Toyota Highlander Hybrid

hhva · July 2005

Thanks for the comments/links on the Hh safety issues. We averaged over 26MPG, driving 70 - 85 MPH on interstates on a 97 degree day w/ 5 people in a new Hh AWD.

Wonder if the snow/ice traction will be as outstanding as our '02 Highlander?

skipweis · July 2005

dear hhva,
was that mileage calculated by you based on gallons used vs. miles driven or just taken off the vehicle's computer?

About 4 months ago I placed an order for the new Highlander Hybrid, much of our decision was based on the Toyota fuel efficiency claim averaging between 27-31 MPG. I'm just wondering what real experience has been if there are any owners out there that have been driving them this summer.

And, if anyone has calculated the actual mileage as opposed to taking the vehicle's computer calculation as accurate. Just wondering how close the Toyota claim to with actual real life experiences.

thanks!

nimhrod · July 2005

Wow, those articles in the Times are like a splash of cold water in the face. Though I'm still keen on the idea of green technology, I'm seriously re-thinking my paying a $5,000 premium over a "luxed out" regular Highlander- especially when the real-world gas mileage difference is turning out to be much less than anticipated. As much as I'm psyched over the Wow factor and the green element I'm asking myself whether I want to pay such a premium for a newly introduced car who's value may drop once the initial enthusiasm dies down.

Anyone else feeling the rush subside?

gazguzler · July 2005

I think we should all plug in our data here:
http://www.greenhybrid.com/compare/mileage/
to get something definitive about our experiences with consumption.

Hybrid technology being used to make a V6 into a V8 would be how GM would've approached it. Why not make a V4 into a V6 and get better MPG than the V4?

I think it's fair to say that anyone who'd want/need 31 or 33 MPG shouldn't buy the HH. It just doesn't get that mileage and the EPA estimates are way off for all hybrids but particularly this one. Plus, if you're buying for power you'd have to justify the premium of $7k. Before that's been framed as how much time to get your money back from fuel savings.

We now know the answer to that is never. Now its how much would you pay for 38 more horsepower. I was told by an ad exec that 90% of car advertising is to make customers (whove already bought!) feel good about their decision. The HH ad (zooming past a sportscar) makes me cringe, especialy when I think that sports car is probably getting better gas mileage than me.

The computer seems reasonably accurate when compared to odometer/fill up calculations. A couple of points of in their favor.

All gas pumps cut off as if the tank is full. But when I pull it out a little and then slowly put more in I get another 2 gallons! Anyone else had this? I dont get this filling my old 4Runner.

Also, has anyone worked out how much is left in the tank when the warning light comes on?

phoebeisis · July 2005

Yes,but a 20 mpg to 25 mpg saves a lot-twice as much-more gasoline than a 40mpg to 50 mpg.The 20 to 25 is much more important.
20 to 25 mpg saves 1 gallon per 100 miles-20=5 gallons/100m 25/100m=4 gallons /100 1 gallon saved.
40/100m=2.5 gallons 50/100m=2gallons .5 gallons saved
Small mpg changes in poor mpg vehicles are more important than big changes in efficient vehicles..
The NYTimes article savages the HH,but the testing wasn't "correct"-not even close.It was essentially a highway test and you would expect the 2 V-6's to be essentially equal on a hy test.Not much energy recaptured on the hy.It is essentially ICE VS ICE-no surprise.If you did the same test with a Prius-against a tiny low hp Atkinson cycle 4 cyl the results would be the same.Take a look at how the Echo performs on the hy-about like a Prius.Most vehicles now-my Titan V-8 and my Pilot V-6 both can beat their hy EPA numbers with the ac blasting(New Orleans) going 70+mph.The Titan 20+(EPA 19) and the Pilot-23+(epa 22).
I wouldn't let the NYT article sway me much.The numbers returned here-average about 26 mixed driving- are much better than a 6 cyl High would produce.Folks who have them regularly complain of 15-16 mpg city.They can get 25+ mpg hy of course.The 4 cyl Highlander is a different story.If you are very careful you might beat the HH on the hy,and come close in the city.It is a 10-11 sec 0-60 vehicle of course,and has very little "passing power" at 70 mph.Thanks.Charlie
PS The NYT has an obvious PC bias,and it is naughty in the PC world to push performance.Yes,I would rather a 4cyl HH;and it might come someday,but as was noted above, the HH and the R400 were developed together,and the R400 customers were catered too.The HH customers just came along for the ride.

phoebeisis · July 2005

Nimrod,with any luck the article will drop prices on the HH-a big plus.The close to $40,000 price is the main downside to the HH vs a regular V-6 Highlander.If the premium drops to the $3000 it should be-they-HH's-will be a "bargain".Early results here show about 25-26 mpg in mixed driving.Probably 5+ mpg better than a very carefully driven V-6 only Highlander.Hy mpg will be close,but it will have a big-maybe 10 mpg-advantage in city driving.Most "regular" V-6 Highlanders get 14-16 mpg city-(yes,folks here with V-6 will do better,but they are mpg fanatics).
Let's hope prices drop as a result of NYT poisoned pen.Thanks.Charlie

waltrde · July 2005

My understanding is that improved fuel economy was never a prime design objective in Toyota's hybrid designs. For the Prius, the prime objective was actually minimizing exhaust emissions and improved fuel economy was a side benefit. Toyota's Prius ads always touted clean and green for the not gas savings. Improved fuel economy was clearly not a design objective with the HH/RH, improved performance was the chief goal. I personally believe that Toyota's long term plans behind hybrid development is preparation for fuel cell vehicles. On the other hand Honda's emphasis for it's hybrids until the Accord was fuel economy (especially the Insight) and this is what the press and public ran with.

Anyone interested in saving money on a mid-size SUV should not buy an hybrid. In fact if recouping the hybrid premium is the major factor, I would recommend against buying any hybrid with possible exception of an Insight.

Reading the More Thirsty Than You'd Think article, I noticed that one individual used premium gas. Unless an engine is optimized for higher octane, higher grades don't help at all, they actually contain less energy per volume unit. I know from experience with my first Prii and anecdotal evidence from other Prius owners online, that the Prius doesn't like high octane gas at all. Unlike the Prius owner's manual, the HH manual does say that a higher octane rating than 87 can provide enhance performance, but what part of performance is enhanced? Toyota used to claim a few more horsepower on the 3.0 liter V-6 with premium gas, but I don't find that on any data I've found for the 3.3 in the Highlander. Unless the engine can achieve higher power output using high grade poorer mpg would be the result due the lower energy content of high octane gas.

On the extra 2 gallons, I believe that the HH has a rubber fuel bladder like the Prius. The fuel tanks in Toyota hybrids have a rubber fuel bladder to reduce evaporative emissions. It creates back pressure on the filler that can cause the gas pump to shut off prematurely. This has been extensively documented in the Prius online community. I first saw mention of it with the '04. The amount of gas you can squeeze in seems to vary a bit and I believe it is related to the alignment of the bladder to the outer tank. The better the alignment, the less you can squeeze in. Think of blowing up a balloon in a square box. A square balloon would need less pressure fill the corners than a round one. The tank of the Highlander is rather complex in shape, so the bladder is shaped to fit. If it isn't aligned perfectly, you have to stretch it further to fill it completely. It sounds like your's isn't aligned quite right. Some Prius owners have been able to get their tanks replaced under warranty. Even under the best conditions, the fill level of the tank will vary somewhat based on ambient temperature because the bladder is more elastic the warmer it gets.

I have no idea what's left in the tank once the warning light comes on. Expect some variability because of the bladder. It could be significantly lower for a tank with a misaligned bladder. The same could be true in extreme cold weather.

phoebeisis · August 2005

The break even on the HH vs another midsized SUV is 125000 miles or less.This assumes
1)$3/gal gas over 125000 miles-good bet.
2)The HH get 25mpg(current average is ~26mpg for you folks) and other gets 18mpg.The V-6 High gets 19 "average" according to CR.It gets 13 city 25 high and 22 on their "trip".No V-6 midsized SUV will do any better than the Highlander.The 4 cyl High could do very well-same for CRV(but it is somewhat smaller and not available with Curtain ABs yet).Most Midsized will do much more poorly that the High V-6:Explorer-Envoy-Trailblazer-.Bigger SUV's do terribly-10 mpg city-Tahoe-Subur-Exped etc.Many folks will be downsizing to the HH-they wil make out immediately since the "buy' prices will be so close.
Well,that is it.This ignores tax breaks and interest not earned on extra cost.It will be interesting to see CR actual numbers.
The NYT articles were essentially on hy miles,not heavy city where it will "shine"Charlie

stevedebi · August 2005

"2)The HH get 25mpg(current average is ~26mpg for you folks) and other gets 18mpg.The V-6 High gets 19 "average" according to CR.It gets 13 city 25 high and 22 on their "trip".No V-6 midsized SUV will do any better than the Highlander.The 4 cyl High could do very well-same for CRV(but it is somewhat smaller and not available with Curtain ABs yet).Most Midsized will do much more poorly that the High V-6:Explorer-Envoy-Trailblazer-.Bigger SUV's do terribly-10 mpg city-Tahoe-Subur-Exped etc.Many folks will be downsizing to the HH-they wil make out immediately since the "buy' prices will be so close."

I have to disagree on your statements about the Honda CR-V, which is only marginally smaller than the HH. It gets 27 MPG highway and 22 City, real world, not EPA mileages. Plus there are no restrictions on the Real Time 4WD system. And the CR-V is about $10K cheaper, even for the top of the line SE model.

I will grant that the HH will accelerate and ride better (because Honda designs vehicles differently than Toyota, not because of a design defficiency), but the question is about cost / vs MPG. In environmental terms, the CR-V, which does not incur the "enviro" penalty of having to incorporate traction batteries in the manufacture, or the "envrio" penaly to disposing of those batteries, may well beat out the HH. Also, the mechanical systems (especially the software modules) are simpler or incorporate time-tested technology. I don't anticipate having any trouble making 200K miles on my CR-V (not that I will go that far - I intend to let my son drive it to colleage - in 12 years).

It's all really moot anyway. If you like the HH, go ahead and buy it, but don't expect it to be justified when compared to all the alternatives. It is a good vehicle so far, and has great performance. So enjoy!

phoebeisis · August 2005

stevedebi,we really don't disagree.I said that the Highlander 4cyl and the CRV were the only SUVs that would-will(maybe) give the HH a run for it's money mpg wise.I did say that the CRV is somewhat smaller vs your marginally smaller??I was wrong on the side curtains-the 2005 CRV has them standard-big plus!
The CRV is smaller,and it has less interior room.CR numbers are for the second row seat
56.5 vs 57 shoulder room
29 vs 29.5
3.5 vs 4 head room
Of course,the HH has a 3rd row(7 passenger vs 5 pass) which the CRV doesn't.Granted it is only suitable for 10 year old kids,but a lot of families have 10 year old kids.
CR's MPG numbers on the 2005 4x4 are
21 average vs V-6 Highlander 19
15 city vs 13 city
29 hy vs 25 hy
26 trip vs 22 trip
EPA 22 -27 VS EPA 18-24.
The CRV beats the V-6 High by 2-4 mpg-just about what the EPA results predict.
CR hasn't tested the HH,so we don't have any"real world" numbers to compare in that respect.My bet-the HH will do 26 hy and 18 city on CRs test loops.Just a guess,and you can have a laugh on me when the real numbers come in.I'll go further with my guessing-THE HH WILL BEAT THE CRV on CR's city loop(strictly my guess,but I'm willing to bet genuine PAYPAL $$ on it-a friendly $5 bet?)
The CRV is an excellent SUV,but it is shorter181 vs 184),narrower(70-72),carries fewer passengers(5 vs 7) and is a LOT slower accelerating-10.4 vs 7.3 0-60.It is a LOT less expensive-at least $10000 vs the AWD HH currently.MPG-well we know EPA results on Hybrids are a bit less predictive of real world results,so let's call that"PENDING".The HH is "near luxury" 7 passenger SUV the CRV is an excellent 5 passenger "not luxury" SUV.
The HH beats everything in it's class in mpg and acceleration-heck of a car.Charlie
PS I am really hoping CR will test the HH soon-I check their web site 2 times a day!!I suspect they don't want to pay the ripoff markups many dealer were pushing.The NYT article might put paid to that for a while!
PPS I have a Pilot,and have had other Hondas.They were-are-excellent,as good or better that the Toyotas I've had.Honda generally makes peppier motors than Toyota with slightly better mpg and a bit harder accelerating.Toyota has trumped Honda with it's Hybrids(PRIUS vs Civic hybrid),and the HH which doesn't really have any direct Honda competition-maybe the MDX which has more room,but is slower and much thirstier-price is a wash.The Pilot has more room than a MDX or a HH,but it is much thirstier and slower.
The near LUX market demands acceleration-this one of the main reasons that the CRV just isn't comparable to the HH.The 4cyl Highlander -same story-great fuel efficient vehicle,but it doesn't have the accel the mid $30000 SUV's have.The 4 cyl Highlander is every bit the vehicle that the CRV is(and bigger),but it isn't near lux acceleration wise.It is hard to buy a $36000 HH when you can get a 4 cyl Highlander FWD for $21999!!

nimhrod · August 2005

I spent a while on the phone with several IRS folks asking about whether this year's Hybrid Tax Deduction is available if you lease. After being put on hold several times, I wa told that this deductionis available whether you lease or buy. As long as you are the original owner/lessee you can claim the deduction.

I also asked about the rumored-still-being-debated energy related tax changes for next year. For that I was transferred to a department that handles these issues. The gentleman explained that he'd been told that some sort of tax credit was being debated for next year's purchasers. And that this is potentially much greater than the $2000 deduction (which, at a 33% tax rate amounts to $666 break) A tax credit would come right off the top. He further said that the amounts would be larger for vehicles that were more efficient. Don't guess that will help the HH or RX400 that much, eh?

He referred to publication #535. I've heard the credit credits could be as high as $3000+ Anyone heard similar numbers?

chris911ny · August 2005

I have my new HH for about two weeks, driving this morning suddenly i got the message on the screen "CHECK HYBRID SYSTEM". In my way back to the dealer i also got the message "CHECK CSV SYSTEM". I left the car in the dealer, they didnt know the reason for that. Have anyone had similar or some kind of trouble with the HH?

discussion1 · August 2005

For what it is worth, here is 1 family's "real world" data.

Drove a brand new AWD HH (25 miles) on a family trip from Los Angeles/Anaheim to San Jose via HWY 5 over the weekend. 2 adults, 2 kids, a pile of luggage. Got 24.9 MPG

We were in a hurry, there was no time to "hyper mile". We drove it hard but safely.
We drove 66 miles in LA running errands before getting on HWY 5 north around Disneyland.
Zipped through the mountains north of LA at 65-70 when safe to do so.
Traffic condition on 5 northbound (in LA) was poor as usual, jam at every junction, temperature averaged 102-F, smog everywhere. We had the A/C on auto to maintain 72-F inside.
After the grapevine, we drove at 70-75 MPH on flat stretches of HWY 5 with spurts of 85 MPH to pass convoys of trucks.
The drive over HWY-152's twisty mountainous freeway was also at the posted 65 MPH whenever safe to do so.
We used cruise control whenever possible to take advantage of the drive computer and used engine braking "B" on all descent. The "B" system worked great when timed right. Descent was smooth and with little use of the brakes.

Darn good car, tight steering, easy to control, smooth, very stable even in high wind especially down the grapevine and along early stretches of HWY 5 north of LA. It takes curves surprisingly well with almost no body lean. It easily maintained HWY speed with tons of power to spare on steeper uphill grade (HWY 5 amd 152). Several monster SUV's tailgated smaller cars in #1 lane on 5 to "push" them aside on various uphill only to slow down half way up tehachapi barely able to maintain freeway speed. We just passed them. Not sure why their V8's would have difficulties.

Not sure why gas mileage is such a big fuss here, this is just a higher powered and technically sophisticated SUV (VDIM) that happens to get decent mileage. If gas mileage is the focus, there are better choices at significantly lower cost.

phoebeisis · August 2005

discussion1,there actually isn't a midsized SUV that is comfortable for 4-5 people(7 if they are small enough) and a ton of luggage that will1) casually blast past V-8 SUVs like you did on uphills(thanks to 7.3 0-60) 2)Will get 25 honest mpg.
The Biturbo Cayenne($80000-$111000+) is faster,but no chance in the world it would get 25mpg on your trip.
The 4 cyl Highlander will come close on mpg,but it is extremely slow.The CRV same story- much slower(10.5 0-60) and a little smaller-.
If you want a midsized SUV with hard acceleration(let's be polite and call it "passing power")and 4cyl midsized suv mpg-then the HH is it.Frankly,I don't know why anyone would want a RX400-Why spend $10000 more for a slightly less roomy vehicle??I've never understood the Lexus lure(on their lower end vehicles-the dolled up Camrys)-buy a dolled up Toyota for $10000 more??Charlie

leenybean · August 2005

What are the advantages of buying the Hybrid Hylander over the regular one?
How long will it take to make up the difference in savings buying one tank of gas per week?

leanybean

cdptrap · August 2005

Dear Leenybean,
Your questions are common but the real answers come from your own analysis if you are seriously considering getting a new car. I like to suggest asking the following questions first before deciding whether Hybrid Highlander (HH) is worth considering.

What *other* car would you purchase assuming a HH does not exist today?

How far do you drive each day, 5 days a week?
How many miles city? country lanes? freeway?
How many mountain miles? dirt tracks?
How far do you drive on weekends?
How often do you visit this or that point of interest a week or a month?
How fast must you drive on each type of roads? 40? 60? 85?
Other travel patterns that only you know.

From these answers, you can determine the annual mileage for street-, country-lane- and freeway driving.

Now compare the mileage a highlander hybrid *may* get against the mileage of the car you will buy if the HH did no exist. This will give you the best comparison in terms of price, gas savings and so on.

My bias opinion is that if you would buy a Prius or a Hondya Hybrid or a little Diesel (VW?) because they meet your needs, then HH may not be useful. Only you can decide.

Hopefully this helps.

c2rosa · August 2005

Here are some snippets from an
Interesting article in the NYT - July 31, 2005

The all-wheel-drive version of the Toyota Highlander Hybrid uses a
powertrain almost identical to the one in the Lexus RX 400h, and both
vehicles carry fuel economy ratings of 31 miles per gallon in town and 27 on
the highway. But try as I might, and I did try hard, I could not budge
the Highlander Hybrid above 25 m.p.g. on a recent road test in eastern
Connecticut.
........
I calculated my mileage in the Highlander Hybrid as 23 m.p.g. (although
the car's computer said it was 25).
........
I sought to stay in the fuel-conserving electric mode and tried not to
take advantage of the car's quick acceleration. But the algorithm that
switches the gas engine on and off seemed to resist driving techniques
intended to use the least fuel; for instance, even slight pressure on
the accelerator brings the gasoline engine online, driving down the
mileage. While the power delivery was very smooth, the onset of the V-6
engine results in a quiver and some rather un-Toyotalike vibrations.
........
Compared with my own Subaru Outback, it is hard to see advantages to
the Highlander Hybrid. My Outback is a PZEV, or partial-zero-emission
vehicle, with only negligible tailpipe emissions. (Classifications for the
RX and Highlander hybrids vary by state, but none are as clean as
PZEV's.) And in my experience, the Outback's mileage is at least as good as
the Highlander Hybrid's.
........

phoebeisis · August 2005

There are over 30 posts recording "fillup"mpg here.Many aren't calculated,but the calculated and readout results are fiirly close.The lowest-from memory-is 23+,highest>30mpg.The average is 25-26(haven't done it lately).No doubt there is bias here-the folks with the good numbers post-poor numbers don't.However,these folks are mainly new to hybrids,so they should be able to improve their results as they "learn" how to max out their mpg-their numbers will probably improve.I doubt their is any significant"breakin" with modern cars,so I won't mention that;there might be a "learning curve" for the cars ECU,but I tend to doubt that that will improve mpg much either.
The break even with $2.75 gas and $5000 initial difference and 18 vs 25 mpg(this would assume mainly city-suburban)is about 120000 miles-or 8 years at 300 miles a week.
$5000/$2.75 + X/25= X/18 This ignores tax breaks and money lost to interest.
The 18 mpg for the V-6 Highlander is a "guesstimate" based on CR city-hy mpg for the V-6(13-25 from memory).I have biased it slightly toward city-surburban driving-what I do)
The V-6 Highlander is probably the best mpg wise of the V-6 Midsized SUV's,and waaaay ahead of the Tahoe,Suburban,Explorer,Trailblazer,Escalade,Pilot,Expedition etc which are the real "targets" of the $35000(now,or soon they will sell in this range) HH.One more bump in gas prices,and folks will downsize-forever- from the big SUV's.They are bailing out in droves,but GM's pricing gave them one last gasp,and the horrible resale(used Suburbans have to be given away now-1 year only one worth maybe 40% of cost on a trade)
So,if you keep it for 120000 miles and gas averages $2.75,you will get all the benefits of the HH over the V-6 H-FREE! What do you think the chances are that gasoline will average just $2.75 over the next 8 years-or 120000 miles???ZERO!!
HEY-GIVE US SOME "BAD" MPG NUMBERS!!!Only at fillups,of course,I don't want the 18 mpg you got climbing Pikes Peak!!(Actually it would be interesting to see some worst case short run numbers-just make sure it is clear it isn't a "tank".
There are "some numbers"-is the HH 7 mpg better than the V-6 H?EPA says 18-24 vs 33-28,I'm waiting for the CR numbers.If you do much city drivng,the HH is a very good bet.Remember,the V-6 H is the best of the V-6 SUVs.Charlie

discussion1 · August 2005

Interesting but repetitious. I guess some press has to say something "controversial" with all the interest in hybrid technology. What is the point of joining the chorus that supports hybrid?

It seems pointless to pick apart news articles these days when mass media is more interested in making $$$ than providing really useful information.

To be fair, our hand calculated MPG was 25 MPG while on-board showed 24.9 for our most recent mad dash from LA into SJ on HWY 5. The computational discrepancies is most likely the writer's error. As for engine coming on before we "think" it should, it depends on many factors, not just what we "think" it should do. How does the writer explain a stretch of LA street when we moved at 40 MPH on electric only for about 8 blocks? This happened again and again many times in LA and SJ on seemingly flat road ways. We now think the roads were sloped ever slightly so the drive computer took advantage of it.

We are continuing our Great American Summer Trip into Northern CA Sierras/Mountain Country and then on up into Oregon the rest of August. If we have more interesting HH related info, we will be happy to share with others here.

Enjoy your summer!

discussion1 · August 2005

Hi Charlie,

We did not post those intermediate MPG but the worst for us was 3.9 MPG gunning up a steep grade at 65 MPH (posted legal) on HWY 152.

The best in-use was 38 MPG on a flat stretch of street (8 blocks) in LA on Katella on the way to Albertson's :-).

The top-of-the-line was > 60MPG on all downhill :-) but like I said, we did not post these because they are too short to be of interest.

Will tell you how we do In the Sierras, Mt. Shasta & Lassen and the Cascade range when we leave SJ for northern CA and OR.

gazguzler · August 2005

I think it's fair to conclude that the purchase of a HH shouldn't be made on fuel savings and the answer to the earn-back question is not within the life of the vehicle.

People who've flocked to the HH to have their cake (an SUV) and eat it (low MPG) realize Toyota was really saying "let them eat cake." What you get is a SUV with great performance and average MPG. That's an engineering but not an environmental marvel. When you consider that some (like Tom Friedman) estimate that we're really paying $7 a gallon (with wars, health problems and associated costs), youd hope that everyone would be trying to conserve energy and not getting more performance for the same amount of energy.

Maybe it's just not reasonable to have our cake and eat it. If we're concerned about these issues, maybe we should be in the Prius. But a 4cyl HH engineered, computed and geared for conservation (instead of performance) would've allowed us to delude ourselves a little longer.

tradscott · August 2005

They haven't downsized yet. I just read that SUV sales hit an all time high in July. The recent runup in gas prices may have surprised some drivers, but I don't think it is painful enough for most people to change their habits.

Hybrids are a good trend, but don't really yeild as large a benifit as advertised. HH owners are really only saving a very small amount of gasoline. It only gets a little better mileage than the V6 Highlander. And that is really the only SUV that it is fair to compare against. Most of the other SUVs have capabilities that the H and especially the HH does not, even if most people do not use these capabilities (this is a different problem).

I think that hybrids are a great trend in general, but I also think that the trend toward higher performance and very small mileage gains is not a good one. Similar performance (not better) to the V6 H and even better mileage, especially on the highway, would have interested me more.

discussion1 · August 2005

Very well said and I agree with the V4 HH with cylinder deactivation to save gas. I will disagree slightly on 3 points then must run to continue our trip...

1. Not all of us buy an SUV because we want an SUV. I would have preferred a 4x4 Tundra for off-roading while my wife would prefer a plush comfortable car.

2. We have a 94 Mercury Villager still going strong at 230K miles. Our '86 Mercury Lynx lasted through 210 miles. So it is "well within life of the vehicle" if you consider mileage.

3. Our oil dependent economy and social system will take a lot more than a few hybrids to change. When people are forced to live 75 miles away from their office due to affordable housing and family concerns, when development is based on sprawls and conversion of farmlands to giant mansions, one is forced to drive everywhere. More of us are on the road 4 hours a day just commuting to and from work, more of us have monster trucks and SUV's, more of us drive like mad men and women, of course there is now a perceived need for larger powerful engine.

To break this cycle of consume-consume and more consumption means more than just cars and gas. It means making personal changes, doing the little things individually that hopefully can make a collective difference. I happen to think a HH is a decent start.

Off we go....

sbgirl · August 2005

You definitely need to be in this mindset when purchasing the HH
"I think it's fair to conclude that the purchase of a HH shouldn't be made on fuel savings"

I traded in my 30+ mpg Honda Civic for my HH. I knew I needed a bigger car with the fact that I will be starting a family soon. I chose to look at SUVs primarily rather then cars, such as the Camry for my personal reasons. I also knew that the HH would be with me until it dies. So with all of these factors and the fact that I prefer Toyota and Honda over any other manufacturer. The HH was the obvious choice as I will be supporting the technology, getting better MPG then a regular Highlander (which I would've purchased if HH was pushed back again), and knowing how long I would have it, it will be the step in the right direction.

I do have a confession....I'm a hybrid snob.
It's funny when another Highlander pulls up next to me, the first thing I look for is the Hybrid Synergy badge.

gazguzler · August 2005

Be careful, you're likely to rear-end a H trying to find the HH badge . . . its SO small. Ive heard Ts going to make something more obvious and Ive seen big hybrid stickers in windows and wonder if thats it.

On the odometer at death, I have a 4Runner with over a million. I know a car can go over 100k BUT I suspect that once you get there you're going to have end of warranty issues with 3 motors! Let's keep this list going a decade cause I'd be willing to bet a gallon that no one's going to earn money back on gas savings. But who's going to buy on the 'rosy' scenario of earning back in a decade?

I think we need to let this discussion go. When the EPA guesstimates came out it was fun math. But with the real numbers we can stop that and say no one should buy this vehicle for gas savings. No one here is boasting about savings. They're boasting, like the ads show, about overtaking sports cars.

jbollt · August 2005

I may be missing one, but according to Jim Press, COO of Toyota NA sales, the upcoming Camry Hybrid will be the 5th Hybrid. I count...(1) Prius, (2) RX400h, (3) Highlander Hybrid, (4) Camry Hybrid..I wonder what is in between? Or is he counting Gen 1 Prius?

Jim speaks about half way thru the short video...
Camry Hybrid announcement Video

phoebeisis · August 2005

I have to disagree on everyone who says"you won't break even mpg wise-during the life cycle of the vehicle".
If the NYT tests were the final word,that would be right.It isn't.Those were essentially hy mpg tests.We have 20+ posters with over 25 mpg !!
We do have "hard numbers" on the V-6 Highlander VS HH 18-24 VS 31-28 EPA.Yes,I agree that the numbers are "relative" and biased for the HH.However we also have CR's V-6 H numbers 13-25(from memory).Once we get CR's HH numbers will have some very good ,hard numbers to compare.I would bet CR will get something like c17-18 h26.
The V-6 H is the BEST midsized V-6 SUV mpg wise.Many of the rest-Explorer-Trailblazer-Pilot are very,very thirsty.
"Our numbers" here are better than the NYT numbers.
We'll see once we get CR's numbers.If the difference is just 4 mpg the break even is 230000 miles with $2.75 gas..If gas is $4/gal it is 160000 at 21 vs 25 mpg .If gas is $4 and difference is 18 vs 25 break even is 80,000.
Lotta guessing-we will see with CR's numbers.Charlie
PS-Yes,I would have preferred the 160hp 4 cyl Hybrid also.It would give 2-3 mpg better everwhere-something like the Escape-just faster,quieter, and more reliable.I expect to the a 4cyl HH in a couple of years.Heck,maybe a 4cyl Diesel HH delivering an honest 31 mpg High and honest 31 mpg city!!

junie · August 2005

I have had my HH for about 3 weeks and am thinking about adding an in-dash navigation system (probably from Car Toys.) Has anyone done this? Do I have to be concerned about the electrical system for the Hybrid any more than a non-hybrid? The Pioneer system I'm considering has an iPod cable and XM radio all accessible on the touch screen...any experience with either of these?

gazguzler · August 2005

I think because there were two Priuses (what is the plural?). This is the second now.

sbgirl · August 2005

True, it is too small. I tend to also look for the chrome rear "handle" where the Toyota badge is above the license plate.

I'm keeping my fingers crossed that I won't feel a huge hit on the wallet when it goes over 100k....I wonder if there are any Priuses that have over 100k yet.

phoebeisis · August 2005

There are several Prius on Ebay with 109K to 167K that apparently are still running well.If there had been huge numbers of battery failures(or any for that matter) the Prius Forums folks would be howling.
I think after 4 years of service here-USA- and a bit more in Japan-both Honda and Toyota-you can relax on the battery failure issue.I bet (of course you'll never be able to get a welsher like me to pay off) the vast majority of Hybrids will be out of service for other reasons waaay before they have an "full" battery failure.One other member here has mentioned that the battery pack is actually a module of several-5-10-20- replaceable batteries so they can be replaced individually and fairly low cost.
Heck,it the packs completely fail ,the Prius will still beat Corolla mpg by virtue of the tiny Atkinson motor.True it will be a slow dog,and won't regenerate or use the electric motor,but it will still be a fuel efficient car.Dump the battery and go on your way!!(Maybe not so easy,but it should have a limp mode of some sort)
Just checked CR-still no HH,but it does have some prelim."words" on the RX400-so I hope it does full testing soon!Thanks.Charlie

landdriver · August 2005

In comparing mpgs of the HH to that of the HL you folks are missing a point made earlier in this discussion that, in addition to improved mpgs, the HH's HP is better than that of the HL as well. Thus using 25mpg vs 18mpg as a comparison for break even isn't too valid IMO. Instead you should use a guesstimate of what a hypothetical HL that has the same HP as the HH would get in terms of mpg, say 15?. So you're getting the same performance as a 15mpg vehicle while getting 25mpgs.

(BTW I think 18mpg for mixed city/highway driving is a pretty accurate number for the HL; people on the HL boards have been reporting 17-21 mpg mixed city/highway for the V6, combination 2WD and 4WD; I personally get 19, and mine is the older 3.0, not the newer 3.3L, V6, so 1 mpg less, or 18, is a good number.)

Also, as an owner of a (non-hybrid) HL, what gets under my skin is you're ignoring the intangibles of owning the HH. When I test drove the HH a few weeks ago I noticed that (at least on the Limited) there is a really cool brushed metal "Highlander" badge on the scuff plate at the bottom of the the driver's door opening. Well guess what? The regular HL doesn't have that nice classy touch! Also, some of the more astute observers may have noticed that the rear garnish (above the license plate) on the regular HL is merely painted the same color as the vehicle instead of being chrome like it is on the HH. So no matter how much I kill myself in the sun rubbing away with paste wax to get the rear garnish shining, it'll never match the flair of the chrome rear garnish as you HH snobs drive by in your (electrically) air-conditioned cars with that new-car smell and those really cool NAV screens with fancy graphics displaying hybrid energy transfer status . (And to add insult to injury I'll never be able to blow you guys away at a stop light.

)

gagrice · August 2005

Heck,it the packs completely fail ,the Prius will still beat Corolla mpg by virtue of the tiny Atkinson motor.

If the charge on the Toyota hybrids go below a certain level the car will NOT move. Batteries deteriorate and many times we do not realize it until we need them. It is true that there have not been battery failures as of yet. That is not the expense some owners are experiencing. If your warranty is up you are in for a shock on most hybrid parts.

gazguzler · August 2005

I'm not sure that "you" or "we" are missing points; we just have different priorities.

I think there are two priorities here. And that CNN article said it best:
"Currently, some hybrid cars, like the Toyota Prius, are engineered to offer maximum fuel efficiency while others, like the Lexus 400h SUV, also from Toyota, offer increased performance at the cost of the best possible fuel economy."

I wanted maximum fuel efficiency. Some clearly wanted more power (and more refinement and luxury).

Interestingly, that article went on to say:
"Owners of future hybrid vehicles might be able to choose between high gas mileage or more performance by pressing a button on the instrument panel, said Press, according to the Automotive News report.

(I read an early review (probably prototype) that said the HH had this and I was expecting.)

But, more importantly, that would make you and us happy. You could click it on "Muscle" and we'd click it on "Green."

Maybe we'd find out we're hypocrites.

I don't want to denigrate those who want a modern day muscle car, especially as I was just at a stop light when a car, on the next block parks with his hazards on. I needed to clear the lane and there's a BMW Z4 next to me that wanted to block me.

Suffice to say that this HH accelerates faster than a Z4, which surprised me nearly as much as that Z4 owner.

But then I looked in the rear view mirror and saw my two kids and realized that was a bone-headed move and Id not made their planet a better place today.

That button would be nice.

gazguzler · August 2005

I felt good about the drag race till I just saw the Z4's cheaper than the HH!!

:-)

bg3 · August 2005

I own a 2003 V6 Highlander and I have loved it for 40,000+ miles. It has brought me 21.5 mpg overall. We need the 2006 hybrid to bring us pretty strong mpg performance in order to make the case for Hybrid vs standard (25 mpg isn't nearly good enough). :shades:

otis1 · August 2005

Has anyone checked out the carmax site in laurel? Their HH's are $2000 off!!! The base 2WD can be purchased for $31,788. If you couple this with the potential $3000 federal tax credit (next year), suddenly the mythical "break even" point doesn't seem so far away.

On a related note, what does this say about HH sales?? I always assumed carmax took off $1000 as some token gesture becuase they sell so many cars. but to knock it off another $1000 tells me they are trying to move these cars. are some toyota dealers starting to sweat realizing that as soon as the waiting list dries up, there won't be much demand for this car?

gagrice · August 2005

There will be a rush first of next year. I think you can use that to your advantage in buying a hybrid now. Let the dealer know you have NO problem waiting until the tax credit takes affect. I think you will see the prices head back up next year. May be best to get a big break now rather than take a chance when they are lined up again for the tax credit.

phoebeisis · August 2005

CReports just tested the Escape Hybrid,the numbers are indicative of what the HH AWD will do.
They tested an AWD Escape-EPA 33/29-it weighed 3845lbs.
They got 26 combined; 22city 29 hy and 30 trip(rare to see trip better than hy-must be the stopping-slowing helped)
If the HH(31/27 epa) performs like the Escape it will do this for CR
20 City 27 hy 28 trip-the combined isn't a measure nember,so I ignore it.
Unfortunately CR is going to test the RX400 30/26-they are all AWD and get poorer EPA MPG than the HH AWD-by 1 mpg.
I'm guessing the CR numbers will be
19- city 26 hy- 26 trip.The RX400 has lower EPA- by 1 mpg than the HH AWD-not sure why-the weight is just 100 lbs more-maybe different tires-wheels effect gearing for better acceleration??Just don't know.
I expect the RX400 will be tested soon.
These are just guesses,but 19 mpg city is 6 mpg better than the V-6 version.I "derived" these numbers sing the Escape H's 22/33 CR/EPA=2/3rd.Multiplied 2/3 x30=20 mpg(then adj down 1 just for luck).Charlie

ikramerica · August 2005

I think it was fun, but it isn't a performance feel. The drivetrain, since it is constantly regenerating when not being pushed, always feels like it is fighting progress, even when you press the gas. Sure you move, but the feel is that you are forcing the car to move.

But it is never wanting for power, and really gets great mileage compared to the non-hybrid SUVs it competes against. Just, the $9000 premium is beyond stupid and just can't be justified, even in improved gas mileage. Even if you get twice the gas mileage (you don't), and counting the tax break (but also taking into effect worse residuals and fewer initial discounts on purchase), it would take you over 100,000 miles to near break even, and that doesn't even account for the present value of money, the fact the batteries might wear out by then outside of warranty, etc.

I find it sad that rather than promoting the new technology, Toyota has decided in this case to gouge the enthusiastic buyer, which will make the new technology harder to come by. We know from Honda that you need not gouge the consumer to sell a hybrid.

Why must Toyota do so?

tourguide · August 2005

it would take you over 100,000 miles to near break even

You are right about this, and it IS an issue. Even with the tax DEDUCTION (it IS a tax deduction - not a credit as I see so often quoted here) you are buying at a premium. This has been discussed quite a bit on these boards and should be a known fact going into a purchase.

the fact the batteries might wear out by then outside of warranty, etc.

I don't think they MIGHT wear out, they will over time. All batteries will. How many people have ever owned a cordless razor? I've owned several and inevitably the batteries die. It is an inescapable fact that it is going to happen, with any battery. More comparably, how many people have ever replaced a car battery? These things wear out, plain and simple. There are those on this board who talk about the modularity of the batteries and how a single cell can be replaced for about $50 - this is an often quoted figure. $50 would be the cost of the part, not Toyota labor. Anyone here think Toyota labor will be incredibly affordable? Anyone here willing to take a chance and run the hybrid down to the mom-n-pop garage for an affordable alternative? When you buy into this technology everyone should think about these things - long and hard - then make a choice based on their own proprities.

I find it sad that rather than promoting the new technology, Toyota has decided in this case to gouge the enthusiastic buyer

This has always been the case with any new technology. First adopters frequently get the shaft price wise. Anyone remember the $300 VCR or DVD? There is no sense to these things. New technology just costs more. Only after it has been around for a while will it become more affordable. At that point too, it has been improved upon. That is what I think about too with the hybrids. Time will make them more feature rich and more affordable. Patience will pay off. On the other hand if you have the expendable resources - why not? Just be aware of your choices and thoughtful in your research.

stevedebi · August 2005

"You are right about this, and it IS an issue. Even with the tax DEDUCTION (it IS a tax deduction - not a credit as I see so often quoted here) you are buying at a premium."

You are correct at this time, but come Jan 1st, it will be a tax credit.

nimhrod · August 2005

First, I want to say that this board has been an incredible source of "real-time" information and advice. After taking into account the real mpg figures real users are getting, the weak tax deduction for 2004, the potentially much larger tax credit next year, and the price premium I called my dealer and told her I was going to hold off for now.

I agree with Tourguide, that first-adopters pay for that privilege. And I hope Toyota is reading customer, and potential customer feedback like this forum. I owned the first Honda S2000 in my area. It was great being the only one around, but the next year Honda made changes that I'd wished I'd waited for. And customer feedback fueled those changes.

For the hefty premium they want for the HHL, IMO, it should offer such things as:

1. A satellite radio button on such a high tech display. C'mon, they already have agreements with Sirius (best bet) and XM and they don't even set their new flagship SUV up to handle it? Hello? Yeah, I want to jerry-rig some peripheral device up and clutter that great dash. And while you're at it, spend a couple of bucks to enable mp3's. Heck, Prius includes Bluetooth and Smart Entry? But I guess they had to save something for the folks buying the RX400 so they'd feel better about spending another $10,000.

2. S.U.V. Sport Utility Vehicle. As in, it can be used for more than transporting people. Why in the heck does the rear hatch window NOT OPEN? Weight concerns? How much could a couple of hinges and a latch weigh/cost? This might knock out a couple of visits to Home Depot. And for those who suffer the "whompa, whompa, whompa" bass noises whenever they open the sunroof on the highway, the easy fix is to crack the rear window about 2 inches to equalize the pressure.

3. Auto-locking doors. What happened here? You don't appreciate those until you don't have them. Bad neighborhoods, car-jackings, irate ex-wives/wives, etc. My 10 year old 4Runner had those standard.

In summary, I still think it's a heck of a vehicle, but is causing many people to do a double take and more closely examine what they're getting for all that money. Maybe this is why they're not rolling off the lots, and why C@rMacks in MD is now offering $2000 off MSRP and has 16 on the lot. I'll probably wait until after January 1st and take advantage of any new tax breaks, and any fine tuning by Toyota. It will be interesting to see if Toyota has a price increase next year.

phoebeisis · August 2005

nimrod,that is certainly a smart play.If you actually get to drop $2000 off your tax bill as opposed to the $2000 deduct which is maybe $600 off the actual tax bill you would really have to get a heck of a deal to make up a $1400 difference.
Toyota is the main force behind the gouging early buyers,that is ALL DEALER and is something to file away.We should mention the worst offenders by name here on the forum.Just give asking price and true MSRP(ignore all the dealer dist add ons-they are essentially air).There is nothing actionable about posting asking price and the manufacturers MSRP.We will do the math.We will be giving the dealer free exposure just in case someone wants to buy a HH or whatever for only MSRP +$3000 or whatever.
The NYT article and the very high markups that the dealers have tried to get must being hurting sales.This is great for potential buyers.
If the $2000 off taxes were "on" today we could buy one for the equivalent of $30000 or less-THE CARMAX FWD base model-The HH becomes a MUCH BETTER DEAL at $32000(really $30,000).
Now,with a $5000-$6000 price difference between a HH and an H it would take 125000 miles to break even;at under $3000 difference in initial price, the break even is much lower -maybe 70,000-80,000 miles.This all assumes that the HH delivers ~6-7 mpg better over the life of the vehicle and ~$2.75 gas.
Everyone should copy the NYT article and bring it with them to the dealer as a bargaining point."Why should I pay $7000-$10000 more for the same mpg?".
The HH would have been a real winner-sales wise-if it had the 4 cyl and could have numbers like the Escape Hybrid-36 city.Having a base model-no 3rd row,keep the safety stuff but equip it like a base 4 cyl- for about $27000 msrp.The dealers could still beat another $1500 over MSRP over us and it would sell.A $40000 car is a tough sell-maybe 15% of buyers can afford it-probably 40% can afford a $30000 car.
Oh well-at least the prices are looking up.Thanks.Charlie

stevedebi · August 2005

" The HH would have been a real winner-sales wise-if it had the 4 cyl and could have numbers like the Escape Hybrid-36 city.

Escape Hybrid owners have been getting slightly better MPG than the HH, but I have often wondered if the HH would just be too underpowered by an I4. Namely, if the ICE has to kick in all the time and rev to a higher RPM, it may use more fuel than the current model. Plus having a lot less "zip". Heck, they couldn't even get the current engine into the Atkinson cycle...

cdptrap · August 2005

May be they can try I4/V4 with a higher power battery with no significant weight. This will let the battery do more work to get the car up to 40MPH quickly before the engine kicks in to do the rest. The current HH battery cut-off seems to be 30 MPH.

Another approach is to have the rear motor always kicks in to overcome inertia and then shuts off after 20 MPH. The front can take it to 40MPH. The rear motor currently does not turn on unless it detects a need for fast acceleration or slippage.

Yet another idea is to have a V6 that deactivates 2 cyl when possible.

A combo of the above should boost fuel economy without sacrificing "V8"-like performance.

phoebeisis · August 2005

STEVEDEBI,The Escape Hybrid is rated at about 3 mpg "better" than the HH,amd it is giving it's owners about 2-3 mpg better than the HH-The reports I have seen on their site are high 20's with an occasional low 30.Here the numbers average about 25-26,so they get about 2-3 better.
More interesting is that the Escape delivered 22 mpg(2/3 of EPA city) on the same city cycle that the V-6 Highlander delivered 13mpg.I am guessing that the RX400(CR will test it 1st -it is rated 30/26 AWD) will deliver 19-20 mpg on CR's city cycle-6-7 mpg better than the gasoline only V-6 on the High.
All are driving is city-suburban driving;this is why I emphasize the city cycles.Charlie PS The Ford Escape hybrid is a huge improvement over the V-6-10 mpg better in the CR city cycle.Of course,Ford is know for it fuel economy-poor fuel economy across the whole lineup(except the new F-150 V8-pretty decent)

nimhrod · August 2005

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the technology that Ford uses in the Escape Hybrid is leased from TOYOTA. And, it's Prius technology from the last generation. This year's Prius is 3rd Generation?

Obviously, they went the other way from Toyota and went for economy. Smart move to go the other way!

phoebeisis · August 2005

Yes,Ford actually did have a better idea and they licensed the Hybid tech from Toyota.I think it is the same tech as the 2004 Prius has-the only thing second rate about it is the Ford engine and chasis wrapped around the Hybrid "parts"(I think that is an in house Ford ICE motor).I would bet that the Hybrid parts are from the same suppliers that supply Toyota-probably 1st rate stuff.
I do wish Toyota had gone with a big 4cyl rather than the V-6.It probably would have been worth 2 mpg and had adequate acceleration.Unfortunately they would have had trouble selling a slowish $50000 SUV to their Lexus buyers,so we are all "stuck" with a 7.3 0-60 V-6 if we want a HH now.I doubt that a V-6 cost more than $150 more (than the 4)to produce,so no big price break would have come with the 4 cyl.Charlie

gordonr · August 2005

Ford licensed the hybrid technology from the 1st generation Prius (2001 - 2003).

I've also opted out on the HH. I've done a 5 year lifecycle spreadsheet model including as many factors as I could figure (differences in: realistic purchase cost, sales tax, 2004 tax incentive, excise tax, insurance, time value of money and resale), and at the current price levels it didn't make sense for me. However, if the selling price is reduced by $2K and there is a substantial tax credit next year of about $1,500 (guess), then it looks a bit different. A rough calculation shows that a 5 year, 60,000 mile breakeven would then be at a gas price of $3/gal (assuming 19 mpg for the gas only, and 25 mpg for the hybrid). I wasn't looking for a muscle car SUV, but wanted a good gas mileage people/gear mover.

Toyota Highlander Hybrid

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