Toyota Highlander Hybrid

jchan2 · January 2004

have no clue.

ssachnoff · January 2004

Maybe some Prius owners from the other boards can tell us if that left gauge is on their dashboards, too.

2003tls · January 2004

Maybe it has something to do with either the battery power left, or how much it is using at the time. It is a big gauge so it must be important.

jchan2 · January 2004

it could be the amount of the battery left.

dgrayson · January 2004

Well, good speculation all...

Here is an attachment of an article in the Chicago Sun-Times. Apparently it is the battery life , as it replaces the tachometer.

Good article:
http://www.suntimes.com/output/padgett/car-news-nina26.html

john1701a · February 2004

That is an electricity indicator, showing active transfer.

The charge-level indicator is on the Energy Monitor screen of the Multi-Display. Within the battery there, you'll see bars appear and disappear as well as change color.

JOHN

maltbread · February 2004

The price of $1.50 a gal. does not apply in the Bay Area and not in most of the developed world. Toyota develops cars for the WORLD not just the USA. Of course many people here (and that includes GM) think the USA = The World. Hence the World Series. The real price of gas should also include the cost of the wars to defend the supply. It also not simply whether the supply is there. Moving it around and burning it does not do us much good and neither does the huge imbalance in trade caused by inporting oil. Hybrids make sense for the good of the country but not possibly yet for an individual. One attraction for me is the range you can drive and the safety afforded by having more than one motor Toyota sells a hybrid minivan in Japan.

2003tls · February 2004

True. Most of the US pays $1.25 - $1.75 per gallon of gas. Most of Europe pays $4.00/gallon or more. Gas is expensive in Asia too. Toyota and Honda are perfecting hybrid technology to use worldwide, not just in the U.S. I, for one, am glad they are doing it.

jchan2 · February 2004

some urban areas have higher gas prices than smaller cities.

ssachnoff · February 2004

D. Grayson, thanks for the link to the Chicago Sun Times article about the HH and Lexus Hybrid and its gauges and performance. The info about the increased "peppiness" between 30-50mph was particularly interesting and exciting. I am looking forward to checking out the vehicle in person at next week's Chicago Auto Show.

Everyone, as articles relating to the HH are discovered please continue posting links to them in this discussion.

jchan2 · February 2004

I wonder how much over the current sticker they'll charge.

atrofman · February 2004

I overheard the radio show and someone was saying it is going to be about $2K over current sticker price. Another question is: are they going to offer hybrid engine for all subclasses, or only for limited?

gkirkwood · February 2004

Does anyone have any knowledge of how the battery performance in the hybrids may be affected by extreme cold? If we get a week of 30 below zero temperatures, will this significantly affect starting or performance of the hybrid? Is there anyway to warm up the V6 engine manually, or will it only start up when the engine computer decides it's needed?
Will the car have an auxiliary electric heater (for the interior) since the V6 may not be running that much during in-town traffic?

Thanks for any insight into this.
Gill

john1701a · February 2004

> battery performance

Charge capacity is reduced.

Peak power is actually INCREASED due to the cold, since keeping the pack from overheating is a non-issue.

My Prius just laughed at the -18F temperature last week. Startup was instant and heat came surprisingly fast (the thermal retention system is partly responsible for that, something that would make any traditional vehicle jealous).

> Is there anyway to warm up the V6 engine manually,
> or will it only start up when the engine computer
> decides it's needed?

Since heat is also needed for the emissions system, you will never have to concern yourself about availability. The computer will always see to it that it is available.

> Will the car have an auxiliary electric heater

The Prius does. But since the system does such a good job with heat management, not much secondary heat is needed. The coolant from the engine feeds the heater-core for quite awhile, allowing the engine to remain off. But then when it does cool off, the engine just automatically restarts again.

My -13F photos last week (on my website) were proof that there's lots more heat than you need. Sitting there snapping away with the camera, I eventually need turn the heater onto the lowest setting to keep from roasting.

JOHN

Donluce · February 2004

Does anyone know what tax credits or deductons can be used when buying a 2005 Highlander Hybrid?

Thanks

Don Luce

jchan2 · February 2004

The Highlander Hybrid mini brochure I got from Detroit says that there will be a Highlander Hybrid model and a Highlander Hybrid Limited model. The Highlander Hybrid should be eligible for whatever the tax credit is in 2005 (it keeps going down with each model year)

tvwxman · February 2004

It was $2000 until this year. For the 2004 year, it was dropped to $1500, so expect it to be $1000 or so by 2005.

You'll probably get a state tax credit as well. In Georgia, it was $1000 up until this year, but has been dropped to $500 for 2004.

So with the tax credit, the $3000 premium is basically a wash, and Toyota knows it.

A lot of people I know down here think that a hybrid is strictly for tree huggers. I'm hardly one of those, but from a strictly economic sense, a hybrid SUV is perfect. With a growing family, I couldn't justify the Prius or Civic, and my long commute necessitates a comfortable ride. I'm wavering between the HL and the Lexus, and am interested to see what the pricing will be.

john1701a · February 2004

It is NOT a credit.

It is actually only a DEDUCTION, which for most people translates to just a few hundred dollars.

> my long commute necessitates a comfortable ride

That's the first time I've seen anyone associate the word "comfort" with SUV. Why did you choose that particular adjective?

JOHN

samnoe · February 2004

Maybe someone post it already before, but I didn't see. When you go to Toyota.com you can see pictures, info, about the HL Hybrid.

sharona1973 · February 2004

Does anyone know what the towing capacity is for the HL hybrid? I've been trying to read up on the Ford Escape hyrbid and it only has a 1000lb towing capacity and the regular Escape has a 3500lb capacity. Does a hybrid have less towing power?

Edited to say: I didn't realize this discussion was in the beginnig of the forum! And the website does say it tows 3500lbs.

How about another question....do you think the Escape can tow more than 1000lbs as a hybrid? The escape is a lot cheaper than the HL......it's really about $30k to start? I didn't realize that HL cost that much.

jludo · February 2004

I'm very interested in owning a hybrid vehicle, especially with the introduction of a hybrid SUV. That said, though, does anybody know the cost of monthly maintenance for a hybrid vehicle (i.e Prius, Civic hybrid, Insight).

Furthermore, I'm assuming any major repair, such as to the electric system, battery pack, etc would be brought back to the dealer at exorbitant costs to the consumer. Again, I'm making the assumption that run-of-the-mill auto shops would have no clue about fixing what would be "computer-based" problems.

Bottom line: is it worth the hassle and cost (more importantly) if something major happens to a hybrid vehicle?

john1701a · February 2004

HSD was designed from scratch, with the intention of increasing reliability. So from an automaker's point-of-view, that means reduced warranty payments and increased sales due to higher consumer-satisfaction ratings.

The system eliminated a transmission, which is a complex (and expensive) component that commonly requires major repair or replacement late in the vehicle's life. There are no gears and there is no torque-converter. Instead, there is just a permanently engaged power-split device. A simple component like a differential, which almost always lasts the entire lifetime of the vehicle.

Fluid has been eliminated from the steering system. So there's nothing to ever check or change.

The engine is has 2 fewer pistons, which obviously eliminates parts (and cost). And it doesn't get used as often, never runs as hot, has a much lower redline, and has much less stressful starts than a traditional engine. So it should last longer.

The AC motors are brushless, so they never need any maintenance. The battery-pack is designed to last the life of the vehicle, so that shouldn't ever need any maintenance either.

There is an extra fluid to change, the coolant for the inverter, but the process to do that is similar to anti-freeze. So that's not a big deal.

Brakes don't get used as often, since the regenerator-motor handles most of the decleration needs. So the shoes & pads should last longer than normal too.

Computers have been in traditional vehicles for years. So reliability to the one in HSD should be similar, they almost never need servicing.

Realistically, that's it. The HSD system should actually cost less to maintain. So if anything, consider costs a wash, no more than a traditional vehicle.

JOHN

heatherk9e · February 2004

Wow, I am sure glad I found this message board! I found out the Toyota Highlander Hybrid from the International Auto Show and it sure grabbed my attention quick! I just was trying to find out more information about it and see if people were talking about it but all I found was press releases until this site.. I need another car, and the one I have just doesn't cut it for me anymore ( too small, old, can't really use it for anything) so I was trying to figure out what to get next for a car.. SUVs were always a problem beacuse of their reputations of being gas guzzlers.. Then finally a hybrid SUV! Damn that is the smartest thing that Toyota as done.. and that guy from GM sounds really ignorant, doesn't he notice that a lot of car companies are going towards hybrid and the market is changing? If they want to keep up with the market trends, they have to keep up with the competition..

Oh well, Im just really curious about the pricing of it.. I've been reading over all the messages with what the predictions will be.. Most likely it will be a bit more expensive, but if you wait until the end of the year ( If there isn't a large demand but there might be) and buy it then, you usually get a discount because car lots clear out say the 2005s for 2006 models beacuse they aren't considered "new" but hell I wouldn't care

And I'm gonna be curious about the reliability and quality issues it might encouter.. It might be more reliabile like John just said, but we'll have to wait and see..

I'm from BC Canada, and the bonus for me is that I think I wouldn't have to do that stupid Air Care thing if I get it

I'm just mostly worried about the price..

Anyways just wanted to give my thoughts on my first post..

6thbeatle · February 2004

i think just as a fun promotional gimmick, toyota should give away free car bras to the first 1000 customers who buy the new hybrid highlander, but make the promotional car bra in a tartan design, so they can claim that not only is the new highlander fully loaded with good stuff under the hood, but that the new highlander is now also fully clothed. now i wonder if anyone manufactures an automotive sporran?

tvwxman · February 2004

SUV doesn't equal comfort in your book? Apparently you haven't driven in Atlanta traffic. Not the most cofortable place to be in a small car.

john1701a · February 2004

Based on that comment, I'd assume you mean "illusion of safety" to be the meaning of "comfort". Many people do in fact feel larger is better, despite the reality that lower & smaller vehicles handle better.

I associate "comfort" with what you sit on, how much the steering-wheel & seat & pedals can be adjusted, along with how much leg room is available. You can also in other aspects, like how good the Heat & A/C work and the quality of the sound system. Heck, even the cupholders can be something that contribute to "comfort".

There's nothing wrong with a moderate-size hybrid SUV, but it should be properly represented by avoiding terms that can be easily misunderstood.

JOHN

Kirstie_H · February 2004

The reason there are so many different body styles is that people do have varying wants and needs in a vehicle. And, one person's comfort is another person's sore back. For tvwxman, the SUV may provide the most comfort for his driving needs.

But one thing we're not gonna do in here is go down the line of conversation taking place in I don't like SUVs..., LOL. Let's try to stick to the hybrid Highlander.

dgrayson · February 2004

Went to the Chicago Auto Show today and saw the Hybrid Highlander on display. Talked with the dealer at length...

What I picked up:
1. Orders will start in mid summer (expect long lines- Lexus dealer in area already has 50 preorders for the 400h (almost as many as he will be allocated)). Plan on delivery in Feb/March of 2005, although chance of getting in in Jan.

2. Cost will run most likely in the 3000-5000 range over the non-hybrid (At least that is what they are saying right now- I'm not convinced).

3. Almost all the hybrids will be produced in the Limited line.

4. And most important... the battery will be guaranteed for the life of the car (as long as it is on the road & transferable to all future owners at no cost)

jchan2 · February 2004

I sure hope Toyota makes a bunch of them to keep the waiting lists short. Guess it'll be hard to find a base model with the third row seat since most of them will be fully loaded Limited models.

dgrayson · February 2004

Well, the dealers had no info on the numbers to be produced, by by using Toyota's numbers let's see:

300,000 hybrids by 2006 so...

50,000 Prius made this year (with long waits) so production will increase probably to 80-100,000.

Lexus is wear the $$$ and forward looking demand is (Lexus buyers are even more willing to spend the extra $$$ on options such as hybrid so...
I am looking for 100,000+

So that leaves the highlander with a max of 100,000... demand is going to eat these up!!!

ssachnoff · February 2004

D. Grayson, I, too, went to the Chicago Auto Show (on the last day, albeit) and found out less info than you posted above. I did get the gray/black handout but was disappointed overall at the lack of hard info available.

Different folks told me contradictory things. I asked about how to increase the chances of getting one when they come out. One person said go to the dealer who sold the most Priuses because they'll get the biggest allotment of HH's. Then someone else told me that, since every dealer sells every Prius they get, searching out dealers based on Prius sales would be useless. Now, a dealer from an underprivileged area told me to place the order with him because he thought he wouldn't have much demand for the HH and I'd be more likely to get one that way.

Some people said that all the HH's would have the third seat.

Others said that there would be an equal number of HH's and HH Limiteds. I find it hard to believe that the non-loaded versions will be first off the line, but who knows.

P.S. I was also told that the release date of the Lexus hybrid (the RH400?) has been pushed back to November. I find this distressing since I was hoping that its earlier release date would siphon off some of the "first on their block" types, as well as those for whom money is no object, leaving the HH for those of us with more modest budgets.

What did other patrons at the Chicago Auto Show learn about sales, price, options, etc.?

petl · February 2004

Since Toyota's vehicle life cycles are 5 years, would it not make sense to release the HL hybrid in 2005 as a 2006? That is when the HL is scheduled for a redesign. The Lexus is only in the second year of its life cycle. Just a thought.

dgrayson · February 2004

My upstairs neighbor just ordered the Lexus 400H and was guaranteed (in writing) of a delivery date prior to Oct. 15th or he would receive signicant rebates. So I think they will be coming by early Oct. at the latest.

Secondly, I asked about the remodel thing and was told there is a strong chance that the remodel may be coming in the 2005 model, part of the reason for the late release date of both the regular highlander and the hybrid.

wco81 · February 2004

But they've shown pictures of the HL hybrid with pretty much the current design. The main difference was LED tail lights.

Same for the RX400H, which was going to have LED tail lights but looked otherwise the same as the RX330.

jchan2 · February 2004

I think the Highlander Hybrid will be another hit, just like the Prius. HYBRID MANIA!!!!!

alpha01 · February 2004

My father, who has never expressed an interest in SUVs, recently received an email from Toyota corporate (No doubt because of prior loans through TMCC) regarding the new Hybrid HL. He emailed me as soon as he got it, and said "This is our next car". WHAT? So I told him more about it, and he is REALLY interested. Unfortunately, if most of the Hy's are Limited in trim line, and sticker north of 33K, I dont really think its financially possible. But, this really demonstrates the market penetration that an SUV with 27MPG average, while still offering power and room- can generate!

So I started selling him on the virtures of Vehicle Skid Control, and the new V6s in Camrys... we will see. In a perfect world, Id really like to see an AWD Camry AND a Hybrid Camry AND a Hybrid AWD Camry!!!

alpha

petl · February 2004

Make mine an AWD Hybrid Sport Wagon Camry. I would trade the 4WD Matrix and the Camry XLE in for one tomorrow, if it existed. Where do I sign?

samalter · February 2004

First of all, thanks to everyone who have given their time and knowledge to this board.
It's been a very useful resource to better understanding what I might expect when I order my Highlander.

Does anyone know whether the Hybrid Highlander will use an Atkinson cycle engine? It's listed as a selling point to Toyota's Synergy Drive in the '04 Prius, and since the hybrid Escape will also be using one, it might be a nice advantage.

http://www.toyota.com/about/tomorrow/ads/hsd.html

I for one would welcome the idea of sacrificing some power to favor efficiency on an already supercharged V-6.
If it were the case it might also help to explain the surprisingly high "significantly better than 27.6 combined MPG" that's been touted.

Thanks again.

usbseawolf2000 · February 2004

>> Does anyone know whether the Hybrid Highlander will use an Atkinson cycle engine?

Answer: Yes.

I have not seen Toyota revealing it for a fact yet. But reasonings from the understanding of HSD imply so.

>> I for one would welcome the idea of sacrificing some power to favor efficiency on an already supercharged V-6.

With Hybrid Highlander, you don't sacrifice power. You'll gain power and efficiency with HSD technology. It is true that Akinson cycle will make less mechanical(engine) power than Otto cycle Highlander. Hybrid Highlander will have electric super charged power advantage. 120KW (161hp) motor in the front and 4WD-i version will have 50KW (67hp) motor in the back. Electric power is what you want. High torque instant delivery. Hybrid Highlander is suppose to be faster with 0-60 about 8.5 sec.

Dennis

ssachnoff · February 2004

The vehicle I saw displayed at the Chicago auto show was substantially the same as the 2004 HL. The rep I asked about any design changes told me just the back lights, a little curvature in the body lines and the grill cover.

usbseawolf2000 · February 2004

408hp 4WD, 0-60 in 4 secs and 220 MPG!!

http://autoweek.com/cat_content.mv?port_code=autoweek&cat_cod- - e=autoshows&loc_code=&content_code=04700872

Another example of hybrid advantage by escaping traditional ICE only trade-off boundry. This car is tuned for maximum performance using exotic materials but using HSD (3.3L V6) that will be used in Highlander Hybrid.

BTW, I am open to the possibility of marketing hype.

Dennis
NYCLP4

usbseawolf2000 · February 2004

Autoweek probably has a typo. Another site said 700 kms with 52 liters gasoline. That comes out to 31.7 MPG. It is still amazing.

Dennis
NYCLP4

carguy1234 · March 2004

My closest Toyota dealer is taking pre-orders for '05 Highlander Hybrids. They are telling me Jan/Feb '05 delivery.

Anybody else getting a different story (like an earlier delivery date than this)?

Thanks

dgrayson · March 2004

I was even told by a dealer in Chicago that they are now being told April. Also trying to contact about 20 dealers in area. Only one is willing to deal at all below MSRP because of the high demand.

jchan2 · March 2004

if you want a Highlander Hybrid below MSRP, stick with that one dealer that was willing to deal. Come later in the year, the dealers will be swamped.

commonsense · March 2004

The noble idea of saving an environment does not come cheap. Using less gas means paying less money (duh!), but buying the Hybrid SUV today involves forking out several thousands dollars, which virtually nullifies the savings. Paying less for gas would not translate into ANY financial savings over at least 5-7 yrs.
The following example uses family-oriented people averaging roughly 12,000 mi per yr, or 1000 mi per month, who do not use their cars for businesses where one requires much greater utilization of their vehicles:
- 6 cyl 2004 Highlander gets about 20 mpg (18 cty/24 hwy) needing 50 gallons of gas; total monthly cost of gas at $1.90/gallon is $95;
- 6 cyl 2005 Hybrid should get 28 mpg; therefore 1,000 mi will cost $65 given prior parameters;
- monthly saving of $30 accumulate into $360 saved per year;
- with the trend to change cars every 5-7 yrs or when warranty expires, one could save $1800 to $2520;
- this falls short of $3K to $5K to ?K more one should pay up front to buy the Hybrid;
- this situation changes for the better, however, when gas approaches $5/gallon.

So, unless the difference in price is minimal measuring hundreds of dollars and not thousands, or the price of gas is European-like, it doesn't make financial sense to buy Hybrid SUV today. The "green" reasons (saving the planet, cleaner air, etc.) may be more prevalent in the first years of hybrid-mania.

But is it really technology itself that is more expensive, or is it politically motivated price gouging to continue pushing toward traditional gas-guzzlers to keep oil industry happy? I can hear the ecstatic slogans when "revolutionary" hybrid Suburbans and Excursions start getting 20 mpg as opposed to today's <15, and costing twice as much.

john1701a · March 2004

> it doesn't make financial sense to buy Hybrid SUV today

It doesn't make financial sense to buy Traditional SUV either.

JOHN

usbseawolf2000 · March 2004

How much values do you put on the following HSD features?

- Smooth acceleration, no jerking during shifting (Smoother than 6 speeds)
- Instant power response, no delay from downshiftings (Within milliseconds)
- More torque and horse power than a regular Highlander
- Total silence at the stop lights
- Electric heater that produces heat faster
- HOV lane access in some states
- Many more (Feel free to add)

Obviously, you were not aware of many other HSD benefits and calculated only the fuel saving.

Dennis

landdriver · March 2004

My guess is at some point in the future, perhaps 20 years from now, hybrids will be standard on most cars, much like fuel injection has replaced carburetors over the past 20 years, or like automatic transmissions have become standard on many cars (Highlanders for example aren't even offered with a manual transmission). Once a critical mass of interest and demand for hybrids is reached, competition between auto manufacturers for the hybrid market will drive the price of hybrids down. We are witness to a new era of car evolution, the transition of which will occur over the next 20 years.

I also predict that 20 years from now the roadways will be just as congested as they are today...

john1701a · March 2004

> perhaps 20 years from now

What in the world would make a person think so much time is needed? If an average vehicle is only in service for 8 years anyway, that's over 2 full cycles, which more than is enough to replace everything. And in that same time, a vehicle will be remodeled at least 4 times. To revise so much, yet not improve the drive system that much would be a bit odd.

So I would expect hybrids becoming standard much sooner.

And by basing the rollout on other new technologies of the past, it shouldn't take more than 10 years... of which, has already begun.

JOHN

Toyota Highlander Hybrid

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