Nissan Titan vs. Ford F150

jcmdie · December 2003

Personally, if I were in the market right now for a pickup, which I won't be for at couple more years, I would notopt for side air bags or 4 wheel ABS. Yes, I have a family and I do care about them. In my opinion side air bags are overkill and a waste of money. I want to be reasonably safe, but I don't feel that I need to live in a cocoon either. I also don't believe in sunroofs in trucks. It's for luxury cars, not trucks.

bowke28 · December 2003

you are the exact type that the nissan people said would NOT buy the titan...there are people who believe a truck should ride like a truck...they asked WHY? if it rides like a car, but loses no truck functionality, is it still a truck?

if it has a sunroof, but still has a full truck functionality, does that make it NOT a truck? your statement is pretty closed minded.

jcmdie · December 2003

I look at it as adding unnecessary frills. I know that a lot of buyers now buy a truck as thier car and want a soft ride etc... I probably like a few "frills" that another would think was useless. That is why they make so many configurations of trucks. It's just my opinion or what I like in a truck. I do know that I don't like paying for options that are packaged in that I have no use for. Many car companies package to sell you more than you wanted. Most 1/2 ton trucks will handle very poorly when loaded to thier limits and then some. The soft suspentions just don't hack it when you have some real weight back there. My concerns I'm sure are in the minority here.

bowke28 · December 2003

a soft feeling suspension doesnt automatically mean its actually soft. after driving the 2003 f150 an hour, it feels like i need back surgery. the 2004 has MORE truck-like capabilities than the 2003, AND rides soft enough to take a long trip comfortably. many paople are buying crew cab pickups to be the "do all" vehicle, so they dont have to spend more for 2 different vehicles. its actually more economical that way, and buyers know it. therefore, manufacturers are building what buyers want.

if you have the money for 2 vehicles AND a work truck, more power to you...but wouldnt you save some cabbage if your truck did it all?

kg11 · December 2003

I have a GMC 2500 HD that I tow and hual with and a Corolla for my 46 mi commute. The fuel savings pays for the Toyota and the longer intervals between $35k pickups some here would consider profit.

kip

bowke28 · December 2003

you are at the extremes...but i understand. a 2500 HD isnt good for commuting, but a 1/2 ton crew cab isnt as bad...if necessary.

nvbanker · December 2003

You get it!!! Exactly why I drive a large SUV. It handles my clients in luxury for work, tows my weekend toys, and hauls my impulse purchases home on the spot! I was able to dump my sedan and pickup, combining them into one vehicle. It is cheaper for me, the insurance alone saves much more than the gas savings from a Corolla. Of course, my work Sedan wasn't a Corolla anyway....IYKWIM.

bowke28 · December 2003

you forget also the money you paid for the corolla...to save money on gas...

thats like someone buying 10 widgets for the price of 9...but only need 3.

nvbanker · December 2003

I was just pointing out that the insurance payments (insurance is very high in this town) alone that would be saved would more than cover the gas, let alone the cost of the extra car. I don't get the logic of folks who flip me off in my SUV, would love me to own 2 or 3 cars instead. Like that conserves resources!!!

bowke28 · December 2003

you need to check out the "i dont like SUVs, why do you?" board.

nvbanker · December 2003

and got my [non-permissible content removed] flamed off, so I don't go back there anymore. That's a hostile crowd of open-minded, clear thinking green people filled with love.......except for me & my truck.

Haven't seen a Titan on the road yet. Has anyone?

bowke28 · December 2003

for about a year...we have allies if you want to join! ;-)

ANT14 · December 2003

"you obviously dont have children...if you did, the airbag debacle with the f150 would bother you to no end. MOST, not ALL, buyers will have families with children in the trucks."

This is the same situation I mentioned earlier about vehicles that failed to have certain items, because of a transition or market trend. As I stated earlier, at one time I got a vehicle without side airbags, when competitors did. Previous to that, I had a vehicle that had jus traction control, but not Anti-Skid system there were coming out. Did I care? Not really. I count numerous items first, before such extras.

As I've mentioned in some other boards. Stability Control systems make good driver's better, but doesn't substitute for carelessness of other's that drive with such systems, thinking they are invisible.

And as mentioned earlier by JCMDIE, some people do not wish to have such extras on their vehicles, that are packaged and buddled in ways that bring on higher costs, and complexity.

Which is why the F-150 has 5 different interior themes to please just about anyone. And numerous bed lengths, cab lengths, equipment levels, etc. to please just about any demographic.

bowke28 · December 2003

"Which is why the F-150 has 5 different interior themes to please just about anyone. And numerous bed lengths, cab lengths, equipment levels, etc. to please just about any demographic."

i dont disagree...thats what ford does. but imagine you are the CEO of a company, and you would still return 90% of what you do now, by cutting 40% of your costs. wouldnt you do it?

kg11 · December 2003

The corolla, and it's insurance, and it's gas. Total about $350/mo is paid for in fuel savings by not driving the 8 mpg/city pickup when I don't need it. I could have gotten by with less pickup. Most half tons can be optioned to tow my boat and at 15 mpg/city in a cheaper truck the Toy wouldn't make sense.

But; If you put you and 4 of your friends in your Titan (or F150) and hook-up the 26 foot boat and head for the coast the same time as me, I will have caught all the fish and headed home by the time you get there (if you don't overheat on the hills)

kg11 · December 2003

When the Toyota is paid off, it'll be worth about $6500 and paid for in fuel savings.The GMC will have 50k-60k less mi than if I drove it exclusively. The way investment is loosly defined here, I'm making more than $15k by driving the Corolla to work the next 4 years

nvbanker · December 2003

you're challenging me to a duel, huh? Ok, let's do the math.

Before I bought the first SUV to handle all my vehicle needs, I had a Town Car for work (an econobox will not work in my profession), and a Compact Pickup for recreation. Here's the figures.

One SUV:

12,000 miles per year @ 14 MPG Premuim fuel @$1.80/gal = $1542.

Work Car + Recreational Pickup:

7200 work miles per year @ 21 MPG Regular fuel @ $1.60/gal = $548.

4800 recreational miles per year @ 20 MPG Regular fuel @ $1.60/gal = $384.

Combined expense with 2 cars for fuel = $932.

Fuel cost savings = $610 per year.

Insurance costs for second commuter car in this state are $1000 per year, just for liability coverage alone. Then, there's the cost of the car, even with just a lease, it would be $300/month, or $3,600 per year.

Save $600 per year, and spend $4600 per year? And I'm being very conservative here. Doesn't work for me!!! Saving a little gas, but holding 4000 lbs of iron in my back yard that somebody else could drive?

nvbanker · December 2003

I'll go look at the SUV thread again, but I doubt anything has changed. Probably still has the same players, playing the same tune, and the topic is obviously slanted towards those who are smug in their hand wringing moral indignation - these would be the people who flip me off as they pass me. I can only make my case to reasonable folks. Even the hosts are harsh on that thread.

triat · December 2003

Your reasoning is skewed, but proves my opening point.
hehehe! Put a Japanese nameplate on the Ford, and it still wouldn't feel right. The ergonomics & seating are ok, but the egress is still ridiculous for my long legs/big shoe size.
Tundra has been a good truck, I just need more interior space; and the utility bed package is going to be sweet for hauling bikes/race equipment.

nvbanker · December 2003

Well, what the hell, I tried, triat......

kg11 · December 2003

1) You pay too much for insurance.I pay $634 for the third car (counting the wife's)

2) You don't drive enough to justify the added cost. I live in central CA and most of my family live in eastern WA. I drive 22k-25k per year.

3) Huge difference in MPGs from what you quoted.
GMC 2500 HD w/8.1 and 4X4(6000lb), 13 hwy/ less than 9 city. Corolla 32/38.

Putting 18-20k on a $15k car means NOT buying a $35k truck every 5 years.

I don't have my calculator handy but I'm sure that you'll agree that there comes a point where the numbers work, and when I added it all up in Feb I came up with a $3800 per year difference, so now I drive a go-cart all over the place, and just use the truck to tow the boat and do home improvement projects.

nvbanker · December 2003

Yeah, there's a break even out there somewhere....just not for me. I applaud your methodology. Seems we're both doing the best thing for our situations.

triat · December 2003

Well actually, carry your logic from earlier a little further. Put a blindfold on me, would I be able to tell the difference?? : )
Thanks for not jumping on the "big shoe size", that was way too easy!!

nvbanker · December 2003

I wear 11's, so I can't talk about shoe size. I don't remember banging my foot as I got out though. In either truck.

lennx · December 2003

"1) You pay too much for insurance.I pay $634 for the third car (counting the wife's)"

That depends on where you live.

I was thinking $1000 was about right unless it is 15 year old winter rat.

And I did not like the 2004 F-150 interior either.

ANT14 · December 2003

I know someone who her and her husband each had their own car. Each would take one of their kids to each of their schools (seperate schools). Each had a typical sedan, one a Ford Taurus, the other an Accord. They bought an Expedition and got rid of both sedans, they did their math and found out it was easier to just get everyone in one car, pay for the fuel on that car, and just share a car since both work near each other.

People were preaching at them why did they buy an SUV, when it wastes more gas, yadda yadda. IN the end, they save $1900 a year, by having one less vehicle. Turns out the Expedition is much less to insure, and while it's fuel costs will be higher, still less than having 2 sedans running.

That's another senario to consider.

keanec · December 2003

Well they held off as long as they could! The Titan comes out and wham...the F150 has rebates slapped on it. Of course Ford says they are putting the rebates on because of the Success of the F150???

direct quote: " "We think these are modest incentives, and basically a sign of the success we've had in the marketplace," said Ford spokeswoman Karen Shaughnessy. "

Here is a quote about the rebates: " Ford told its dealers Thursday it was offering a $1,000 rebate or a 3-year, 0-percent loan on the F-150, as well as other loan deals such as a 6-year, 2.9-percent loan. The rebate and 0-percent loan aren't offered on the four-door SuperCrew version of the truck, which accounted for almost half of new F-150 sales in November."

It's nice the supercrew is selling well - over half of all the new F150 sold were supercrew. What does that say about those regular cabs and 8' boxes that all those farmers want? It seems to me Nissan really went after the heart of the market.

ANT14 · December 2003

The Titan's introduction has nothing to do with rebates/incentives, everyone knew they were coming because it's expected.

Here's a story on it: http://www.thecarconnection.com/index.asp?article=6668

There's greater rebates available, but on the previous version F-150 now called "Heritage".

bowke28 · December 2003

started in september...less than a week after it was launched, they slapped a $500 plug on it.

keanec · December 2003

1st -wasn't the initial incentive for previous Ford owners and people trading in GM & Dodge full size?

2nd - The story quoted only said what I said in my post. Any previous rebates were for what I mentioned in1 above. As to everybody new it was coming - like who said it was coming this soon? Analysts thought they would eventually need them, but right away? Ford themselves have said they wanted to stay away from the incentive game with the new F150 for many reasons; the first being it costs more to make the new F150 than the old and the margins are less!

But nobody thinks that Nissan announcing the pricing of the Titan at a cheaper price had anything to do with it? It is just a thought.

Also, think about it, the F150 in November of 2003 only had a 10% increase over Nov 2002. With the heavily incented, and plentiful, 2003 F150 around, and only a total 23,000 between the two? The Ford dealer in my town has at least 40 2003 on the lot right now, and they sold many over the last while - I know 2 people who bought the F150 2003 in nov because of the great price.

I don't buy they put incentives on because they are selling so well! Sorry.

ANT14 · December 2003

Earlier this week I read the factory is considering going onto a third over-time shift to keep up with demands. Therefore, it is selling extremly well. Out of 3 factories producing F-150's, there's only one producing the new version. The other's have not ramped up yet till the spring and coming summer, those are now producing the Heritage version.

hairong · December 2003

Who said anything about "put incentives on because they are selling so well!" Even from the direct quote you quoted, direct quote: " "We think these are modest incentives, and basically a sign of the success we've had in the marketplace," said Ford spokeswoman Karen Shaughnessy. " I got the impression that "modest incentives are a sign of success".

Ford said new F150 are selling very well, they are increasing the production, they are putting incentives on it. I came away thinking, they are trying to drive up the demand. Even if this promotion is only break even, the loss of profit by the incentive equals to the gain made on the extra units sold, Ford will be winning. They can claim that they "sold" more in Dec. and are gaining (or losing less) market share.

As to the new incentives have anything to do with the introduction of Titan, you bet they do. Look, every maker sold more full size pick ups in November than they did last year, yes, even the Tundra. Yet, they are adding new/more incentives. They are trying to cannibalize the demand, a preemptive strike, so to speak. Just like what others did to Ford back in August/September.

That all said, I still think Titan will be a success. 1. the full size PU segment is still booming; 2. Titan is a good product and Nissan's sales target is reasonable (maybe too low); 3. the pent up demand of a true truck for import lovers are too strong.

jrc346 · December 2003

Hairong stated:
"As to the new incentives have anything to do with the introduction of Titan, you bet they do."

I think this is not the case. People that are waiting to buy a Titan haven't in many cases even gotten to drive one yet, so Ford has no idea what kind of market share the Titan will take or build. If anything the incentives, which have been with the F-150 almost since launch, were started due to fierce competition from GM and Dodge. Not so much because Ford doesn't have a excellent new pick-up, but more because the incentives GM and Dodge models have are rather large.
I think the main crowd that Nissan will appeal to is those that are currently driving foreign products (i.e. Tundra). Sure there will be some customers coming over from the big three to the Titan, but IMHO, not in huge numbers. Anyway, only time will tell, and for the Titan time has just begun.

bowke28 · December 2003

for a second. sales are soooo good that they want to give some back?!?!?! whatever.

an incentive is for one reason, and one reason only. there is trouble somewhere. if the reason given is actual, then all they are doing is ruining the resale value even more.

midnight_stang · December 2003

I'm confused, the nissan salespeople are complaining because Ford is offering a rebate on their truck?

Rebates are made for selling trucks. Selling more trucks makes the cost to build each truck go down. Is it a 1 to 1 ratio between the cost of rebates, vs the savings for building more trucks? Who knows, probably not, but in the end, people want the best truck for the money.

Maybe Nissan needs to give up some profit to make their truck more affordable/desirable?

bowke28 · December 2003

funny you mention that. nissan made the price point of the titan about $2500-$3000 LESS than the ford, for just such an occasion. the transaction prices should be in nissan's favor (lower).

nvbanker · December 2003

I see the 04 F-150 everywhere around my town already. It's selling well. Incentives don't insult me, front end or back end, frankly. It's what we do over here. Just because Japan rarely does - doesn't make it evil. The customer wins, and if he has to give some of it back at trade in time, that's ok too. If you want great resale, you will pay for it up front. It all works out.

triat · December 2003

Some good points all !

When the F150 came out in KCab's I thought Ford made a huge mistake. Most(>50%) people want Ccab's but it's like each dealer only got one token CCab. Sure enough, the KCab's collected. Now I'm seeing F150 Ccab's now accumulating.

I have to admit it's ironic seeing new '04 F150's lined up with new '03's they can't sell.

jrc346 · December 2003

Bowke28, you stated:

"an incentive is for one reason, and one reason only. there is trouble somewhere"

Says you I guess, but I disagree. But then what do I know. You're the dealer here.

I honestly don't think that Ford is extremely worried about the Titan being that large of a threat to F-150 sales. Only because Titan is a completely NEW product that is coming into a market loaded with very loyal customers. If anything the the new Tundra has the advantage over the Titan in taking away sales form the Big 3 in that it has been in the market longer to establish a market base.

triat · December 2003

I agree and sort of disagree. Yes, truck owners are more brand loyal group(of course there weren't as many full size truck choices as say cars,suv's).

But I do also think folks shop more now. 10 months ago with only sketch of a Titan, you wouldn't have had much luck convincing me to even looking at a Nissan! Nice cars/suv's, but a full sized truck?

ANT14 · December 2003

"I have to admit it's ironic seeing new '04 F150's lined up with new '03's they can't sell."

Actually, from last months sales, only 11-15K were the new F-150 version. The rest of the sales were the "Heritage" model. The other 2 factories producing the new F-150 haven't/and won't, start up till spring/summer of next year.

The PickUp Truck segment has the most loyal buyer's, and in that segment, the F-150 tops above GM. Analysts have already stated that if sales are lost of other manufacturer's, it'll be from Dodge and Toyota, rarely someone from Ford of GM.

Another point: 60% of models, are the upper trim versions where Ford makes the most profits. Therefore a few rebates here and there, will not break the back. And as pointed out by some other analysts, considering the new version is more expensive to build, it offsets it considering the upper trim models are making up for a larger piece of the pie. Hence, they break even and then some.

nvbanker · December 2003

It's clear Nissan copied the interior of the Ford. But Ford did such a great and tasteful job designing this truck. At least for me, the interior is the #1 thing that attracts me to a car or truck. It's where I live. If the outside is nice looking, that's great for you looking at my truck, but I'm inside, and that's where I get the most satisfaction from driving. Good ergonomics, a comfortable seat, driving position and attractive displays make a world of difference to me. I give Ford some real Kudos for jazzing this truck interior up so nicely!

lennx · December 2003

Can you get the Titan as a 6 passenger? My SuperCrew is a 6 passenger and I fill it up about once a week.

keanec · December 2003

Yes you can in the US in two trim levels XE & SE. In Canada only the base XE with no options comes in 6 passenger.

keanec · December 2003

How do you know Nissan copied Ford? I thought the Titan was announced and shown first? Also, doesn't the Titan have an interior similiar to other Nissan products? Is the F150 close to any other products?

To me, IMHO, the Interior of both the F150 and the Titan are more Japanese/European than they are American. I was always under the impression that Ford copied Nissan - but I don't know for sure.

keanec · December 2003

"Ford Motor Co.'s new F-150 pickup did poorly on bumper crash tests performed by the insurance industry, requiring an average of $1,500 US in repairs in each of four tests."

The article goes on to say that the new F150 actually did worse than the old F150. They were disappointed the Ford had taken the opportunity to improve its crash protection with the brand new F150. The tests were all done at 5mph and it is not for safety but for cost of repair. The Insurance institute said that a vehicle should not sustain $1500 damage when you hit something moving at a fast walk.

jrc346 · December 2003

Well that is alarming! I still really like the truck, and not everyone is going to get in a low speed accident, but DANG! I guess that will mean higher insurance costs. Still doesn't change my overall feelings about the pickup, but Ford screwed up here. Hopefully they'll address the problem!?!

keanec · December 2003

I went to pick up a rental trailblazer last week for a girl in my office. Her dad dropped me off and proceeded to back into the front bumper of the Trailblazer (before I signed the papers :-)). Hit it dead in the license plate probably not much faster than 3-5 mph. Hardly any damage showing but the total repair cost came to C$900!

These small little bumps (what they were testing for) shouldn't cause damage; that is why we are suppose to have 5 mph bumpers! Granted, I don't think trucks have 5 mph bumpers, but they still should absorb something.

nvbanker · December 2003

I wondered about that, actually - but the F-150 feels a lot like my Navigator inside, but for a truck, so I figured, since it's been acknowledged, that the F-150 was the truck Nissan copied for the Titan, that they copied the interior pretty closely. When you put the two pictures together, as someone did on one of these boards, it is strikingly similar, just as the Tundra interior is strikingly similar to the previous F-150 interior. The Ford truck has always seemed to be the one to emulate, I think just because it has sold the most.

However......I could be wrong too!

On the bumper thing, Ford is notorious for skimping on the bumpers. The original Taurus had a great bumper that when tested in this fashion, fared quite well. Two years later, it looked the same, but had been cheapened up so that it sustained some considerable damage when hit by the 5 mph pole. It's one of those things I wish they would attend to detail on, but not a deal breaker for me, as I have really never used a bumper that way yet.

triat · December 2003

With all the money Ford spent on advertising, you would think a couple of those bucks could have been put into bumpers. Btw, isn't the very purpose of bumpers to protect the vehicle?

After months of rough & tough F150 new frame commercials, now we find out be careful parking it, and oh, please don't touch the bumper??

Ok, I better get off my sarcasm soapbox! I wonder how the Titan will do, & how both will do in the crash tests...

Nissan Titan vs. Ford F150

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