only came out to like $4000 per year, so essentially just the car insurance was taking 1/3 of my take-home! And then there was gas, maintenance, repairs, etc.

     

    I was still able to save a little money, but at that time there was no way that I would've been able to go out and actually buy something from the dealership! At least, not anything fairly new. And it's not like I could pick up any more hours because of this little time-waster called "school" ;-)

     

    And that's an important thing. Make sure that you don't get in over your head by over-working yourself to pay for the car, and making your school work suffer. You may not feel the pain now, but ultimately that's something that you could be paying the penalty for, for years to come, as it might be harder to get into a decent college, or even a community college, reduced wages down the road, etc...
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Go to a car show, and narrow down your choices there, by shopping cars that you fit into comfortably and have the room for your stuff.

     

    Once you've narrowed it down, do you shopping on the 'net.

     

    At least that way you deal with a car dealership as little as possible. You will need to do test drives, but show your research and hopefully they will take you seriously, especially since you went through all that trouble and even got a price quote.

     

    -juice
  • audia8qaudia8q Member Posts: 3,138
    Good advice
  • jchan2jchan2 Member Posts: 4,956
    Buy something with lower insurance rates- I'm thinking more Honda Accord, Toyota Camry type cars. That is, if you can find one used in your price range. If not, the Ford Taurus is a decent ride- nothing special but at least it gets you where you're going.
  • ghuletghulet Member Posts: 2,564
    ...for the record, that Camrys and Accords are cheap to insure, based on theft rates alone. I'm pretty sure Hondas in general are among the most expensive vehicles to insure.
  • jlawrence01jlawrence01 Member Posts: 1,757
    IF Accords and Camrys are cheaper to insure, that would be certainly counterintuitive as 1) they generally have higher theft rates and 2) they have higher residual values.
  • jchan2jchan2 Member Posts: 4,956
    that's true. I never thought about theft rates, but maybe a Ford Taurus would work? I would think that the theft rate on a Taurus is quite low.
  • michaellnomichaellno Member Posts: 4,120
    for low insurance rates, you cannot beat Saturn. I specifically talked with my insurance agent about it, and for teenagers, a 4-door Saturn is about the cheapest thing to insure.
  • automd984automd984 Member Posts: 11
    You mean 93-02 Camaro/Firebird. They were not around in 2003
  • automd984automd984 Member Posts: 11
    You can not find an Avalon for $8k but i know for a fact you can find a Maxima for 8k 1995-1999. i just entered a search on http://www.autotrader.com and i found more than 1800 entries.

    mike
  • automd984automd984 Member Posts: 11
    Of course, it's a lighter car. But, how the heck can you even compare a Ford Explorer and a Corolla. As you said it's a lot heavier than a corolla (over 1000 lbs), the Ford is an SUV, at the time, the explorer had a 4.0L V6 or an optional 5.0 V8(not even close to the 1.8L inline-4).
  • automd984automd984 Member Posts: 11
    I know that 7-8yr old Buick's are cheap but if you are looking for a reliable car, than I would avoid looking at one.

     

    I'd personally go for a honda. They might be cheap but they can last you forever. (Well if people call Honda's cheap, what is an Escort/buick)? ACtually they depreciate more since they are american-made.

     There have been Honda's that last 300-400k miles. I personally think a 2-door Prelude is a nice car and the base tranny is a 5-spd. for 1992-1996, you can choose from 3 trim levels: the S, the Si, or the VTEC. They come with 4 cylinder engines(base one is a 2.2L, which is peppy, and the 2.3L.) Consumers highly recommend 92-96 Preludes and they say to get a low mileaged one. The second thing they say is if you want more style and performance you get the Si or VTEC.
  • rroyce10rroyce10 Member Posts: 9,332
    ..**I know that 7-8yr old Buick's are cheap but if you are looking for a reliable car, than I would avoid looking at one** ..

     

                Really.? there's only about a Kazillion Buicks out there with 125/150k+ ticking away on the Odo's and never missed a beat .. just because they may not be pretty and don't say "Honda" on the back doesn't mean they don't go shoulder to shoulder and toe to toe .......

     

                               Terry.
  • jlawrence01jlawrence01 Member Posts: 1,757
    **know that 7-8yr old Buick's are cheap but if you are looking for a reliable car, than I would avoid looking at one. **

     

    Let's see my Ciera has 105k trouble free miles with one $300 repair other than normal maintenance. And I have friends with Buicks that have 150+ with no major problems. Unlike my sister's Accord with the blown engine at 50k.

     

    The original request was for a car UNDER $3K. Where you going to get at THAT price on a Honda -a 12 year old with perhaps 175k. IOW, you are going to get a car that has been ridden hard for a long time.

     

    Depreciation is a GREAT thing for a used car buyer. It gets me a good deal. I would take a 2 year old Taurus at $6k any day over an 2 yr old Accord for what - $15k. The same function at half the price.
  • orangelebaronorangelebaron Member Posts: 435
    from old Chrysler products.

    Unless you like to constantly replace head gaskets, steering racks, transmissions, idle speed motors, window regulators, etc. There's a reason why they sell cheap used! I've had enough of them to know!
  • automd984automd984 Member Posts: 11
    The Pontiac Bonneville is so huge, if i were you i dont know what i'd do with a bonne.
  • jchan2jchan2 Member Posts: 4,956
    a Saturn. The original one. They should be quite cheap.
  • chris65amgchris65amg Member Posts: 372
    My dad bought me a (then new) '95 Buick Riviera as a "getting out of college" gift. For a Buick, I loved it. I think they're only about 6-8k now, but it'll be hard finding one.

     

    Saturns are nice first cars, and you will pay less insurance. But gosh, no matter what your price range, if you are a young male, your insurance will be pretty high.

     

    A tip: dress like a geek when you go to sign the insurance policy. (Big ugly sweater, find some big glasses...)

     

     I think that may have been why mine was cheaper, or maybe because a Riviera is a big old tub. Big old 2 door tub. I have an '04 Corolla now, but don't bother looking for an 03+ Corolla because their resale is actually higher than I thought. Insurance is low, even though I slipped in a supercharger and xenon headlights.... or maybe because I'm 31....

     

    Don't let your car payments ruin your life. If it's too pricy, don't buy it. If you do, your friends might be going on a vacation while you sit at home.

     

    Good luck!
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    If you get a used GM stick with the 3.8l engine, it's a lot more reliable than some other V6s they sold.

     

    -juice
  • jchan2jchan2 Member Posts: 4,956
    an older Infiniti I30 or G20. Don't know the insurance on them, but hopefully they shouldn't be terribly high.
  • kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 235,179
    Reading the local Saturn dealer's ad in the paper.. Every '99 and older Saturn on his lot was $3995 or less....

     

    Now, you couldn't give me a Saturn.. but, I thought that was reasonably cheap transportation.. and, I'm assuming that you could negotiate a further discount from these asking prices... Probably half the cost of a comparable Civic..

     

    regards,

    kyfdx

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  • jasmith52jasmith52 Member Posts: 462
    For What It's Worth:

     

    The Saturn dealer near me has fixed prices on all of their cars (The Saturn Way). So maybe there wouldn't be any negotiation for the cars you saw in the paper.

     

    Prices tend to be around 1000-1500 over wholesale book. Cars are clean and probably run well.

     

    I'd purchase one if I were in the market for a economy car.
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    That for people on a tight budget a Saturn isn't a bad way to go. Pretty ho-hum cars that have lousy resale and seem to hold up pretty well.

     

    And whoever suggested the 3800 GM engine, I'll chime in and agree it's one of the best engines ever produced by anyone.

     

    Which begs the question...WHY would GM feel compelled to buy V-6 engines from Honda?
  • kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 235,179
    Well... as good as the 3.8 engine has been, it would be like a tractor motor in the VUE Redline.. Saturn has always been about luring import buyers over to GM... A smooth Honda V-6 would be the way to go, I think.. I think more fuel efficient than the 3.8.. not to mention, 250 hp.

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  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    You would THINK with as many years as GM has building engines that they would be able to design their own?

     

    Seems like they would be embarassed.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    People here only talk about one side of that deal. Didn't GM provide Honda with diesel engines in Europe?

     

    I bet in Europe people were saying "I can't believe Honda can't come up with their own diesel engine" back when the deal was first made.

     

    Now Honda builds their own diesel. But let's be fair, they leaned on GM, too. Well, Isuzu actually, which is owned by GM.

     

    -juice
  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H Administrator Posts: 11,145
    Please see discussion title.

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  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H Administrator Posts: 11,145

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  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Kudos to Edmunds for giving affordable cars some attention. College kids rejoice!

     

    -juice
  • lathamlatham Member Posts: 33
    My wife's car was stolen last week, and I'm beginning to think about replacing it. I'm 25, live in Berkeley, and have driven an 89 Corolla wagon passed on to me when I got my license, and it's still going strong at 147k miles. I'll probably drive it until it dies. My wife was driving a 92 Accord (198k miles) passed on to her from her mother until it was stolen.

     

    Neither of us has purchased a car before.

    I've been reading through information and forums here, and I'm still unsure about what to narrow my focus on. I'm hoping to get some advice.

     

    I'm looking for a car with good long term value. For now the car would be used primarily for my wife commuting, and probably for occasional road trips for the two of us. Safety, reliability, mileage, and cost are important to me. Style, capacity, luxury, resale value, and brand name are not in themselves important to me. I'm not too worried about depreciation, since we're generally willing to keep driving our cars until it's no longer practical to do so. My wife only drives automatics right now, so I'd prefer to get one of those, though I'm trying to teach her manual (since my car is a stick and is currently our only vehicle). If a manual is a significantly better value, we might be willing to go for it.

     

    I'm willing to purchase a new or used car. We have money saved, so we could reasonably use cash to purchase a new car and drive it 10-15+ years. I'd really appreciate some advice, both general and specific.

     

    1) Would you recommend getting a used or new car?

    2) Are there specific models and years that you would recommend? (Even links would be cool)

     

    Thanks,

    latham
  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H Administrator Posts: 11,145
    Welcome to the Forums, latham! Everybody here will be happy to help you with your decision. For starters, though, I think personal experience is a great factor to rely on, and you've been fortunate enough to have positive experiences with the two vehicles you inherited.

     

    So the obvious question would be, have you considered purchasing another Accord, or looking at the Camry? Neither of these cars are going to blow your hair back style-wise, but they meet your primary criteria.

     

    Do you have a budget in mind?

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  • lathamlatham Member Posts: 33
    Right now I don't have a specific budget in mind. I'd be willing to spend $2,000 on an older used car if I thought it would provide a good value for awhile. I'd be willing to spend $20,000 if it was truly the best deal for a vehicle for many years to come. My guess is that I'll more likely end up getting a $4k-8k used car, or $10k-14k new car.

     

    As far as the Camry and Accord go, I'm not sure what benefits they offer over the Corolla and Civic that justify an increased $5k, or for that matter over an Echo, Elantra or Accent.
  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H Administrator Posts: 11,145
    Hey, if you're willing to go with a smaller vehicle, then there's nothing wrong with the Corolla or Civic (or an Echo).

     

    Many members will steer you away from the Elantra & Accent because of reliability and quality issues.

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  • danf1danf1 Member Posts: 897
    I know that this will get some interesting discussion rolling, but I'd reccomend an Elantra for you. If you drive the Echo, Elantra, and accent you will know why.

     

    Many people who post here are not believers in any Hyundai product, but they do give you great value. With the standard warranty, the covereage is the best available and if you plan on keeping the car forever, you can purchase a 10yr 100,000 bumper to bumper warranty as well.

     

    Dollar for dollar, you can't beat these cars.

     

    Alright everybody fire away.
  • kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 235,179
    Or.. buy a 2-year old Elantra, and save 60%?

     

    I can't see buying one new...

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