Toyota Prius vs. Honda Civic Hybrid v. Honda Insight v. ?

midnightcowboy · March 2005

Actually the logic behind the HSD is very simple in terms of a software program, a basic process control system with a couple of inputs and a couple of outputs. I am sure it was tested ad infinitum. In addition, I would imagine there are some fail-safe overrides. If I were a Prius owner, this would be the least of my worries.

However, any system will fail if there are electric gremlins such as complete loss of power , look at what VW has been fighting for years or look at an older car when the wiring harness deteriorates. More attention has been paid to making longer lasting wiring harnessess and better connectors and connector interfaces to mitigate this problem. Much more complcated is TCD, ABB, fuel metering, even the electronics on the radio. Modern cars have many multiprocessors, some like the Lexus LS430 have more than 23 separate microprocessors. Electronics are very reliable and I think you would be suprised at the simplicity of the actual software programming in cars. It is not nearly as complicated as the current one million lines of code Windows XP operating system.

Good Luck,

MidCow

midnightcowboy · March 2005

not a statistically accurate sample set = unscientific

Aren't we saying the same thing?

Okay I agree

Yes, the Prius deserves some credit!
(6-speed, manual shift) .NE. Prius

YMMV,

MidCow

stevedebi · March 2005

Midcow: Have you seen the software? How do you know it is simple?

I suspect there is a lot more than you realize. The system has to analyze a lot of data in real time in order to distribute the power to the various components both driving and charging, and the infinite combinations between.

Interesting you should mention cars dying on the road. I started the "software" discussion because several people have had the Prius just die dead on the road, and the only thing that fixed it was for the dealer to re-program the memory. That tells me Toyota isn't fixing the problems...

zitlow · April 2005

Yesterday I test drove a 2005 Toyota Prius that I was going to purchase. We found seats uncomfortable, the speedometer hard to see, and the touch-screen controls distracting. The car felt tinny and cheap. Now considering 2006 Honda hybrid civic. Tell me: is the gas motor connected to the electric motor in the Civic so that the Civic could be driven with battery/electric motor disabled? What advantages do YOU see of the Civic Hybrid over the Prius? Which gas/electric motor combinations--Prius or Civic--are most dependable and less subject to catrastropic failure? :confuse:

larsb · April 2005

I can speak with knowledge about the HCH, and with "hearsay" about the Prius...

The Honda IMA system allows cars to drive without battery assist at all.....for example, I drive a 2004 Civic Hybrid and I ran my battery all the way down to the last bar this week, and the car drove fine...I lost "battery assisted power" so that it if I had been racing someone I might have been in trouble, but the car drove just fine and did not fail in any fashion.

I have only once recently even HEARD of a Civic Hybrid "dying" on the road, and it was because of some POSSIBLY battery related problem that is yet undiagnosed, since the owner could not duplicate the problem at the dealer (of course.)

I have heard far more reports of Prius cars "dying" but remember - the Prius owners SWEAR by their cars, to the tune of 94% in a recent owner poll said they would buy it again. So if they "die" it's in a very small percentage.

ateixeira · April 2005

The Civic is more conventional, if you like that. It looks, feels, and drives more like a conventional car.

C&D felt it was more fun that the Prius, too.

I like the Prius a lot more than you do, though. Try the HCH out and let us know how you think it compares.

-juice

electrictroy · April 2005

PRIUS:
There are a lot of "quirks" with this car. I don't call them problems, but the car is kinda picky. For example, if you use the wrong oil (like 10W-30), it will turn on the "check engine" light. Also if the battery dies, you WILL be stuck.

CIVIC:
This is virtually identical to a normal car. Just with a battery added. And if the battery fails, you can still drive using the "backup" battery. You won't be stuck.

Also, it's more fun to drive. You can "burn rubber" and rev to redline.

INSIGHT:
Not as nice as the Civic, but it gets 70mpg, which is why I ultimately bought it.

troy

misterme · April 2005

"Not as nice as the Civic"
Are you sure about this?
From one point of view the Insight is primarily a commuter car, the same as HCH but less utility (seats and cargo space).

I haven't ever driven an Insight but looked it over pretty good a few months back when the dealer had them in stock.
Correct me if I'm wrong but it seems that as you drive it the tiny size wouldn't be noticed, unless you look behind you. (Thus being "as nice" as another car ?)

Please keep in mind that I've always had Insight envy but require 5 seats.

falconone · April 2005

Insight doesn't have side airbags or safety features like VSC. No utility but would make a nice commuter car if you don't mind not having those safety features. With all the SUVs out there I want all safety features I can get. I also heard that there is no A/C in the insight. Maybe the older ones ? Can anyone confirm??

seatacademic · July 2005

I'm glad that this thread was recently ressurrected, because I'm rather hoping that some changes in the previously undiscussed '05 and upcoming '06 hybrid options will reveal things that make this decision easier for me.

Ultimately, I may not get a hybrid at all. Both the '05 HCH and the '05 Prius are right at the edge of my self-imposed price limit. The Accord Hybrid is too expensive to consider, which is unfortunate since it seems to be a great option as well, ignoring price. I have already discovered something that a lot of people enchanted by hybrids have to learn- that hybrids are not currently going to save money in the long-term regardless of mileage, and that their emissions ratings are amazing- but you can get a gasoline engine car that is still much better than the average, and that the technology is changing quickly enough that it might be worth waiting for the next generation for some large improvements.

Hybrids, after 5 years, still seem like very young technology, and the fact is that regardless of what data we have on them, the majority of what we need to know about them is still theoretical, because nobody anywhere has owned one for long enough to establish a lot of important trend information. This doesn't concern me as much as it might, because Honda and Toyota both have, on average, very consistent dependability over time, and I would almost accept that the hybrid would as well based on reputation alone.

I can't think of any other specific questions right now but this one:

The previous hybrids all had exceptionally low emissions; however, the ratio of greenhouse gases to smog-producing pollutants (notably the HCH) was very unevenly distributed. What about the newer models?

More to come, I'm sure.

(Edit: fixed a tiny typo that grossly changed the meaning of a sentence. )

midnightcowboy · July 2005

Insight three ways to buy:

Insight Manual 5 -speed without AC
Insight Manual 5 -speed with AC
Insight Auto- CVT with AC

I think very few were ever purchased without AC.

railroadjames · July 2005

O.K. .I too have a perspective on the 2 serious contenders(Prius & Honda Civic Hy) I think you wouldn't go wrong with either selection. They're both well received by critics galore. Motor Trend & Car & Driver have seen the light when it comes to hybrids and their application to today's needs. These cars once were considered "TOYS" but no more.
Since I own a Prius I have become a consciencous hybrid driver simply because something happens just after you become acclamated with the secondary screen. You begin to find ways to much improve your mileage. Seriously ...IT really happens. As to the Civic Hyb. I'm not sure its the same but I'd bet that it's similar.
Psychologically there's another surprize with a hybrid ....You feel you're contributing to a lifestyle that reenforces your positive attitude and its eco-friendly "better" way of saying screw OPEC. My smarter car says it has arrived and can deliver what it professes.
railroadjames

ateixeira · August 2005

You begin to find ways to much improve your mileage

I don't doubt that for a second. Most people even report trying to break their own records.

Just keep in mind you do that with any vehicle you drive. I've observed a huge variance just from driving styles. As they say, YMMV.

-juice

railroadjames · August 2005

I disagree....In conventional cars there's not a computer screen giving you various feed backs on gas consumption. The Prius does exactly that by showing a detailed graph of the system's workings. Thus, you become much more aware of gas consumption and what you can do to improve it.
Railroadjames

ateixeira · August 2005

Sure there is!

A lot of cars have trip computers nowadays and read the instant MPG as well as trip averages. Subaru has this standard on the Legacy, Outback, and Tribeca.

I got mileage between 13 and 30 mpg in the Tribeca depending upon where and how I drove. Drive it like you stole it in the city and you'll get 13 mpg. Drive it smoothly on the highway without going too fast and you can break 30.

This useful feedback can improve your mileage a lot.

-juice

blane · August 2005

railroadjames,

You wrote "In conventional cars there's not a computer screen giving you various feed backs on gas consumption". That's not so. I drive a 2004 Accord with a Navigation system. When I press the Info button on the dashboard, then the Trip Computer line on the touch screen, it displays a moving bar indicating instantaneous mpg. I've found it very helpful to experiment with feathering the accelerator pedal while glancing at the display. It makes quite an mpg diffence to know what's happening. The Accord is a very conventional car otherwise.

Just another reason that we would find it hard to live without my voice-command navigation system if I purchase a 2006 Civic Hybrid for my wife.

falconone · August 2005

How do you like the Tribeca? I love the interior, can deal with the nose but that rear end needs some work. Great value too! Hope you're liking it!!

Sylvia · August 2005

Please take that to the Tribeca discussion - thanks!

ateixeira · August 2005

Yeah, let's keep this about hybrids. I do think that feature is an advantage they offer, because most cars don't.

-juice

kmh3 · August 2005

The main reason I bought a Hybrid is I am starting an 80+ mile per day commute (40 each way) and I estimate that a 50+ mpg car would save me almost $1000 per year (I live in CA where gas prices are steep). And I believe that gas prices will continue to trend upwards. Thus my hybrid purchase acts as a hedge bet against increasing gas prices.

I also like fully loaded cars (power everything, cruise, ABS) Hybrids are only slightly more expensive than their loaded brethren, you can't compare a Civic Hybrid to a Civic HX for example because the options aren't the same (no air would kill me). But HCH compared to a Civic ES is quite favorable (I don't want a sunroof anyway).

Given all this, the hybrid cars were my most economical option and the tax break really clinched it. I toyed with waiting until Janary 2006 for the new tax credit but made an emotional decision to buy the car now. 2005 HCH is end of model year so I got it for well under list with no waiting which was another bonus but wasn't really why I chose Civic over Prius.

Here is my list of considerations that led me to choose Civic over Prius:

I wanted a manual + for HCH
I wanted a hatchback + for Prius (I ended up settling for a sedan)
I wanted the best price + for HCH
I wanted best handling + for HCH
Was more concerned about highway mileage than city + for HCH
I like smaller cars for commuting + for HCH
I like normal styling + for HCH (this was only a minor consideration)

Both Prius and Civic are great cars, I settled for a sedan (no hatchback), but I got my manual tranny and a smaller car that I can zip around in and park anywhere.

If I was more concerned about city driving, or had to have a hatchback, or wanted a bigger car, and could live with the CVT, then the Prius would have been a clear winner.

The insight was never really in the running, it would save me a bit more, but the high wind areas I must drive through and the lack of utility (2 seater, 300+ pound payload) really removed it from consideration by me.

gagrice · August 2005

You made the right choice if you drive in areas of high wind. The Prius is not known for it's handling of cross winds. Part of the problem is the tires on the Prius. To change those on a new car is another hit. You should have no problem averaging 50+ MPG on your long commute.

molokai · August 2005

That's funny..I've never had any problem driving in cross winds and in truck wakes. Must be the great after market tires I put on. I also heard some people modified the alignment with good results. I never had to do that. I've driven in fierce snowstorms, rainstorms and the car is pretty solid. Definitely better than my Liberty. but that goes without saying. Anything handles better than an SUV.

whitegrub · August 2005

kmh3 said" I toyed with waiting until Janary 2006 for the new tax credit but made an emotional decision to buy the car now"

I have not been able to find any information on the "new" tax break other than that it is going from $2000 in 2005 to $500 in 2006 to $0 after 2006 (on the IRS page
http://www.irs.gov/newsroom/article/0,,id=107766,00.html ).

Can you site a source for the new tax break.

Thanks,
W

stevedebi · August 2005

Take a look at the Hybrid Tax Credit forum. I posted the link to the new legislation. Looks like around $1600 for the HCH and maybe as much as $2400 for the Prius. Tax credit, not a deduction. Starts 1 Jan 2006.

gagrice · August 2005

Must be the great after market tires I put on.

I think you missed the previous poster's point. He felt the price difference between the HCH and the Prius was too much. The poor handling characteristics of the Prius with stock tires is well documented. You should not have to spend another $500 for tires on a new car for it to be safe on the highway. That would have made the price break between the HCH and Prius even higher. I still think he made the best choice for a commuter vehicle.

falconone · August 2005

I looked at the HCH but it was too boring. I usually always changeout my rubber too. The OEM tires on most cars are horrible. I had terrible problems with my Audi with their OEM tires (hyroplaned like crazy!). Most auto enthusiasts always upgrade their rubber. I intend to do the same when I get my Prius. I can't wait!! Oh... I took a Prius a while back on an extended test drive up in PA. Handled great and it was kinda windy that day too (15-20 MPG gusts). Worked for me! I also checked out some of the forums and most folks like the handling. Check it out for yourself.

railroadjames · August 2005

Sometimes ya just can't take the threads here and Gary yours is over the top. Yes the handling is not as good as a few other cars. Its not going to beat a Vette on a road coarse. Its not even as good as a 300 ZX but wait ...Its not suppose to be as good or even on a par with many other cars. It is a good all around handler but it would be better if Toyota had given the Prius the appropriate tires that would remedy some of the handling quirks. Cost wise, I see my next set of tires costing $248.00 after I get a full 34,000 miles out of the original set of rubber. I'm @ 24 K miles and other than windy days when cross-winds tend to be a bit annoying the car is more than respectable and reliable as I see it. So lighten up Gary. The Prius may not hold the rails but it does quite well in most respects.
Railroadjames(Remember....Want World Peace...Use Your Turn-Signal)

gagrice · August 2005

So lighten up Gary.

I think you need to reread my posts. I said the same thing you just repeated. Obsession with things, in this case the Prius is not healthy. No car is perfect, just as no man is perfect. All I was doing was agreeing with another poster that had purchased an HCH instead of the Prius. If you cannot handle that you should not visit a thread that pits one against the other. Now that you have forced me to respond I will say it again. The Prius is a POOR handling car as delivered from the dealers.

falconone · August 2005

The PRIUS is NOT a poor handling car at all. Have you even driven one? I have driven and owned very expensive cars and I am acutally going to buy a Prius after having a great deal of seat time in one. It is certainly no Bimmer but it holds its own and is really a fun car to drive. I'd like to see the steering firmed up a bit, but overall not a bad handling car at all. If we have to talk handling, let's address the issue of poor handling SUVs that rollover and have poor brakes. That's another thread. Please... get over your Prius envy already.

PF_Flyer · August 2005

Let's stop the personal interaction and stick to the vehicles here please.

There's a definite history here, and we've been through this before. So everyone should understand the kind of comments that you need to avoid.

amendelson · August 2005

I am trying to decide between the HCH and the Prius. Do you know anything about the air conditioning cutting out on the HCH when the electric mode is being used? Otherwise, any thoughts on how to make my decision?

whitegrub · August 2005

Thanks. There should be more informtion available in addition to what you have now that Bush has signed the the energy bill.
The wife is test driving a Prius tommorow and will see what the dealership says about the 2006 credit.
It seems that a credit is better than a deduction, assuming you are not doing anything too fancy with your taxes.
Thanks,
W

falconone · August 2005

The HCH is a mild hybrid and only shuts down at stop lights. The Prius A/C is electric and will run all the time. The both get similar mileage, the edge goes to the Prius according to some long terms tests from Edmunds, CR and some National automotive magazines. The margin is slim between the two. Drive both and see which you like better. You can probably get a better deal on the HCH, but you won't get the content of a Prius.

stevedebi · August 2005

"The HCH is a mild hybrid and only shuts down at stop lights. The Prius A/C is electric and will run all the time. "

Well, if we're going to get into all that (which I hope we don't), we can also go back to the fact that the HCH will run without traction batteries, while the Prius cannot. However the Prius can run without the ICE (for a couple of miles) while the HCH cannot. You pays your money, and you take your choice.

falconone · August 2005

I heard that the HCH may actually go to the full hybrid scheme as the Prius. Can someone confirm that?

larsb · August 2005

As far as the HCH going "full Hybrid" that's not really the case. Here is what Honda has announced:

"will be able to cruise at low speeds using only the electric drivetrain"

Here is a link which explains it a little bit more:

http://www.treehugger.com/files/2005/07/information_abo.php

The word I have seen is that the HCH will NOT be able to start from stopped using only the electric drivetrain, as the Prius can do. I will turn off the gas engine when the car is at sufficient battery level and low enough speed to allow the electric drivetrain to power the car.

So not Full Hybrid, but better use of the existing IMA technology.

kmh3 · August 2005

The 2006 HCH air-conditioner will run either from the gas motor or its own electric motor (used when the gas engine shuts off). 2005 and prior HCH models were dependent upon the gas engine to run the compressor, so they tended to get a bit hot inside when the gas engine shut off.

On honda's website they have a nice video showing the whole thing, including the new electric motor that runs the compressor when the gas engine is off.

slickwill · August 2005

It all boils down to personal preferance. Personally I want an automatic transmission and a car that will fit four. The Prius impressed me much more than the civic. The technology, everything. I bought mine several months ago and drive it from Los Angeles to Utah on a regular basis. It has handled great. I hit some windy areas about 50 miles past Vegas and have had no problems. Maybe I just know what to expect. I am sure many people will prefer the Civic which is great too. If you are deciding, just pick the one you like. As it stands right now most people are buying the Prius, it has cool looks, cool technology and a good price. I am sure Civic will catch on too. If I wasn't to buy a Hybrid, I would have spent 35k for a car, so I save money there too.

stevedebi · August 2005

"The 2006 HCH air-conditioner will run either from the gas motor or its own electric motor (used when the gas engine shuts off). 2005 and prior HCH models were dependent upon the gas engine to run the compressor, so they tended to get a bit hot inside when the gas engine shut off."

I wonder if they borrowed it from the HAH? That system has a lower capacity A/C when stopped, as I recall.

jonholden1 · August 2005

I'm confused - isn't everyone getting away from the fact that a hybrid is defined as "something...having two kinds of components that produce the same or similar results"? I understand that some gas/electric hybrids, such as the Prius, may be more heavily subsidized by the electric motor, but shouldn't we be more concerned about the figures? The technology is certainly interesting and worthy of conversation, but this "mild hybrid" nonesense is exactly that - nonesense. If something is claimed to be a hybrid, then the claim is either true or false, not less or more so.

I sense that my opinion may be dismissed by some, but I would propose that the Prius is overrated in this way and cannot be defined as MORE of a hybrid the the HCH. The fact is that each engine is subsidized by the motor in a unique manner and that neither can be considered more of a hybrid. For example, who could claim that a CVT is more of a transmission than a 5AT?

That said, having driven and researched both, it is clear that the Prius is more succesful in its goal. However, the environment aside, one cannot get away from the fact that the total cost of ownership of a Prius (over five years), including gas consumption, is said to be marginally greater than that of the HCH.

falconone · August 2005

The Prius has some advantages over the HCH.

More content
Ability to run on electric to 42 mph
hatch
electric a/c

Each one has its good and bad attributes. You can't go wrong with either.

mossyman · August 2005

I've been looking to purchase a hybrid car for a couple of weeks now. I've test-drove the HCH, the Prius, and also the Civic GX (Compressed Natural Gas vehicle). Each one has it's own advantages and disadvantages. Check out www.edmunds.com to compare these vehicles.

I was thinking about purchasing the Civic GX, but the home refueling station cost about 3k to purchase and install and there are limited natural gas refueling stations around my area.

The HCH has a boring design and very limited options (ie. Navigation, bluetooth, etc)

Prius has the best design (in my opinion) and the most options available. The 2006 HCH suppose to add navigation to a list of their options but their fuel efficiency is still not as good as Prius. Only 5% better than the 2005 HCH (about 3mpg more). The design of the 2006 HCH is much better than the 2005 models. But as far as fuel efficiency, Prius will still be in the lead. (Not mentioning the Honda Insight). There is also an article that says that under ideal driving conditions, and it has been tested, you can get up to 110MPG driving an unmodified Prius. Please check out the following link:

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/05220/550484.stm

I am still doing my research on which vehicle to purchase, but as of this moment, I am leaning towards the Prius. Because I live in California, I am able to get the sticker to drive in the HOV lane even though I'm alone in the vehicle. But they are limiting the vehicles to hybrids that can provide 45mpg or over, and only up to 75,000 hybrids will be able to receive this sticker. So if I wait until after Jan 1, 2006 to purchase this vehicle, I may not be able to receive the HOV sticker. For those who haven't heard, if you purchase a hybrid after Jan 1, 2006, you can receive a tax credit (not tax deduction) with the Prius in the lead of $3150. Please check out the following link for more information:

http://www.ucsusa.org/hybridcenter/incentives.cfm

So, right now, I'm debating on whether I should purchase my hybrid before or after Jan 1, 2006.

pops5 · August 2005

I am just in the beginning stages of researching hybrid vs. non-hybrid and, if hybrid, which one. Thanks to everyone in this Forum for your candid comments and observations. My question is, what is the published or real life expectancy of the hybrid battery and how expensive will it be to purchase a new one? Thanks.

molokai · August 2005

Jury is out on that one. If you purchase a Toyota hybrid (Lexus RH or Prius) your battery is warranted for 150,000 miles/8yrs in CA/NY/VT/MA and 100,000 miles elsewhere. They batteries in conjunction with the software allow them to be very robust and have long life. Replacement cost at this time should not even be an issue because the cost is most likely higher than it would be 8 yrs from now. I would not allow the issue of the batteries to disuade you.

mossyman · August 2005

I'm not sure how much information is out on the battery, but in one of the searches I've done (either in this forum or elsewhere), I've read that the Prius' battery are in separate cells, so if one goes bad, you can actually just replace the one bad cell. Please correct me if I'm mistaken.

I found this information from Toyota in one of my researches, (but I think this is an old statement):

"The Prius battery (and the battery-power management system) has been designed to maximize battery life. In part this is done by keeping the battery at an optimum charge level - never fully draining it and never fully recharging it. As a result, the Prius battery leads a pretty easy life. We have lab data showing the equivalent of 180,000 miles with no deterioration and expect it to last the life of the vehicle. We also expect battery technology to continue to improve: the second-generation model battery is 15% smaller, 25% lighter, and has 35% more specific power than the first. This is true of price as well. Between the 2003 and 2004 models, service battery costs came down 36% and we expect them to continue to drop so that by the time replacements may be needed it won't be a much of an issue. Since the car went on sale in 2000, Toyota has not replaced a single battery for wear and tear.

Hope this information helps.

geminijax · August 2005

mossyman, I bought a fully loaded Prius last month. Apart from other points folks here have already mentioned, others that made a difference to me were the hatchback design (can get to things in the back w/o getting out of it), the VSC (have one in a '04 HL Ltd & love it) and the fact that the rear seats in the Prius fold flat, if need be. Per the Honda dealer, the rear seats in the HCH or the hybrid Accord do NOT fold. Oh yes, I liked the instrumentation better as well.

fip · August 2005

I agree with geminijax. I am shopping for Hybrids for a practical reason. As a CA resident, that reason is the right to use the carpool lane carpool lane. So to me HCH and Prius should be both fine. And I almost decided to get a HCH because it is cheaper, and the dashboard is more familiar.

Until I see another practical reason. And that is the cargo space at the back of Prius. With the seats fold down, I can use this car to, say, transport big items from Ikea, Home Depot, etc without the hassle of renting a car. My old Acura Integra had the feature and I once used it to move my wife (then girl friend)'s whole one-bed room stuff to our new house.

I am a very pragmatic buyer. But I am am going to buy a Prius, unless I forsee the HOV quota does runs out by the time I get the car (CA only allows the first 75,000 qualified hybrid the right to use the carpool lane).

eman6 · August 2005

Molokai - can you refer me to something that documents the longer warranty for VT? I'm in VT and thinking about buying a Prius. The local dealer didn't mention this.

molokai · August 2005

I believe VT, MA, NY have adopted the same standards as CA. The standard warranty is still the same. As to the traction battery, it should be 150,000 miles along with a few other components. You may want to check with Toyota corporate. I am pretty sure VT may be one of those states. I know that MA and NY definitely are.

redbird5 · August 2005

I've asked this question on another hybrid discussion board but am still not sure about issu: I read somewhere that the Toyota Prius, if not driven for 10 days or more, will drain and the car must be jump started or towed. Have you any information on this? I like what I read about the Prius except for this. I cannot own a car with this problem as I travel and would leave it home several time during the year.

Thanks for your input.

Toyota Prius vs. Honda Civic Hybrid v. Honda Insight v. ?

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