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Toyota Prius vs. Honda Civic Hybrid v. Honda Insight v. ?
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Comments
Just kidding of course. Specialized circumstances and a unique opportunity presented itself. Did I mention that it sold in an hour? I'm flying out to drive home my new replacement Prius next week.
I posted earlier about the LED taillights. A proven safety factor is their instantaneous illumination upon brake application, much faster than an incandescent light. It's all relative, and I'm not sure how much a few milliseconds advantage would help with a semi bearing down on you, but I think the greater advantage is the LED's apparent brightness compared to incandescent. Someone might post comparative lumens and whatnot, but put your Prius next to any "old fashioned" filament-bulb brake light vehicle day or night and you'll easily see the visible improvement in brightness on brake application. Not quantifiable, just my 2¢.
Dennis
___Since this thread is about HCH, Prius, and Insight
___If you are sick of the US’ dependence on foreign oil supplies, the Prius and HCH aren’t exactly the right answer but who am I to say
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
-juice
As noted on another board where you posted the same $5000 figure for the battery, that's not just the battery you're getting for $5000. Also, why would anyone buy a battery for a '04 Prius now? Do you think some folks have managed to put 100,000 miles on their '04 Priuses already? That would be a lot of driving. Zero consumer demand tends to raise prices for parts.
HCH has 201 volt battery with twenty 7.2 volt modules. Prius has 28 of those modules. That makes it 40% more.
"Plus the Prius has two motor/generators instead of one and it also has a power splitter. It is hard to see how the Prius can be profitable. "
Prius does not have a transmission, saving about $1,000. On top of that, Toyota intergrated the Inverter and APU into one Power control unit. HSD does not have clutch or flywheel either. Dirvetrain and inverter radiator and AC condenser are all intergrated into one unit as well.
Dennis
Actually, the HCH has a 144 volt battery pack with 120 1.2 volt D cell NiMH batteries. You can shop around online for the cheapest ones from any manufacturer. The battery modules for the Prius are made only by a single manufacturer, that being Panasonic.
You are right. I thought they group them in 6 packs like Toyota. Honda connects all 120 in series. That means if one fails, all go.
" You can shop around online for the cheapest ones from any manufacturer. The battery modules for the Prius are made only by a single manufacturer, that being Panasonic."
Honda use Panasonic Nimh battery.
http://www.peve.panasonic.co.jp/e_news.html
Don't confuse with consumer NiMH rechargable battries with hybrid NiMH battries. Consumer NiMH life cycle is about 1,000 charge cycles. Hybrid NiMH are designed to last 10,000 cycles.
Toyota does not have to use Panasonic NiMH batteries. I believe Panasonic makes the highest power density and pulse recharge cycle(10,000+) NiMH battery currently.
Dennis
Dennis
-juice
-juice
The only car in the EPA list that scored a 10 on emissions for all 50 states. You hybrid boys eat your heart out. And it was lowest cost per mile to drive.
#127 of 129 Re: [ateixeira #126] by gagrice Jun 19, 2004 (1:15 am)
That is a good question and I have found the answer. It looks like they have about a 200 mile range.
Even if this is 250 or 300 miles, it is unacceptably low for a family car.
That, combined with the fact that half the trunk is eaten by the large cylinder of CNG fuel.
THis delegates the CNG civic to fleets of largely city cars, delivery vehicles, police cars and the like. Or ast best as second, commmuting cars. Not Family cars.
Sure today's hybrids aren't perfect, and someday down the road they will be made obsolete by some version of power, maybe the ones you're discussing. But today, it is a wonderful way to reduce emissions and gasolene consumption with no infrastructure problems at all!
Ed Headington
I used to be a big fan of Hybrid tech, but when i saw that they DO NOT Deliver their EPA promises, I am far more sceptical.
I support CNG MAINLY for FLEET Vecicles that are always close to a CNG pump, and do not need a long range.
IF you really worry about ... CNG ëxplosions", perhaps you should also Dump all these fancy gas and hybrid cars and switch to a MODERN (NOT the ones you remmeber from the 80s) DIESEL runing on extra-low Sulfur, non-combustible Diesel Fuel.
AND pay 25 cents less per gallon, AND get 25% MORE MPG.
THAT is the answer, not the silly hybrids.
EUROPE has understood that.
Oh, and besides, is ANY manufacturer finally making a TRUE profit on ANY of the Hybrids they make>
Toyota CLAIMS they now do, on the prius, BUT I suspect they DO NOT include the major R&D costs they spent developing it.
I am not sure how fuel cells got into this conversation. I don't see how they can gain over CNG ICE's. They still will require Natural Gas.
I am in total agreement with your assessment of the hybrid cost to manufacture. When the government quits handing out cash and incentives. The manufacturers will pull the plug just as they did with the all electric vehicle. That brings us back to diesel as the only logical way to save energy. The technology is available to bring emissions to reasonable levels. The only way to totally eliminate pollution is to run everything on nuclear energy, and that will not happen.
I believe they do include the R&D costs. Consider licensing the technology to Ford and Nissan as well as short development time of THS(HSD was renamed for 2nd gen). Project G21 start in 1994. In three years, they designed, developed, tested, manufactured and sold such a complex automobile, the likes of which had never been produced by Toyota (or any other manufacturer).
For more info, read page 4 of the pdf. http://www.sae.org/automag/techbriefs/03-2004/1-112-3-36.pdf
Dennis
Current gas-electric manufacturers are doing without major government help such as HOV access and some tax break.
"That brings us back to diesel as the only logical way to save energy."
I guess you missed out the 80mpg Super Car project during Clinton administration. The big 3 came up with diesel-electric concept cars until the government(Bush) pulled the plug on it. You will not believe how much of our tax dollars went into that project. It was well documented and written in 3 parts at http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/specials/car/one/chi-startingup-special.special. You will need to register but it is worth the read.
Maybe you can access this and see if that interest you without registering. http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/specials/car/three/chi-sc-day3- graphicstory.htmlstory
Dennis
The government wants to encourage new technology and I think they should, not sure about how much or for how long but does anyone think the U.S. gov will cut out incentives now that the big 2.5 (detroit) are starting to show up for the hybrid party ? Would it be a good thing to reward the Japaneese but not GM & Ford ? Yea its a global economy but still.
Offering tax credits to those that purchase these fuel saving and environment saving vehicles is a much more direct approach. It is not as expensive to the tax payer and it goes directly to the consumer that is helping to save energy and the environment. When we give tax breaks to corporations it all ends up in some executives pocket and very little trickles down to research and development. Giving money to Universities for R&D is probably a bit safer. If you give someone a $3000 tax credit for purchasing a Prius that costs Toyota say $3000 more to build than a conventional car. The money ends up where it is spent on R&D and higher manufacturing costs. If Ford spends a $billion
on R&D for X car and it is a flop. So what, they did that with the Edsel and many other failed projects. If the auto makers think they will get reimbursed for every penny they spend on R&D, you know the fraud factor is going to be there.
-juice
* 4 Honda Civics, 284,000 miles and 38.0 mpg
* 6 Honda Insights, 347,000 miles and 46.0 mpg
* 6 Toyota Prius (model years 2002 and 2003) 380,000 miles and 41.1 mpg, and
* 2 Toyota Prius (model year 2004) 16,000 miles and 44.6 mpg"
http://www.fuelcellsworks.com/Supppage907.html
Dennis
Acceleration 0-50 mph 100% SOC: 11.7 seconds
Driving Cycle Range w/o Accessories Fuel Economy: 48.8 mpg
Driving Cycle Range w/Accessories Fuel Economy: 35.6 mpg
Honda Insight
Acceleration 0-50 mph 100% SOC: 11.3 seconds
Driving Cycle Range w/o Accessories Fuel Economy: 56.2 mpg
Driving Cycle Range w/Accessories Fuel Economy: 42.7 mpg
Toyota Prius(Classic)
Acceleration 0-50 mph 100% SOC: 10.4 seconds
Driving Cycle Range w/o Accessories Fuel Economy: 49.5 mpg
Driving Cycle Range w/Accessories Fuel Economy: 39.8 mpg
HCH Fact Sheet: http://avt.inel.gov/pdf/hev/hondacivic2003.pdf
Insight Fact Sheet: http://avt.inel.gov/pdf/hev/hondainsight2001.pdf
Classic Prius Fact Sheet: http://avt.inel.gov/pdf/hev/toyotaprius2002.pdf
According to those results, the classic Prius is faster and more fuel efficient than HCH.
Dennis
I prefer the Civic. I like the stick shift better. It feels like you're really accelerating (even the CVT feels faster). I like that the Civic operates like a normal car in all aspects, except one extra meter (Battery).
.
Prius has too many "quirks" for my comfort. Can't use 10W-30 or warning lights will come on. Can't jumpstart it, because the 12V battery is hidden in the trunk. When driving, you feel disconnected from the road. Even the gear shift is strange (no park).
troy
Boy did this one pop out of nowhere
USB, if you are still around, you posted the CVT based Insight numbers? Anyone interested in FE knows the 5-speed is much faster and receives much better FE due to the transmission and lean-burn.
Honda Insight 5-speed
Acceleration 0-60 mph 100% SOC: 10.6 seconds
Acceleration 0-60 mph 0% SOC: 11.9 seconds
Fuel Economy: Do you even have to ask with an Insight running at a 92.5 lifetime mpg? A Prius will never reach that number
Good Luck
Wayne R. Gerdes
Untrue
There are jump points under the hood by the engine like on every other car.
backy, "Toyota Prius v. ??? (fill in the comparison)" #343, 10 Mar 2005 4:54 pm
Culliganman(I hesitate to use "STP" for fear it will compromise my mpg's)
Stupid Toyota. They designed a car that has hypertension disease. The more I hear about the prius (problems/weird quirks), the more glad I am I didn't buy it.
troy
On the new Honda Accords, if you leave you gas cap loose accidentally when you fill-up with gas a message 'Check Gas Cap' appears.
I don't know about you, but I like the clearer more direct message better.
I enjoy your comments Electrictroy, keep on truck'n
MidCow.
P.S.- Is this one of the software glitches the Prius owners are just now starting to complain about ???
But yeah, I do think it's dumb the Prius suffers from hypertension disease, and can't use any other oil except 5W-30, else it will break down.
troy
What you observe on boards like these is very unscientific because someone with a problem will seek out boards like Edmunds.com for solutions.
When asked if they'd buy the same car again Prius earned the highest score of any car, so it's not like anyone has buyer's remorse. Much to the contrary, actually.
-juice
And actually "reliable" isn't really a CR rating; the Prius is rated CR's top rating a red circle=excellent. But then again the car is made of Toyota parts and the tranmission is simpleier.
Also user satisfaction is rate excellent, but I wonder if this is poartially "fad" and "emperor new clothes" syndrome.
What is funny the FUD about the Prius microcomputers and software. All cars in the last ten years have sensors, microprocessors, software. In this aspect the Prius is not different from other cars. So it controls the HSD ysstem; big deal! Next time you hear "drive by wire" think computer software controlling my throttle!.
It is not that boards such as Edmuunds are unscientific , it is just that they are made of reader's opinions and typically tend to be skewed making them not a statistically accurate sample set.
Juice, didn't you use to be an active participant on the AOL: auto boards before they were over-moderated to death ?
6-speed an loving it,
MidCow
New clothes may be a fad, sure, but among every new model it still ranks the best. Credit where credit is due, I think.
not a statistically accurate sample set = unscientific
Aren't we saying the same thing?
I was on rec.autos in the mid 80s, remember that place? But since then it's been mostly Edmunds.
-juice
It is a big deal, because of the computer control of electronics is more integrated due to the electric motors and generators. A lot more room for software errors than an ICE-only car. The Prius has all the computer software of a normal car, plus additional software... BTW, I started a topic for Prius software problems:
http://tinyurl.com/6hhsn
I try to keep my cars 10 years, at that time I'll have more than 320,000 miles.
My battery warranty goes away @ 150,000.
If it goes flat before the car is finished I'll have some options.
1.Buy the OEM battery pack.
2.Other aftermarket, lower cost, guaranteed battery packs may become available.
3.Test for bad cells & individually replace then.
4.Drive the car with lower performance. On a personal note, I should still get EPA estimates for the car.
Why did I choose HCH over Prius?
One reason is I don't think option #4 is possible.