Edmunds dealer partner, Bayway Leasing, is now offering transparent lease deals via these forums. Click here to see the latest vehicles!

Toyota Prius vs. Honda Civic Hybrid v. Honda Insight v. ?

12357

Comments

  • falcononefalconone Member Posts: 1,726
    Many people have left their Prius for over 3 weeks with no problem whatsoever. If you have the smart exit/entry you should disable it as an extra measure. There is a switch for this.
  • mossymanmossyman Member Posts: 5
    Glad you like the Prius, Geminax. I finally got mine on Friday. It’s about $4k cheaper than what they are asking for here in CA. They are pretty much selling for the MSRP price of $27,066 for a package #6 and some dealership actually mark up that price by around $2k. I was so glad I got a great deal on mine. Although it is a 2005 model, it is used vehicle. The only thing that I see wrong with the vehicle is that the mileage was pretty high. It has about 1 1/2 years worth of miles on it. Clean title and pristine condition otherwise. Not only that, it also have an XM satellite radio installed by the dealership and free maintenance for 60,000 miles. I think I got a pretty good deal for my Prius. As soon as I got it home, I started playing around with all the instrumentation. I programmed the homelink system to my garage, I hooked up the Bluetooth connection to my phone, played around with the navigation system, and tried using the voice commands. I'm having a slight problem using the voice commands because it would sometimes do other things than what I actually want it to do. Because Toyota doesn't provide a list of voice commands available for the system, I searched around and found a site that provided a list. I’m going to play around with it a little more tomorrow. Hope it would recognize these commands better. Does anyone know if there is a way to get the voice command to understand your commands better? If you do, please provide some information on how to do this. Thanks in advance.
  • SylviaSylvia Member Posts: 1,636
    Congrats on your new Prius!

    A complete list of voice commands has been posted (and is discussed) along with features, etc. at john1701a, "Toyota Prius 2004+" #1955, 27 Dec 2003 5:45 pm

    Also - don't forget to post about your buy in the Toyota Prius: Prices Paid & Buying Experiences discussion.

    Again - congrats!
  • bic1bic1 Member Posts: 5
    I keep hearing how difficult it is to see out of the rear window of a Prius. Does anyone know if this will be redesigned in the 2006?
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    The 2006 has an optional back-up camera.
  • john1701ajohn1701a Member Posts: 1,897
    > I keep hearing how difficult it is to see out of the rear window of a Prius.

    Newbies keep making assumptions that the split in the rear actually interferes with what you see. But in reality, that quite simply isn't true. The two windows work like bifocal glasses.

    The bottom part is only for parking and tailgaters. It is too low to see anything else anyway, since it sits mostly below the top of the back seats and with no trunk in the way... making it an area not even visible in sedans. Remember, Prius is a hatchback.

    The top part is where all of your normal distance viewing takes place. Note the vertical height. First impression is that it is smaller than average. There is actually more than than people realize.

    JOHN
  • midnightcowboymidnightcowboy Member Posts: 1,978
    H'mm, one has too wonder ??? There have been a lot of Prius owners that have complained, even RailroadJames, about the difficulty seeing when backing up and now for 2006 Prius is offered with an optional backup camera. It seems to me that there really might have been a problem. Toyota usually doesn't provide a solution to problems that don't really exist.

    The reason I mentioned RailroadJames is because he is a very enthusiastic and interesting Prius owner that is very open and honest. And as much as he enjoys and like his Prius he has mentioned the backup vision problem before.

    Just another perspective,

    MidCow

    P.S.- If only Prius would make a manual shift Prius I would get one in a heartbeat and now if looks as if the 2006 Civic Hybrid is auto only URG! :cry:
  • zacharyazacharya Member Posts: 71
    I don't have a problem seeing when backing up, but that's because I am used to a Mercedes C230 coupe that I own as well. It has a similar configuration. John is correct about the bifocal aspect of the rear. It's quite a clever design. Loving this car man! Especially with 3 buck gas!! Currently averaging 50.3 and still haven't filled up since the prices went up. I guess I am in for a rude awakening when that time comes!
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I just think it'll be in-demand for people that already have a NAV screen. Why not? The hardwards adds little to the cost, $200 at retail for aftermarket Pioneer systems for instance.

    -juice
  • stevedebistevedebi Member Posts: 4,098
    "P.S.- If only Prius would make a manual shift Prius I would get one in a heartbeat and now if looks as if the 2006 Civic Hybrid is auto only URG! "

    midcow,
    The HSD doesn't have gears, so there is no way to put in a manual transmission without completely redesigning the system.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    To keep the discussion in the proper place.

    My question is with the changes to the 2006 HCH will it get better mileage than the Prius. Early reports say an honest 50 MPG combined. If the design is better it should surpass the Prius. Will that affect sales to the Prius? There seems to be a lot of eager buyers waiting for the 2006 Civic to arrive. I'm not a big Honda fan. I would like to see the pendulum swing the other direction for a while. If the two cars get the same mileage, the $5k to $8k premium on the Prius should help the wise shoppers decide on the HCH. What affect will the Prius production moving to China create?
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Not sure where you get a $5-8k premium for the Prius but the price difference between the '06 HCH (which by the way isn't even available yet, so we don't have any mpg data except from a few road tests) and the Prius isn't that high. Also I expect some buyers will navigate to the Prius because they like the versatility offered by the hatchback design, along with the greater legroom in the rear seat. And some will like the fact that the Prius looks different than anything else on the road, so they can make a statement as they drive down the road, "Look at me, I'm green!"
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Not sure where you get a $5-8k premium for the Prius but the price difference between the '06 HCH

    I was going by advertised prices on the Prius. I believe the dealer had a #4 for $28k and a #6 for $30k. Assuming the 2006 HCH does not top $23k you get the figures I stated. Buyers seem to be content to pay MSRP for the Prius, which makes it easy to tack on a few extras. In CA you add $2500 for taxes and license. If you take a quick peek at the TMV here on Edmund's you will see that the going rate for a #6 Prius is a bit over $29k. The HCH is a little over $20k. So I guess my estimates were a little on the low side. If you are buying a car to be green and use less gas. The two are comparable in those to areas. If you want to look green or need the hatchback, you are going to pay a minimum of $4500 more for the Prius. The days of a $20k Prius are long gone. In CA don't expect to get out the door for less than $27k.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Your original post was about the '06 HCH vs. the '06 Prius. There are no TMV figures or advertised prices available for these cars yet.

    Also, why compare a fully loaded Prius to a HCH that doesn't have as much equipment? All that does is bias the comparison in favor of the smaller, lesser-equipped HCH. How about comparing the base models of both? The TMV in my area for the '05 Prius is $24k--although I know at least one dealer where I can get it for MSRP (maybe less), which is $21,815. If you follow the Prius discussions here or elsewhere you'll see that many people are picking up a Prius for MSRP or less. Maybe not in San Diego, but not everyone lives in San Diego. The TMV for the base HCH with CVT (Prius has a CVT also) is $20,903. The TMV for the '06 will undoubtedly be higher because it's a new design and a much more desirable car. As it is, there's currently less than $1000 difference and for that extra money you get a much roomier car with hatchback versatility.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    When was the last time you saw a stripped Prius on a dealer's lot for $21k? There have been a couple of people on the Prius thread trying to track down an entry level Prius. They have not been having any success. If what you are saying is correct a $1000 would be a reasonable amount to pay for the difference in the Prius over the Civic. I don't think you will see that for a while. If we had a good way of tracking I would say more Prius go out the door closer to $30k than even $25k. This is not Spring of 2005 when one Toyota dealer in San Diego had 11 on his lot at once.
  • sr45sr45 Member Posts: 144
    Lets forget the Prius, and the HCH for goodness sakes... Lets just all get a bicycle, and be done with it and those that charge MSRP.. :shades: We will show them not to mess with the masses... ;)
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    I have seen new no-option Priuses advertised on eBay by dealers, so I know they exist. My nearest dealer has sold a lot of the package 1 cars, with side airbags and curtains as the only option. That would probably be a good comparo to the '06 HCH, since both cars would have comparable safety equipment.
  • falcononefalconone Member Posts: 1,726
    Seek and you shall find. If you are anxious, you're going to get ripped off. There are plenty on the market and if someone wants a used one, there are plenty to be had.
  • railroadjamesrailroadjames Member Posts: 560
    Been away for awhile but looks like some interesting comments being shared here so here's mine. Midnight...Your right, I have been critical in some ways about the Rr window...But....I wish to point out there has been some getting use to it that now can be shared with everyone. The 'ol saying ..."you can't have it all" should apply here in my estimation. The Prius, being a hatchback (which I like very much), has a Rr window that takes some time to adapt to. The bar across the lower area is obviously necessary for structural integrity. I have come to accept the "window" and would also point out that the "bar" has been quite usefull when blocking out SUV's headlights. This I really like!
    My biggest complaint about my Prius is the Rr View Mirror ... It takes some care to double check to the right @ intersections for other cars that I occasionally miss due to the mirror. Yes I've made adjustments but still miss some cars. I'm 6 ft.
    Railroadjames(Free-us Prius) :)

    P.S. Midnight....I agree about manual tranny except that once I got use to the Prius CVT I now wonder why I ever thought that way.....Try it You'll See!
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    First Place
    Honda Civic Hybrid (91 points)
    It's a Honda. It has the familial "connectedness" gene, i.e., no fuzzy logic in the controls. Driving is always fun in Hondas.


    I expect the 2006 HCH should really give the Prius a run for the money....
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    C/D will undoubtedly rank the HCH above the Civic if for nothing else other than handling. They always favor handling above everything else. OTOH, C/D did name the '04 Prius one of its 10Best.
  • falcononefalconone Member Posts: 1,726
    This is very true. I value safety above handing at 9/10ths. The HCH will not have stability control or a hatch. It's back seat remains small. It is tons better than the previous version and the interior is very nice and modern. I also don't like the space the column shifter takes up. The Prius is brilliant with the space saving joystick. It should be very interesting how the new HCH does in the market. I do hope it gives the Prius a good run for the money. It's better for the market to have some good old fashioned competition.
  • railroadjamesrailroadjames Member Posts: 560
    I too am impressed w/ the 06 Honda Civic Hybrid. It definitly shows an example of better (exciting) styling and the always usual Honda quality and leadership and competitive drive. I've owned many Hondas and my 04 Prius is my first Toyota. As to your opinion about competition, I see quite abit in this "world market." Count the number of car models andmakes....It's endless.
    Railroadjames ;)
  • railroadjamesrailroadjames Member Posts: 560
    What I can't quite understand about Honda is the Insight and it's lack of change and/or improvements. Styling sure could be addressed and the many complaints that I've heard from some owners. The one style Insight sure could use a make over......Anyone agree? It could improve the sales of it.
    Railroadjames
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I read somewhere that the Insight costs Honda around $30k to build. Loaded with exotic metals etc. They have a hard time selling them at $20k. They may keep them for bragging rights. I know the manual model is harder to find than the CVT.

    They did sell more in August than for quite a while. I think it is the ideal commuter car.

    PS
    I don't think they can justify spending money on changes selling 55 units per month.
  • john1701ajohn1701a Member Posts: 1,897
    > It could improve the sales of it.

    Honda only built 150 of the 2005 for the United States.

    They clearly aren't interested in greater sales. It's basically just a collector's item in the making... which actually isn't too bad of a thing. Automotive history is loaded with extremely limited quantity vehicles that are now prized items by the few that own them.

    JOHN
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I think the Honda just might be more efficient in the real world. The current 5 speed matches the CVT Prius, but the auto gives up a couple of mpg.

    But the new one gains some efficiency, and Honda is closer to the EPA numbers than Toyota has been. So it'll be very close.

    -juice
  • midnightcowboymidnightcowboy Member Posts: 1,978
    stevedebi said:

    "The HSD doesn't have gears, so there is no way to put in a manual transmission without completely redesigning the system. "

    Well, actually it does have gears: sun, ring, and planetary gears.

    But the design of the system does eliminate the need for a conventional; automatic or manual transmission. so in effect you answer is correct "...The HSD doesn't have gears, so there is no way to put in a manual transmission without completely redesigning the system. " but sadly I already knew that and was lamenting that fact.

    YMMV 6-speed,

    MidCow
  • john1701ajohn1701a Member Posts: 1,897
    > actually it does have gears

    Those are just power carriers, not gears, serving the same purpose as the connectors in a differential. It is not a transmission, since nothing ever disengages or even shifts. They just spin.

    What would having gears accomplish?

    You already have the ability to "downshift", kicking in a boost from the motor and/or gas engine (determined by what was powering the tires in the first place) when you step harder on the pedal.

    JOHN
  • midnightcowboymidnightcowboy Member Posts: 1,978
    John,

    As a seasoned Prius owner i thougth you knew how the CVT planetary gear system worked. Here is a technical slide presentation that in session 2 shows the details of the Prius HSD system.

    Look at slide 28 in particular. It shows a picture of the actual Prius gears: sun ,planetary and ring.

    Here is the URL : http://www.engin.umd.umich.edu/vi/w4_workshops/Miller_W04.pdf

    The gear system acts as a transmission by combining the outputs of two Motor /Generators MG1 and MG2 with the drive to the wheels.

    The "power carrier" is just a name Toyota coined to try to explain the system to the non-engineering background, general public.

    I will state correctly again the HSD system uses gears!

    YMMV,

    MidCow
  • john1701ajohn1701a Member Posts: 1,897
    A differential operates in the very same manner as the Planetary-CVT.

    How come that isn't called a transmission?

    How come the components inside it aren't called gears?

    How come nothing ever engages & disengages?

    What is the point giving the same name for a device that is completely unlike any other?

    JOHN
  • john1701ajohn1701a Member Posts: 1,897
    By the way, notice that the proper name isn't actually "CVT".

    It is "PSD", which stands for Power Split Device.

    JOHN
  • midnightcowboymidnightcowboy Member Posts: 1,978
    PSD is just the marketing name that Toyota coined to avoid confusion with belt and cone CVT systems.

    Look at this URL on the bottom of page101 and top of page 102: "In a series/parallel hybrid (such as the Prius), a power splitting device divides the power from the engine, so the ratio of power going directly to the wheels and to the generator is continuously variable. Since the motor can be run on the electricity as it is generated, the motor is used more than in a parallel system. "

    ALL series/parallel hybrid systems, example Prius, need a power splitting device, hence the coined name:

    http://www.homepower.com/files/HP102_100.pdf

    Have a Good Day,

    MidCow
  • midnightcowboymidnightcowboy Member Posts: 1,978
    repost of #245 without link to other forum, sorry 'bout that :blush:

    Early you were referring to the transmission as CVT se one of your earlier
    posts: #54 john1701a, "Hybrids: Toyota Prius vs. Honda Civic Hybrid v. Honda Insight v. ?" #54, 3 Dec 2003 12:31 am


    1. some people call it a transmission there was a lot of debate about that.
    2. they are called gears, just by their specifc name for their specific
    function.
    3. That is true in one sense the gear cogs engage/disengage but the gear
    realtionship is fixed.
    4. Marketing _ remember the "turbo-hydramatic transmission"

    John, if you will stop an think about the engine rotates and wheels rotate.
    There are only a handful of ways to connect two rotating devices:

    (1) directly connect via a shaft or cable
    (2) use wheels/pulleys and connect by a belt
    (3) use wheels pulleys and connect by friction pressure
    (4) use gears and connect by a gear chain.
    (5) use gears and directly engage the gear cogs.

    The HSD sytem uses a CVT planetary gear set which is a version of (5). It is
    actaully a pretty innovative system by using two Motor Generators sun gear and
    palnatary ring to drive the wheels and achieve the same effect as a conventional
    CVT transmission. CVT stand for continuously varialble can almost infitiley vary
    the final drive ratio between a lower and upper limit. think of a very low first
    gear ratio ( around 13.5 to 1) up to a very high highway gear ratio (around 2.5
    to 1) and basically an infinite number of ration in between.

    I am sorry you are having trouble understanding the concept. There is a very
    simplified, animated version of how the gears work at this URL:
    http://home.earthlink.net/~graham1/MyToyotaPrius/Understanding/PowerSplitDevice.htm

    Here is another diagram of the Prius gears: http://home.nyc.rr.com/tewedding/HSD/Prius_Transaxle.GIF

    The HSD is a innovative transmission ,but it uses GEARS and is a planetray -CVT
    type transmission.

    Good luck in your further understanding of the Prius HSD system.

    Cruis'n 6-speed manual,

    MidCow
  • koolkinkajoukoolkinkajou Member Posts: 15
    Found this article on a comparision:
    http://www.broward.com/mld/cctimes/classifieds/automotive/12721217.htm

    He points out the two superior points of the Prius:
    Larger trunk space and the Civic does not offer ESC (Electronic Stability Control).
    Additionally, the Civic does not even offer traction control!
    I'd rather have that stuff then 20 speakers!
    Sounds like they forgot to put in the safety features when they did the redesign!
    Funny that the Accord has it though!
  • coffmlucoffmlu Member Posts: 20
    This is the toughest decision I'm trying to make right now. Honda will probably lose quite a few buyers since they don't offer ESC with traction control on their civic. They should have at least made it an option.
  • falcononefalconone Member Posts: 1,726
    Hopefully they will next year. I only buy cars that have VSC/TRAC.
  • bruceha_2000bruceha_2000 Member Posts: 1
    I think the lack of folding rear seats is a HUGE drawback for the HCH. Neither the 2003 HCH and Prius models had folding rear seats. I drove both and wouldn't buy either for that ONE reason. Toyota wised up with the 2004 Prius, I bought one and I love it.

    I was hoping Honda would wise up with the HAH but they did not. Again I was hoping they would wise up for the 2006 HCH, they did not. I HOPE Toyota STAYS wise when they put out the Hybrid Camry about a year from now.

    It clearly isn't a hatchback vs sedan issue, the non hybrid Civic has folding rear seats, my '86 Mazda 626 sedan had folding rear seats, so do most other sedans so what gives? I can't believe Toyota has some patent on the 'truck' deck at the level of the top of the battery pack and a storage tray behind the battery and under the deck such that no one else can have a similar design. Even if Honda left it as is, who cares? The back (now top) of the folded rear seats would still be at or above the level of the battery compartment. So what if you have an 8" drop to the rest of the trunk area? It is sad such a little thing makes such a big difference in functionality.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    A few sedans have dropped that feature to get increased rigidity. That's not an excuse for hybrids, though. Maybe to save weight?

    -juice
  • stevedebistevedebi Member Posts: 4,098
    "A few sedans have dropped that feature to get increased rigidity. That's not an excuse for hybrids, though. Maybe to save weight?"

    I think it is for design reasons. They put the batteries in that space behind the seats, and don't have to engineer a space for battery packs. Thus Honda can use their conventional design vehicles without major modifications.

    It's not such an issue with SUVs; they have more space inside. Same with the GMC hybrid pickup.
  • SylviaSylvia Member Posts: 1,636
    Hey folks - in case you haven't visited our new blogs yet, check out Karl on Cars (Karl Brauer our Editor in Chief) and see the entry about

    Toyota Prius v. Honda Civic Hybrid
    http://blogs.edmunds.com/.ee8c4a3

    You can comment on it there - hey! another place for you to post...

    note - if you have autologin/remember me you might have to put the URL in as for some reason clicking on it is giving a redirect to our main blog Straightline http://blogs.edmunds.com/straightline
  • looking4priuslooking4prius Member Posts: 53
    I have owned 3 Civics and two Accords, so my shopping started with Honda. The Civic is small for my needs (need the trunk space especially) and the Accord is too expensive, even the non-hybrid. Keeping the Civic in mind with the possibility of hybrid or not, I looked at a Prius.

    The Prius had the room that I need and the functionality that I need. Certainly the non hybrid Civic would be cheaper, but it wouldnt have the space that I need. It really was as simple as that. The test-drive went fine and the car met my expectations. Certainly not a dragster, but I am not looking for a muscle car, just a car to commute with. And as I sit in traffic for too long, the Prius made sense as it turns the ICE off.

    So, I asked the Honda dealer for a test drive in a non-hybrid Civic. He couldn't produce one in the trim that I was looking at, much less a hybrid. What bothered me is that he then told me that I didn't need a hybrid and that Honda only made hybrids to compete with Toyota.

    I then asked the Toyota dealer for a test drive in a Prius. It happened within 3 days. The Prius provides the room that I need; the Civic (hybrid or otherwise) doesnt. Mine is currently on order. Sure, it is more expensive, but it is a better car. As far as the HCH, I didn't like the idea of a belt-driven transmission. I have had some 'negative experience' with Hondas and belts.
  • falcononefalconone Member Posts: 1,726
    You ought to find a Honda dealer willing to give you a test drive in a HCH. It is much improved over the 05. It is also a very nice looking sedan! I know a few people that have already driven them, but they still prefer their Prius (another forum forbidden to be linked). Can't hurt to try one so that you know for sure you made the right decision. Good luck!!!
  • midnightcowboymidnightcowboy Member Posts: 1,978
    " ... Accord is too expensive, even the non-hybrid"
    " .. (Prius) Sure, it is more expensive, but it is a better car. "

    Based on what you stated, you should not get a Prius, but you should get a LX Accord or Special Editon Accord instead. They are much less expensive to purchase than even the base Prius. If TCO is one of your key criteria, which it appears to be, then the Prius will not pay off!

    Your "better car" will end up costing you a lot more!
  • looking4priuslooking4prius Member Posts: 53
    Hmmm.
    Have to think about that one... :confuse:
  • looking4priuslooking4prius Member Posts: 53
    Ok, did some looking and some comparing. My Honda dealer was selling Accord EX (non-hybrid) at $30k, LX at $25k. Other Honda dealers have quoted me similar prices. Granted, the Accord has more room. Still, the price would be a wash. So I will be going with the Prius, if only to have a different model/make of car for a change!
  • falcononefalconone Member Posts: 1,726
    If you get the Prius..take delivery in Jan to take advantage of the tax credit of ~3k.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Accords are pricey in your neck of the woods! EX I4 Accords sticker for much less than $30k. With that kind of gouging, the Prius would make sense unless you stretch your search beyond the Prius and Accord.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    My Honda dealer was selling Accord EX (non-hybrid) at $30k

    That does seem a bit stiff. The 2006 leather NAV version in San Diego, a known Honda gouging location, is right at $26k. By comparison the 2005 pkg 6 Prius is $28,629 locally. The 2006 Prius with leather is going to be a bit more. I would think it would be easier to find an Accord than a Prius also. Good luck in your quest.
  • falcononefalconone Member Posts: 1,726
    Anyone looking for an 06 Prius should opt out and buy the leather aftermarket. Don't forget the nice juicy tax credit too. 28k turns into 25k at the blink of an eye. Gotta love it!!!
This discussion has been closed.