Lexus RX 400h and 450h

falconone · December 2004

Their lineup is quite boring, but I'd steer clear of the E320. That is unless you want to have a VERY intimate relationship with your Mercedes service advisor. I've had three relatively recent Mercedes and I would not buy again.

falconone · December 2004

Probably just to help it out of situations where some rear thrust is needed. I bet it will be quite nice in snow.

robertsmx · December 2004

The effectiveness of AWD system will be situational. Under full throttle acceleration, the rear wheels will have a small fraction of power so they will play little role in the overall picture. However, under part throttle/lower speeds/cruising, the power differential between front and rear may not be a lot. In fact, owing to characteristics of electric motor compared to ICE, the available 30 HP at the rear wheels may be more than whatever ICE provides to the front wheel.

brightness04 · December 2004

I thought it was 210 to the front and 75HP to the rear, with a combined simultaneous peak of about 270HP. Anyhow, even 30HP is tremendous amount of force put to the pavement when the RPM is so low at the wheel (only 360rpm or so at 30mph); using the rule of 5454 (torque x rpm / 5454 = horsepower), 30hp is quite capable to providing more than 1/3g accelearation (from rear wheels alone, or 2/3g from all wheels if the fronts do their share equally) at speads below 10mph, in other words spinning/chirping the wheels on launch. 2/3g acclearation is tremendous performance; it's like someone hitting your back with 100-150lb force depending on your weight.

In a conventional ICE mechanical only vehicle, the engine does not delivery much power at low RPM launch. Clutch-dumping launches spend most of the engine power on shredding the clutch and transmission during the first few tire rotations. Hopefully the electrical drive is much more efficient for lauches because electrical motors themselves have constant torque line from zero RPM.

wwest · December 2004

ABS prevents the wheels from locking so you can still have stearing control. Primary drive at the front requires Trac, braking/dethrottling, to prevent loss of stearing control due to torque application.

RWD alleviates the problem.

robertsmx · December 2004

But creates its own, hence "the attack of the vehicle control systems".

phatcat · December 2004

Keep in mind that the Federal government has extended the "Clean-Fuel" vehicle tax deduction of $2000 through the end of 2005.

This will be available to purchasers of the RX400H and will help offset the "hybrid" premium over the ordinary RX330

gagrice · December 2004

This will be available to purchasers of the RX400H and will help offset the "hybrid" premium over the ordinary RX330

Welcome to the forum. The IRS has not made an announcement on the upcoming RX400h? The auto companies have to apply for their vehicle to be included. Here is a link to the current vehicles covered under that tax deduction. Remember if you are in the highest 37% bracket you will save $740. Not much on a $52k vehicle.

http://www.irs.gov/newsroom/article/0,,id=104549,00.html

tomm · December 2004

What are u talking about???

tomm · December 2004

tomm · December 2004

Just received the co. letter - yes, 4-15-05; plenty hp and pick-up. We bought our '99 Lexus RX in 8-98 - 83,500 miles now - never any problems - just looking forward to some better milage. The RX (esp. the 400h) will be beautiful, roomy, economical, sacious, and very peppy - who needs more?? If you don't want a Lexus, just buy the Toyota and stop complaining!

plee1 · January 2005

Please let me know if I'm being unreasonably frustrated. It's now about 3 months out from the release date, and yet there still seems to be little information on some crucial information such as MSRP. Lexus stated that it was going to assign a particular car to a particular customer while on the shop floor, which suggested to me that color (and potentially option choices) could be individualized per customer wishes. Yet my dealer has indicated that they expect cars to just come in to its lot pre-loaded and in pre-assigned colors and it will be take it or leave it. I seem to remember being promised quarterly updates, but those don't seem to be forthcoming.

jimxo · January 2005

A friend of mine has one and asked if I wanted to take it for a spin.

It's not his he works for Lexus. I'll post some pics and report back with my thoughts. My wife drives a 01 RX FWD so I have that to measure it against. If there is a window sticker or pricing I'll be sure to get it.

windy6 · January 2005

Got the new issue and it reviews the 400h (along with some other interesting vehicles) Obviously more of a "hype" article than anything else.

Interestingly enough it lists the "price" as $46K-$50K, but since it discusses the RX 330's low price of $36,675, let's assume that 46 is for the unfindable "completely stripped down model. After reading the article my wife's only comment was, "I'm glad we didn't wait the extra year to spend that much more.

windy6

birger · January 2005

Hi,

I had the opportunity to drive the RX400h last Sunday. Not much more than 15 miles, but enough to have me seriously considering getting this and not the 2006 Mercedes ML (W164) as my next vehicle.

It's VERY powerful if you step on it, yet incredibly silent. Moving gently off from a stop, you use only electric power - smooth! Driving it was a real pleasure.

Fit and finish are excellent - only trouble being that due to fuel consumption issues they're considering not offering the moonroof here in Europe (weight).

I'll get my impressions together in a more detailed form soon, if you wish.

Kind regards from Luxembourg, Europe

Birger

Kirstie_H · January 2005

Welcome, Birger from Luxembourg! I've been to your fair country.

Did you drive this car at a dealership? Is it now available to purchase in Europe?

birger · January 2005

Hi, Kirstie

Thanks for the welcome - by "fair country" do you mean Luxyland or Denmark??

The test drive was at the local Lexus dealership. Availability here in Luxembourg is estimated for August or September. I just read in a German magazine that they expect deliveries to start in June.

Kind regards, all

Birger

wco81 · January 2005

Didn't think SUVs were that common in Europe.

Kirstie_H · January 2005

I've been to Luxembourg, not Denmark.

Maybe this vehicle will be more popular in Europe than traditional SUVs. I'm sure a big barrier to sale is the gas guzzler aspect.

kenworthy · January 2005

I have been to Europe several times and there are a lot of small and mid-sized SUV's on the roads. You don't see any Suburbans, but there are a lot of RAV4s and the like. I saw quite a few RX's when I was in Britain last year.

callmedrfill · January 2005

Says 30/26 MPG city/hwy. 4WD and 30 MPG! AND 0-6 in the low 7's?

   I thought the idea was a fairly loaded RX, with a $5k hybrid engine, which is what MT is reporting.

   I'm sure there are a couple of options, but if the price is under $50k, it's a good value!

   DrFill

larsb · February 2005

I dont know if anyone posted this new review yet, but here it is:

http://macleans.auto123.com/en/site/printpage/printpage,view,Lexus.spy?

yerth10 · February 2005

http://www.evworld.com/view.cfm?section=communique&newsid=758- 8

Its 650 Volts under the hood.

MG2 driving the Front Wheels has 167 hp (123 KW)

MGR driving the Rear Wheels has 68 hp (50 KW)

Thats a combined power of 235 hp (173 KW) from 2 motors alone. The article says that its total hp is 268.

Does it mean that only 33 hp comes from the engine.

Can someone clarify.

hongcho · February 2005

I believe those individual numbers are their maximum outputs with their own conditions.

The combined output is what it is (I belive the ICE's maximum output is > 200 hp) because each outputs its maximum at different time.

Hong.

birger · February 2005

Hi,

A relevant (for me) alternative to the RX400h would be the coming M-Class, as I already drive the present one in 270CDI form which is considered to be economical among SUV's. The '06 M-Class gets new V6 CDI engines - diesel is normally due to price and consumption the only reasonable choice here in Europe. The first test of the 320CDI engine which will be fitted to the ML just came out - in the smaller, lighter C-Class. But since the current I-5 270CDI is also offered in that body I couldn't resist checking the fuel economy figures. The new engine (in the C-class) uses 3-5% MORE fuel and has worse CO emission. Coming from a company as experienced as Mercedes this astounds me. Projecting the same fuel economy figures percentage-wise on the M-Class, the future M-Class comes out quite a bit worse than the RX400h - bringing my decision to leave the three-pointed star closer. Too bad - I have been happy with Mercedes, but their hybrid debut seems years away, and they haven't got the knowhow Toyota has acquired over the years.

Of course, not everything is about fuel economy, but with one litre (not a gallon) costing around an Euro, it has to be taken into consideration.

Cheers,

Birger

sunbyrne · February 2005

Yeah, and Euros... man, that's real money. One Euro per litre at current exchange rates ($1.27 per Euro) puts gas at... $4.78 per gallon. Yikes. You think it's hard finding a Prius in the U.S. right now, imagine what it would be like at that gas price!

And now back to topic, imagine what the waiting list for the 400h would be...

plee1 · February 2005

The Edmunds review says the following:

Because the RX 400h has already secured more prelaunch orders than any other Lexus in history, the company is taking extra care to accommodate its customers. In September 2004, it announced a dedicated customer communication system that corresponds directly with the wait-list customers, updating them every few months on the status of their order. This retail ordering system allows dealers to assign a customer's name to a specific vehicle prior to production, and then track it through the distribution process.

Has anyone on the waiting list received any information regarding this system?

hongcho · February 2005

Not the tracking system, but I've received several paper letters from various levels of people from Lexus.

Hong.

farfig · February 2005

Mercedes has an increasingly poor reputation in the U.S....Consumer Reports rates nearly every one of their vehicles among the lowest in reliability and does not recommend their purchase. Everyone I know who owns one complains about the trips to the repair shop. On the contrary, Lexus consistently comes out ahead. Welcome Europeans to the world of fine Japanese automobiles!

sdctcher · February 2005

I am a Ford Escape 4WD Owner so I may have a bias.

I am impressed by the new Lexus Hybrid and if I were the King I would choose this car as my mobile throne, given its luxury. But, after my research, I have a few concerns about increases in estimated economy over the RX 330 and its use as a 4WD alternative. Lexus has not as yet given us a firm suggested MSRP price.

2005 Lexus RX 330

MSRP Price Range $35,775 - $37,175 (2WD - 4WD)

EPA Fuel Economy 2WD City 19 MPG

EPA Fuel Economy 2WD Highway 25 MPG

EPA Fuel Economy 4WD City 18 MPG

EPA Fuel Economy 4WD Highway 24 MPG

2006 Lexus RX 400h Hybrid

MSRP Estimated Price $44,000 - $54,000

EPA Fuel Economy AWD City 26 MPG

EPA Fuel Economy AWD Highway 30 MPG

As a Ford Escape Hybrid 4WD driver I have experienced a loss of power at high torque conditions (extreme 4WD) and now I read about the Lexus:

"Since the rear electric motor is air-cooled, theres a concern for excessive heat build up, which would cause the system to shut down (to protect itself), temporarily leaving the RX 400h's passengers stranded. Not good when the tide is coming in." (From Edmunds)

You do the math from the RX 330 to the RX 400h. I am not yet sure the increase in MPG compared to the Estimated increase in cost and/or loss of 4WD power is worth it, even if you are the King.

Mike

callmedrfill · February 2005

One, if you are using the RX400h in extreme off-roading maneuvers enough to overheat the REAR eletric motor, you bought the wrong vehicle!

Two, the FWD would still work. The vehicle wouldn't be dead, just the rear aux motor.

DrFill

robertsmx · February 2005

When you consider cost, consider feature content. As is true of any Toyota/Lexus, adding features quickly adds to the cost. RX400h may be better equipped, and RX330 can easily exceed $40K mark with basic add ons. Besides that, the difference should also reflect in performance area. I have my suspicion. If Lexus were to put a powerful V8 under the hood that delivered similar performance to the hybrid, we wouldnt be comparing costs.

cyclone4 · February 2005

My wife is trading in the original RX300 for the new RX400h this April. We are on the waiting list. I talked to a young and knowledgeable salesman at my dealer & he indicated to me that the gas mileage for the new hybrid would be more like 39 in the city & 29 on the highway. This 30 and 26 does not make much sense to me. I would think that the difference between the city & highway mileage would be considerably greater. Has anything actually been confirmed yet?

sdctcher · February 2005

In my original post I got the posted information direct from the Lexus Website so I would guess your saleman is more of an expert. I am only saying that buyers should check out all sources since salespeople are often the last ones to really know what they are selling and receiving commissions for.

Mike

cyclone4 · February 2005

You are so right. I just talked to the salesman again this morning and he corrected himself. He said that a representative from the Dealer just got back from a briefing at Lexus headquarters & that the gas mileage is indeed 30 & 26. Lexus told them that the RX400h is a totally different concept than the Prius, etc. The RX400h is built more on performance. It is very powerful, smooth, & quiet. The gas savings is still much greater than any other SUV around, but is not what one would presume based on other lower end SUV cars to this point.

electrictroy · February 2005

"Built for performance"?

Sounds like the Escape Hybrid.

troy

dylan hixon · February 2005

I spoke to Lexus of Manhattan yesterday, and they said that they have not heard anything official about the customer tracking system, and that they only knew about it from the Lexus public announcements.

The salesman said he expects cars to arrive around April 15, in assorted colors, at which time they will invite all of their waiting list customers to come in and see the car. They will then go down the list offering first pick to the first on the list and so on. He said that they may not even know the available colors, let alone the colors they will get, before arrival.

This is the same way they will handle the new GS about to come out.

dylan hixon · February 2005

EPA estimates are usually conservative, to take into account real world factors. I have always gotten better mileage than the estimates, even for normal dirving, and especially on the highway.

The Prius EPA estimates on the other hand, were far too optimistic, with very few drivers able to achieve them at all. I think that probably relates to some aspects of the hybrid drivetrain that the test cycle unintentionally favors (high part load efficiency). It resulted in much furor, and even talk of a class action lawsuit.

It will be interesting to see how accurate the RX400h estimates are. I will begin testing as soon as I get it! I hope others will do the same.

cyclone4 · February 2005

I was thinking the same thing. Maybe they are initially giving out very conservative gas mileage figures so that people will not have high expectations but then be pleasantly surprised.

callmedrfill · February 2005

One Ting: Comparing the Escape and RX is easy!



   The Escape is SLOWER than it's V6 counterpart, by about .5 to .75 0-60, depending on who is testing, but has gotten around 25-28 MPG combined in tests.



   The RX will be FASTER than it's V6 counterpart by the same, and it's economy will increase similarly.



   The Escape's EPA numbers and it's performance have matched so far.

   And Ting #2: The EPA doesn't know how to measure Hybrids.

   They're guessing on your car, based on tests that haven't changed in 30 years. They still can't figure GAS cars out!

   They're lost on hybrids! Since the Lexus can run up to 40 MPH on electric only, with Cummins-diesel level torque below 1500 RPM, expect much better mileage than the 18 MPG you get with the 330.

   DrFill

greatdane_1 · February 2005

Hi you guys,

Another Dane (living in London England)joining your forum.

I have been searching the web for some considerable time in order to find a test drive report for the RX400h, but without success. Only the official Lexus press release stuff.

I placed an order before X-mas 2004, and am expecting delivery in the UK in June/July (he says hopefully..).

I am keen to learn as much as possible about the car before then, so if you can help, I would be very grateful.

My current car is a Range Rover, but with the fuel prices in the UK going through the roof that will have to go.

Drove a RX300 for a couple of days, but found the power somewhat lacking. Hope the RX400h will be better.

Biger, how to I add a Danish flag to my posts??

kiwiguy · February 2005

For those interested there is a review of the RX400h in this months Car and Driver magazine:

http://www.caranddriver.com/article.asp?section_id=3&article_- id=9142&page_number=1

greatdane_1 · February 2005

Hi Birger,

Most certainly we would love to hear your detailed comments from your test drive.

What Luxembourg dealership has the RX400h in? Travelling on the Continent frequently, it would be a dream to pass through Luxembourg just to see the car 'in the flesh'. Please let me know.

Cheers

Carsten

PS. I originate from Aarhus too (now 30+ years in th UK)

birger · February 2005

Hi, Carsten!

Nice to hear from a fellow countryman - though you've been abroad for ten years more than me ;-)

I can't remember anymore how you put the flag - I did it a long time back, and I couldn't find any direct hint now, so maybe the feature is no longer available - Kirstie, can you help?

Apart from the excellent test in C&D that kiwiguy put a link to, I came across this Canadian one: http://macleans.auto123.com/en/info/news/roadtest,view,Lexus.spy?- artid=35385 It refers to the same press presentation in Hawaii, of course.

A number of European auto mags were also invited to that presentation, and they are generally thrilled. I guess therel'll be more and more in the coming weeks.

Unfortunately, the 400h at my local (and only) Lexus dealership was only on a two-week loan from Lexus' Belgian headquarters, so chances of having a test drive are rather slim - but check out www.lexus.be and call them. One never knows....

You mention that you felt a lack of power in the RX300 you drove - I can assure you that this will not be the case with the 400h. It's 0-100 km/h acceleration figures are in V8-powered X5/ML territory, and it feels like that. Of course, if you constantly wring every one of the 272HP out to max, you'll end up with a not very outstanding fuel economy - but still less than what you'd have had to feed one of the two mentioned SUV's.

What is most impressive is the way it can move off quite briskly from a stop on electric power only - like an electric powered train pulling out of a station, but on mute ;-)

I really liked it - and it's really mostly a matter of principle that makes me want to wait until I get the prices of the coming W164 M-Class Mercedes before taking the definite decision. Additionally, my wife seems to have taken a fancy to the design, which of course is very positive.

This weekend, the first pictures of the new B-Class from Mercedes came out (I would maybe prefer something more compact (and economical), but still with lots of interior space), and though she liked it, she turned it down because of the lacking 4WD. A pity that Mercedes haven't gotten as far in hybrid technology as Toyota, because this body style (sandwich bottom) could make an excellent basis for a hybrid vehicle (even 4WD) without sacrificing any interior space.

Cheers,

Birger

Kirstie_H · February 2005

I don't think it's available anymore!

dylan hixon · February 2005

I agree the comparison is easy, here is another way to look at it.

Compare the RX400h to luxury V8 4WD SUV's with comparable size and performance (EPA combined MPG):

Lexus RX400h 28

Mercedes ML500 15

BMW X5 4.4is 18

Porsche Cayenne S 16

In fact, the only SUV's of any kind that get better combined MPG than the RX400h are the 2WD and 4WD hybrid Escapes. The next car after the RX400h on the EPA "SUV" class list is the Toyota Rav4, 2WD, 4 cyl, at 26 MPG combined.

Only one EPA "luxury" class car gets better mileage (the Mercedes E300 cdi diesel at 30MPG combined), and no EPA "upscale" class cars do better. You have to go to the "family sedans" class (where the Prius is classified) to find a better performing gasoline car.

In that class, the RX400h gets the same 28MPG combined as the 4 cylinder Toyota Camry (0-60 9.2sec)!

Diesels are very efficient, both due to the higher compression ratio (above 20:1), and the fact that direct injections eliminates the throttle plate and it's associated low load efficiency reduction. But diesels have innate and potentially unsolvable problems related to emissions from particulate matter (soot), carcinogenic partial combustion products (like aldehydes), and fuel contaminants (like sulphur). Diesels are not now legal in CA, or any US state that follows CA's rules (like NY).

Hybrids are also very efficient, and their emissions are actually better than a comparable MPG gas only car. This is because they use battery power for the low load stop and go, and idle conditions that create most of the pollution. The gas engine is run mostly at higher load levels where emissions are lower.

Sorry for the long post,

Dylan

callmedrfill · February 2005

Let me state (again) that comparing the Escape to the RX400h is like comparing a McDonalds All-American to LeBron James!

   The RX is much heavier, more powerful, can tow more, is MUCH faster, has better dash displays, and is just as efficient!

   The Escape is efficient.

   The 400h is a Lexus.

   Do I need to explain more?

   Thank You.



   DrFill

greatdane_1 · February 2005

Hi again,

Does anybody know whether there is going to be similar models in the RX400H range as for the RX330?

I.e.

RX400H

RX400H SE

RX400H SE-L

If you know, what is the difference in spec. likely to be?

Hungry for information,

Cheers

Carsten

sunbyrne · February 2005

The presentation I saw at the Auto Show in Houston seemed to indicate there'd be only one trim level: fully loaded. Hence some of the steep price estimates seen around here and other places.

birger · February 2005

Hi, Carsten

I think sunbyme is right, also as far as the European models go. You might be able to choose if you want the sunroof or not, and even that seems to be standard (depends on who you ask - my LUX dealer gave me a bit of BS on the availability of the sunroof being dependent on Lexus wanting to have the car classified as Euro 6), and you can of course choose exterior colors. The interior is either charcoal or tan leather with aluminium trim - the grey leather and the wood trim will not be available, according to my (German and Luxembourgish) sources.

Cheers,

Birger

Lexus RX 400h and 450h

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