Toyota Highlander Hybrid

bobw3 · August 2005

Bottom line is that for $25K there wasn't a Toyota that held 7 + luggage that wasn't a minivan, so I'll accept the slightly lesser quality (I'm sure you'll comment on that) if the car meets my needs. By the way the article said 30% of the American market, not Europe.

gazguzler · August 2005

Again, I'm not criticizing you, your car or your choice. I'm sure we've all made the right chioce for our own unique set of circumstances and needs. I'd be the last guy to say that your choice isn't right for you.

What I'm saying is I wish I could've bought an American car, too.

Not that I'm entirely happy with the HH. I've criticized it and Toyota for making a hybrid into a gasguzzler.

Your 100% right about the 30%. I'd only read the one sentance and not seen it was refereing to the US market, as you say. It seems to be less than half of that. My bad.

cdptrap · August 2005

We just got our HH to replace an aging van and supplement our Sienna.

The Sienna, despite best effort, returns at best 19 MPG in city driving. On the freeways, it can get close to 22 MPG. Mixed, it returns 21 MPG at best.

Our HH right off the bat gets 24 MPG in mixed driving the first 435 miles. It is now up to 26+ MPG after 800+ miles. From what I have read here, it can get better.

My wife loves the car but I was at first very apprehensive because it is so darn expensive. After driving it for a while now, it is a really good car and is growing on me.

The seats are really supportive laterally and in the lumbar region. Ride is silky smooth on paved roads. Engine accelerates effortlessly though we are older folks so speed is not of interest. We were able to fit 4 large adults (5-11 to 6-1) comfortably and 2 kids for a ride to the beach recently.

Overall, a very nice car. if Toyota quality holds up, it may yet worth every penny we sank in.

Good luck in your search.

sky_king · August 2005

mballew,

I've had my HH for exactly one week and I love it.
I bought the HH Ltd. with Nav and running boards, it's black with the ash gray leather interior. I got it for slightly below MSRP and I was able to get the dealership to throw in at no charge, the hood (bug/stone) deflector and sunroof air deflector. It was nice to look down at the odometer and only see 4 miles staring back at me.
My co-workers were very impressed with the fit, finish and and technology, as am I.
Yesterday, I even had a guy at a red light ask me, "Hybrid huh, how you like it ?"
Truthfully, I didn't buy it for its supposed great gas mileage alone, I also needed a bigger vehicle...traded in my 2002 Rav 4...which itself was an awesome car.
My only problem with this vehicle is that I find myself looking at the nav/display screen more than the road. I hope this lessens in time other wise I might find myself and my car in someones back seat...lol.

I will post some mileage results as time goes on.

gazguzler · August 2005

A reminder to please plug in your consumption at http://www.greenhybrid.com/compare/mileage/

Everyone here talks about what they're getting but it'd be more useful on a bar chart.

The 4wd's getting better mileage than the 2wd so far, which is wierd (wierder still because it also accelerates slightly faster, too). How can this be?

phoebeisis · August 2005

Great idea.The 2wd vs 4 wd is just a blip-once you get 100+ fillups recorded it will become what you expect.
The 2wd(just 7) are all very early(3 are 1st tanks,so the dealer might not have filled then) in the life of the vehicles.The 4wd-just 8-have more"older cars" ,so the owners might have learned a thing or 2.Further,the 2wd owners are probably in the hotter areas of the country-AC use-might be important.4wd tends to be a big deal in cooler areas-less AC use.Charlie PS The Escape #'s-fairly decent-probably give an indication of what a 4 cyl HH would have done(not quite as good as the 2wd Escape H-it is a lot lighter-500+lbs),but an idea anyway.

markrsmith83 · August 2005

I reluctantly agree.

Shoot, my cousin, and his wife actually BUILD the Ford Escape Hybrid. My uncle, their father, is an electrician in the same plant.

And I'm buying the HH, because Detroit failed to make an environmentally friendly SUV that is bigger than a rollerskate.

gazguzler · August 2005

For all my slagging of Ford, you're right, they did get the Escape right. They put it on a 4cyl and made it a real SUV for offroad.

Maybe Toyota's becoming more 'American' every day and Ford's finally getting it.

:-)

rspro · August 2005

Maybe accelerating faster gets the 4WD to a sweet spot faster. Although this should have shown up in the EPA tests.

As far as greenhybrid, I have one of the 1 tank 4WDs (Pro Hybrid), and I'm patiently waiting to get to my next fillup. It takes awhile when you only have a 25 mile comute round trip.

cdptrap · August 2005

Our experience shows that accelerating to 40-45MPH briskly (but safely) and then maintain 40-45 MPH seems to increase MPG to between 29-32 (according to on-board display) in the area that we drive.

The car gets up to 45 MPH very quickly and then easily maintains 45 MPH for long distance at significantly higher MPG reading. we have experience electric-only mode for up to 1.5 mile until the battery gets too low. We have abandoned the slow-rolling-start-from-stop approach because it relies on the ICE for longer distance and MPG figures seem to suffer.

For the past 400+ miles we have used this brisk-up-and-maintain technique and current almost end-of-current tank MPG is close to 26.5 MPG. Either the car is breaking in or our technique is having an effect. We are looking forward to a consistent 30 MPG or better at least for driving in our area.

boylan13 · August 2005

Hey, folks,

We've got a 2006 Highlander Hybrid Limited with about 1700 miles on it. Overall, we're very happy with it. MPG may not be quite as high as I'd hoped, but I'm a bit of a leadfoot and I really like the power. My only real complaint is the throbbing high decibel noise that happens when you open just the rear windows at highway speeds, but I understand this is a problem for all the Highlanders.

Anyway... my wife was driving this weekend, parked for a while in the city and when she tried to drive home, the steering was really rough and the P/S (power steering) light was lit. From driving it, it seems like the power steering is totally disabled -- the wheel is very hard to turn. I had the 1000-mile service last weekend and they checked all the fluid levels, so I thought perhaps they left the P/S fluid cap off. But the service manager told me it must be an electronic problem, not fluid level and suggested we bring it into the dealer ASAP.

I'm a little bummed to have such a serious problem on a month-old car. Has anyone else had this experience on the HH or the regular Highlander?

Thanks,

-Chris

phoebeisis · August 2005

The Escape Hybrid 2 and 4WD have nice numbers-maybe about what a 4 cyl HH would have done.I think a 4 cyl HH wouldn't have gotten quite these numbers since it would have been~400 lbs lighter,but Toyota usually builds "better" ICE motor than Ford,so maybe not.31 and 29 mpg 2 and 4wd are very decent-about 4 up on the HH.The HH numbers- 2 and 4 wd -will eventually "look" like the Escape numbers with the FWD have a 1-2 mpg advantage.
The Honda Accord Hybrid -29.5 mpg -isn't bad either-if you were looking for a mid sized car you could do a lot worse-I wish it was a station wagon..Charlie

falconone · August 2005

The throbbing noise is not unique to the Highlander. Many cars today exhibit that trait. I had a 96 Audi A4 that did the same thing. Another car I had also did that. Just open another window a crack to equalize the pressure.

explorerx4 · August 2005

i guess the real point is, there is no 4cyl HH, and there is a HFE, and it gets the numbers.

bdyment · August 2005

Discussion1 Did you get your moonroof to close properly as per my posting #1281?

discussion1 · August 2005

Bdyment,
Did not see that post until your reminder post here, thanks, just did it and it works now. Touch of button and it does its thing nicely.
THanks for the help.

discussion1 · August 2005

boylan/Chris,
Can you please let us know how your dealer resolved the steering problem?
We now have 2200 miles on ours and so far so good, knock on wood....

tomzpri · August 2005

Didn't the Edmunds HH test vehicle have this same problem with the power steering failing? Or was it a different magazine review of the HH I'm thinking of?

Any results from the dealer on your steering failure?

mmreid · August 2005

I saw a post about a thousand mile check-up and I'm confused because both the dealership in Nashville (where I bought the car) and the one here at home in Florida told me to not come back until I had either driven 5,000 miles or 6 months. I tend to put very few miles on a vehicle as I work at home (my commute is 12 feet to my studio) and that was part of the reason I was attracted to the hybrid technology - I do a lot of around town errand driving in a fairly small city. My HH now has just under 1600 miles and I wonder should I have taken it for a check-up? I brought it in to local dealership shortly after bringing it home from Nasvhille to get the cargo net installed (I really like them - had one in my prior vehicle and it keeps groceries etc. from scattering all over the place) and they said come back at 5,000 miles.

Second question: has anyone figured out the tax credit thing? The reason I'm asking is my husband is a bona fide tax attorney (second law degree in taxation on top of regular law degree) and he is quite willing to throw in his two cents as to what he thinks is going to be the tax credit. From the very little I've researched (and this was not the motive for buying the vehicle) we think it is $2,000 off of the tax you actually owe Uncle Sam and depending on your tax bracket, it shelters "x" amount of income - more than the credit itself. I saw a series of old posts about the tax credit but I can't tell if anybody has actually figured this one out. Once we do (you apparently need a special tax form for your 2005 taxes) I'm definitely willing to throw in his very educated opinion about what one can and cannot do . . .and share it with everyone here. Unless someone already knows for sure. I saw some references in old posts about needing a lawyer - well, I've got a very, very good one.

So as we approach tax time we are quite willing to share anything he finds out about the whole tax thing. I'm learning a lot from all of you and I'd like to say thank you by sharing what we find out as well.

mmreid

sunbyrne · August 2005

For 2005, it's simply a $2000 deduction (not a credit). If you already bought the HH, that's what you'll get to claim.

If you buy one in 2006, you'll get a credit, but nobody seems to know exactly how much that will be--put your husband on to figuring that one out!

upstateny5 · August 2005

My base model is due in Sept. I have test driven a limited (a little too rich for my budget) and wonder if the base model will have the screen display as well? Also, does the base model generally come with keyless entry and a security system?

mmreid · August 2005

There was an AP article in our Saturday paper about the plug-in technololgy folks in California are using to dramatically increase the mileage in their Prius cars. Anyone else see it and/or know anything about it? Right before I bought my HH my ex-husband, of all people, was telling me a lot of stuff was happening in California with increasing the mileage of hybrids by using this technology but that if you installed it, he said Toyota voided your warranty. It seems to be based on the idea that most people don't drive that far on a daily basis and this technology gives you the first 20 miles running a 50/50 mix of batteries and engine and this switches over to classic hybrid mode. The guy featured in the article was getting 80 mpg in his Prius and it said mileage of up to 250 mpg had been achieved! These cars do have to be plugged in overnight and the cost of adding the 18 brick sized batteries was $3,000.00 which included the guy doing the work himself to convert the Prius (something I definitely could not do myself and would have no clue as to who could even do that). No mention was made of any other kind of hybrid except the Prious being converted this way.

Has this been discussed before? I'm intrigued because I fit the profile of someone who puts very little mileage on a car - daily as well as annually. The only change in buying the HH is we will probably take it for road trips (instead of husband's car) as it's so comfortable and has the GPS system and heated seats for winter travel.

Tax benefits of buying a hybrid: I will ask husband to research the whole tax thing for hybrids next year and share it with this Forum. Right now he's intrigued with the tax benefits next year of buying energy efficient appliances and asked me to wait to replace aging dishwasher until January. He says it is the same as buying the Hybrid - you take the actual amount off of your taxes due.

Here is the link to the plug-in article:
http://www.tallahassee.com/mld/tallahassee/news/nation/12378456.htm

mmreid

phoebeisis · August 2005

mmreid,the problem we have figuring the tax credit is that someone-probably the EPA-has to give us some sort of average mpg for the midsized SUV's that the HH is "replacing".We also need an average for the HH.Why don't you have your husband use 20 mpg and 29 mpg and see what sort of numbers he gets?
There might be something I'm missing here,but I think that is currently what is holding us up.Thanks.Charlie

mmreid · August 2005

So far husband sent me this information for buying a hybrid in 2005:

On June 27, 2005, the IRS certified the 2006 Toyota Highlander Hybrid as a clean burning vehicle, which entitles the original purchaser of one (assuming a 2005 purchase), to a deduction (not a tax credit) of $2,000. The deduction reduces taxable income and a taxpayer does not have to itemize deductions to claim the deduction.

I just sent him Charlie's request to research about buying next year.

mmreid

otis1 · August 2005

mmreid, you may want to direct your husband to the "tax credits / incentives for hybrids" forum. There was some discussion there and I even included my attempt to calculate the HH 2006 tax credit ( otis1, "Tax credits / incentives for hybrids?" #74, 3 Aug 2005 11:13 pm )

The biggest problem I had was the definition of "inertia weight class" since this is what the current EPA city MPG rating is compared to (at least I think it is). you can see my feeble attempt to figure it out (post 74 if the link above doesn't work). also starting on post #59, there's a link to the bill (law?) with the pertinent section starting somewhere around p 1400. so far one other group has stated the 2006 tax credit for the HH is $2600.

sbgirl · August 2005

I have a base model with the option package and it doesn't have the large screen display. There is a smaller b/w display below the speedometer. There are multiple modes: outside temperature display, current mpg display, pictorial display of the engine, battery and a wheel with arrows depicting the flow of energy and odometer reading. It does come with keyless entry and if you mean security system where there needs to be a chip with the key in order to start the vehicle, yes there is.

discussion1 · August 2005

Upstateny5

I believe the base models do not have the screen even as an option. I had a long chat with our dealer when researching this car. At first, I did not want the Ltd model either, it is expensive, I thought lowly of the NAV, figured I had no use for the fancy energy flow display and thought the moonroof useless. Unfortunately, I lost my debate against my lovely wife

.

The NAV came in handy a few times on our long trips when we were in a strange city and had no local maps. It even picked up all but 1 country lanes we drove on. The energy display turned out useful because I would asking same questions others are asking about when does charging occurs and so on. With the display, we can see when the car is doing what. As for the moonroof, it is great at venting hot inside air even in hot desert heat.

I am not saying the Ltd is better, just that things I pegged as useless expensive bells and whistles at first have shown themselves to have real practical uses, it is a nice surprise.

upstateny5 · August 2005

Thank you - I thought that I had previously read that it didn't have the center display - in some respects it sounds like it might be a little less distracting to read the display on the speedometer area.

oldjayhawk · August 2005

mmreid: I am glad to find out that your hubby thought that it will be a tax saving of $2000. However, the issue is a big confusion because I have read an article on the web, via www.edmunds I think, which seems to suggest that it is only $2000 income deduction (so a tax saving of about $600 in the 30% tax bracket). I am waiting for clarifications from you or anyone who care to comment.
Thanks.
Oldjayhawk.

upstateny5 · August 2005

Thank you also - my car is coming with the first option package so I will be getting the moon roof and had not thought about using it for venting the interior hot air.

aec1 · August 2005

">link titleThis is from the IRS website: link title

Under the Working Families Tax Relief Act of 2004, the deduction amount is limited to $2,000 for cars first put into use in 2004 and 2005. the deduction will be limited to $500 for vehicles placed in service in 2006, and no deduction will be allowed after that year.

Certain Toyota and Honda models qualify for the deduction:

Toyota Prius  Model Years 2001 through 2005
Honda Insight  Model Years 2000 through 2005
Honda Civic Hybrid  Model Years 2003 and 2005
Honda Accord Hybrid  Model Year 2005
Ford Escape Hybrid  Model Year 2005

sbgirl · August 2005

I forgot that I had taken a pic of this area...so this will give you a better idea:
Pic of speedometer area

ibthegator · August 2005

My wife and I ordered her Highlander the other day and can't wait for it to come in.
It is loaded (company car).
4-6 week wait since the little mrs. has to be so specific.

mmreid · August 2005

my husband e-mailed back and this is his response about the tax situation next year:

The clean fuel efficient deduction is based on manufacturer certifications to the IRS. Toyota provided the certifications to the IRS on the new Highlander Hybrid, which qualified it for the maximum deduction of $2,000 for 2005, and $500 for 2006. No deduction after 2006.

Same as the post above. I will certify that spouse is definitely qualified to read through all that legalize and tax language. He revels in it. . .

mmreid

phoebeisis · August 2005

mmreid,I think the $2000 deduct is the "old" law.A couple of weeks ago a "new law" was passed that gave a new set of incentives for Hybrids.It is the one with the "big tax credits-" that are based on "weight-size classes" of vehicles and how well the Hybrid does-mpg wise-relative to the "class average" mpg.This is where I got the 20 mpg(class average for 4000 lbs SUV's) and 29 mpg-my bet on what the EPA will give as the HH MPG.Thanks, My figures are educated guesses based on EPA numbers-they will be close.Thanks.Charlie
PS He "revels' in tax law-makes my eyes roll back in my head!!Thanks.Charlie

mmreid · August 2005

I e-mailed hubby your response and I'll let you know what he says. He probably can't check it out until tomorrow. I think he has been checking out the new law because of my comment earlier about energy efficient appliances and his asking me wait to purchase anything new before 2006. If I posted mis-information, I apologize.

And yeah, he really likes all that tax stuff. Heck, I can't complain - it paid for the HH!

Ah - while I was doing this I got an e-mail back from him saying he thinks you are all referring to the new energy tax bill (which seems to mostly benefit the big energy and oil companies) and something about vehicles weighing over 8,000 lbs. but says he promises to research this more and get back to all of us on this topic. He did say it is not going to change anything for anyone who bought a car in 2005.

mmreid

sky_king · August 2005

I have the HH Ltd. and while driving today, I thought I'd open the sunroof to enjoy some fresh air. I used the sliding open option instead of the tilt open option.
When I went to close it, I wasn't sure it was closed tightly, as holding the button in the "close" position allowed the sunroof to tilt up after it had completed the sliding closed cycle.
So my question is, how do I know when it is properly closed ??
Thanks.

upstateny5 · August 2005

Thanks for the picture link - I would have hoped for a little more but guess that will have to wait for my second hybrid.

blov8r · August 2005

For 2005, it's simply a $2000 deduction (not a credit). If you already bought the HH, that's what you'll get to claim.

If you buy one in 2006, you'll get a credit, but nobody seems to know exactly how much that will be--put your husband on to figuring that one out!

I've been trying to sort through this as well, and my accountant can't find an answer. I do know the clean fuel deduction is just that --- a $2,000 deduction but no one seems to know what the "credit" will amount to --- it's only a week since the President signed the bill with the tax incentive for hybrids.

Any clarification(s) would be greatly appreciated. Bart :shades: :confuse:

cdptrap · August 2005

Sky_King,

An earlier poster suggested looking in the manual under "Moon roof". Read until the end of the instruction set where it says to "Normalize" the moonroof. This will normalize your roof and make it close correctly.

Another poster earlier said that when the moon roof is not closed correctly, road noise will come through the roof.

Ours must have been normalized by the dealer because it works from day 1.

Good luck

vs6xfx · August 2005

Toyota changed the way how the moonroof work from the 04 model onward. I had an 01 HL AWD and it offered one touch open > half close > complete close function. When I got the 04 HL AWD with NAV, Toyota said due to safety reason, they change this to Press to Open and Close but right after it close, it will cycle to Tile position function. Therefore, you need to do it by experience it.
When it goes to close, it will stop for a split second before it goes into Tile mode. You need to take you finger away from the button right at that moment before it goes into Tile mode and the sunroof is close properly.

slimsthc · August 2005

I'm a toyota salesman and it simply is as follows when you close the sunroof from the open position you will feel it moving forward when it stops it is closed then push again and it will tilt and vise versa hope this helps

skip1 · August 2005

I was told originally when I pick my HH up that You had to hold the switch to open or close it. I also had a hard time to know when it was closed So I re-read the book. right after it tells you how to use it, there is a reset or Normalization if it doesn't work in auto. It tells you to go through a reset using the tilt button on the moon roof. After you do this you can open it or close it with just a push of the button and not have to hold it and it close without any guess work.

discussion1 · August 2005

Yes, I had the same problem until I ran the normalization step as described in the manual. Thanks to a poster from Canada.

After normalization, operation is 1 touch only, no need to hold the button more than 1 touch.

1 touch to slide open,
1 touch to slide close,
1 touch to tilt open and
1 touch to tilt close.

sky_king · August 2005

My thanks to all who answered my question regarding the sunroof on my HH.
This sunroof technology seems to be a step back from what I had in my Rav 4.
However, I will try to "normalize" the sunroof and see how it goes.
Thanks again.

boylan13 · August 2005

I'll let you know what the dealer says about the power steering issue. I haven't brought it in yet for the P/S problem because the dealer where I purchased it is actually about an hour away. I tried to buy it at a couple of the New York City dealers, but they all wanted a premium over list. Prestige Toyota in Ramsey NJ sold it to me at MSRP. They have a few in stock now, by the way, in case anyone is interested. I had a good experience there overall.

So I'm planning to bring it into one of the NYC dealers for service but I filled out an online appt request on the Queensboro Toyota site yesterday and have yet to receive a reply.

BTW, does anyone have any GOOD experiences with New York City area Toyota dealers as far as service is concerned? Specifically Toyota of Manhattan or Queensboro Toyota?

Thanks,

-Chris

boylan13 · August 2005

1000-mile "check-up" was recommended by my dealer (Prestige Toyota in Ramsey, NJ) - it's a complimentary thing where they just check the basics like fluid levels. It didn't take more than 20 minutes. I don't think there was much involved. The first "scheduled" maintenance is at 5,000 miles.

gazguzler · August 2005

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8975473/
I guess this ends the debate about when we'll earn money back. It's never because of depreciation and insurance. The video shows the beloved HH.

gordonr · August 2005

Do Hybrid's depreciate faster? A couple of months ago I looked at data on Edmunds.com regarding the depreciation of the first generation 2001 Prius vs a similar Camry or Corolla with the same age, mileage and condition. If I remember correctly, the 2001 Prius had a higher TMV as a percentage of original MSRP than the other cars. I'm not sure data supports the depreciation arguement. I do wonder if the market will eventually discount the value of hybrids once the actual useful life of the batteries is known based on older vehicles histories.

mmreid · August 2005

I don't know why anyone else bought a HH but my considerations were not re-sale, depreciation or anything else. I did, however, buy an extended warranty for the car which they offered for what seemed to us to be a very good deal - $890 for a 7 year extended Toyota warranty (yes, I know the hybrid engine is on a 8 year one).

I bought the car because it seemed to be (a) wave of the future - the hybrid technology (b) better mileage than my Acura and no need for super premium gas (c) better visibility in a taller vehicle and (d) environmental considerations We didn't even find out about the tax deduction until we had already decided to purchase it.

I definitely approached the purchase of this vehicle totally differently than I've ever done before. I personally did not even consider the Lexus hybrid since there is no Lexus dealer in town and I want a local dealer in case I need one. Other Lexus owners here have to literally get their cars towed to Jacksonville, FL if someone major goes wrong.
If I'd been taller, I'd probably be driving a Prius right now. But I'm very happy with my HH and I'm not worrying about how much money I'll get for it at some time in the future. Heck - I've only had the car about 8 weeks - it's like I'm still on my honeymoon and it's no time to be thinking about getting a divorce. . .

mmreid

Toyota Highlander Hybrid

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