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Toyota Highlander Hybrid

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Comments

  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H Administrator Posts: 11,146
    A financial magazine reporter aims to interview someone who has purchased a hybrid and would like to discuss why you chose buying a hybrid and if you're happy with your vehicle. Please respond to ctalati@edmunds.com before Wednesday, March 15 at 5 PM EST with your daytime/weekend contact info.

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  • worsthhdriverworsthhdriver Member Posts: 6
    :mad: Your "facts" are very, very misleading. By not qualifying your statement you are essentially lying.

    I have a HH and, yes, I get FE values in the 30s...but only after I've been driving for at least 20 minutes and the weather is good and I don't stop for more than 30 seconds at a time and when my commute is down hill both ways...blah blah blah.

    So your estimates are a bunch of crap. By saying what you're saying, you're ignoring the fact that we HAVE TO waste a ton of fuel driving those first 20 minutes before you get to those numbers. And the weather is not always going to be good and sometimes you have to stop.

    EPA estimates are never "real world" but the estimates on the HH are totally misleading and your post only reinforces the lie. EPA estimating methods were developed years ago for ICE vehicles. I'm guessing they have not changed them for estimating hybrid vehicle performance. After the first couple of class-actions get settled, it'll become public that the Toyota's of the world knew what they were doing and specifically designed their vehicles to perform well on the test without regard to real-world results.

    The only person who's going to get mileage that even resembles your numbers is the guy who commutes in stop & go highway traffic for more than an hour each way. So, if you live in Barrington and work in Chicago, this is the car for you. Otherwise, don't believe what the dealer (or what kdhspyder) tells you.
  • PF_FlyerPF_Flyer Member Posts: 9,372
    You're going to run into things that are posted that you may not agree with from time to time around here. It's OK to disagree, but please avoid making this a perosnal dispute.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    Fact: ;) There cant be any class action suits. You can't sue the Govt about EPA numbers.

    Fact: ;) Short trips kill FE for everyone, hybrid or ICE.

    Fact: ;) The most important input to achieving better fuel economy is... the driver. The best will do better than the worst.

    Fact: ;) Cold weather, wind, rain, snow is bad for all vehicles' FE.

    Fact: ;) I can get 25-27 Hwy or 30+ City in your HH.... given EPA test criteria... but you knew that already.

    Fact: YMMV
  • cdptrapcdptrap Member Posts: 485
    Hopefully, the Vue gets 30, 32, 35 and people start buying. That will be fantastic.
    The Vue and the HH are not quite in the same class.

    The Vue is a lower-tech, small engine (4 cyl?) car meant for saving gas. The HH is a hi-tech higher end Toyota statement car. The Vue says buy me, I get great mileage and I am cheaper than the other hybrid SUV's. The HH is saying look at me, besides all the near-Lexus like comfort and advance safety software, I also give you near-V8 power but not the 15-MPG V8 mileage. That difference also accounts for the price difference.

    For people who care only about gas mileage, Vue and Escape are good choices. For people who want more, the HH creeps into the picture.

    It probably surprised GM that the HH did better than the Vue in their own test but the right marketing approach can take care of that.

    I am waiting for GM to create a Tahoe that gets 30-MPG or a hunky Silverado that can tow 5-tons (hay, horse trailers, tractors) and is rated SULEV or better and still gets 25-mpg :). Now that will be something to behold on our ranch.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    There's one fact you omitted in your rant about the HH. How it compares to an ICE Highlander under the same 'normal' conditions.

    My wife drives our V6 ICE Highlander 15 mi each way to work every day, mostly at ~ 50 mph. For the first 10 min of the drive she normally gets about 14-15 mpg. By the time she's there FE might reach 20 mpg. Then the vehicle sits for 8-10 hours and it's repeated in reverse.

    The HH in the worst cases reported gets about 50% better FE than ours. It's just life and the weather and the particular circumstances of our driving. If she drove a HH then she'd cut her gas bill by 1/3.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    If she drove a HH then she'd cut her gas bill by 1/3.

    I take it you feel she can get 30 MPG combined with the HH. If she can she will win the prize on GH. The top driver of the 77 owners of both the FWD & AWD is getting 29.9 MPG. If you said she would get a 25% improvement over the non-hybrid Highlander you would be in the middle of the pack. So you gain 5 MPG and the difference today between the Limited HH AWD and the Limited Highlander top of the line with 3 rows of seats is $9000. If she drives 20k miles a year she will save about $500 per year in gas. I guess you are right. Don't buy a hybrid thinking you will save any money.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    Not exactly..

    She's getting about 16 mpg combined.. at 23-24 which is on the low side of most reported experiences.

    At 16 mpg she's using about 62-63 gal/1000 mi driven
    At 24 mpg she'd be using abt 42-43 gal/1000 mi driven

    She'd save 1/3 the gas she's using now.

    Although she wants an FJ Cruiser I think she should wait until next year when, hopefully, the new HH is based on the 2.4L + HSD. It'll be less expensive and better on FE.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Not exactly..

    I thought your wife was getting 20 MPG. That is still under the EPA for the V6. If she is that much of a lead foot she may be lucky to break 20 MPG with the HH. But then like you say. If you like it, buy it. I have no legitimate argument with that thinking. Exactly what I do.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    It's the short trip/winter weather double whammy problem.

    All vehicles need about 7-10 min to warm up everything, engine, cabin, catalytic converter and suddenly 5 min later everything is shut down for another 8-10 hours. It's in the last 5 min segment that she might get 20 mpg from the vehicle. It's the same with every vehicle though.

    The 4WD V6 ICE's on such short trips in winter may be getting 16-18 mpg typically on an overall average. This is the baseline for comparing the HH. A 30-50% improvement in FE is what one should expect.
  • discussion1discussion1 Member Posts: 103
    KhdSpyder,

    Can you pass word along to Toyota about "Training Courses"?

    A local Toyota dealership has been holding training classes and inviting Toyota rep to come and answer questions about the HH and its driving capabilities. It is very popular, I was "locked out" twice due to full reg.

    This would be quite helpful for a lot of newer owners. Just a thought.

    All the talk about the car's behavior has been informative and very interesting, almost like flying. Some pilots just learn the basics, fly the straight and level. Some pilots learn all they can and fly their birds like bats from ****. Some planes can do little but to fly straight and level, some planes offer so much, they are a dream to fly. The HH sort of, kind of, fits in the latter and it is fun for someone who likes flying, uuhh... driving :).

    I can throttle back and loiter in the clouds softly and quietly so to speak, or throttle up to full military power (so to speak) and VVOOOOOOOMMM, it is ready to close, or I can "engage" a tough road in tight quarte combat, uuhhh driving :).

    We bought this car for green reasons but we have also learnt of its capability. It may not be as nimble as a BMW but it ain't no slouch. All the talk about saving gas is very good but I hope owners do not forget to enjoy the car.

    I hope owners will stop thinking of this car just as a gas-saving pile of metal. The $40K we spent is not for nothing, this car matches the BMW X3 very well, drive it, enjoy it, have fun, live a little, and have fun learning how to save some gas in the process.

    Off we go, into the wild blue yonder ...uuh.. onto the black top :).
  • mmreidmmreid Member Posts: 88
    I found my paperwork and it was $890 for 75,000 miles or 7 years. Purchased at time of sale.

    Also, have not heard back from Consumer Reports. May have to resort to snail mail. . .

    I also said a while back I'd let everyone know more about tax stuff for hybrid deduction. We should be doing our taxes (husband is tax attorney) about now. We bought our HH in June of 2005 so get the deduction this year. Take note that this year, if you purchase a high energy efficient appliance you get a deduction for next year's taxes. Not as lovely as the hybrid deduction.

    mmreid
  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    The RX400h & HH use DBW(e-throttle), BBW, Brake By Wire, and EPS, Electric Power Stearing.

    The EPS via "cooperative control", is integrated with VSC and will therefore actively RESIST turning the stearing wheel in a direction that would lead to exacerbating a VSC activation circumstance. EPS will also actually RESIST turning the stearing wheel at all during hard acceleration.

    I would whole-heartedly recommend that anyone considering an RX400h or HH purchase subscribe to [url=http://techinfo.toyota.com]http://techinfo.toyota.com[/url] and read up on the VDIM sections thoroughly
  • cdptrapcdptrap Member Posts: 485
    Thanks for the pointer, fun read for tonight.
  • cdptrapcdptrap Member Posts: 485
    Had a few moments over lunch to check this out. We still have our 1 year subscritio active. For readers who are unfamiliar with this site:

    1. Requires a fee to access. 1 month is $50, 1 year is $350.

    2. Has all details about car maintenance, service, body and so on.

    3. VDIM info is in the following area:

    New Car Features (left frame check box) ->
    Chasis and Drivetrain (drop down list item) ->
    Brake Control System General & VDIM (FIND results table)

    VDIM is tied into the Brake Control System and steering and so on as WWEST mentioned. Fun read.
  • bob2006bob2006 Member Posts: 6
    Hi Mmreid,

    Thaks for the warrenty info. Still have not decided to look into adding an extended warranty. So that adds 4 years or 34K to the basic 3/36 coverage. Wonder if that includes the NAV?

    I am looking foward to I hope around a $2600 tax credit for 2006. I heard it changed from just a deduction to a credit. My wife is averaging 26mpg. (Computer calculated). She drives back and forth to work 20 miles FW and 6 miles non freeway.

    We used the NAV to find Taco Bell the other day. Pretty cool..... :shades:

    Bob
  • bob2006bob2006 Member Posts: 6
    Wow, $350.00 per year. Do we really need to know all that stuff? Can we share subscriptions?

    bob
  • mmreidmmreid Member Posts: 88
    I got the usual form sort of response from CR. Basically it's being forwarded to appropriate people. Feel like I'm dealing with the government instead of CR. I can post reponse but it doesn't say much. Sort of "thank you for commenting" sort of thing. Useless. Anyway, I'll wait a few days and see if I hear from a car person and if not, snail mail letter to editor will follow (I've done 'em to our local paper and national magazines and I have no problem responding to them).

    Side note: my understanding was the extended warranty included everything and I assume my NAV system was part of that too. I have a Limited HH, I think I've got everything on it but the dvd thing. Grown kids and as I've said before, the dog doesn't need movies in the rear seat. We've never used the third row of seats but I think we are about to next week when grandkids are coming for spring break and we'll have a car full of kids and adults! The kids are small so that third row should work just dandy.

    mmreid
  • cdptrapcdptrap Member Posts: 485
    Bob2006,

    If you find the following summary insufficient, then it will be worthwhile to read it yourself at the site. I cannot post the material here or anywhere else because it will violate copyrights.

    Basically, the VDIM is a brake management system that brings together the Electrically Controlled Steering, the Electronic Brake System (EBS), the TRAC (Traction Control), the VSC (Stability Control) and the Slip Control system. This in turn ties into the Toyota Hybrid System (THS) which manages regenerative braking and power output.

    The manual claims that conventional VSC and TRAC work independently and only when the car has already begun to lose control. In contrast, the manual claims that the VDIM works the HH systems together "seamlessly" to anticipate loss of control and correct that before it happens. It will boost or reduce steering ability, lower power output and apply brakes to appropriate wheels in order to maintain stability and control.

    Any sudden surge in power coupled with a sudden change in steering angle means the car may slip and slide so the VDIM will kick in to apply appropriate brakes, lower engine output and limit steering angle, all for maintaining stability and preventing slip and slide. This clearly explains what my wife and I encountered twice on the freeways. We were attempting a quick lane change each time and the HH won't respond. It scared my wife both times.

    If there is sudden braking and a sudden change in steering angle such as an emergency avoidance maneuver, the VDIM will kick in to maintain stability through the maneuver and help slow or stop the car depending on driver's actions.

    So do not bother trying to punch it and turn at the same time, or to turn suddenly at high speed. The whole system is geared for normal driving and emergency maneuvers. It is not geared for aggressive driving. It can get downright dangerous trying to be aggressive in this car. It is not a BMW in this regard.

    In a nutshell, the HH is designed for *smooth* operation with the VDIM constantly watching over our shoulders. If we accelerate smoothly and turn smoothly within safe limits, everything works fine. Get aggressive and BIG BROTHER shuts us down.
  • 8241582415 Member Posts: 38
    I also experienced a "non-response" from trying to steering the HiHy agressively around a curve at high speed. It also scared the heck out of me while trying to remain outwardly calm to avoid panicking my wife :sick: .

    Thanks for the post because it all makes sense now. But the HiHy did make it around the curve alright. So my question is did the VDIM do its job well (did it know better?) or is this a dangereous situation that we should escalate to Toyota?
  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    One correction, if I may....

    The EPS, electric power stearing, doesn't actually "limit" the stearing angle. What it does do is limit the level of power assist it will provide.

    For instance if you are turning right and the vehicle begins to "plow", understear, the system will make it more difficult to increase the stearing angle to the right. It will actually assist your effort if you attempt to lessen the stearing angle, counterstear back to the left to help recover from the understearing situation.
  • cdptrapcdptrap Member Posts: 485
    Thanks WWest for the important correction.

    ... did the VDIM do its job well (did it know better?) or is this a dangereous situation that we should escalate to Toyota?

    Excellent question, unsuspecting drivers may get into trouble.

    From your experience and ours, it seems the VDIM kicks in whenever high speed directional change is happening. This makes sense.

    We have had no other problems on curvy freeways (CA 129, 152, 17) as long as our speed was smooth through the curves. We normally maintain speed or slow while entering and then maintain again or accelerate as necessary out of the curve. The HH is solid in these maneuvers. It actually can take some curves at posted speed while our trucks and vans cannot.

    We also did two emergency maneuvers, one at 60 mph, one at 10 mph, both involved swerving and braking hard. In the high speed one, I had to change lane sharply and brake to pass a 3-car fender-bender (they were racing) occuring right in front of us. The HH worked fine in both cases.

    I will send Toyota a feedback to request at least an advisory to owners. May you can too so that Toyota knows it is not just a lone voice in the wild.
  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    In reading the various posts and reports here and about on the internet it appears to me that the greatest danger is likely to arise when both the driver and the system attempt to make corrective measures simultaneously.

    I have no doubt that in most cases these systems are so very much more sensitive to the situations that require corrective measures that even experienced drivers might not notice the event until the danger has passed.

    But there have been, and will continue to be, instances wherein the driver interacts with the situation along with the system. Sometimes that occurs because the driver intentionally puts the vehicle in the circumstance ("drifting" comes immediately to mind) and therefore is fully prepared and QUICK to react with corrective measures.

    That's why the Porsche PSM system delays making any corrective action for a few hundred milliseconds. I guess Porsche drivers are expected to know how to quickly react and apply corrective meaures in these cases.

    I guess the bottom line is that the manufacturers are designing these systems for the public at large, those with no or little experience with handling at the extreme, and the rest of use will be forced to just go along for the ride.

    Or we could all just disconnect the yaw sensor and be done with it.
  • discussion1discussion1 Member Posts: 103
    Great discussion. Spent $50 for a 1-month subscription to the TechInfo site, great material.

    I have also experienced VDIM induced "impaired response" a few times but nothing dangerous.

    Our HH has encountered many curves but either the VDIM never intervened or it did without our knowledge. The car is solid and secure through curves and a joy to drive. THis is not what we would normally expect from a Toyota.

    The VDIM is perfect for speeders and drivers who drive beyond their abilities. The system makes it difficult to endanger the car and others on the road. For the rest of us, it will do well in emergency maneuvers and poor road conditions.

    No automated system is perfect but Toyota seems to have the right approach. VDIM manages every safety system in the car using straightforward factors to ensure the car does not skid or flip. There are no fancy intelligence built in to acticipate every real world condition. This is the best aproach. Just do the basics really well and let the driver do the rest.

    Extrapolating on Wwest's point, I hope there is no situation where the VDIM cancels out a driver's desperate but correct maneuvers. If that were to happen, it will be tragic.

    Other manufacturers like to focus on the engine design and power. They speak little of brakes, steering and the systems are disjoint and operate more or less independently. The HH has much more than just the engine. There is a good deal of sophistication under this drive-by-wire car. All the major pieces are integrated so they coordiinate with each other via the VDIM and work together. Hydraulics provide feedback while electronics runs everything, from brakes to steering to power. The manual also speaks of failsafe and backup so system failures give drivers direct control. It is a piece of impressive engineering. I am glad to have read the material, it shows where the $40K went.

    I do not work for Toyota :), just really impressed and pleasantly surprised by this machine.
  • 8241582415 Member Posts: 38
    I have been noticing this low level vibration :( for some time and even posted here earlier with few responses. I thought I was only one of the few but there have been more posts in the RX 400h forum that describe similar observations:

    http://us.lexusownersclub.com/forums/lofiversion/index.php/t28250.html

    If any other HiHy owners are experiencing the same thing please add your input and perhaps we even should escalate to Toyota dealers/Corporate to get the same fix as the RX 400h.
  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    "...VDIM cancels out....."

    No, No, NO....

    My point was that if the driver happens to make the correct "moves", say counterstearing into a skid, at exactly the same time the VSC is using the outside front brake as a corrective/recovery measure the result might well be overcorrection and thereby loss of control.

    The VDIM system is impressive, very, but I can't help thinking about the hundreds of thousands of lines of code and the probability of bugs therein.
  • discussion1discussion1 Member Posts: 103
    Sorry Wwest, was not putting words in your mouth. I was actually thinking of a real scenario.

    To avoid periodic rock falls on mountain roads, it sometimes requires a quick lane change into opposing lane to avoid the hazard, accelerate just enough to pass and a quick turn into my own lane. This maneuver sometimes has no braking involved. It is a quick turn of the steering at current speed with mild acceleration and a quick turn back into lane. What will the VDIM do? Will it slow my lane changing maneuver enough so that I sideswipe or plow into the hazard? and if passing the hazard is successful, will the VDIM impair our HH's ability to return to our lane?

    If the VDIM activates only when it senses imminent danger then it is correct. Better to have me sideswipe or plow into the hazard than to flip, roll over and really flying into the hazard and oncoming traffic.

    If the VDIM activates because it thinks there is a danger, then it may be interfering with a legitimate maneuver. It may or may not be helping me then.

    No automated system can possibly help us in all real world situations, I am just hoping it does not interfere when unnecessary. Toyota engineers probably thought of this already so I may just be a bit paranoid.
  • discussion1discussion1 Member Posts: 103
    hi 82415,

    Can you elaborate on the "vibration"? I read some of the posts by Lexus owners but none are very specific about that this vibration is. Is it constant? Where can you feel it (steering, footwell, seat, etc)? Is there a noise associated with it? when accelerating?

    We have not really experienced any vibration that shakes the car or steering or seat. We have experienced mild vibration in the foot well in very specific situation.

    When we accelerate gently from 30 to speed at or below 45 on flat or slight uphill, there are times when the car makes an interesting droning noise. It is not unpleasant, does not alarm us, car seems to behave just fine, but the noise will run on for may be 10 seconds until we hit higher speed. The mild vibration starts and stops with that sound. It is so mild, we never thought anything of it.

    Does that match with your experience?
  • 8241582415 Member Posts: 38
    What I experienced was a low rumbling vibration not unlike the old muscle V8 but more so. I felt it in the steering, footwell, centre console (where my right knee was leaning against it). There was no unusual noise associated with the vibration at any time. First, I thought it was the tires out of balance but the dealer re-balanced them and the vibration persisted. It was most prominent when I tried to hold the vehicle speed at 35- 40 mph and both the ICE and motors are working. Some other times, it was also bad when I sped up to merge into interstate traffic and crossed the range of speed described.

    I will have the dealer look at it again at the first oil change and ask them if Toyota has any tech bulletin on the problem. The problem is repeatable so they should be able to follow up on it.
  • discussion1discussion1 Member Posts: 103
    OK, I am sure you and I are talking about the same thing.

    We also get a whiff of the sound and vibration during acceleration to merge. In our case, because we are used to hearing it at lower speed, we are able to discern the same noise during hard acceleration but much much softer. The vibration we do feel is extremely slight. It is enough to feel and enough to tell us it is coming from the engine but very mild, barely noticeable.

    Please let us know what your dealer finds.
  • downthehighwaydownthehighway Member Posts: 19
    Hey, Bob2006-

    Here's what a website called carbuyingdiscounts.com/insiderinfo (which has a lot of good stuff on it) has to say re extended warranties:

    "A dealer makes money when he sells you an extended warrantee at an increased retail price. But, you can easily buy one wholesale for much less. Receive instant online quotes before you go into the dealership.

    "Do you need an extended warrantee? That depends. How long do you plan to keep your car? Most manufacturers' standard warrantees last for three years. If you plan to keep your car longer than that, buying an extended warrantee now will likely increase the car's resale value later.

    "(Our advice: Price out extended warrantees without the dealer's involvement by receiving an online quote. Plus, find out why it makes sense to buy an extended warrantee now (as opposed to later). Get two quotes: one on the auto you intend to buy now (this year's model), and one on a three-year-old model with, say, 40,000 miles on it. You will discover that is it substantially cheaper to invest in the extended warrantee today instead of three years from now, even though the vehicle will be covered for more years.)"

    Bob: my dealer told me I could get an EW from them any time before the standard 3/36 warrantee is up.

    Somewhere, in print or on the radio, I recently ran across an ad for some outfit who specializes in insurance for hybrids. Dunno how good or worthwhile they are.

    Success to you, Bob. Obviously, I'm thinking of doing it myself, and this is as far as I've gotten. If you do track down some alternative providers of EWs, could you please let me know what they are. Thanks.

    Onward & Upward,
    Downthehighway
  • worsthhdriverworsthhdriver Member Posts: 6
    You say that you can get 30+ mpg in my HH...GIVEN EPA TEST CRITERIA. That's my point. See, the EPA test criteria don't exist in the real world. And, while ICE cars and Hybrids are subject to the same test criteria, the difference between the make-believe EPA test world and the real world has a much, much greater impact on hybrids. In my experience, when my ICE car's EPA number says 30 mpg, I expect to get 27 in the real world. However, that same 30 number on an HH means you'll be lucky to get 20-21 in the real world. Big difference! And a lot of people are in for the same shock and disappointment that I experienced (I'm getting a whopping 19.4 mpg).

    Because, you see, I can get 82-83 mpg in my HH...given SDA test criteria. What are SDA test criteria you ask? That's when I start my HH and push it around town with my Hummer.

    So, again, I say that when you post numbers like you do, you are clearly misleading people.

    Oh, one more fact: YMMVDMSTM
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    Well you are just wrong, sorry. For 20+ years I commuted in and out of NYC ( 60 mi RT ) at about 20-30 mph. This is 15000 mpy at EPA conditions.

    I will repeat, I can take your HH and get EPA values if the conditions are the same as the EPA test. I've done 65 mpg+ for 50 mi in my Prius with some values in the 75-90 mpg range. I've driven HH's with a semi-leadfoot at an avg 63 mph and obtained 26 mpg.

    If you are only getting 20-21 mpg then
    a. you arent making the effort to use the best features of the HSD system;
    b. your specific conditions, winter + short trips + constant acceleration, don't allow you to take advantage of the HSD;
    c. you have another agenda ;) .

    Sorry, that you are disappointed in you HH. It seems that probably your Bettle is a better choice for your driving scenario. BTW, where does your Hummer fit? Garage or outside?
  • cdptrapcdptrap Member Posts: 485
    19 mpg is not good, there may be something wrong with the car.

    I hope owners who are getting poor mileage will continue to post experiences here. It helps the rest of us see the other side of the coin and may be anticipate potential problems. Pesonally, I do feel bad your mileage is so low, I wish there is some other way to help it get better.

    There is a recent Toyota bulletin telling shops to reset and iniatialize the "ICS" (Idle Controller???) on the HH. The symptoms were that people were getting poor mileage; down around 20-21.

    Those of us who are seeing good mileage, all we can do is continuing to share our experiences when appropriate and ask questions. Hopefully everyone can find something good to use from these posts.
  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    Why does nobody understand or listen...?

    The RX400h and the HH are both tuned for performance, NOT FE. And because of some anomalies in the design vs the Prius that will actually get better Highway FE than the EPA estimates and dramatically lower FE than EPA estimates for city stop and go driving.

    In order for the catalytic converter in the Rxh and HH to be reasonably efficient at doing the job it is desgned to do it MUST be kept up to an operating temperature of at least 800F or above. If you want cabin heat in the wintertime or A/C in the summer that will add to the duty-cycle of the periods the ICE must be run.

    Given the above constraints the ICE in the RXh & HH cannot be shut down as long nor nearly as often as the Prius.

    Since the ICE must be run anyway on the highway for cruising then the FE will be quite good in comparison.

    The Prius A/C can be metered, set to run in economy mode, but for the RXh and HH the A/C always run "full-out", operating the evaporator temperature as close to freezing as operationally possible. That results in the need for HOT WATER flowing through the heating section in order to moderate the overall system airflow level to within the human comfort zone.

    The Prius also has a unique catalyst system wherein the ICE need not run as often to keep the catalyst HOT.

    And keep this in mind...!

    As an overall commuter vehicle, size, weight, capacity, etc, the Prius is outstanding. You cannot say the same of the RXh or HH. So the compromise the design engineers made, reasonable city FE vs stellar highway FE, was probably quite reasonable and well thought out.
  • jbolltjbollt Member Posts: 736
    WWEST said (The HH and RX400)...will actually get better Highway FE than the EPA estimates and dramatically lower FE than EPA estimates for city stop and go driving.

    YOUR Opinion....which you are entitled to. My brother has a 2006 HH, and commutes 20 mile in city driving, and gets 33mpg.....

    WWEST....You frequently voice your opinion as fact........

    stearing....... sheesh...
  • cdptrapcdptrap Member Posts: 485
    ...dramatically lower FE than EPA estimates for city stop and go driving.

    This actually is not what we are seeing. If I can avoid freeway driving, I can get in the range of 31-33 mpg. Have not tried this for a full tank but did have to drive all-city once for half a tank ending up with 31-mpg during a fill-up. This is mostly (90%?) done at or below posted speed. Brisk acceleration to P&G mode, not a slow acceleration that sucks gas.

    I claim it possible to reach 33-mpg because some stretches of roads actually supports all-electric but posted speed is 45-mph and traffic often will not let me run below speed limit. At 45-mph, there is little chance of running on electric.

    It is no slouch on freeway mileage but the ICE has to burn too often on freeways keeping speed at 65-70. It is most efficient at 55-MPH. When I drive 55-mph on a back country highway, I can get EPA numbers for freeway.
  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    Sorry to be nit-picking....

    Hell, no I'm NOT!

    In that twenty miles of "city driving" your brother does, how many stop signs and traffic lights does he transit?

    Here in the "city" of Seattle that stretches from Olympia to the south, MM-104, to Everett to the North, MM-165, I can drive 61 miles of "city" driving and never encounter a traffic light. ~22MPG on my 2001 AWD RX300 for "city driving".

    If you want to determine your true mileage for the RXh or HH then you have no choice other than average it over several tanks of gas. Unless you're somehow capable of figuring out how many miles of travel are stored in the batteries when you fill up vs when the tank is again empty. Of course that requires being able to define empty closer than the guage or computer can.

    The only "true" measure of fuel consumption is via averaging from that meter on the pump over at least 5 refills.

    If I wished I could truthfully tell you that using your pulse and glide technique I often see 99.99MPG on the computer calculation for a fair distance.

    The FE numbers I have used for the HH and RXh come from posts throughout the various internet forums wherein it is reasonably clear the drivers knew how to compute actual or real FE.
  • acottrillacottrill Member Posts: 2
    Anyone know the invoice price for the HH Limited? We live in Houston, TX and are curious what we should aim for in the price category. Can we expect to pay $4000 below MSRP?
  • discussion1discussion1 Member Posts: 103
    Not sure about Houston but in southern CA, larger dealerships were offering about $4K off MSRP for Limited 2WD and selected 4WD Models. I noticed the 4WD ones were of specifc color type, may be no one likes that color. The other 4WD models were only $2K off MSRP. In northern CA, a few local dealerships are asking $8K over MSRP for 4WD with NAV and rear DVD, outrageously wild pricing. A friend flew down to LA to get his.

    Houston is just a short hop away from LA. I have fond memory of Houston having spent time at Johnson's.
  • discussion1discussion1 Member Posts: 103
    How many miles do you have on the HH?

    Check on the "ISC Learning" Bulletin, that may be the reason.

    19 mpg sounds too low to be reasonable if you are not heavy footed like me. If you are, 19 is possible but you have to be really really flooring it almost everywhere. If you do not drive that way, then best have the car checked by a dealership that is interested in listening to you. Don't go back to the one that ignored your concern.

    We got 22-24 right off the bat when we first got it new. That is before we know anything about all the hypermiling techniques. The worst Winter mileage we got was 24 with heat blasting and seat-heater pumping. So 19 is strangely low.
  • acottrillacottrill Member Posts: 2
    Thanks for the info. We actually live in Clear Lake. My husband works for Boeing on an ISS contract. We want to get rid of suburban for a HH. A couple of dealers here have said they won't drop below the MSRP, but 2 have said that would. Hopefully we can get a good deal. Thanks again!
  • jbolltjbollt Member Posts: 736
    In that twenty miles of "city driving" your brother does, how many stop signs and traffic lights does he transit?

    It's actually 22 miles, and he has 12-14 traffic lights/stops signs that he stops at during that commute. Highest speed reached during his commute is 40-45 mph. With that many stops, average of a little over 1.5 miles between stops. He continues to average over 33mpg. In fact, as of this evening, he is at 33.6mpg, and 250 miles on this tank. Quite impressive I must say. He has somewhere in the neighborhood of 11,000 miles on the vehicle.

    Oh..in the desert southwest, so cold and snow are not an issue, (either is rain, this year!) but this is with "winter gas"
  • discussion1discussion1 Member Posts: 103
    HOOOOYAA YAAA!!! Your brother has the absolute best set-up for this car.
    1.5 mile between stops, 22 miles, speed limit of 40-45. No rain, no snow, may be a little wind but absolute ideal condition. I am so envious, I am salivating :).

    No wonder he is getting 33+ MPG! Holy Mackerel, he does not have to do much at all. If he were to hypermile it just a bit, I can see him geting 36 or a whopping 38??
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    This is the near perfect emulation of the EPA City test criteria.
  • cdptrapcdptrap Member Posts: 485
    Wow, absolutely ideal condition for this car. As khdspyder said, almost mirroring the EPA test condition. Your brother's car should be the "Control" for all other HH. I honestly wonder if there is a V6 or V8 in existence today, with similar weight and performance parameters, that can get 33 mpg in the same driving condition?

    This really goes to show how local condition can impact gas mileage. While all cars are sensitive to such factors, Toyota's current gen of gas-electric seems much more. For some owners, this is great for it yields hi-power performance and reasonable gas-sipping all in one. For other owners, it becomes a burden because of misinformation, misunderstanding and false expectations.

    Toyota needs to educate the public and especially prospective owners about the wide range of sensitivities. They are actually the strength of the HSD technology in the HH. Drive it one way, one trades gas consumption for oomph and zip. Drive it another way, one trades zip-zip for a competition between car and driver to see who can do better at increasing gas mileage. Drive it yet another way, one can balance zip with good gas mileage.

    I can attest to the third point. Counting total gain in elevation, our place has a gain of about 200 ft. For the past 9 months, we have been looking for the best way to drive up this grade without losing too much MPG. We went from losing 2.5-MPG each climb to 1-MPG to 0.5-mpg to about 0.2-MPG today just by modifying how we drive up the grade.

    I can begin to appreciate the term, "driver's car".
  • katzjamrkatzjamr Member Posts: 146
    seattle is also hilly and can you share your technique for the best mpg up the grade. i also agree toyota needs to do a better job in encouraging and demonstrating hybrid driving skills from the day of purchase. i think this is especially critical with the more mainstream camry hybrid rollout.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    Thanks to a posting elsewhere this great article was discoverd from the last issue of C&D

    http://www.caranddriver.com/article.asp?section_id=27&article_id=10499

    The influence of speed is dramatic as you can see.
  • jeff57jeff57 Member Posts: 1
    Why should the consumer who wants to make a smart ecological choice for a vehicle, have to baby the vehicle, like the suggestions I read for the Highlander Hybrid, to receive the gas mileage Toyota so widely promotes? I don't think Toyota gets it. They should have combined a 4 cylinder engine with an electric motor, as they are doing on the Camry for 2007, for the Highlander as well. The power would be plenty for most people, and the gas mileage would be fabulous. Combining a six cylinder with an electric motor so that you can have the punch of a V-8 is not what we need, especially with gas prices going up. Let's face it, we have been programmed to think $2.40 is a good deal on gas, so the auto companies should be required to make vehicles that give true good gas mileage, not those unrealistic EPA numbers. As you can see, I am frustrated with the whole mess, and I bet I am not the only one. Jeff
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    Very valid point and I think sales attest to this sentiment. IMO though the HH was just a tagalong to the Rx400h which was the real vehilce being highlighted here. Lexus buyers are actually interested in V8 power and handling. They are getting a V8 SUV with FE values in the mid 20's. The HH was added along in order to increase volume and maybe to test the waters in the Toyota market.

    The Highlander is due for a revival this time next year and I wouldn't be surprised if the standard engine is the 3.5L 268 hp one in the RAV, camry, Avy, ES350, etc.

    But I also wouldnt be surprised if the base system is the 2.4L +HSD with ~190 HP and FE values in the mid 30's. The 4c Highlander is dead since the RAV 4c takes it's place, not to mention the V6 RAV which is a rocket.
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