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Lexus RX 400h and 450h

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Comments

  • hejohejo Member Posts: 4
    I hope i did not make a mistake in calculating :
    4.54liter= 1 gallon
    1.6km = 1 mile
    7l/100km = 0.024g/mile
    ??

    6-7l/100km is the measured, believable minimum fuel consumption by experience of people driving the 400h Prototype.
    Lexus is promising 8.1l/100km as an average.
    This is extremely low for German conditions where the methods to measure are surely influenced by the absence of a gerenal speed limit.
    If i drive my Opel 3l 200hp 1/3 highway = 180 km/h
    1/3 outside cities = 80-90 km/h and
    1/3 inside cities i get a fuel consumption of about 11l/100km.
    If i drive extremely careful = not more than 120 km/h on highways, 80-90 km/h outside cities and with careful accelleration inside cities (not shut off at traffic lights!) i can achieve minimum consumtion of 8l/100km
    If transferred to the 400h i would expect a pritty good efficiency.
    What i did not like driving the 400h was the agressive behavior of the engine... instead of making it easy for the driver to drive at lowest possible fuel consumption the vehicle seems to be optimised to show power and accelleration, reacting spontaneously on micro-movements of your right foot.
    I think the focus of the Toyota engineers is to proove the 400h is a power Hybrid.
  • ptm123ptm123 Member Posts: 15
    The point is it does not make any sense to put ejection seats in jet fighters if they never leave the ground. I live in New England on a street with 7 Houses, of those 5 have SUVs of one type or another. None of them are ever driven of the road. The main rational for these vehicles is driving in snow, number of passengers, comfort and in one case towing. Do these things require an SUV, probable not, but if they are paying the frieght why should I care.

    As far as the RX400h is concerned it is interesting that I read a review of the RX330 which had the exact same statement about not being designed for off road use. Design for of road use implies mostly that underside components of the vehicle are protected. The underside of the RX is stated by Lexus to by designed for aero dynamics to improved mileage. In reality most SUVs are not designed for off road use. Does that mean that they cannot be used that way? Of course not? I drove cars on unpaved, washed out paths through the woods for years with no damage and never getting stuck. On the other hand my brother's son managed to tear the rearend of his Subaru SUV out driving down a Vermont cow path in the middle of the night. My point is manufacturers statements like this a more a reflection covering themselves from the stupidty of consumers than the capabilties of the vehicle.

    In the case of the RX400h rear motor design it is mainly common sense. The goal was to eliminate the drive train going to rear. The problem is the front electric motors are oil/water cooled, having the radiator up from makes this fairly easey. For the rear motor to have it oil/water cooled would require a raditor in rear of the vehicle or cooling lines from front to back. Lexus decided the disadvantages to these designed outwayed the benefits. The theory is that the requirement for powering all four wheels is intermitent. In my opinion this is the case whether or not your driving off-road. That being the said I am sure someone find a path up some mountain that would require constant use of four wheel drive. If that is your typical driving maybe this vehicle is not for you. In my case if I come up against this I have good set of mountain climbing boots which will take my anywhere I want to go.
  • hejohejo Member Posts: 4
    Wayne,
    i dont know the specific EPA methods but wondering to what extend they are different from the Standards here in Europe.
    No doubt there are driving profiles extremely utilizing the fuel saving features of a Hybrid Car and others where a Hybrid vehicle is hardly giving any benefits. I cant imagine that going at a speed of 110mph that there is much potential for a hybrid to reduce consumption.
    However using just moderate acceleration and deceleration (utilizing recuperation) should tremendously decrease fuel consumption.
    Moving a heavy vehicle being equipped with a large engine carefully is somehow useless because the engine would operate at very poor efficiency at low load. The Toyota Hybrid however is designed to either run the combustion engine either at optimum efficiency or shut it down, the electric motors do the job at low load conditions.
    Am i wrong?
  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    one doesn't need to go off-road in order to NEED the overall performance of an SUV such as the RX300.

    Mother Nature provides just enough "off-road" experience for me.

    Anyway, my RX300 is likely to go off-road occasionally, just as my AWD Chrysler T&C often did, but out of necessaty, not for SPORTS reasons.
  • cyclone4cyclone4 Member Posts: 2,302
    Thanks Hejo! So, if I understand the conversion here (0.024gallons per mile) then one gallon will drive you as much as 41.66 miles by being very careful with the accelerator. If that is the case, then it is outstanding. Did I calculate this correctly? What is a reasonable estimate for mpg for a very careful driver? Can he attain 35, 38, or perhaps 40 mpg?
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    The point is it does not make any sense to put ejection seats in jet fighters if they never leave the ground.

    I know in So CA people are passionate about their SUVs & 4X4 PU Trucks. Many Real Estate sales people use the RX300 series for showing property. There is still a lot of homes & land that is only accessible by dirt roads. Many get washed out during seasonal rains that we are now experiencing. What do you think would happen if I were to tell a client that I could not show him the property in my RX400h SUV because it is not Really an SUV. Kiss that commission good-bye.

    Many other people spend a lot of time in the desert. There are sandy back roads all over to explore. I for one would not like to get caught in a sudden rain storm stuck in a sandy wash because Lexus did not think I would want to use an SUV off road. It will be interesting to see how it plays out as I am sure the biggest percentage of pre-orders for the RX400h are in CA.
  • cyclone4cyclone4 Member Posts: 2,302
    Speaking for myself (and probably lots of others), I have had enough of this discussion concerning off road driving with the RX400h. I honestly could not care less about off road driving. I am certain that the RX400h is more than adequate to take my wife & I everywhere we want to go under various weather conditions and be very comfortable and safe doing so. Lexus is NOT stupid about these things. So, those of you that want to go hunting, and drive in the wilderness with no roads, you should buy something other than the RX400h or the RX330 for that matter. Now, if you talk to me about the fact that Lexus is not making the laser cruise control or the smart key available for the RX400h, that is another matter.
  • maxhonda99maxhonda99 Member Posts: 1,289
    "What do you think would happen if I were to tell a client that I could not show him the property in my RX400h SUV because it is not Really an SUV. Kiss that commission good-bye."

    You're hilarious!
  • jamese777jamese777 Member Posts: 18
    There's a good review of the SUV by Pulitizer Prize winning reporter Dan Neil at the following address:

    http://www.latimes.com/classified/automotive/highway1/la-hy-neil23feb23,1,2569993.story?co- ll=la-headlines-sports
  • yerth10yerth10 Member Posts: 431
    "4.54liter= 1 gallon "

    Thats British (Imperial) gallon friend,
    US Gallon = 3.78 l.

    I dont know why USA (along with Liberia) is holding on to gallon when all other countries have converted to Metric. But that L / 100 km is weird. Why not you guys say km/l.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    New Car and Driver review....

    http://www.caranddriver.com/article.asp?section_id=3&article_id=9142
  • xcelxcel Member Posts: 1,025
    Hi Hejo and Cyclone4:

    Do a google on my name and follow up with actual Fuel Economy and experiences in an Acura MDX, Mercury Mountaineer, Ford Ranger, Buick LeSabre, Honda Accord, Toyota Corolla, and Honda Insight. That should be enough to give you an idea what a hybrid and non-hybrid of varying sorts are worth at the edge of their respective fuel economy envelope(s) when setup and when not. 50% > EPA (City/Highway/Combined) over a tank is not the easiest thing to achieve and this comes from a relatively experienced hypermiler.

    Please consider your own Fuel consumption no matter if that is piloting a hybrid or not. Can you today begin to achieve 50% > EPA (in your case, Euro – Urban/Extra-Urban depending on your driving locale) in whatever you drive? It is possible with the proper setup, right conditions, and some training but to do it for tank over tank, a month after month, year round, lifetime for the average driver? Not a chance in hell let alone how tough it is for some of the best Hypermilers on the planet to achieve year round and for a lifetime in particular.

    With the above, the HSD equipped automobiles (RXh is one) are even tougher to hypermile then the Honda IMA setups. There is a lot of basis for this statement although I do know of a few > 1,000 mile tank Prius II’s out of Japan (lack of tank bladders) and an individual here in the states that has taken his very own Prius II > 900 miles at 86.x mpg.

    Good Luck

    Wayne R. Gerdes
  • dylan hixondylan hixon Member Posts: 44
    Good article.

    He effectively points out the stubborn stupidity of the folks at GM for refusing to pursue hybrids for cost reasons. However, they talk about the future being fuel cell vehicles, which require many of the same systems! Like batteries, motors, inverters, charge circuits, controls, and software. Toyota has a huge lead in these components, and, not coincidentally, now arguably has the lead in fuel cell vehicle development.

    I was interested by the statement:

    "The driving experience is virtually identical to a conventional vehicle. There is a start/stop button instead of an ignition key-lock."

    I thought the 400h would not have the smart key. Does this mean you put a key in and then press a button? He says no key. Perhaps he is confusing it with the Prius.

    Dylan
  • frenchornefrenchorne Member Posts: 31
    I just received this information from my Lexus dealer.

    It looks like they are building the RX 400h in 2 different ways:

    Option 1 has a Sticker Price of $52,545.00 including freight. It's fully loaded and the included options are:
    EY (Rear seat entertainment)
    HS ( Heated front seats)
    ML (Mark Levinson)

    Option 2 has a sticker price of $50,705.00 also including the freight but no EY option.

    For the first run, they are building a total of 434 units. Out of those, 391 are option 2, and 43 are option 1.
  • markrogomarkrogo Member Posts: 50
    434? Ugh!

    It sounds like I will be waiting a long time as #23 at Stevens Creek Lexus...
  • lexusguy1lexusguy1 Member Posts: 11
    I am #1 for the RX400h hybrid at a dealer on the East Coast. Anyone interested in taking my place?

    Email me: ashy_73@yahoo.com
  • maxhonda99maxhonda99 Member Posts: 1,289
    The Option #1 & 2 information may just be for a certain region. For example, all Lexus' that come to the Northeast come with Heated Seats and very few come with Mark LEvinson. Since it gets cold in the Northeast I don't see them shipping cars up here without heated seats. It wouldn't make customers too happy.
  • frenchornefrenchorne Member Posts: 31
    You are right about the region. The dealer told me the 434 units are for a 10 state midwest region around Chicago. Heated seats are also appeciated in the northern parts of this area.
  • bob_grahambob_graham Member Posts: 63
    An update

    We bought the Grand Cherokee and we are still on the list for the Lexus RX400. I can tell you the new Grand Cherokee Limited drives every bit as good as the Lexus. Smooth, very quite, fast, fit and finish is complete. No rattles or road noise. This was noted in the recent Truckin SUV Feb review. They noted that the interior is Lexus like in execution.

    We will decide on the RX 400 for my wife when the Lexus dealer in Concord CA calls us.

    Here are the details.

    The Jeep drives flawlessly. Reminds us of our Lexus RX300. It's very smooth.

    The buying experience was excellent. The dealer spent an hour on a Sunday night going thru all of the features. They did not rush us.

    HOBLIT-HAYNES DODGE CHRYSLER JEEP
    801 MAIN STREET
    WOODLAND, CA 95695-3596

    2005 Grand Cherokee Limited
    5.7 V-8
    GPS 6 disk CD
    Supplemental side air bags
    Rear Backup system
    Sirius Satellite radio
    Tire Prssure monitor
    Popular 4X4 group
    Chrome Clad Wheels

    Sticker - $41,815

    Cost $38,502.00
    fees $45.00
    Fees $8.75
    Sub $38,555.75
    Rebates $3,500.00
    Net $35,055.75
    Sales Tax $3,180.85
    Lisc $311.00
    Total $38,547.60

    I added full maintenance plan for 5 years / 75K service every 6K minles and Max Care extended warranty for 5/85K

    Cost $2160 for both plans.

    $12160 down payment.

    48 months @ 5.99% 670/month
  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H Administrator Posts: 11,148
    A reporter with a major national magazine is looking for a few car shoppers who are in the process of searching for a car and are deliberating between a hybrid and conventional vehicle. He would be interested to talk to people considering the upcoming hybrid Toyota Highlander and/or RX400h.

    We are also looking members who went through similar deliberations but have already made a purchase, including the Ford Escape, Honda Civic, Honda Accord or the Toyota Prius. Please send a brief description of your experience along with your contact information to Kirsten Holguin at kholguin@edmunds.com by Thursday, March 10th.

    MODERATOR /ADMINISTRATOR
    Need help navigating? kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name.
    Share your vehicle reviews

  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    We bought the Grand Cherokee and we are still on the list for the Lexus RX400.

    Another consideration, the GC will tow a 6500 lb. trailer. The RX330 is only rated for 2000 lbs. the lowest in it's class. I imagine the RX400h will be even less. With a base price of $50k you will be well over $60k with tax and license on the RX400h. They probably won't be giving rebates for at least 6 months on the RX400h.
  • falcononefalconone Member Posts: 1,726
    The GC is a great choice but the V8 engine REALLY LOVES fuel. At current fuel price levels you won't be happy. The V6 is the same engine that is in the Liberty which is what I owned and it is underpowered for that vehicle. Imagine it in a heavier truck? The Lexus fit and finish is definitely better than the GC, but I'd opt for the GC V8 as the price is still a lot cheaper than the Lexus. The price difference alone would mitigate the add'l cost for fuel.
  • markrogomarkrogo Member Posts: 50
    But the additional fuel still means more environmental impact.

    I am getting the 400h over the RX330, for example, not because I will save money with the hybrid, but because I'll do a tiny bit to save the planet. (Yes, I could do more with a Prius... We all draw the line somewhere.)

    I'm expecting to average $2.25 a gallon here over the next four years. I ought to save 200 gallons a year or so... It's only about $1800 over four years, but it's a start on the payback (and it continues if I keep the card / gives me more in resale based on how Prius is holding its value).
  • markrogomarkrogo Member Posts: 50
    Has anyone heard from their dealer about money factor and residual on these babies? I'm contemplating leasing for 4 years figuring that the pace of navigation system improvements and hybrid improvements might make me want the replacement model soon after it's out.
  • jfzjfz Member Posts: 45
    I am number 3 at my Lexus dealership for the 400h. I was informed by the manager that he will be getting three units a month. I was asked whether I wanted option group 1 or 2, and what my interior/exterior color preferences were. My wife prefers silver/gray with option group 2 ( 2 deletes the rear DVD system.). The price is MSRP without markups and trade-in values will be crunched out closer to delivery.

    I agree with the posts that say that the price difference can not be recouped in fuel savings. However, the 400h is quieter, quicker, highly anticipated, and may retain its value better. Sounds like fun!
  • cyclone4cyclone4 Member Posts: 2,302
    We (my wife will be driving it most of the time while I have to suffer :-) with LS430) are on the list for the RX400h for the same reasons (environmental, fuel cost, fun to drive, etc.).
  • jfzjfz Member Posts: 45
    We will have the same car combo. But I doubt that my wife will buy the line that I am suffering in a 2004 LS430. Enjoy!
  • frenchornefrenchorne Member Posts: 31
    Hopefully, 2006 RX 400h owners will also be able to take a $2,000 Clean-Fuel Vehicle tax deduction. The site that lists qualifying vehicles is included below:

    http://www.irs.gov/newsroom/article/0,,id=104549,00.html

    Every bit helps.
  • kenworthykenworthy Member Posts: 7
    I thought they delayed introduction so they can build up an inventory. 434 vehicles doesn't sounds like much of an inventory when you have 20,000 people on a wait list. It doesn't look well for me, I am on a wait list for the Highlander Hybrid (couldn't bring myself to pay extra for the Lexus name). I wonder how many of the HLH they will produce to start and if that will be affected by the RX? Who will get priority?
  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    the low preduction rate might just be Lexus's acknowledgement that a HIGH performance hybrid only appeals to those with "boy-racer" mentalities.
  • frenchornefrenchorne Member Posts: 31
    I interpret this number to be for the first month in one region (Chicago). With a couple assumptions you can get to the >20,000 number.

    434 X 5 (Regions) X 12 (months) = 26,040

    Just a guess on my part. Each dealer may only receive a few every month. Good luck to you on the Highlander.
  • electrictroyelectrictroy Member Posts: 564
    ~$50,000 for an appliance that's going to eventually rust away & be junked?!?!?

    Some people simply have too much money on their hands.

    troy
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Some people simply have too much money on their hands.

    Amen!!!
  • cyclone4cyclone4 Member Posts: 2,302
    You make no logical sense. According to those that know what they are talking about, $50k for this type of vehicle is very cheap. Just as the original LS was underpriced & became a huge hit, my prediction is the same for the RX400h. It is very obvious that gagrice wishes to knock the worthiness of this vehicle. You have stated your case on numerous occasions. The bottom line is that you are WRONG!
  • hongchohongcho Member Posts: 28
    > ~$50,000 for an appliance that's going to eventually rust away & be junked?!?!?

    I guess anyone who buys cars costing more than $50K (any luxury SUVs, etc.) falls into this category.

    But then again, most people sell it before it "rusts away and be junked"...

    On a side note, I do have my doubts about my deposit into this waiting list at the moment...

    Hong.
  • rfruthrfruth Member Posts: 630
    Agreed 50,000 grand is a lot of money, I couldn't stop shaking long enough to even sign the papers but for someone who has been eyeing a 7 series Beemer ...
  • falcononefalconone Member Posts: 1,726
    Unfortunately there a great deal of cars that cost over $50k today. I think that is an insane amount of money to spend on a car. Look at the Caddy SRX with the V8 engine. Isn't that near 50k? Is that worth it? What about a loaded Chevy Tahoe? That's in the 40's. Who pays that kind of money? NUTS!!! If I had to buy a car today (luckily I get a company car), I'd buy the VW Jetta. 20 grand and a nice ride. I still think the Lexus RX400 is going to be priced less than 50k.
  • andyux2andyux2 Member Posts: 17
    I'm selling my original 1983 Toyota Supra for $800 to my nephew. Back when I bought it, this tricked up vehicle sold for $16,000. It now has 250k+ miles on it, is still in great physical and working condition and I think I want to buy another quality car. I'm choosing to buy the 400h. I think it's worth it, even with the cost of new batteries every so often. I like the fuel efficiency and the environmental statement. My fuel efficiency will increase by over 50% and I'll be able to pass the smog test with no sweat. By the way, back then, my middle-of-the-road house cost 76 grand. Houses around here now are averaging $350 - 450,000. So $50,000 for a car I'm going to keep a while is well worth it. Especially with the Toyota/Lexus badge.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    The bottom line is that you are WRONG!

    That is a strong indictment coming from a person that has never owned the vehicle in question. I have only repeated what the pundits and writers have posted. It is a very expensive vehicle for what you get. They do not ride as well as our 15 year old LS400. Just like the HAH it is unlikely that it will get near the mileage the EPA has tacked on to it. It is worthless off-road. Cannot tow as much as any of it's competition. The $50k PLUS is a lot for what it is. After you add whatever else the dealer tacks on you will be lucky to get off the lot under $60k. For that kind of money there are a lot of AWD vehicles that will outperform, out ride and out handle that over rated wannabe SUV. Anyone that buys one has lost all sense of logic!!
  • stevedebistevedebi Member Posts: 4,098
    "For that kind of money there are a lot of AWD vehicles that will outperform, out ride and out handle that over rated wannabe SUV. Anyone that buys one has lost all sense of logic!!"

    I think you missed his prime statement (emphasis mine):

    "I like the fuel efficiency and the environmental statement. "

    Logic and money/vs/value ratios have nothing to do with that equation.
  • callmedrfillcallmedrfill Member Posts: 729
    So what do you get?

    Do I have to repeat the LONG list of virtues again?

    This is getting quite tiresome. Some people just don't get it, and never will.

    This new benchmark vehicle will change the automotive industry, again!

    To own the most efficient, best-built, most luxurious, best-riding SUV of it's generation is a STEAL at $48k!

    Five years from now it'll still sell for well over $30k.

    That's VALUABLE! You see what you want to see.

    DrFill
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    "I like the fuel efficiency and the environmental statement. "

    That may be the only redeeming value that the RX400h will attain. I think it is premature to speculate on mileage. As we know EPA is highly flawed. It will not be as clean as the Prius and puts out nearly 3 times the GHG as it's smaller sibling. It will only haul 5 people so where is the advantage? I swear PT Barnum must have been reincarnated as a Toyota/Lexus marketing manager.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Do I have to repeat the LONG list of virtues again?

    Absolutely NOT. It has nothing that anyone that needs an SUV could use in a vehicle.
  • andyux2andyux2 Member Posts: 17
    Okay, I'll admit it. The only off-roading I ever do with our Explorer is drive over the curb while parallel parking. The reason we're getting another SUV is because we've got two big dogs who are too big for the old Supra. And as I've said, in my particular instance, I (ME!) will improve MY mileage by 50%. We not interested in towing, off-roading or "boy-driving". We just want a plush vehicle that doesn't eat gas and pollute as much as the other SUV/LUVs. One that we can stuff the dogs in and drive around town or go up to the cabin - on a paved road. I guess I'll just go lose my sense of logic as I write out the check.
  • cyclone4cyclone4 Member Posts: 2,302
    You are making some ignorant statements. Have YOU ever owned this vehicle? What makes you such an expert on it? You try and show me a terrible review by pundits & writers. Have you read the review by Pulitzer prize winning reporter Dan Neal. He is amazed by Lexus and how this vehicle will sell for only $50K. The link was originally given on post #690 by jamese777. Here it is once again just for you. Read it and weep!

    http://www.latimes.com/classified/automotive/highway1/la-hy-neil23feb23,1,2569993.story?co- - ll=la-headlines-sports
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    You are making some ignorant statements. Have YOU ever owned this vehicle?

    I did not say it was worthless for off-road usage. I did not say you cannot tow as much as any of the competitors. I did not say you cannot haul 7 people. I went for a ride in my tax man's RX300 and that was more than enough to convince me that it was too small for anything I needed an SUV for. I just don't believe there are as many people that want to buy an SUV that is NOT an SUV. Vehicles like the RX400h should not clutter up the SUV category. It should just be put in with all the other sedans along with the PT Cruiser. It skews the statistics and brings undo ire against real SUVs. To compare it to the MB & BMW SUVs is a real joke. It doesn't even compare to the MDX or XC90. Maybe the leather smells better, I sure don't see any other reason for it to exist in the SUV category.
  • falcononefalconone Member Posts: 1,726
    In all my years of reading forum messages, I never had pity on someone like you. You frequent discussions on cars you have disdain for, but in actuality you LUST for them. You just can't justify it, so you put it down. No one in his right mind would spend so much time putting down something they REALLY wanted in the back of their mind. I feel for you Gary. Take one for a test drive. You may just take the plunge. Oh... by the way.. the Lexus RX330 does drive better than the original LS400. Not by much though. That car is indeed a great vehicle. Oh.. did I mention you overpaid on the maintenance too?
  • PF_FlyerPF_Flyer Member Posts: 9,372
    Time to back off the personal stuff here. Please stick to the topics and stop discussing each other. There's nothing but a bad ending at the end of that road.

    Thanks for your cooperation and participation.
  • globalengrglobalengr Member Posts: 1
    I also have my name on the waiting list for the RX400. I currently have a Honda Civic Hybrid but feel like a "sitting duck" on local California freeways! I have ridden in the RX330 and definitely feel safer. The issue that plagues me is if the RX400 is worth another $30K, especially when the MPG is at about 30% less than my Civic!
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    MSNBC has new review today of RX400h:

    http://msnbc.msn.com/id/7148712/
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